Maybe I don't get it like you claim, Reb Shmuel. However this posting reminds me of the story of the 5 year old child who one day decides to run away from home because he is tired of being told what to do all the time. An hour later his mother meets him standing at the corner of their block and asks him what he is doing there. He replies defiantly, "I ran away from home because you are always telling me what to do.!"So why are you standing on our corner," asks his mother? "Because you don't let me cross the street by myself."
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R' Shmuel Leibovitz, Lod (Garin Torani near Tel-Aviv), Israel has left a new comment on your post "Conversion crisis - what are world wide consequenc...":
Daas Torah said: You can't have a major conversion program in Israel based on views that are rejected and then cry - but I am also a posek. If you are dealing with a single case then it might be relevant to pull out these views. But a massive in your face program which has been protested against from the beginning? Rav Druckman can not claim that he was unaware of the opposition to his program. He is saying - I already created the facts on the ground. I knew from the beginning what I am doing is not acceptable to most poskim. But I figured if I created enough of these gerim they would have to be accepted because of their sheer numbers.
DT, I really don't think you get it at all!
Yes, you can have such a program (it has been around for a long time). And the opposition was always well known to all of us and to Rav Druckman shlit"a and to the dozens of fine dayanim involved.
Nobody is "crying" that "I am also a posek." Rather, we at Tzohar are stating this truth with dignity and kavod hatorah.
Nobody is saying that our gerim SHOULD be accepted because they are "facts on the ground" in "massive numbers." Nobody is saying that our gerim SHOULD be accepted at all, because we don't expect the charedim to accept them. Ever. Nor do we care all that much. The numbers of charedim who would want to "intermarry" with the poeple we convert are next to zero anyhow.
Rather, we are saying that these gerim WILL be accepted, period. Because our Torah outlook and our Torah scholars and our poskei halacha all confirm that we are doing what is right according to the Torah. WE WILL accept our gerim and we WILL perform their weddings, period. We will marry them ourselves when be'ezrat hashem the zug works out, period. It WILL happen, period.
If it takes fighting within the Rabbanut to achieve this, then so be it. If it takes abolishing the rabbanut and setting up our own independent beis din to achieve this, then so be it. It WILL happen.
Nobody here is "crying" for your recognition. What is really happening is Torah people fighting for their rights to live and apply Torah truth as they see it in Israel. They WILL achieve those rights, period, whether you recognize it or not.
Shmuel Leibovitz, Lod (Garin Torani near Tel-Aviv), Israel
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R' Shmuel Leibovitz, Lod (Garin Torani near Tel-Aviv), Israel has left a new comment on your post "Conversion crisis - what are world wide consequenc...":
Daas Torah said: You can't have a major conversion program in Israel based on views that are rejected and then cry - but I am also a posek. If you are dealing with a single case then it might be relevant to pull out these views. But a massive in your face program which has been protested against from the beginning? Rav Druckman can not claim that he was unaware of the opposition to his program. He is saying - I already created the facts on the ground. I knew from the beginning what I am doing is not acceptable to most poskim. But I figured if I created enough of these gerim they would have to be accepted because of their sheer numbers.
DT, I really don't think you get it at all!
Yes, you can have such a program (it has been around for a long time). And the opposition was always well known to all of us and to Rav Druckman shlit"a and to the dozens of fine dayanim involved.
Nobody is "crying" that "I am also a posek." Rather, we at Tzohar are stating this truth with dignity and kavod hatorah.
Nobody is saying that our gerim SHOULD be accepted because they are "facts on the ground" in "massive numbers." Nobody is saying that our gerim SHOULD be accepted at all, because we don't expect the charedim to accept them. Ever. Nor do we care all that much. The numbers of charedim who would want to "intermarry" with the poeple we convert are next to zero anyhow.
Rather, we are saying that these gerim WILL be accepted, period. Because our Torah outlook and our Torah scholars and our poskei halacha all confirm that we are doing what is right according to the Torah. WE WILL accept our gerim and we WILL perform their weddings, period. We will marry them ourselves when be'ezrat hashem the zug works out, period. It WILL happen, period.
