Science Is Not the Enemy vs It doesn't have all the answers

New Republic - Science is not the Enemy - Steven Pinker

The great thinkers of the Age of Reason and the Enlightenment were scientists. Not only did many of them contribute to mathematics, physics, and physiology, but all of them were avid theorists in the sciences of human nature. They were cognitive neuroscientists, who tried to explain thought and emotion in terms of physical mechanisms of the nervous system. They were evolutionary psychologists, who speculated on life in a state of nature and on animal instincts that are “infused into our bosoms.” And they were social psychologists, who wrote of the moral sentiments that draw us together, the selfish passions that inflame us, and the foibles of shortsightedness that frustrate our best-laid plans. [...]

Science doesn't have all the answers  -  Leon Wieseltier

ואללה חדשות בחשיפה דרמטית על מה המאבק של אתרא קדישא בבית שמש, כסף, כבוד, ושליטה

bhol        ;מאחורי המאבק ההלכתי נגד הבנייה על קברי יהודים בעיר עומד מאבק גדול יותר על השליטה בעדה החרדית בין שני הפלגים של    סאטמר, ומאבק שתי עמותות על ה"שוק" של הגנה על קברים

(צפו בהפגנות החרדים בבית שמש, אתמול)
מאבק נגד חילול קברים או מאבקי שליטה פנים חרדיים: ביום השני להפגנות במתחם גולובנציץ' ברמת בית שמש לא נעצר איש, אך המפגינים הגיעו מוכנים כדי להילחם על הפסקת עבודות הבנייה. המפגינים מוחים על חילול קברי יהודים שנמצאים באתר. לדבריהם, מדובר בעבירה חמורה ביותר שעלולה לפגוע בעם ישראל והם ימחו וילחמו בעבודות בשטח עד לביטולן. הנושא עבר לטיפולו של הרב חיים קנייבסקי ועד שיכריע בעניין הופסקה העבודה במקום. עם זאת, מבדיקת וואלה! חדשות עולה כי המאבק לא עוסק בהכרח בשמירה על קברי יהודים, אלא נסוב על כסף ושליטה בעדה החרדית.

נושא השמירה על קברי יהודים נמצא תחת אחריות ה"אתרא קדישה" - ארגון הפועל תחת אחריות העדה החרדית. חברי הארגון ניהלו מאבקים רבים נגד פרויקטים של בניה ואתרים ארכאולוגיים. הארגון נשען על תרומות גדולות מארה"ב לצורך פעילות הפיקוח ומקבל תרומות למאבקים לשמירה על הקברים.

לפני כשנה נכנסה עמותה חדשה לפעול בנושא - "ארץ החיים". העמותה לא שייכת לעדה החרדית והיא פועלת תחת אישורם של הרב חיים קנייבסקי, שאינו מזוהה עם העדה החרדית, והרב משה שטרנבוך, המשמש כראש בית הדין של העדה החרדית. באתר ברמת בית שמש נבנים שני פרויקטים. מלאכת הפיקוח הוטלה על עמותת ארץ החיים, והבונים קיבלו את אישורו של הרב שטרנבוך לצאת לדרך.

Maccabi basketball coach jailed for 8 years for sex abuse

The Age   A [non-Jewish] basketball coach who abused his position of trust to form sexual relationships with two teenage girls, and offend against two others, has been jailed for eight years.

Shannon Charles Francis, 37, will spend a minimum five years and six months in prison for his offending in 1999 and 2000, which involved the sisters of a boy he coached and two others from a girls' team.

The victims were aged between 13 and 16 at the time and were involved with basketball clubs in the Oakleigh area. [...]

He was aged between 22 and 24 when he took advantage of the girls.

Judge Sexton said Francis had breached the trust of a family that considered him a male role model and family friend, when he maintained a sexual relationship with one girl and twice had sex with the girl's younger sister.

Francis also manipulated the trust of two girls from another basketball club, by forming a relationship with one and encouraging another girl to leave her family home with the intention of having sex, the court head.

At one point he told one girl he would commit suicide unless she maintained their relationship, a threat Judge Sexton described as "particularly heinous".

Judge Sexton said Francis had taken advantage of four vulnerable girls, and acknowledged their bravery in coming forward. She assured them they had done nothing wrong.[...]

