There is currently a debate taking place from opposite sides of the globe between Rabbi Kennard ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
The discussion started when Rabbi Jeremy Lawrence announced his returning to London thereby leaving his post at the Great Synagogue in Sydney, the largest of its kind and one of the biggest shuls in Australia. Rabbi Kennard wrote a piece in the Australian Jewish News encouraging the decision-makers the Great Synagogue to consider non-Chabad Modern Orthodox Rabbis for this position.
Rabbi Schochet took it upon himself to respond to this article and wrote how Chabad Rabbis take on their community "akin to marriage": http://www.collive.com/show_
This prompted Rabbi Kennard to respond with his article titled "Chabad is not the only way" and noted the silence from every Chabad Rabbi around the world with regard to the "custody case in a European city where the Chabad director insists on remaining neutral in a conflict that pits good against evil" (The Schlesinger twins in Vienna).
Rabbi Schochet in turn responded with an accusation of misinterpreting the facts, which Rabbi Kennard denies and provides the sources. It is interesting to note that Rabbi Schochet omitted to refer to the aforementioned custody case.<
The debate has reached a standstill in that Rabbi Schochet has refused to contribute to the AJN because he accuses them of bias ( http://www.collive.com/show_
I believe the Daas Torah blog to be totally unbiased in its moderation of comments and look forward to reading people's thoughts.
I would obviously side with R' Kennard, since I have known him from my teens. But negios aside, there are some countries where Chabad is the only orthodoxy available. That is not always a good thing - in fact it is a bad thing. But they are the most motivated to send shlichim to far away and dangerous countries, eg Russia, Ukraine , S. America.
ReplyDeleteI took exception when I saw Rabbi Schochet snub people from the US and Modern orthodox when they approaced him to welcome him when he made an appearance at Limmud a couple of years ago. I hope he is not representatve of the Chabad. If he is tben I do not feel we should employ Chabad Rabbis in the United Syngague
ReplyDeleteFunny. I was at Limmud then. I came to his talk expecting to attack him, as I have strong reservations about some of his views and I told him so. But his presentation was strong and balanced. I ended up really admiring the guy. He was exceptionally warm to me after. Besides doesn't he have one of the fastest growing United Synagogues? Maybe it is your bias against Chabad.
DeleteI always had the greatest respect for Chabad. It is true they go where others don't to far away places where they try to save lost souls. This I commend,
ReplyDeletebut I fail to understand is that they dont practice what they preach. There
are two little lost souls in Vienna. The
Rabbi there has had them hidden in his school for two years and they have
failed to thrive in his care. Witnesses
have said they don't speak and have
been seen not even wearing Kippot
What home life do they have without a
mother. Who lights the Shabbat
candles in tbeir home? It is unnatural
for children to be brought up in a
jewish home without their mother,
unless she is dead. Chabad can't
expect respect when they don't give it
or gives what suits them. Until tbey
help resolve the issue and help to
bring Sammy and Benji's mother back
into their lives Chabad do not deserve
any respect. It is not chabad rabbis
who can save the souls of these two
boys it is their mother. Chabad may like to give kosher food to travellers, let Beth Alexander feed her own children in peace so that they may prosper!
It is as unnatural for little children to be brought up without a father in their home, without a father making kiddush for them, as much as the reverse.
DeleteYour comment is totally irrelevant and fails to address this injustice. Are you advising people to just shrug and say this is just another injustice? Please keep your comments helpful and relevant or else don't comment at all.
Deleteeveryone is entitled to their opinion, the facts remain in a 32 page report in the Vienna court system. This is a civil case and the civil court has jurisdiction and this is their verdict. The Austrian people have placed their trust in their courts regarding civil matters, We can debate the halachic justice of this for many more years to come. Beth needs the right lawyer for the right job. If not now, when?
DeleteGila, as stated in British parliament, the fault does not lie with lawyers, but with the corruption in the judiciary. No lawyer can fight within a corrupt system against the corrupt system.
DeleteAs for any legitimacy of the Austrian courts, they lost that when they effectively denied all contact between the mother and her children for no good readon. Who cares what lies they wrote in that 32 page report.
Gila, you seem to have a surprisingly great deal of faith in the Austrian legal system, which appears to be somewhat over the top. All legal systems make mistakes and many wrong judgments are pronounced because judges have been 1) bribed or influenced, or 2) because of their lack of knowledge of a subject, particularly in family courts, where judges have no formal training in either child development or abuse. That's why we have courts like the European Court of Human Rights. In the case at hand, the casual observer might assume that both 1) and 2) played important roles.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteKol hakavod. Finally someone says it as it is.
Delete'Truth will eventually bear out' - be careful what you wish for! The truth doesn't bode very well as far as chabad is concerned
DeleteHow can anyone comment on the case knowing only the particulars the mother chooses to share? What is known to me, and I am in no way partial to any side - is that the judge and courts forbade chabad - and its director - from sharing any knowledge or communication with the mother. Why the mother chooses to wage a smear campaign against chabad is not understood. Does she think it will thus garner more sympathy from the world wide audience?
ReplyDeleteBy smear campaign, you mean, asking why rabbi biderman is involving himself in the court case in favor of the father? I'm afraid rabbi biderman and chabad have launched their own smear campaign. We are only making it more public by discussing it here.
DeleteI have personal knowledge of the case. Rabbi Biderman is not not involving himself in the case. Facts, people. Unless you have facts that are backed up with names/telephone numbers, it's all hearesay - a very convenient one for all people with an anti - chabad agenda- but nonetheless, lies.
DeleteSarah, ask rabbi biderman to send you his voluntary statement to the court from May 2012. I am sure he will have no problem confirming this for you.
DeleteSarah,
DeleteIt is very easy to dismiss substantive arguments and proofs with "you're anti chabad" or " you have an anti chabad agenda".
This is a story of two human beings, children, who are being destroyed. Kindly, answer on point. Your projections are irrelevant here, and only serves to show how you don't take the core issue seriously.
Why do chabad rabbis stick together even when there is a bad sheep amongst their flock. Why doesnt anyone of them stand up to be counted. Can any of them call
ReplyDeletethemselves leaders and allow a certain Rabbi's behaviour regarding the Schlesinger twins to bring down their good reputation? They must call on
him to account! If his actions are right let him prove it!
it is not the courts that have said the mother cannot go to the kindergarten. its the father as he has the custody. I suggest you get your facts right.