If it takes fighting within the Rabbanut to achieve this, then so be it. If it takes abolishing the rabbanut and setting up our own independent beis din to achieve this, then so be it. It WILL happen.
Nobody here is "crying" for your recognition. What is really happening is Torah people fighting for their rights to live and apply Torah truth as they see it in Israel. They WILL achieve those rights, period, whether you recognize it or not.
Shmuel Leibovitz, Lod (Garin Torani near Tel-Aviv), Israel
Just to clarify: I have no official connection to Tzohar.
ReplyDeleteShmuel
Respectfully, I have a question for R'Shmuel Leibovitz:
ReplyDeleteYou say that "our poskei halacha all confirm that we are doing is right according to the Torah".
Rav Sherman's ruling clearly highlights a case where Rabbi Druckman signed as a witness to a conversion that he in fact never witnessed, and Rabbi Druckman does not deny this.
I respectfully ask you for a specific source (only one) that a specific Rabbi (only one of these poskei halacha you refer to) relies upon which says that a conversion is valid under this circumstance.
I am eager to learn about this.
Who is Shmuel Leibovitz?
ReplyDeleteHe states "we at Tzohar" and then says he has no official connection to Tzohar. What are his qualifications to speak on behalf of the Rabbis of Tzohar?
He says "our gerim SHOULD be accepted", is he a Dayyan on a Beis Din? Is he a Posek? Does he speak officially on behalf of Rav Druckman and the Israeli Gov't's Conversion Institute?
Who are "our gerim"? (Is he referring to Conversion Institute, Reform, Conservative, who?)
He says "these gerim WILL be accepted, period."
What are his qualifications to dismiss the Beis Din Hagadol, the Chief Rabbi and the Gov't officials who made the decision to dismantle the Conversion Institute?
The Office of the Chief Rabbi has not overridden this decision.
The RCA supports the Rabbinute and has agreed to allow the Rabbinute to supervise their conversion courts in the US.
The Union of European Orthodox Rabbis has also accepted the decision of Rav Sherman, as does the Montreal Rabbinate.
But Shmuel Leibovitz is all for "abolishing the rabbanut and setting up our own independent beis din to achieve this".
What are his qualifications to make such a BOLD statement, that his judgment overrides that of the Rabbis of Israel, the US, Europe and Montreal?
Is Shmuel Leibovitz a Gadol Hador?
A Dayyan? A Chief Rabbi??
He doesn't sound like a Rabbi when he goes on to say "Torah people fighting for their rights to live and apply Torah truth as they see it in Israel. They WILL achieve those rights, period, whether you recognize it or not."
What are this man's qualifications to speak on behalf of "Torah people"?
To decide "Torah truth"?
"as they see it"? Is Torah Judaism an individual expression where each person decides for himself what is and is not halacha?
I thought that "Torah" was based upon halacha as decided by the majority of Poskim.
Has the Torah Judaism changed to the extent that halacha is now decided by protesting in the streets???
What religion is THIS??
I thought that "Torah" was based upon halacha as decided by the majority of Poskim.
ReplyDelete===========================
I thought that "Torah" was based upon halacha as decided by your posek.
KT
Joel Rich
That invites the question of "what qualifies a posek?"
ReplyDelete"Torah" was based upon halacha as decided by your posek.
ReplyDeleteTorah can be halacha decided upon by an individual's posek.
But this has nothing to do with democracy or national rules
In the US, I cannot buy my kosher wine on Sundays because it is forbidden by law in my state to sell alcohol on the Christian Sabbath and day of worship.
Does this mean I am required to practice Christianity?
Of course not, I follow a minority religion that is tolerated in the US.
If I want to register a marriage between my first cousin and myself in the US, I am forbidden to do so despite the fact that we are both consenting adults because Christianity in the US forbids this even though my religion permits it. First cousins in the US who wish to marry cross the border to Canada.
Turkey has long been heralded as a secular democracy, however in Turkey, Muslim women are not permitted to marry a man of another faith. If they wish to marry a Jewish or Christian man, he must first convert to Islam.