   DPP v Francis 140813

Sri Lanka faces a growing epidemic of child abuse

Time   Every day, three to five children are raped in the island nation. Police statistics show the total number of child rapes in 2011 as 1,463; the figure jumped to 1,759 cases in 2012, according to a parliamentary report. Police records also give a total of just over 2,000 sexual offenses against children, besides rape, in 2011; child-molestation cases in 2012 soared to over 5,000, according to parliamentary figures. The total number of all crimes against children — which besides sex crimes include crimes of violence, abduction, trafficking and other offenses — increased by a dramatic 64% between 2011 and 2012. 

 Some of the increases can be explained by growing awareness of child rights leading to increased reporting of incidents, but Sri Lanka remains a country where “the family unit is extremely tight-knit and the honor of the individual reflects on the entire family,” says Alia Whitney-Johnson, the founder of an NGO working with survivors of sexual abuse in Sri Lanka, who was interviewed by TIME via e-mail. “It is extremely difficult to report abuse, particularly incest.” [...]

But a more important factor may be the growing number of Sri Lankan women who seek to alleviate poverty at home by taking jobs overseas as domestic helpers. The children they leave behind are often defenseless against abusive fathers and predatory male relatives. (Even so, a comparison with the Philippines — another country where large numbers of women have been obliged to find work overseas — is disconcerting. Based on available official statistics, there are roughly 17 cases of child abuse for every 100,000 people in Sri Lanka; in the Philippines, there are just six cases per 100,000 head of population.) [...]

Rabbi Chaim Druckman continues to support Mutti Elon despite conviction for child molesting

YNET   Less a week after he was found guilty of indecent assault by force on a minor, Rabbi Mordechai Elon is receiving significant support from one of the most prominent religious Zionist rabbis. Ynet has learned that Rabbi Chaim Druckman, one of the leaders of the national-religious public, invited the convicted rabbi to deliver his weekly Torah lesson at his yeshiva of Or Etzion.

In the past few days, Rabbi Druckman has avoided voicing a public opinion in regards to Rabbi Elon or repeating his past statements in favor of the man or against those who accused him of committing sex offenses – likely for fear of creating a public row

Druckman has been criticized in the past for innocently backing Ze'ev Kopolevitch, the former head of Jerusalem's Netiv Meir Yeshiva, who was convicted of indecent acts against his students, thus hurting the victims once again.  [...]

National Archives Unveils Iraqi Jewish Artifacts in Exhibit Opening October 11

National Archives Press Release

On Friday, October 11, 2013, the National Archives will unveil a new exhibition, “Discovery and Recovery: Preserving Iraqi Jewish Heritage.” The exhibit details the dramatic recovery of historic materials relating to the Jewish community in Iraq from a flooded basement in Saddam Hussein’s intelligence headquarters, and the National Archives’ ongoing work in support of U.S. Government efforts to preserve these materials. Located in the Lawrence F. O’Brien Gallery of the National Archives Building in Washington, DC, “Discovery and Recovery” is free and open to the public and runs through January 5, 2014. 

In both English and Arabic, the 2,000 square foot exhibit features 24 recovered items and a “behind the scenes” video of the fascinating yet painstaking preservation process. This exhibit marks the first time these items have been on public display.

Satmar attack: "The man called Rab"d - rebellious elder"

BHOL [update with English translation]  The struggle of the Eida Haredis factors against the Av Beis Din Hagaon Rabbi Moshe Sternbuch, for his strong stand against the decision of his fellow rabbis - most members of the Beis Din - not to excavate at Golovenzitz construction site in Beit Shemesh, a decision made at the initiative of Gab"d Eida Haredis, Hgri"t Weiss, who is president of the organization Asra Kadisha, crosses borders and this week recorded far-reaching developments. 

One notable scribe in the newspaper Der Yid, the journal of the Satmar Rebbe Mahrz"l, is Rabbi Menashe Philip, Rav of Kehal Mahari T"v and brother of Dayan Association of Rabbis and one of the community leaders, Hagaon Rabbi Zalman Leib Philip.

Last Thursday, Rabbi Philip stood at the podium in the Beis Midrash Haredim in Kiryat Yoel, Monroe, and addressed the most pressing issue in the corridors of kanoim: the Golovenzitz compound in Beit Shemesh, and the controversy around the issue between the Rosh Av Beis Din and Gab"d about the excavations.

After relating the chain of events, Rabbi Philip let down the leash of his mouth, opened with slander against Hagaon Rabbi Moshe Sternbuch and called him "crazy" and 'Zaken Mamre'.

