Rav Moshe Sternbuch told me that when dealing with child abuse - that if a rav tells you not to go to the police when it is obvious that one needs to - you should not listen to the rav but to ask another rabbi (if there is no danger to the children by the delay). A clear support for this idea of each individual needing to be responsible to do that which is obviously correct - even if told the opposite by a rabbi - is the following Ba'al HaMa'or. This broadens the obligation to use your seichel and knowledge and focus on doing the right thing. When something is a dvar mishna - clear and obvious - you can not use the excuse that an authority told you not to do the right thing. This is clearly opposed to the idea of blind obedience to authority.
Ba’al ha-Ma’or(Sanhedrin (p. 12a in the Rif:):“If you were to ask: We hold [the prevailing view] that cases of garmi (damages resulting from direct and predictable cause) are liable for court adjudication. Why then do we say that when a judge errs in something stated explicitly in a Mishnah, he simply reverses his ruling but is not responsible for any losses, even if the damage incurred by the litigant due to his error is irrevocable? [For example,] the case of the cow of Bet Menaḥem whose meat can not be returned because R. Tarfon [the judge] had already [caused it to be] fed to the dogs [by those who followed his ruling]. “The answer is: The litigant was negligent. Since the error is in that which is stated explicitly in a Mishnah, the error is obvious, and the litigant should not have relied upon him and should not have acted upon what he was told. He should have questioned [the judge] and demonstrated the error, for this was as obvious as an explicit Mishnah. Therefore it is the litigant who was negligent; the judge’s ruling is superfluous. This is what is meant by: It is as if the judge never issued the ruling; he did nothing at all [to the litigant].”[Translation Rav Nachum Rabinowitz Chakira Magazine #5]
This concept is similar to a parent telling a child to do something obviously wrong. The child is required to disobey. Perhaps that is why some baalei teshuva are more adept at confronting the child abuse problem than others. They are accustomed to resisting their parents' non-Torah observant lifestyles, so it is easier for them to challenge rabbis who clearly err when it comes to child abuse.
ReplyDelete"Rav Moshe Sternbuch told me that when dealing with child abuse - that if a rav tells you not to go to the police when it is obvious that one needs to - you should not listen to the rav but to ask another rabbi (if there is no danger to the children by the delay)."
ReplyDeleteYou seem to be misquoting Rav Shternbuch. If he indeed would have said that, he would have simply said go straight to the cops without asking a rabbi first. But he said a rabbi must be first asked. If he is saying to go rabbi-hopping till you find one that says yes, then he would have said there is no point in going to a rabbi.
Master said...
ReplyDelete"Rav Moshe Sternbuch told me that when dealing with child abuse - that if a rav tells you not to go to the police when it is obvious that one needs to - you should not listen to the rav but to ask another rabbi (if there is no danger to the children by the delay)."
You seem to be misquoting Rav Shternbuch. If he indeed would have said that, he would have simply said go straight to the cops without asking a rabbi first. But he said a rabbi must be first asked. If he is saying to go rabbi-hopping till you find one that says yes, then he would have said there is no point in going to a rabbi.
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Because you have a sevora you assume that I am misquoting Rav Sternbuch. A more intelligent and respectful approach would be to state that you would like clarification since you have a question.
I am not misquoting Rav Sternbuch. I have stated this many times on this blog. In fact I have Rav Sternbuch's handwritten comment regarding this reproduced on the back cover of my book on child abuse.
Rav Sternbuch said that a rav should be consulted - if it is not a danger to the child - so that the world should not be hefker. He said that a rav who gives an answer which endangers the welfare of a child is not acting as a rav and therefore you should ask a different rav. If you know or suspect that the rav is wrong - then it is your responsibility to ask another rav - as long as this does not possibly endanger a child. The point being the responsibility is on you - you are not exempt from you halachic and moral obligation if a rabbi tells you not to call the police.
With all due respect oh great student of R' Sternbuch, I too am confused.
ReplyDeleteYour comment didn't exactly clear up the confusion. If you go to a rabbi and he directs you not to go to the police, do you go to another rabbi? And if he too says the same, do you keep consulting with different rabbis until one says "go to the police"? Like you said, one must use his sechel, so why must I need a rabbi to tell me to go to the police, am I not capable of going without being old to? Perhaps the first rabbi who directed me not to go to the police indeed was looking out for the welfare of the child yet still maintained that in this particular case I don't go to the police?
could someone PLEASE,PLEASE,explain to me,why when a jew would come to me with a gun and rob me of some money,i would have no problem in calling 911 and going to the police,and no one in his right mind would say,you must go to a RAV first,
ReplyDeletethen WHY oh WHY,when some filthy predator goes and molest's a child,whereby he destroys him mentally and physicaly,you have to go to a RAV,isn't a childs life more precious and important than a few lousy dollars?
CHAIM.S
It is a shame that the Rav won't give a blanket statement to go to the police. Is there a reason that the public is deemed so untrustworthy as to be incapable of deciding whether what one's child is saying should be reported or not? The last decade has been about building us up as a community in shmiras haloshen and tznius. No one is going to run to the police to shmear a persons good name, especially on this subject (because we don't talk about sexual perversity), without thinking about the ramifications of such a report. The rabbonim have no faith in us as a people. We are supposed to have emunas chachamim, but are not allowed the basic human need of faith in our perception of reality.
ReplyDeleteOn the other hand, according to this posting, we really are supposed to trust ourselves to know when we are getting bad advice from a rav, (for that we are accountable), but then somehow we must find a rav that will give good advice.
There are important points to note from this.
1. The Rav's acknowledgement that there are rabbonim giving bad advice (which for those who have strong emunas chachamim, they really need to know this can happen.)
2. We shouldn't listen to any Rav who tells us not to go to the police. (We should always in the end go to the police).
Perhaps this is the Rav's clever way of telling us to figure out who are the dangerous rabbonim, dump them, and figure out who are the helpful ones.
Shall we start a list?
Rocky www.shomrimyeladim.com