Most of the discussion is about R' Kamentesky's book Making of Gadol. He was in negotiations for a couple of years with R' Elyashiv to print the second edition, but couldn't get his approval. So he asked R Elyashiv how he went against the Brisker Rov by getting a salary from the Chief Rabbinate in Israel, when the Brisker forbade it. R Elyashiv's body language changed when he was asked that question. He said that it didn't apply to him or that he didnt consider the Brisker to be his Rov. Kamenetsky's brave question was to point out that he needed the book for his parnassah. He also tells a story of r @ Shach who first was doing a stint at a Mizrachi Yeshiva, and the CI told him to leave. But the Brisker said alter, that he wouldn't have asked him to leave - since parnassa was important. Kamenetsky argues that the Brisker Rav was opposed to the Rabbanut since it purported to be a Sanhedrin.
A prominent dayan told me that the Chazon Ish put Haredi rabbonim in the government Beth Din as he felt it was very important and it was he who put Reb Elyashev there.
Before you get in a tizzy - please cite what Brown actually said. Are you claiming that in this area of history there is only one correct understanding and that whatever Brown says is exactly what happened?!
Rav alyashuv was found and appointed by r herzog alone (השקדן( Perhaps your friends mistake was the only time the חזן איש worked for appointment was rav herzog against r harlop whom he felt was a danger to be chief rabbi...עיין שם
Perhaps the Dayan is forgetting / repressing the fact that R' Elyashiv was in his younger days a follower of R Kook and the Religious Zionist movement. Under R Herzog he was a very creative halachist, and he had what some might call illusions of the Grandeur of the Rabbanut - ie that it was the root of the Sanhedrin. his is the direct opposite of the view of the Brisker Rav, who deemed it as idolatry.
Rav Eliashev merely took a job with the rabbanut as a day job for parnassa. Same as you or I may take a job as a cashier clerk in a supermarket, even though we don't necessarily believe in the greatness of cashiering. Rav Eliashev was never a follower of Rav Kook (despite his being mesader at the chasuna) or religious zionism or the rabbunut. He quit his job in the rabbunut in disgust with it after it crossed red lines.
Nor had Rav Eliashev had any illusions of grandeur; quite the opposite in fact. He never sought nor wished fame. Rav Shach thurst it upon him.
@ Joe, you are missing the writings of R Elyashiv during his sting under Rav Herzog. At that point in time he was into the whole RZ ideology. I heard from an older person, that he was threatened by Haredim, saying that he would not be taken seriously if he remained in the RZ world. This actually proves my theory that "Gadlus" and ideology are unrelated. There could be Gedolim, maybe even greater than RYSE who preferred to stay in RZ or modern world, but were simply not given the recognition because of their views.
Another example is R Nebenzahl, who had he stayed in haredi world would certainly be considered one of the gedolei haDor.
"Rav Eliashev was never a follower of Rav Kook (despite his being mesader at the chasuna)". At the time of HaRav Elyashiv's chasseneh, were there no Rabbonim in Yerushalayim except for HaRav Kook? Would you take someone you suspect of "idolatrous" beliefs to be mesader Chupa v'kiddushin? It may be more simple than that. As there is no simmen in the Shulchan Oruch stating that it is forbidden to see something that secular Jews did as positive and with potential for bringing redemption, many Charedim of 60-80 years ago were able to live with the opinions of the Rabbonim who thought that many actions of the Zionists were beneficial. For more information, please see the "Haemek Dovor"'s introduction to Sefer Bereishis
i have spoken to rav kamenesky and he strongly implied that he would go aheah and publish the2nd vol especially after rav elyshiv was nifter. anyone with any update?