"The man who is known as Rab"d'" Rabbi Philip opened his mouth, "writes a letter permeated with leitzanus. Just unthinkable! The man called Rab"d, is shrouded with suppressed hatred against 'Asra Kadisha', since the period of works in the old cemetery in the holy city of Safed, and he is willing to do anything against this organization, G-d forbid.[...]      

Beit Shemesh: Facts about the graves

Kikar Shabbat

Question about Rambam's view of murder

Guest Post by Eddie

There are some difficult passages in a Rambam I am studying, and I wish to ask if anyone has some knowledge of this material, and what the halacha is (or was).

The Rambam, in Hilchot Rotzeach, Ch4: 1, the Rambam argues that killing a person by mistake, if you intended to kill someone else, is exempt from punishment, as is throwing a stone (or bomb) into a crowd. Rambam Chapter 4              mechon-mamre.org/i/b504n.htm

 Here the Raavad points out this was a minority opinion of R' Shimon, and hence is not halacha. So this point is presumably not like the Rambam.

In Halacha 6 he writes: If ten people strike a person with ten different sticks and he dies, they are all not held liable for execution by the court. This law applies regardless of whether they struck him one after the other or they struck him at the same time .This is not disputed by Raavad, is it therefore halacha?

The problem is that this is not at all logical It means that, in a time when we have a Sanhedrin vested with capital punishment authority, murder becomes a very easy crime to commit - simply hire a gang of killers, and you are "patur".

One answer, or counter argument, might be the case of Pilegesh sh' b Giveah.  (Judges Ch. 19-20) where a gang of thugs attack a woman and kill her.  This leads to a war to wipe out the offenders, which ends up in 25,100 Benjamites being killed.  But Rambam might argue that this was a case of gang rape of a pilegesh, not of outright murder.

A further problematic halacha, 10, says that we can openly kill an apikorus, or even someone who brazenly commits an aveira. This can be done in public without need for Judge or Navi. 

What happens if someone decides to kill a woman who won't move on a bus, etc?

Furthermore, the Torah punishment of execution  only applies to certain sins. Where is the force of this halacha, with regards to sins that are not capital crimes, eg shatnez.   Can I kill someone for sowing kilayim in his farm?   The Chazon Ish has already stated that this particular halacha, or the continuation of it no longer applies , since today there are not wilful apikorsim. As far as I know, no Orthodox person has ever used this halacha to kill a reform, an atheist, a Bible critic etc, certainly not in the last 300 years.   The only exception might be Yigal Amir wrongfully shooting Rabin – but this was not because he was a heretic, but that  Rabin had been called a rodeif – which is another issue altogether.

The points I make are not suggesting any final psak halacha, and not attacking any Gedolim or Rishonim.  What I am trying to understand is the practical implications of these halachot, and whether they were ever (or will ever) be implemented?

Preventing sexual abusers of children from reoffending: systematic review of medical and psychological interventions

BMJ   Introduction: Sexual abuse of children is a global problem, and systematic reviews suggest that 18-20% of women and 7-8% of men in the general population report being abused before the age of 18.1 2 Rates have not differed substantially in recent decades but might vary across regions.2 [...]

The high prevalence and adverse consequences of sexual abuse of children warrant increased investment in development of preventive and therapeutic strategies.14 15 16 Such efforts should directly deal with children, their caregivers, and their environments to prevent potential abuse and effectively manage cases of abuse that have already occurred. Interventions for individuals at risk of sexual abusing children could prevent more children from being abused.

Society’s response to people who sexually abuse children has focused largely on punishment and deterrence through the criminal justice system. Offenders, however, are often directed to mental health professionals for treatment of disorders related to the offence (such as sexual compulsivity and paedophilia). Consequently, the availability of evidence based treatment for this population would be of considerable interest to medical practitioners. [...]

Objective To evaluate the effectiveness of current medical and psychological interventions for individuals at risk of sexually abusing children, both in known abusers and those at risk of abusing.

Results After review of 1447 abstracts, we retrieved 167 full text studies, and finally included eight studies with low to moderate risk of bias. We found weak evidence for interventions aimed at reducing reoffending in identified sexual abusers of children. For adults, evidence from five trials was insufficient regarding both benefits and risks with psychological treatment and pharmacotherapy. For adolescents, limited evidence from one trial suggested that multisystemic therapy prevented reoffence (relative risk 0.18, 95% confidence interval 0.04 to 0.73); lack of adequate research prevented conclusions about effects of other treatments. Evidence was also inadequate regarding effectiveness of treatment for children with sexual behavioural problems in the one trial identified. Finally, we found no eligible research on preventive methods for adults and adolescents who had not sexually abused children but were at higher risk of doing so (such as those with paedophilic sexual preference).