There is no absolute separation of Church and State in any country in the world that I am aware of.
If I want to register a marriage between my first cousin and myself in the US, I am forbidden to do so despite the fact that we are both consenting adults because Christianity in the US forbids this even though my religion permits it. First cousins in the US who wish to marry cross the border to Canada.
ReplyDeleteThis is incorrect. 26 states in the US allow first cousin marriages, and all of them recognize a first cousin marriage performed in a state where they are legal.
Please fact check when possible before posting - I simply typed "first cousin marriages" (without the quotes) into google and found the fact above immediately.
Leibovitz said...
ReplyDelete"Nobody is saying that our gerim SHOULD be accepted at all, because we don't expect the charedim to accept them. Ever. Nor do we care all that much. The numbers of charedim who would want to "intermarry" with the poeple we convert are next to zero anyhow."
Oh yes they are! From professor Zohar to Rav Druckman. They say that these conversions are necessary to alleviate a demographic crisis. This man is not speaking for anybody but himself.. By using an excuse that other people would not marry these converts anyhow he is by logic nullifying reason detre for this program.That is to solve a demographic split. It is also not true what he says about who wants to marry whom. Not all of these converts are Russians trying to fit in. Many of these converts are from all over. Some are very observant and have married people that Rav Leibowitz alleges would not touch them with a ten foot pole.
May be Rav Leibovitz does not give one iota what the chareidi world thinks. However many of these converts do. Moreover their are many people in North America who also care about what is going on in the rabbinate here. These people want universal acceptance, not the marginalization that Rav Leibovitz is gloating over.
No Rav in his right mind wants his converts to remain under question and marginalized. Moreover what convert wants that for himself/herself. What on earth is he talking about?
"Rather, we are saying that these gerim WILL be accepted, period. Because our Torah outlook and our Torah scholars and our poskei halacha all confirm that we are doing what is right according to the Torah."
He thinks that he can participate in a halachic debate without names or sevoras. This is very bad form. Kind of like when right wingers ram the old "Daas Torah"down every bodies throats.
It is true about what they say about opposing extremists. They converge.
Jersey girl said...
ReplyDelete"There is no absolute separation of Church and State in any country in the world that I am aware of."
In North America there is a complete separation between church and state. It is just that secular law was not invented in a vacuum.
By the way I am not aware that there if there is actually a written doctrine in Christianity regarding marrying first-cousins. Also the law is different in every state.
Also if you think that there is no separation between church and state in North America, try erecting a X-mas tree in a public park in Portland Oregon or Minniapolis/ St. Paul. I have even a better suggestion. Get a job at Wall Mart and wish your customers a merry x-mas. You will see how long you will keep that job.
To Larry Lennhoff,
ReplyDeleteSorry about my "First cousin marriage" error.It came up in my family about 25 years ago and the couple went to Canada to marry.
I had not realized that laws prohibiting cousin marriages predated genetic studies which have since shown that children of non-related couples have a 2-3% risk of birth defects, as opposed to first cousins having a 4-6% risk. As a result half of the US states have since changed their laws to permit first cousin marriages now that genetic counseling is available for those couples that may be at a special risk for birth defects.
http://www.cousincouples.com/?page=facts
To quote a prominent Orthodox Rabbi from the US (who deosn't allow to be quoted without prior approval, so I am leaving out his name):
ReplyDelete"The Founding Fathers erected a wall of separation between Church and State in order to preserve the independence and integrity of religious institutions.The purpose was to shield religion from the pernicious and corroding influence of government. The notion of Government funding designed to undermine the religious or moral convictions of even a portion of the populance would have been unthinkable."
It is a pity that such a wall preventing the corrosion of religion was not erected in Israel.
Rav Sherman's ruling clearly highlights a case where Rabbi Druckman signed as a witness to a conversion that he in fact never witnessed, and Rabbi Druckman does not deny this.
ReplyDeleteI respectfully ask you for a specific source (only one) that a specific Rabbi (only one of these poskei halacha you refer to) relies upon which says that a conversion is valid under this circumstance.
R' Avraham Shapira zt"l.
That's just one posek. I could name many others.