vol 6 #177
Alternative healing Rav Sternbuch vol six 177 yd The contemporary rabbis dispute the status of alternative healing that originated from idolatry from India and China and has spread to chareidim in Iisrael and outside of Israel in recent time. Some prohibit to heal with these techniques while oth permit claiming that these involve are simply using natural forces that exist in nature which were unknown to us but were known only to idolaters of India and China some of them being revealed to us in recent time and they bring proof from the fact that these treatments work! I found in the sefer Heichal Horaah to my good friend Hagaon Rav Mayer Bransdorfer who mentions that his father the author of Hakaneh Bosem that initially .told him that these alternative medical treatments work only through natural processes therefore he permitted people to go to these therapists for treatment however later he heard from others that these treatments. Involved unnatural forces which causes many concerns and henceforth did not permit treatments except to those who were in the midst of treatment and felt that the treatments were working that they could finish the course of treatment". As far as myself I do not posken as to whether it is permitted or prohibited butI only request that the therapists of these treatments hang up signs in their clinics that the treatments they do is entirely natural I will explain the reason for this In my view the matter depends on whether the treatment is natural even if people aren't certain but they feel it might be then there is no prohibition of magic (kishuf)
Have any of these Poskim defined "Natural". Poison Mushrooms are natural. Many of these "cures" are at best useless and at worst harmful. Given the Science we use in Medicine, there is little doubt the Rambam would not have taken such a sciolistic approach to such a grave question
ReplyDeleteI asked Rav Bleich of YU .this question, he said it depends on whether there is scientific evidence to support it. Eg acupuncture is supported and hence permitted. I saw later that he bases this on the Moreh nevuchim.
ReplyDeletedoesnt help with non natural cures hear rav tendler rav sternbuch say the same
ReplyDeleteA shaman healer who uses spirits or energy from another realm, eg native American healer....
ReplyDeleteIn any case, pikuah nefesh if they can heal it is good.
p[kuach nefesf isnt good against avoda zara
ReplyDeleteplease define avoda zara.
ReplyDelete"while oth permit claiming that these involve are simply using natural forces that exist in nature which were unknown to us but were known only to idolaters of India and China some of them being revealed to us in recent time and they bring proof from the fact that these treatments work!"
ReplyDeleteExcept the treatments don't work despite all the anecdotal evidence. The idolaters themselves admit they are dealing with supernatural forces. They will say "natural" but they really mean non-man-made, or they are alluding to their beliefs in the (supposed) spiritual energies in nature. So "Bach Flowers" promoters will advertise that their "remedies" work naturally- but they actually believe there are super-natural energies that they can "extract" and bottle. Even openly spiritual systems like Reiki are advertised as natural.
It's all phony baloney, and it's best if Torah Jews avoid such nonsense and rely only on proven medicine, תפילה and מעשים טובים.
rav Belsky wrote
ReplyDeleteTo understand this matter fully, we need to first examine the essential difference between Avodas Hashem and, lehavdil, avodah zarah, idolatry. The central theme in all forms of avodah zarah, ancient and modern, is the mystery and power of the unknown, which reflects the inability of a human being to control the forces to which human existence is subject. In every case, the worshippers are required to surrender to the inexplicable. The emphasis is on the enigmatic and unpredictable nature of the world, combined with the idea that loyalty to a particular force can be proven through peculiar, perverse and even barbaric rites. Such a demonstration of loyalty was intended to win the favor of these so-called benefactors.
There was a time when physical sickness was treated by the Navi. People would go to the Navi to cure them. there is a statement in Tenach (i forget the exact source) which says that people are using medicines to treat the illness instead of the navi. This was revolutionary at the time - but i don't know if it was considered assur then>?
ReplyDeletethere is a rmban in becukosai that talks about this issue
ReplyDeleteHere’s from Proverbs, our Torah, on bodily health:
ReplyDelete“Patience results in much understanding; Impatience gets folly as its portion. A calm disposition gives bodily health; Passion is rot to the bones” (Proverbs 14:29-30).
משלי פרק יד פסוק ל
חיי בשרים לב מרפא ורקב עצמות קנאה
מלבי"ם משלי פרק יד פסוק ל
חיי בשרים לב מרפא, מוסב למעלה במ"ש וקצר רוח מרים אולת, אומר מי שמרים ציורי הקנאה שמקנא לכבודו על הלב. מלבד האולת נגד החכמה הוא משחית א"ע, אחר שהלב מרפא חיי בשרים, שחיי הבשר ורפואתו אם יחלש כחו, הוא תלוי בלב, כשהלב אמיץ וחזק משלח מעינותיו בנחלים ירוצו בשטף ע"י העורקים וישקו הבשר ויחיו אותו, וע"כ מי שמרים קנאה אל הלב לא לבד שמכלה הבשר כי גם מרקיב העצמות, ויכלה גופו, וכמ"ש מכל משמר נצור לבך כי ממנו תוצאות חיים:
משלי פרק ד פסוק כג
מכל משמר נצר לבך כי ממנו תוצאות חיים:
23More than all that you guard, guard your mind, For it is the source of life. (Proverbs 4:23)
Here’s from Proverbs, our Torah, on bodily health:
ReplyDelete“Patience results in much understanding; Impatience gets folly as its portion. A calm disposition gives bodily health; Passion is rot to the bones” (Proverbs 14:29-30).
משלי פרק יד פסוק ל
חיי בשרים לב מרפא ורקב עצמות קנאה
מלבי"ם משלי פרק יד פסוק ל
חיי בשרים לב מרפא, מוסב למעלה במ"ש וקצר רוח מרים אולת, אומר מי שמרים ציורי הקנאה שמקנא לכבודו על הלב. מלבד האולת נגד החכמה הוא משחית א"ע, אחר שהלב מרפא חיי בשרים, שחיי הבשר ורפואתו אם יחלש כחו, הוא תלוי בלב, כשהלב אמיץ וחזק משלח מעינותיו בנחלים ירוצו בשטף ע"י העורקים וישקו הבשר ויחיו אותו, וע"כ מי שמרים קנאה אל הלב לא לבד שמכלה הבשר כי גם מרקיב העצמות, ויכלה גופו, וכמ"ש מכל משמר נצור לבך כי ממנו תוצאות חיים:
משלי פרק ד פסוק כג
מכל משמר נצר לבך כי ממנו תוצאות חיים:
23More than all that you guard, guard your mind, For it is the source of life. (Proverbs 4:23)
BSD
ReplyDeleteThe "teshuvah" was apparently ghost-written by a relative of the Rov, being related as well to a family member who practices such New-Age (not "alternative") methods.
The multiple and severe shailos involved, ranging from Ain Misrapin Min HaMinnim to Kishuf, to Sakonoh and Gezel related concerns,.were clearly either not presented altogether, or improperly presented - to put it charitably.
Thus, this printed statement attributed to Rav Shternbuch is not much more than a response to a meaningless and deceptive "shailah," a shailah itself omitted and undocumented.
To anyone familiar with the very serious issues involved, this response is quite simply an embarrassment.
I suggest it be removed asap, and perhaps replaced with something useful in its place.
'proven medicine'??? At one time they used to put radium balls on nasal polyps. They would put it in the upper throat. I have an aunt in law that accidentally swallowed it and was charged for the cost of the radium. (She died shortly after!)
ReplyDeletePoint is, modern medicine is constantly changing . What is proven today doesn't work tomorrow or is proven to have such side effects that it is not used tomorrow.
https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/general/1308773/alternative-medicine-halacha-review.html
ReplyDelete