ReplyDeleteThese poor little boys have been traumatised and no one seems to care. Everyone is carrying on like they are doing so well whwn clearly they are not.
Evwtyone should remember children are not children forever and sooner or later they will be able to make up their own minds. it could all backfire on the father if then he will lose out for good
How can anonymous say that Chabad aren't implicated when R Biderman wrote a statement for the court saying the boys were doing well. Can he explain why they dont talk in any language? What recent professional assessments and pyshological assessments have been done to explain their lack of development? Who should take the blame now for the state the awful boys are in? Surely not the mother!
ReplyDeleteIf a school is requested by court to report the progress of one its students, it is legally compelled to respond to the subpoena.
DeletePaul, you are correct. The school also need to be honest in their reporting. They say the children are developing well. Is this actually the case??? You are also misleading people, as rabbi biderman has also submitted his own voluntary statements to the court (under oath) in favor of the father. Let's face the facts and not omit them when they are inconvenient.
DeleteSo your disagreement is with the report the school wrote? They wrote positive attributes and you are demanding they should have written negative? Frankly I'll take the opinion of the child's progress in school from the school administrators over the objections of some third-party on the internet's insistence more negativity should have been written up.
DeleteSame with Rabbi Biderman. If he gave a positive report I'll take his assessment over some random anonymous internet posters demand for more negativity in his report.
Paul, you should try visiting planet earth from time to time!
DeleteWhere is Rabbi Bidermans alleged statement?
DeleteSarah, why don't you email rabbi biderman and ask him to send it to you. Tell him it is the voluntary statement he made to the court in May 2012.
DeletePaul - never heard of suppressing facts to produce the desired impression?
Deleteplanet - It doesn't make sense to accuse someone of something and then ask someone else to get the evidence. If you accuse someone of something YOU should have the evidence.
DeleteLet's look at the reverse. Suppose you email rabbi biderman and he confirms to both you and daas Torah that no such statement exists. Then you could post here how much misinformation is being presented. That would strengthen your argument. Instead, you are presenting a strange argument (a bit like nossons strange blog on colors!) to avoid confirming whether this statement exists. Seek the truth if genuinely care about it.
DeleteEven if someone posted up rabbi bidermans statement here in all its glory, the people in bidermans camp would not believe it anyway "coming from an anonymous poster". Therefore, it makes sense for Sarah, who claims to be in the know, to email daas Torah under her real name, denying no such statement exists. It doesn't look very good for her argument if she refuses to do this if she believes it to be the truth.
DeleteThe courts have not forbidden the school from communicating with the mother; the father has forbidden and the school has chosen to go along with that rather than challenge him. A movement that believes in spreading "goodness and kindness" in all areas seems to have given up on its role in this case.
ReplyDeleteAnd the reaction of the above poster (who posted anonymously - moderator please note) is typical of the response from every Chabadnik who has commented privately or publicly - it's nothing to do with Chabad, there's nothing that we can do, etc, etc. This is what I referred to in my article that caused so much consternation; why cannot Chabad say "one of our representatives has done something wrong"? Why must they always defend the indefensible?
James Kennard:
DeleteIf a custodial parent instructs his child's school not to communicate regarding the child with anyone other than himself, the school as a matter of law is obligated in following the custodial parents instructions to the child's school. It would be a violation of the law for the school to communicate about the child with anyone the custodial parent instructed it not to and thus the school's hands are tied by the law in this regard.
Either way it doesn't make sense. If it is genuinely the father who is blocking the mother from accessing the school (which I am not convinced is the case) why would rabbi biderman give the father so much honor and respect in his shul by asking him to daven mussaf?
DeleteSo now we are simply down to being upset over the father getting musaf? Should the shul flog him 39 times too?
DeleteNo one has suggest we flog him. It would be nice if rabbi biderman asked the father if he could allow the mother to play a part in the children's lives. Asking him to do mussaf is a positive action to honor Schlesinger.
DeleteHave you prayed in the aforementioned shul? Have you heard him daven mussaf? Why are we believing everything some anonymous people choose to write?
DeleteSarah, if you are genuinely interested in finding out the truth, you can easily do so by contacting rabbi biderman. The statements above that you are bringing into question, are easily verifiable by him. Let's look to find the truth not use diversion tactics on such serious matters.
DeleteRabbi Kennard, I have the utmost respect for you, supporting a young mother who loves her children above all. You will know what kind of person Beth is from the time when you knew her as a teenager - a lovely, loving, caring, conscientious and perhaps at the beginning naive young woman who, sadly, trusted a young man from Austria enough to believe his tales of loving her and wanting to "protect" her in (dangerous??) Vienna by marrying and living with her (presumably) for ever. That his personality was not conducive to married life or being a parent will have been obvious to a young woman in love. Reality sadly taught her otherwise. And you, as a mentor from her formative years and with a great deal more experience of life than either Beth or the man she so unfortunately married, have assumed this important role of analyst of the situation, as well as giving her great moral support. It's clear that her children now find themselves in a system (Chabad) in Austria which harbours individuals for whom honesty and compassion are not highly rated.
DeleteI have asked around. the father has never davened musaf.
Deletesometimes, he davens shacharis, until shema
Sarah, even if what you are saying is true, why would he be honored in Chabad Rabbi Biderman's Shul? Doesn't this give a message of endorsement to this man?
DeleteThe truth will definitely bear out. These two boys are clearly suffering without their mother. They will probably never speak and remain very disturbed until the father sees sense and lets he properly into their lives. He needs now to put the past behind him and put his boys first and let the mother be a major part of the boys life. He owes it to Sammy and Benji!
ReplyDeleteChabad should not be protecting and honouring a man who is selfish and doesn't care about the welfare and happiness of his children. The Rabbis should be helping the father to see sense instead of honoring him and giving him mitzvot! What message are
ReplyDeletetbey sending? Who do they think they are impressing?
Lets get this right the court has not forbidden the school. The father has forbidden the school. Doesn't Rabbi Biderman have any self respect that he lets Schlesinger walk all over him. Schlesinger should be honoring the Rabbi. Not the other way round. Why is Biderman letting this happen. Does Schlesinger know something about Biderman that we don't? Perhaps enquiries can be made!