Conclusion There are major weaknesses in the scientific evidence, particularly regarding adult men, the main category of sexual abusers of children. Better coordinated and funded high quality studies including several countries are urgently needed. Until conclusive evidence is available, realistic clinical strategies might involve reduction of specific risk factors for sex crimes, such as sexual preoccupation, in abusers at risk of reoffending.

A Kohain and the Daughter of a Jewish Mother by Rabbi Yair Hoffman

Five Towns Jewish Times   In the United States, the spiraling and out-of control assimilation rate in the past few decades has yielded a number of children with Jewish mothers and gentile fathers.  In the past few decades as well, the Baal Teshuvah movement has created an inspiring influx of Jews returning to their Torah roots.  The combination of both of these trends, however, has brought the following halachic question up hundreds, if not thousands, of times:  

May a girl whose father was not Jewish marry or date a Kohain?

One young lady who recently posed this question to this author explained:  “I have dated more modern-orthodox Kohanim who told me that they looked into it and their Rabbis said that it was okay.  But I have also looked into more Yeshivesh Kohanim, and their Rabbi forbade it.  Will the real halacha please stand up?”[...]

CONCLUSIONS

Notwithstanding all the factors discussed above, it was the conclusion of both Rav Elyashiv zt”l and Rav Moshe Feinstein not to rely on the leniencies involved here and not consider such cases as b’dieved. This is the normative view in the Torah world. It is this author’s understanding, however, that there have been some modern orthodox Rabbis who have expressed leniencies in the scenarios described above.

May a Rabbi officiate at such a wedding?  It is this author’s view that it should be avoided unless the issue of taharas mishpacha is at stake.  If the couple will not be observing taharas hamishpacha on account of the Rabbi not participating then he should be involved in such a wedding.  Otherwise he should avoid it.  

May such a Kohain duchen on Yom Tov or in Israel.  It seems that since he may remain married to her if he did marry, he did not lose his status as a Kohain (see Shvus Yaakov Vol. I #93 – indicating likewise).

Revolutionary use by Hassidim of Internet to improve relations with non-Jews - through Kiddush HaShem

The following are excerpts from a Mishpacha (August 7, 2013) article Rights and Wrongs in Montreal. It describes some radical changes in the way chassidic community activists deal with non-Jews as well as government. In particular the recognition of the need for transparency is amazing. Behind doors political deals are out and Kiddush HaShem is in. Of critical importance is the recognition of the unavoidable use of the tools of the Internet - especially to counter Internet anti-Semitism.
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[...] It's not every day that chassidim dance for elderly non-Jewish res­idents of a retirement home, but the state of relations between Jews and non-Jews in Outremont has called for creative measures. Since about 2001, chassidim and community activists have faced off over the configuration of buses, expanding synagogues, and the legality of eiruvim. Tensions have flared, especially during Purim in 2012 when Celine Forget, a provocateur and city council member, showed up among the festivities to plant herself, camera in hand, to record any violation of city bylaws. When chassidim reacted with calls of "Forget, get out," the discord between chassidim and the local pop­ulation made headlines across Canada.

Into this maelstrom have stepped a new crop of Jewish commu­nity activists who have decided on a different approach. Rather than allow tensions to boil over, the chassidic residents of Outremont have engaged in an active campaign of Kiddush Hashem. In addition to the visits to retirement homes, community members have established an online site.joined a political party, and founded a community organization, all with the goals of easing misunderstandings and introducing non-Jewish residents to the chassidic way of life.

"Today, even politicians who were sym­pathetic to us in the past are not willing to stand up for us out of fear of being labeled as rubbing shoulders with the 'Jewish lob­byists:" Belzer chassid Cheskie Weiss explains. "Well, if we won't stand up for ourselves and engage the public and media to expose all the lies and misinformation being hurled against our community, no­body else will,"[...]

Pollak would be one of a number of chas­sidim who, together with Marshy, estab­lished Friends of Hutchison, a grassroots organization named after a street in the neighborhood. Its purpose is to engage chassidim and their non-Jewish neighbors in honest dialogue in order to dispel the lies and misconceptions being promulgated by Forget, Lacerte, and their followers.