I listened to Rav Kaminetsky, and it occurred to me that those who are against the sefer contend that a Gadol is holy from birth, in other words he's born a Gadol, and those of us who were not born Gedolim can never become Gedolim. This smacks of kefira to me! The Gemara clearly states that there is no predetermination as to the tzidkus of a person. It's up to the individual. And as to the chinuch aspect, it's all backwards! We should be teaching that you can overcome mistakes and become great. Otherwise, as soon as you are oiver a single aveira, there's no point in trying anymore. Just give it up. And what about Moshe Rabbeinu, the greatest Gadol of all, who was born with the worst character traits possible and worked on himself until he became anav mikol adam? However, if you tie this issue into the infallibility of 'Da'as Torah', things start to look clearer. A Gadol has to be born that way, because if he made mistakes in his youth (or later), then he's no different than anyone else! And then Choliloh, he might have to admit that he can still make mistakes! But if he was holy at birth, then we are not like him! And of course we have to bow our heads and accept whatever he says - even if it is wrong. Years ago I asked, do tzaddikim do no wrong (they are infallible) or do they sometimes make mistakes that work out for the best anyway, because they are tzaddikim? I brought a proof from Yosef that the latter is true, because it says, "אֵין שַׂר בֵּית-הַסֹּהַר, רֹאֶה אֶת-כָּל-מְאוּמָה בְּיָדוֹ, בַּאֲשֶׁר ה', אִתּוֹ; וַאֲשֶׁר-הוּא עֹשֶׂה, ה' מַצְלִיחַ" If Yosef did nothing wrong, why would Hashem have to be matzliach his acts? But if you say that Yosef made mistakes - he was human - but due to his tzidkus, Hashem made the mistakes work out well. (I can tell personal stories that happened to me that illustrate this, but I think it would be superfluous.) The bottom line is that the Gedolim are human. They were not born Gedolim, and no one has ever become a Gadol without extensively working on himself on all levels. And if by learning about how Gedolim overcame their weaknesses we can be inspired to work on ourselves, it would be a travesty to ban seforim with this type of inspiration.
Translation? What is he saying (in a nutshell)?
ReplyDeleteSorry - a nutshell isn't sufficient and I don't have the time. Perhaps someone else would like to volunteer?
DeleteWhat topic is he addressing, at least?
DeleteMost of the discussion is about R' Kamentesky's book Making of Gadol. He was in negotiations for a couple of years with R' Elyashiv to print the second edition, but couldn't get his approval. So he asked R Elyashiv how he went against the Brisker Rov by getting a salary from the Chief Rabbinate in Israel, when the Brisker forbade it. R Elyashiv's body language changed when he was asked that question. He said that it didn't apply to him or that he didnt consider the Brisker to be his Rov. Kamenetsky's brave question was to point out that he needed the book for his parnassah. He also tells a story of r @ Shach who first was doing a stint at a Mizrachi Yeshiva, and the CI told him to leave. But the Brisker said alter, that he wouldn't have asked him to leave - since parnassa was important. Kamenetsky argues that the Brisker Rav was opposed to the Rabbanut since it purported to be a Sanhedrin.
DeleteIs the video still working?
ReplyDeleteyes - just added another link but the first one clearly is working
DeleteA prominent dayan told me that the Chazon Ish put Haredi rabbonim in the government Beth Din as he felt it was very important and it was he who put Reb Elyashev there.
ReplyDeleteThats a lie... See the new 900 page bio of CI By brown.
DeleteWhy don't u bring this dayans name.
DeleteBefore you get in a tizzy - please cite what Brown actually said. Are you claiming that in this area of history there is only one correct understanding and that whatever Brown says is exactly what happened?!
DeleteRav alyashuv was found and appointed by r herzog alone (השקדן(
ReplyDeletePerhaps your friends mistake was the only time the חזן איש worked for appointment was rav herzog against r harlop whom he felt was a danger to be chief rabbi...עיין שם
The book is not before me but u can find easily with the index.
ReplyDeleteThere is no listing in the index
DeletePerhaps the Dayan is forgetting / repressing the fact that R' Elyashiv was in his younger days a follower of R Kook and the Religious Zionist movement. Under R Herzog he was a very creative halachist, and he had what some might call illusions of the Grandeur of the Rabbanut - ie that it was the root of the Sanhedrin. his is the direct opposite of the view of the Brisker Rav, who deemed it as idolatry.
ReplyDeleteRav Eliashev merely took a job with the rabbanut as a day job for parnassa. Same as you or I may take a job as a cashier clerk in a supermarket, even though we don't necessarily believe in the greatness of cashiering. Rav Eliashev was never a follower of Rav Kook (despite his being mesader at the chasuna) or religious zionism or the rabbunut. He quit his job in the rabbunut in disgust with it after it crossed red lines.