ReplyDeleteAnonymous, as you are so clearly in the picture, perhaps you could explain why the father is frequently honoured in Rabbi Biderman's shul by being called up to the Torah and leading the Mussaf service on Shabbat? Or is that part of the truth you would rather not bear out?
ReplyDeleteNo one is doubting that there are some excellent Chabad Shluchim around the world who genuinely care about Judaism and Jewish people.
ReplyDeleteHowever, it is also realistic to acknowledge that statistically there will always be some rotten apples in the bunch whose intentions and actions are less than pure (to say the least!). A quick google search on Chabad in Australia paints a very uncomfortable picture and even London has had its own Chabad abuse scandal fairly recently.
Why is it then, that Rabbi Schochet marvels at the International Chabad movement but fails to note its highly relevant shortcomings. Not only that, but he joins all the other Chabad Rabbis globally in being silent when their own colleagues have been accused and subsequently found guilty of heinous crimes. How many more times do we need to watch the cover-ups of abuse by Chabad Rabbis until someone senior in Chabad speaks out. Unless something is done to bring these Rabbis to account, more and more people will call themselves Chabad Rabbis and abuse their position of trust/authority and further destroy the Chabad reputation.
I don't hear Rabbi Schochet calling for a fair hearing for the lives and welfare of the Schlesinger twins. I don't hear any other Chabad Rabbi calling for justice in this case either. Instead, we hear the voices of Rabbi Kennard, the British Board of Deputies and British Government MPs:
http://helpbeth.org/british-parliament-14th-january-2014-highlights-and-discussion/
http://helpbeth.org/statement-from-board-of-deputies/
http://helpbeth.org/jewish-telegraph-27-12-2013/
http://helpbeth.org/australian-jewish-news-article-06-06-2013/
Finally, I leave you with a message taken from the Chabad.org website: http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/36226/jewish/About-Chabad-Lubavitch.htm
"Today 4,000 full-time emissary families apply 250-year-old principles and philosophy to direct more than 3,300 institutions (and a workforce that numbers in the tens of thousands) dedicated to the welfare of the Jewish people worldwide."
What happened to the welfare of the Schlesinger twins?
You are not just a fool but an ignorant one. The Shlesinger twins is a tragedy. So are so many other cases and examples of other Jewish kids denied access to one parent or another. So are the sex abuses that happen internationally from YU through Chabad into Satmar and beyond. So are the countless Agunot out there. You expect Chabad to comment on every individual case? Maybe it is that much more personal to you. But there are literally tens of thousands of desperate Jewish sagas in the world today. You are no more important than any other. They are all tragic. Don't go blaming any one people or organization just because you have some beef with one rabbi. why not bash the whole conference of european rabbis because of some of their members in Austria who are doing nothing. When you can answer that we will know you are honest. If not, then you are as phony as the rest of them.
DeletePlease see my posts below.
DeleteRichard Honest Reporting,
Delete"You are not just a fool but an ignorant one."
Is that your opening sentence in your response to defend Chabad? What does this say about you and your character. Where is your caring, sensitivity and consideration for these two young boys?
First of all, I have no 'sides'.
ReplyDeleteOn the one hand, I am, within my own limited means, a supporter of Chabad as I have found its local rabbonim to be honourable, decent people who live truly altruistic lives. They have been there for me within my times of need. I personally do not think Chabad is the only way, or even the optimal way, for every community and every Jew. It certainly is not my derech (I am proud of my family's and my shul's litviche minhagim and our focus on halachah and talmud rather than Tanya, Kaballah or aggadatah). But that doesn't mean Chabad's focus is wrong or that I cannot learn from them or that I cannot congratulate them for the wonderful job they do in kiruv and in supporting communities (although I do find that sometimes this 'support' can be a bit overwhelming, particularly for small shrinking communities and on occasions some Chabad rabbonim could have handled the situation better). It is therefore most regrettable that Rabbi Kennard's quite interesting and enlightening first article about the failure of Australian Jewry to produce and retain 'home-grown' rabbonim (a problem London faces too) descended into an all-out attack on the Lubavitch way of life. However, I have been assured by people 'close to the situation' that Rabbi Kennard is an honourable rav without a personal interest in the now-vacant post. I suspect the press was just stirring things up in a way only they really can.
On the other hand, I participated in a demonstration outside the Austrian embassy in London in the pouring rain, as I saw injustice. If history has taught us any lessons, it's that Jews particularly shouldn't remain silent when they see an injustice. I don't know any more about the Schlesinger case than has been presented in the media, but I do feel there is an inherent injustice in depriving a mother of custody of her children. You seem to suggest there is another side to the story. If so, please share with the daas torah audience so that we may better understand what is happening. If Chabad has been prohibited by court order from communicating with the mother or facilitating the permitted meetings between mother and children, please explicitly say so (as you seem to be closer to this than me, your word is sufficient). Until I have heard someone categorically state this is the case, the only side being presented is that of the mother and in the absence of her being contradicted, I have no reason not to believe her view that Chabad may be able to help facilitate a solution to this heartbreaking problem. It does appear that the Vienna community (not just Chabad Vienna) has rallied around their own. I fear my own community would be equally unfair to a foreign mother under similar circumstances, but I pray I am very wrong.
I personally think the Help Beth campaigners have every right to question why the Vienna community, including Chabad, is not doing all they can to help. However, I think this has a limit. Aligning themselves to the anti-Chabad brigade risks undermining the tremendous support they have in the UK and elsewhere. I really fear their campaign is at risk of being at-best diluted with irrelevancies (why should the campaign be concerned about the choice of rav in Australia??) and at-worst hijacked by the anti-Chabad brigade. That would be tragic and counter-productive.
There is as much an inherent injustice to deprive a father of custody of his children.
DeleteThat discussion is totally irrelevant here. Please stick to the topic.
DeleteThis is very well said. Adrian and co would do well to pay attention to this:
DeleteI personally think the Help Beth campaigners have every right to question why the Vienna community, including Chabad, is not doing all they can to help. However, I think this has a limit. Aligning themselves to the anti-Chabad brigade risks undermining the tremendous support they have in the UK and elsewhere. I really fear their campaign is at risk of being at-best diluted with irrelevancies (why should the campaign be concerned about the choice of rav in Australia??) and at-worst hijacked by the anti-Chabad brigade. That would be tragic and counter-productive.