Within the year, the number of individ­uals following Friends of Hutchison's site,filled with the smiling faces of chassidic children,jumped from 200 to 650.[..]

Battle in Cyberspace When Weiss and Bobover Boruch Shimon Posner first created an online site in May 2012 called OutremontHassid.com with the intention of directly engaging the public, they had few expectations. Today, they are astounded by its success. "The perception that chassidim are all hated, well - that's been blown away," Weiss says.

Following the 2012 Purim fiasco, Weiss was shocked at the degree of animosity directed at chassidim through the Internet. He decided to fight fire with fire. "We are living in the Internet era," he says. "People like Forget and Lacerte would nev­er have a voice if not for their blogs. Because of the Internet, thousands of people are exposed to their lies and misinformation and the media catches on to this be­cause they're seeking controversy." The Internet, he states, both empowers and victimizes us and we must learn to use it to our advantage.[...]

Still, he is amazed by the positive changes in attitude, especially in the Quebec media and by those voiced on his blog.He was recently moved by a letter posted by a "non-prac­ticing Muslim." She wrote,

"I applaud your genuine words ... I believe that the prob­lem is that many people want to vilify the Hasidim because they don't understand the culture and the customs ... More people support you than you think. ... I got very upset when some neighbor dropped a pamphlet at my door asking me to stop the synagogue expansion [the Bobover shul Shaar on Hutchison Street], but I was more upset that the Hassidic community wasn't doing anything to fight back."[...]

Taking the Next Step Chassidim's approach to dealing with government, Weiss maintains, must also change. He differentiates between the old ways of conducting politics, quietly working is­ sues out behind the scene with politicians, and the new way. "The old way is no longer possible. Because of the Internet, nothing can remain hidden. Today, we understand that nothing can be worked out with politicians if we ourselves cannot explain, sell, and defend our position to the public and and the media. Everything else can be made to appear shady. [...]

12 Steps :The spiritual/scientific basis of addiction recovery

National Geographic   [...] Since the inception of Alcoholics Anonymous (A.A.)—the progenitor of 12-step programs—science has sometimes been at odds with the notion that laypeople can cure themselves.

Yet the success of the 12-step approach may ultimately be explained through medical science and psychology. Both offer substantive reasons for why it works. [...]

The 12-step approach, said Paul Gallant, an interventionist with 27 years of sobriety, is "so popular with treatment centers because it's proven to work. When a person completes treatment, they have a place to go.

"Self-knowledge is not a sufficient treatment for alcoholism," continued Gallant. "I've worked with people who have had years and years of psychotherapy and intensive analysis, but it's brought them no closer to ongoing abstinence."

However, experiencing what Gallant called a "psychic change," which in the 12-step world is linked to the marvel of a "spiritual awakening," often results in a distinct personality and behavioral transformation that leads to long-term sobriety.

"The not-drinking is really just a part of it," Gallant said. "It's not drinking and changing as a person. That psychic change needs to come from a program of spiritual development, and so far the greatest success has been Alcoholics Anonymous."[...]

Daas Torah - Prohibition against clear and flesh colored stockings

שו"ת אגרות משה 
 
אבן העזר חלק ד סימן ק

ו. אם יש טעם להקפיד שילכו הבנות באנפילאות כשאין מקפידין שלא יהו דקות כך שהבשר לא יראה מתוכן.

ובהא שיש אנשים שמקפידים שלא ילכו נשותיהן ובנותיהן בלא אנפילאות על רגליהן אבל אין מקפידין שיהיו האנפילאות באופן שא"א להראות שכתר"ה הקשה דאיזה חלוק יש דאם חשיבין לערוה גם למטה מהארכובה שקורין קני"א אין מועילין כלום דערוה בעששית אסור ואם כהמ"ב שאינו בדין ערוה אין צורך אנפילאות, האמת הוא שהוא לצניעות יותר מחמת שלהלכה עד הקני"א אינו ערוה. אבל איכא גם טעם להצניעות בזה משום שבעצם אין החוטים אף מהאנפילאות הדקין שייך שיראה בשר הרגלים והראיה שכשהן צבועין לבן ושחור לא נראה בשר הרגלים ורק מחמת שצבועין בצבע כמראה הבשר לכן נמצא שבעצם הם מכוסין ולא נראין כלל רק שנדמה לאינשי כנראין, שלכן אף במקום שהוא בדין ערוה ממש נמי הא איכא חלוק מאחר דעכ"פ הערוה מכוסה אך שיש לאסור משום דאיכא הרהור עכ"פ מזה שנראין כבשר וא"כ באם הוא מקום שאינו מביא לידי הרהור כהא דלמטה מארכובה אף אם היה עכ"פ בדין ערוה לא היה שום איסור, ונוגע לדינא ממש בקטנות שליכא הרהור אך שמ"מ הוא בדין ערוה שיהיה מותר באנפילאות כאלו, וזהו אולי טעמם.