DeleteNor had Rav Eliashev had any illusions of grandeur; quite the opposite in fact. He never sought nor wished fame. Rav Shach thurst it upon him.
@ Joe, you are missing the writings of R Elyashiv during his sting under Rav Herzog. At that point in time he was into the whole RZ ideology.
DeleteI heard from an older person, that he was threatened by Haredim, saying that he would not be taken seriously if he remained in the RZ world.
This actually proves my theory that "Gadlus" and ideology are unrelated. There could be Gedolim, maybe even greater than RYSE who preferred to stay in RZ or modern world, but were simply not given the recognition because of their views.
Another example is R Nebenzahl, who had he stayed in haredi world would certainly be considered one of the gedolei haDor.
"Rav Eliashev was never a follower of Rav Kook (despite his being mesader at the chasuna)". At the time of HaRav Elyashiv's chasseneh, were there no Rabbonim in Yerushalayim except for HaRav Kook? Would you take someone you suspect of "idolatrous" beliefs to be mesader Chupa v'kiddushin?
ReplyDeleteIt may be more simple than that. As there is no simmen in the Shulchan Oruch stating that it is forbidden to see something that secular Jews did as positive and with potential for bringing redemption, many Charedim of 60-80 years ago were able to live with the opinions of the Rabbonim who thought that many actions of the Zionists were beneficial.
For more information, please see the "Haemek Dovor"'s introduction to Sefer Bereishis
i have spoken to rav kamenesky and he strongly implied that he would go aheah and publish the2nd vol especially after rav elyshiv was nifter. anyone with any update?
ReplyDeleteI listened to Rav Kaminetsky, and it occurred to me that those who are against the sefer contend that a Gadol is holy from birth, in other words he's born a Gadol, and those of us who were not born Gedolim can never become Gedolim.
ReplyDeleteThis smacks of kefira to me! The Gemara clearly states that there is no predetermination as to the tzidkus of a person. It's up to the individual.
And as to the chinuch aspect, it's all backwards! We should be teaching that you can overcome mistakes and become great. Otherwise, as soon as you are oiver a single aveira, there's no point in trying anymore. Just give it up.
And what about Moshe Rabbeinu, the greatest Gadol of all, who was born with the worst character traits possible and worked on himself until he became anav mikol adam?
However, if you tie this issue into the infallibility of 'Da'as Torah', things start to look clearer. A Gadol has to be born that way, because if he made mistakes in his youth (or later), then he's no different than anyone else! And then Choliloh, he might have to admit that he can still make mistakes!
But if he was holy at birth, then we are not like him! And of course we have to bow our heads and accept whatever he says - even if it is wrong.
Years ago I asked, do tzaddikim do no wrong (they are infallible) or do they sometimes make mistakes that work out for the best anyway, because they are tzaddikim? I brought a proof from Yosef that the latter is true, because it says,
"אֵין שַׂר בֵּית-הַסֹּהַר, רֹאֶה אֶת-כָּל-מְאוּמָה בְּיָדוֹ, בַּאֲשֶׁר ה', אִתּוֹ; וַאֲשֶׁר-הוּא עֹשֶׂה, ה' מַצְלִיחַ"
If Yosef did nothing wrong, why would Hashem have to be matzliach his acts? But if you say that Yosef made mistakes - he was human - but due to his tzidkus, Hashem made the mistakes work out well.
(I can tell personal stories that happened to me that illustrate this, but I think it would be superfluous.)
The bottom line is that the Gedolim are human. They were not born Gedolim, and no one has ever become a Gadol without extensively working on himself on all levels. And if by learning about how Gedolim overcame their weaknesses we can be inspired to work on ourselves, it would be a travesty to ban seforim with this type of inspiration.
R, Nosson Kamenetsky lecture on the Making of a ban
ReplyDeletehttp://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/731293/Rabbi_Nathan_Kamenetsky/Making_of_a_Ban-_A_Look_At_the_Banning_of_Making_of_A_Godol#