I don't think the HelpBeth campaign is involved in the Australia debate at all. The campaign was brought as an example in it. Nothing more than that.
DeleteJason, yet again you are avoiding the very simple questions with your excuses. As long as these questions remain unanswered, you are fuelling the anti-chabad brigade yourself. Don't blame the messenger because you don't like the message.
Delete. Beth is just using Chabad as a convenient way to get more publicity
DeleteI have seen the children and clearly they are developmentally delayed - but they appeared to me that way also when in the care of the mother.
Goldie, are you saying that the father is correct in denying the mother all visitation? Are you saying that rabbi biderman is correct in supporting the fathers arkoyos case? Are you saying that rabbi biderman is correct in honoring the father in shul and denying the mother all access to the kindergarten? Are you saying that chabad are correct to stand by rabbi biderman just because he is chabad?
DeleteLet's not confuse the real issues and address the fundamental questions.
Unbiased, it is a very simple non-political question: why is chabad in Vienna working against the mother and why is no other chabad rabbi speaking out. Don't politicize a very simple issue.
ReplyDeleteLet's be crystal clear. I am extremely pro the Help Beth campaign. I stood in the freezing cold and wet and caught flu while demonstrating for her rights outside the Austrian embassy. I would do so again and again. I would personally donate the entire cost of each visitation. I think the situation is absolutely shocking. I'm pretty sure the father's family / community is pulling all kinds of strings which, if happened in the UK, would probably lead to front-page exposés, judicial reviews, political interventions and resignation / sacking of judges.
DeleteFurthermore, as I made clear in my post above, I think the specific Chabad rabbonim in Vienna may well be able to do more (my question above is for someone from Chabad Vienna to authoritatively state they are prohibited by court order from helping Beth, and if they cannot do that, to step up and do what they can to help). I'm not defending Chabad Vienna. I am certainly not defending Austria (I have many reasons to hate that country).
But this whole "simple issue" (as you call it) has become politicised not because of my comments but because of its conflation with an all-out attack on Chabad globally. I am very concerned that the Help Beth campaign is at risk of being hijacked. I'm not saying Chabad is perfect by any means (which organisation - religious or otherwise - is?), but shifting the focus onto anti-Chabad sentiments is not helping Beth's situation. It risks diluting the key message and reducing the circle of potential support for her legitimate campaign. And that helps no-one.
All I want is for those two young, fragile boys to be back where they belong, which is with their mother. Politicising the situation is the last thing anyone needs.
This became politicized a long time ago when rabbi biderman supported the father in his court case. (Not sure why he endorsed arkoyos over a rabbinic solution, but that is a different discussion.) To suddenly pipe up now and claim it is being political is lunacy. No chabad rabbi has ever publicly supported the helpbeth campaign so I don't know how you are suggesting this is somehow making them not want to help now.
DeleteIt is understood that Rabbi Biderman is coming to England in the near future. Perhaps he would be kind enough to meet with Beth's supporters and discuss his position with them
ReplyDeleteAfterall, whatever has happened between the parents. We are dealing with two young innocent children here and it is the duty of the Jewish communities in Austria and eslewhere to make sure that their lives ars not destroyed. If Rabbi Biderman can confirm a date when he is coming to the Uk we can set up a meeting with him as this situation regarding the Schlesinger twins cannot continue as it is.
I have no opinions of my own as far as chabad is concerned, but it looks to me like rabbi biderman and rabbi schochet are legitimizing and furthering the anti chabad campaign more than anyone else.
ReplyDeleteRabbi Kennard should be publically commended for his unfailing support of Beth, but more importantly the two little boys. Why should he put his neck on the line. Because he believes that what is happening to the boys is cruel and Chabad seem to be condoning it.
ReplyDeleteWe need more Rabbis like Rabbi Kennard who is standing up for what is right!
Wrong CV it is about what is right for the children. The children need their mother in their lives and fhe father is denying them their human basic right. Its so sad that he puts himself first! This is not the action of a good father!
ReplyDeleteOn this basis alone the court should relook at the case immediately. Its time for the father to stop playing with Beth's visiting and give her more. The world will not defend this father, nor will they defend Chabad, whilst two children are being made to suffer!
Why are Chabad sitting back whilst the father is trying financially to drive Beth out of vienna making her pay such high maintenance and 50 euros for each handover? Does he think fhe world is blind? Chabad collect plenty of momey to help to finance traval across the world for weddings and conferences in Crown Heights.Perhaps they can give sone of this money to Beth to cover the fathers high financiak demands. This is surely something Chabad, can do at the very least!
ReplyDeleteSo is this an attack Rabbi Shochet platform, an attack Chabad platform or a Beth Alexander platform and the other two are just being attacked to promote an agenda (a worthwhile one of course).
ReplyDeleteNot at all. It started with an article about the lack of non-Chabad Rabbis in Australia, as one of the few MO rabbis was leaving. Rabbi Shochet took that as an attack on Chabad in general, and responded with an article attacking non-Chabad and claiming Chabad as inherently superior. In the response to that the HelpBeth campaign was brought as an example of a situation where Chabad worldwide supported a Chabad rabbi doing the obviously wrong thing simply because of his affiliation.
DeleteJason, don't cloud the issue. Rabbi schochet waded into this debate on his own free will. He took it upon himself to respond to an excellent article written by rabbi Kennard. Why is it bashing him to debate on a fair public forum some of these discussion points? I don't think it is a chabad bashing forum either. There are some very fair questions being put to chabad and they are choosing to ignore them. You are making excuses and trying to avoid the real issues. Jason, don't make this into something it isn't.
DeleteThis forum is discussing Beth's plight. Schochet was debating Kennard on a Chabad issue. What does that have to do with Beth's plight? Because Kennard brought it up in his article? How stupid is that? Are we really saying that Beth's plight is all because of Chabad? Are we really saying that one Rabbi has all the sway over all the courts in the land? How absurd is that?
DeletePlease see my posts below.
DeleteI thoroughly commend the stand you are taking Rabbi Kennard. I hope that David Liddington Minister for Europe is being kept updated especially regarding the state of the boys. It should also be reported to him how Beth is being drained financially to pay maintenance for her sons when she is being denied any rights for no good reason. This case needs thorough investigation!
ReplyDeleteThe problem is with men is that they think a problem will disappear if they ignore it. They are wrong. This problem regarding the welfare of two little boys will not go away until it is resoved. The father needs to be made to realise thar in his fight against Beth he is destroying his sons. If he respects any Rabbi then that Rabbi should make Schlesinger see sense or he should be excommunicated.!
ReplyDeletecan we see the 32 page report upon which the Austrian court based its decision?
ReplyDeleteGila, why don't you ask Mr Schlesinger if you can see it, then tell us what it says. I look forward to hearing exactly what justification they have for denying all contact between this mother and her children.
DeleteHow do you know it is a 32 page report? The point is that these boys are failing to thrive!
DeleteThe courts have denied Beth s appeal asking for assessment s to be done. Even if we saw the original judgement it cannot be relied upon because there was no good reason to take the boys away from Beth. There is no reason for Beth to have such limited visitation without any overnight stays. The problem here is that there is no sense to anything. No one seems to care about the boys except their mother and she is being attacked from every side. All she wants is to love nuture and raise her boys which is no different to all of us. Beth Alexander is a good capable loving mother, probably better than most. Why can't she be given the chance to help her ailing under developed sons?
no anonymous comments!
ReplyDeleteI am a believer of free speech. If people do not wish to answer very important questions put to them, then I believe we should be allowed to publicly say so. I am not a believer in coverups or silence when everyone around is crying out against an injustice on this scale. This is not a political issue, but a humanitarian one. Those people who chose to play politics over the welfare of the children, repulse me.
ReplyDeleteChabad follows the money. Always.
ReplyDeleteChabad, yet again, are choosing to blame the victim rather than the perpetrator (who is one of their own).
ReplyDeleteThose saying that the children also need their father, need to be made aware that as I understand it, when Beth had custody the father was permitted to see the children when he wanted. However when Beth lost custody her visitation was very limited, made very expensive (as the father insists on using a third party visitation centre) and visits are often cancelled for very little reason. Furthermore, the father paid no maintenance while Beth had custody despite being a doctor and Beth had been set maintenance at an unreasonably high level, despite working part time (so she she is available for midweek visits) which she pays. Had the father behaved like a reasonable human being at any point and put the welfare of his children above his feelings for their mother at any point, then I would say he deserves a reasonable amount of contact. But he hasn't. So he deserves nothing but contempt - something the Australian Jewish community have not expressed at all.
ReplyDeleteThe Jewish public concerned about this case should demand that both the rabbinic supporters of the mother and the rabbinic supporters of the father reveal exactly how much "compensation" or "contributions" these rabbis or their institutions have received from each parent, or from the parent's supporters.
ReplyDeleteIn my case, not a cent (obviously). I became interested in this case since Beth is a former student of mine, and my interest and concern grew at the realisation of the enormity of the miscarriage of justice that Beth and her children have suffered, coupled with the hillul-hashem-inducing indifference from various sectors of the community who have manifestly failed to practise what they preach. I have no other motivation.
ReplyDeleteR. James Kennard --
ReplyDeleteI asked you a question above, that you've neglected to respond to, in response to your post.
Paul, A school always has a right to say that if you are the sort of parent who insists on cutting the mother out of the child's life to this extent, then you are not the sort of parent for this school. That is what I meant by "challenging" the parent. Furthermore a community has the power to send a clear message to such a father that his behaviour excludes him from being a full member of that community.
DeletePaul, it is unclear which question you are referring to. Please clarify.
DeleteR. Kennard: What do you believe would be a fair resolution to this conflict?
ReplyDeleteInquiry - I don't know the precise answer to that question, but I would hope that the children have the benefit of all fit parents playing a full part in their life and growth.
DeleteWe cannot possibly debate these terms on an anonymous blog forum. Rabbi biderman needs to set up a meeting with the mother, father and a council of independent rabbis to agree a solution.
Deletehttp://m.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1388659/jewish/Jews-in-the-Land-of-the-Waltz.htm
ReplyDeleteRabbi Biderman said:
"Luckily the parents trusted us"
We are now told that the Schlesinger twins have been spotted in Vienna in various settings, but never with a kippot on their little heads.
We are also told that they have no recognition of our basic traditions, which are incumbent on every Jewish household.
What became of the children Rabbi Biderman took from their parents? What is to become of the Shlesinger twins?
Rabbonim, it is your duty to find out! Each and every one of you!
A deeply concerning question is, why would Rabbi Biderman be close to a very cruel man
ReplyDeleteQuestion: Chabad is one man in Austria. There is also a Chief Rabbi. He has a lot of clout with the hierarchy. How come no one is coming after his head?
ReplyDeleteQuestion: Biderman is one man. Does he have that much influence over all the courts in the country right up to the Supreme Court?
Question: Someone talked about the way Beth fell in love with this man who professed his love for her. Does anyone know how Beth met this man? Amsterdam New Years 2008.
Question: Does anyone know the other side of the story?
Question: The Australia debate is one about Chabad. How does that becomes the focal point of Beth Alexander's terrible miscarriage of justice? Why is everyone bashing Chabad because of this? Even if one Rabbi is resposible how does that impact on the whole organization beyond your personal prejudices against Chabad? I get it the family are deeply upset and rightfuly so. But just because her family (and brother in particular) needs to vent somewhere it doesn't mean he should go on a crusade against a whole organization. That is exactly why no one will even look in his direction. The family live in the UK. If I have an issue with one Rabbi in the UK (United Synagogue) am I going to blame the whole United Synagogue for it?
The attitude of the Vienna jewish community towards Beth, a lovely young girl straight out of Cambridge University has been absolutely pyscho to say the least. I think as time has gone on it looks like some people in Vienna who have heard the outrage from other communities worldwide started to offer some help for Beth. We have to ask ourselves why is a jewish community so intent that these two beautiful children should grow up without their loving mother. That does'nt seem a very jewish way at all!! Just what is it with these people. Its like looking at another species of jew we have not come across before. Nobody is trying to bash chabad either, its just what people see for themselves, and chabad cannot take criticism, they think their way is right, that they are more dedicated, they are the ones doing outreach all over the world, but they have to be careful they don't become full of themselves, too arrogant, and thinking communities where they are sent to, revere them. Most importantly when a chabad person turns out to be well, undesirable, they protect that person. Looking in on this tragic saga for Beth, Sammy and Benji it has a hint of the film Mia Farrow starred in called "Rosemary's Baby"!!!!! All very odd, strange and sinister!!
DeleteThe reason I believe Rabbi Biderman Chabad is being blamed is because he has clearly taken the father's side. He has shown this because he has the
ReplyDeletechildren in his school told the court
that the children are doing well
educationally and psychologically.
What qualifications does he have to
make these statements and where are
the full rreports to substitute.
In the absence of any professional
reports the question is why one of the
boys was self harming in the school
and a pychiatrist had to be called and
why the boys have been kept down a
school year?
In the Rabbi Biderman's statement to
the court he also was very emphatic
that Rabbis around the world were
harassing him about this case and
leave should him alone!
It is clear that for some reason he only has his own interests at heart and
demonstrates his siding with the father
as he honours the father in his Shul
and does nothing to help the situation.
In the same way that Biderman is
siding with the father, Chabad are
siding with Biderman as they have not
taken the trouble to investigate the
truth.
Whatever the truth of the rights and
wrongs of the parents as we know they
they aee both bitter and Rabbi
Biderman has made clear his stand
and has nothing to try and help the
situation. He should be at the very
least be making sure that the father
doesn't break the law by playing with
Beth's court ordered visiting and if he
cares about the children in his school
at all, hel would try and impress upon
the father that these children, like all
others, need their mother very much in
their lives.
Is Rabbi Biderman representatve of
Chabad and do Chabad condone his
stance in this situation?
There are a number of questions raised that have been addressed on this forum many times before and are being raised again now, but nevertheless I will try to address them all individually in these posts.
ReplyDeleteCan I begin by expressing my enormous admiration for Rabbi Kennard (I would encourage everyone to give him his full title, rather than just his last name, as it seriously undermines any credibility of your post) in speaking out so bravely against this injustice. As we have seen on this forum, people are too quick to defend the indefensible as a result of political affiliation or simple brainwashing.
jason tanner: “This forum is discussing Beth’s plight. Schochet was debating Kennard on a Chabad issue.”. If you read the original post at the top of this thread, the debate between Rabbi Kennard and Rabbi Schochet resulted in Rabbi Schochet extolled the “uniqueness and beauty of Chabad” and how they “follow the local Beth Din” and that “the basic philosophy of Chabad is to love every Jew, regardless of background”:
http://www.collive.com/pics//28949_358_20532119609871.jpg
I do not understand why Rabbi Schochet wrote this article when Rabbi Kennard was writing purely about the choice of Rabbi in a community in Australia. The fact that Rabbi Schochet took it upon himself to respond, reinforces the global network/brand that Chabad espouse. Rabbi Schochet turned the debate about from local one into a global one covering many wider issues. Therefore is not the case that Chabad in any one community can do their own thing without being part of a global picture. Once this was mentioned by Rabbi Schochet, the global superiority that Rabbi Schochet implies was brought into question by Rabbi Kennard in highlighting the role Chabad have played in Austria. This was conveniently overlooked by Rabbi Schochet in his subsequent response: http://www.collive.com/show_news.rtx?id=29128 This shows that the global Chabad philosophy to love every Jew has broken down here, and instead of holding up his hands admitting to this, Rabbi Schochet decided to ignore it. This is a fundamental part of the debate which should be addressed.
Unbelievably, Rabbi Schochet opts out of the debate because he feels unable to adequately respond in the Australian press. So, now that the debate is being discussed here, on an open forum, why do we not see Rabbi Schochet express his arguments (and having him display his real name like Rabbi Kennard has done)?
To answer the remaining points jason tanner writes “Are we really saying that Beth’s plight is all because of Chabad? Are we really saying that one Rabbi has all the sway over all the courts in the land?”. No, Beth’s plight is not all because of Chabad, but Rabbi Biderman has had a significant involvement in the court case thus creating the current situation notwithstanding his support of the father in Shul which would seem to contradict Rabbi Schochet’s viewpoint above.
I do wish we would separate the R' Kennard/ R'Schochet debate about Chabad from the plight of Beth. R' Kennard's original article was pretty respectful although one has to suspect he has ambitions to the vacant position. R' Schochet's response was ill-advised. The subsequent swapping of letters was such a chillul hashem and did nothing to further ahavas torah. Both rabbonim ought to consider their actions before the yomim noraim.
DeleteI strongly suspect the press had a role in stirring up this hornets' nest. There's a lesson to be learnt there: don't listen to muck-rakers.
Maybe an individual rabbi in Chabad Vienna should have done more, or even was complicit in the suffering. Maybe other Chabad rabbis should put on more pressure and have refused to become involved. But that could be applied to any communal institution. The shul in which I grew up had for years someone with a serious (financial) criminal record on the board and for many years there was a member who was widely known to be in a relationship with his non-Jewish secretary but was allowed to participate in birchas kohanim and was called up while sermons focused on patent shoes... Another shul eventually (after fierce resistance) had to expell another rov for allegedly abusing a congregate. Artscroll allegedly parted company with two of its senior staff who were allegedly involved in an alleged agunah scandal (I really like the word 'alleged'. However, no-one is seriously saying those institutions are entirely totall corrupt and bad.
Let's focus on beth and her kids, not on defaming an organisation that, while clearly not perfect, does a lot of good.
And no, I'm not Chabad at all. I find the focus on mysticism to be at the expense of true lomdus, but as chazal says, shivim panim l'torah.
Even now, rabbi schochet could write a public letter expressing regret at the case of the Schlesinger twins. We are not debating the past, we are debating the here-and-now, yet they still choose to cover up for child sex abusers and colleagues intent on removing children from mothers.
DeleteDovid HaMelech:
ReplyDelete“Chabad is one man in Austria.” – a quick google search suggests otherwise. There are whole team of Chabad Rabbis in Vienna. “There is also a Chief Rabbi. He has a lot of clout with the hierarchy. How come no one is coming after his head?” – This is a debate about Chabad and Rabbi Schochets claim that Chabad is superior. Are you suggesting that actually, Chabad is no worse than the other people you mention? Does that demonstrate superiority???
“Biderman is one man. Does he have that much influence over all the courts in the country right up to the Supreme Court?” – It is undisputed (with the exception of some discredited annonymous posters) that Rabbi Biderman has assisted the father in his court case and honored the father in his Shul. Whether this influenced the court case or not, these are serious questions that he must answer. If he refuses to answer these questions, global Chabad must accept some responsibility for him.
“Does anyone know the other side of the story?” –Many people have invited the father and Rabbi Biderman on this blog and other blogs to tell their side of the story. Why don’t they do this?
“The Australia debate is one about Chabad. How does that becomes the focal point of Beth Alexander’s terrible miscarriage of justice?” – It isn’t. It was an important point in the debate that was attempted to be overlooked. Let’s address all the questions in the debate including this one.
“Why is everyone bashing Chabad because of this?” – Please don’t beat this drum. I suppose it is anti-Semitic, homophobic and racist at the same time. There have been valid questions raised against Chabad, why don’t you just answer the questions?Why do you have such a persecution complex?
“Even if one Rabbi is resposible how does that impact on the whole organization beyond your personal prejudices against Chabad?” – see above.
“I get it the family are deeply upset and rightfuly so. But just because her family (and brother in particular) needs to vent somewhere it doesn’t mean he should go on a crusade against a whole organization. That is exactly why no one will even look in his direction.” – If the family are rightfully upset, why not issue a public message on colive saying that the family are right to be upset with Rabbi Biderman? No one is going on a crusade against a whole organisation apart from Rabbi Schochet and Rabbi Biderman who seem to be doing a great job at ruining the Chabad global brand. To answer your last point, there has been no support from Chabad since this whole campaign started so don’t anyone dare suggest that Chabad are opting out due to negative publicity. That is an ugly excuse which heavily damages any Chabad sympathies you may be getting.
Richard Honest Reporting:
ReplyDelete“The Shlesinger twins is a tragedy. So are so many other cases and examples of other Jewish kids denied access to one parent or another. So are the sex abuses that happen internationally from YU through Chabad into Satmar and beyond. So are the countless Agunot out there. You expect Chabad to comment on every individual case?” – Rabbi Schochet has been trying to argue about the superior nature of Chabad compared to other flavors of Judaism. It looks like you are saying this is not the case and that Chabad are no worse than Satmar etc…? Will you also join me in asking for this part of the Chabad.org website to be taken down:
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/36226/jewish/About-Chabad-Lubavitch.htm
“Today 4,000 full-time emissary families apply 250-year-old principles and philosophy to direct more than 3,300 institutions (and a workforce that numbers in the tens of thousands) dedicated to the welfare of the Jewish people worldwide.”
Other Rabbis join Rabbi Kennard (not to mention the British Board of Deputies) in issuing a strong statement against the injustice in Austria, yet not a squeak has been made by any Chabad Rabbi. I equally condemn all the Chabad Rabbis in Australia and around the world in being silent and covering up the child sex abuse in Australia. I am flabbergasted that you use this as a justification for their behavior to cover up the Schlesinger twins.
If any of these pro-chabad views above are representative of Rabbi Schochet’s, then it is probably just as well he was not considered for the position of Chief Rabbi in the UK.
It is clear ti see why the U.S. do not want Chabad in their Shuls. We see now in Vienna how Rabbi Biderman has no respect for Chief Rabbi
ReplyDeleteEisenberg. If there is no respect between rabbis what is left for the rest of us?
The Chabad rabbis who have concealed facts of sexual abuse around the world are on a par with the Roman Catholic priests and others who did and are doing likewise - abominable specimens of humanity. Coverups are disgraceful, no matter who commits them. Chabad, although it may have certain laudable aspects, tends to live in the past and, as MK Moshe Feiglin has pointed out, "The hareidi way of life in Israel must change." But in Vienna it seems there is nobody like Moshe Feiglin in the Jewish community. Nobody who is prepared to do away with the Schlesinger twins' coverup, risk everything and be a moser, which is the only way to go if anyone really cares about these children and their development. So how about speaking up - SOMEBODY?
ReplyDeleteI'm afraid that the people in Vienna are cowards. They stick together and the only person they speak out about is a pure innocent girl from Britain, a sweet kind lovimg capable mother. None of the Jewish community in Vienna, bar maybe a precious few, have any heart. They call themselves jews!?
ReplyDeleteDoes anybody know what Rabbi Biderman is a professor of, just curious!!
ReplyDeleteI doubt he's a prof, Academic. Did read somewhere that he's supposed to have a PhD but that might be a tall tale. Who knows?
ReplyDeleteYes Maxine, I am wondering what his academic profile is. He seems to be very high up in the academic world re: The Lauder Business School. Quite an achievement along with being a rabbi. I wonder where he is a graduate from?
ReplyDeleteI am neither chabad and have nothing to do with the UK Jewish community. But sitting on the sidelines in LA I am amazed how pitiful this site has become. We used to have intellectual debate on here. Now we have certain people creating all sorts of arguments, disputes, name calling, character assasinations et al. Shame on the lot of you. Especially the instigators, which, if I read correctly, are mostly Beth's family and friends posting under psudonyms.
ReplyDeleteChaim, you have linked your account to a website called 'getcashfast'. Apart from the obvious questions of credibility associated with these websites, you have also posted with the same link on another posting under the name 'Adrian'. It looks like you are guilty of the very things you accuse other posters of.
DeleteI am sorry if you are offended by this debate, perhaps we should all leave Austria to it and let them do whatever they want with the twins. After all, their lives are far less important than the income of a few shluchim. Who cares whether a young woman gets put in a mental home without any basis.
If you don't want to face the issues, don't read the blog! Why are you so offended?
So 'chaim', you're in la? Which part of Austria is that?
DeleteThe Lauder Business School, where Beth used to teach English, has been in the news recently, especially as a group of its students has put a petition on
ReplyDeletewww.change.org/petitions/lauder-business-school-rehire-campus-rabbi-moshe-starik-and-tova-starik
demanding, among other things, the following:
"...we as LBS students can simply not imagine our lives on campus without Rabbi Moshe and Tova Starik guiding, counceling and embracing us through every step of the way. The Stariks have continually represented a "home away from home" for every single one of us.
We are signing this petition in order to ask that the heads of the Jewish family of LBS are not forced away from us."
Hmmm... the word "forced" sticks out a mile! It seems that 2 beloved members of the staff at LBS were fired (we read elsewhere they have 6 children) and the students want them back. Is "force" a word often used by Chabad people? Were the kindergarten teachers in Vienna forced to tell the court untruths about the boys? Is the twins' father not forcing their dear mother to stay away from the poor little mites as much as possible in the hope that he'll eventually drive her out of Austria (which he won't)? I don't like the word "force" and I suspect many Jews are reminded of the terrible times their ancestors had to go through when they hear it. Rabbi Bidermann: could you please tell us why this word is being used by LBS students?
Sounds like very unhappy students missing out on a wonderful couple. Could this have been an 'unfair dismissal'. Good schools keep good people.
DeleteLauder Business School (LBS) is an interesting educational establishment where Beth used to teach. According to its website, it's a tertiary institution in Vienna yet does not appear to have a president/"Rektor" or deans of faculties. Odd.
ReplyDeleteI have taught there and know all the issues you discuss.
ReplyDeleteBe wise with your words and stop your motzie shem rah because you have no idea what the story is.
For all those who are quick to condemn just to satisfy their curiousity, call LBS. It is a transparent university with a proper dean and direct all your questions to him. Before you do so, don't comment
And btw, when have people become so gullible as to believe every thing they read.
ReplyDeleteBoy, do I have a bridge to sell....
Why then did they fire tova starik?
DeleteYes, why? I heard she and her husband were very popular and I can't imagine that if they were doing such a good job, the school would need to fire them. Unless it's slowly going bankrupt and needs to save on staff. But with Ronald Lauder, other wealthy people and the Austrian govt funding it, that seems unlikely. Or were they fired unjustly? Commit a crime? Rabbi Biderman will know. He seems to know everything but say nothing.
DeleteReally? It's all hearsay? We've gotten to an age - and stage- where if we read one blog or post, we've gotten the whole story? No, Esther, it's not enough that you think you know the whole story, now you're projecting all sorts of theories to support your view? Don't you think there might be more dynamics at play here?
Deleterelevant, pray tell, when exactly did Beth teach there?
ReplyDeleteTell us your version of the story then. You seem to know so much. Beth has told hers under her own name, it is only fair you do the same.
ReplyDeleteyou have not answered the question - when has beth taught there?
ReplyDeletePerhaps Edith you can ask the HR department when Beth taught at the university , unless they have no record because she was paid cash. Under the carpet cash payment seems to be the
ReplyDeletenorm in Vienna, even with the Lawyers
Nothing seems straight in Vienna!.
This would never happen in
England or lawyers would be
struck off and big investigations
made, as should happen in this case
on so many levels. If everything that has been done in Vienna is correct, no one should mind if investigations are done especially, as this case involves two young veru vulnerable children!
It is very simple: she should publish her court papers. End of story, and end of all these speculations. She usually likes to publish a lot, right?
ReplyDeleteI second Ruti's request. Beth, we want to see the court papers! Transparency rules!
ReplyDeleteWe don't care about the court papers. We only care about the children, who need their mother in their lives!
ReplyDeleteIf the father thinks he has won, he is
wrong, because the children are
suffering a major loss, their mother,
and the father is showing us, he clearly
does not care. What sort of man Iis he?
I used to be a staunch Beth advocate and believed her story. Now with all these lies, distortions, mud slinging, her campaign has devolved and I am no longer on her side.
ReplyDeletethat is amazing I used to support Dr. Schlesinger until I saw...
DeleteShe would never publish the court papers. Her whole building would collapse.
ReplyDelete@pro to con: who are the people supporting Beth? Those who do not know her, they just know what she is telling in her blog. They have never seen the children, but they believe what the good mother is telling. They do not know the father but are convinced he is cruel and psycho....So, welcome to the club, protocon. good decision
Let's hear the 'official' story from the father. If he feels there are untruths on the helpbeth website, let him make a public statement.
DeleteHe won't do this because we all know what the truth is and the father is too much of a coward to put his lies out in a proper statement. He has to use anonymous comments instead. Pathetic!
WHAT THESE COMMENT PAGES HAVE TRULY SHOWN IS THE EVIL, AND ARROGANCE THIS YOUNG MOTHER HAD TO ENDURE WHILST FIGHTING FOR HER CHILDREN. THESE PEOPLE HAVE NOT JUST APPEARED. THEY WERE THERE MAKING HER LIFE HELL, WHEN SHE HAD NO SUPPORTERS AND SHE WAS ON HER OWN.
ReplyDeleteThe people of Vienna are an absolute disgrace. Why should the children be punished. Why cant both parents play equal roles in their lives.... Its a shame they cannot decide for themselves. They are being made to suffer
ReplyDeleteTo all the fathers supporters on here.. I wonder if any of you grew up with just seeing your mother once a week. I bet the answer is NO..
I cant imagine how these children feel and what makes me more angry is that people on this blog know the children and the family and yet no one has tried to mediate for the sake of the children..
You are all sick and must gain pleasure seeing a mother being torn from her children
You're right Jennifer and Story! court papers, stop making false assumptions about who knows the mother and who doesn't! You have absolutely no idea and are quite possibly one of the repulsive individuals conducting a smear campaign on several fronts.
ReplyDeleteIf you're so convinced you know the truth, write a guest post to Daas Torah under your own name? Or do you secretly know that there is no substance to anything you say?
DeleteI have a funny feeling that franzklammer has morphed into Guest Post...people who have nothing CONSTRUCTIVE to say. Please read P.822 on in Hansard on www.helpbeth.org.
ReplyDeleteYou tube on Rabbi Bidermahttp://www.chabad.org/therebbe/livingtorah/player_cdo/aid/2243631/jewish/Dont-Give-Up.htmn
ReplyDeleteHa ha! Biderman has no credibility anymore, this video just shows him up to be even more of a hypocrite!
DeleteIn this modern world of communication, it is harder to hide bad activities than it used to be. Ev, no one is fooled but you!
I am not fooled by anyone actually and am just presenting visuals for people who want to put a face to a name as I did....ha ha this is ha ha to you and your small mind. I am wondering if anyone has an email address of Biderman???
ReplyDeleteI think we need to start sending our opinions directly to the rabbis, leaders , kindergarten etc...lets flood their inboxes