והנני ידידו 

משה פיינשטיין
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שו"ת שבט הלוי חלק א סימן א

כבוד ידידי הרב הגאון הצ' אהוב למעלה ונחמד למטה כש"ת מו"ה בנימין זאב. יעקבזון שליט"א רב פאג"י סנהדרי' יצ"ו. אחדשה"ט באהבה וכבוד.

יקרת מכתבו קבלתי ושמחתי להקשיב משלומו הטוב. ואודות שאלתו שאלת חכם בענין הנשים גם נשואות ההולכות בלי גרבים, אם יש בזה גלוי ערוה מצד הדין ואם צריך למחות.

אעבור פרשתא דא בקיצור וה' יהי' אתנו.

בברכות כ"ד ע"א אר"י טפח באשה ערוה למאי אילימא לאסתכולי והאמר ר"ש וכו' אלא באשתו ולענין ק"ש א"ר חסדא שוק באשה ערוה. ופירש"י שוק באשת איש ערוה להסתכל וכן באשתו לק"ש. ובשו"ע סימן ע"ה ס"א טפח מגולה באשה במקום שדרכה לכסותו וכו' וברמ"א וי"א דוקא באשתו אבל באשה אחרת אפילו פחות מטפח הוי ערוה. וכתב בספר משנה ברורה שם אבל פניה וידיה כפי המנהג שדרך להיות מגולה באותו מקום וכן פרסות רגל עד השוק והוא עד מקום שנקרא קני"א בל"א במקום שדרכן לילך יחף מותר לקרות כנגדן וכו' אבל זרועותיה ושוקה אפי' רגילין לילך כדרך הפרוצות אסור ע"כ, וציין שם דדבריו לקוחים מהח"א ופמ"ג.

והנה מוכח מזה דדעת הגאון מ"ב דדרך הפרוצות דהוא בכלל דת יהודית שמוציאין עבורה אשה מבעלה מעיקר הדין עפ"י המבואר כתובות ע"ב מתחיל רק מארכובה דהיינו קני"א ולמעלה ונמשך בזה אחרי החיי"א ופרמ"ג, ובמכתה"ג דבריו צ"ע, דדברי החיי"א אינם משמע כן וגם בדברי הפמ"ג צ"ע.

וז"ל החיי"א כלל ד' ס"ב כל גופה של אשה מה שדרכה להיות מכוסה נקרא ערוה וכו' וכן פרסות רגליה במקום שדרך לילך יחף מותר אבל זרועותיה ושוקה אפי' רגילין בכך כדרך "פרוצות" אסור ע"כ, הרי דלא התיר אלא פרסות רגליה, אבל לא חלק הרגל שלמעלה מן הפרסה דהיינו קנאכע"ל בל"א עד ארכובה (קני"א) דזה באמת בכלל שוק כאשר אבאר אי"ה להלן.

אלא דעיקר העתקת מ"ב בזה מהפמ"ג, וגם זה צ"ע, דז"ל הפמ"ג במ"ז סק"א והוי יודע דלשון שוק הוא מארכובה (עיין רש"י ויקרא ז' ל"ב, ובתוי"ט פ"י דחולין מ"ד וכ"פ הרמב"ם פ"ט ה"י ממעה"ק ושוק לפעמים נקרא ירך, כ"ז בפרמ"ג), ונמצא כל הרגל עד הקני"א במקום שהולכין יחף ומגולה אפשר אין חשש וכו' עכ"ל. הנה הפמ"ג כתב זה דרך אפשר והמ"ב החליט הדברים.

אמנם גם גוף דברי רבינו הפמ"ג לא זכיתי להבין מש"כ דשוק באדם מתחיל רק מארכובה דהיינו הקני"א ולמעלה והיינו משום דהבין הפמ"ג דשוק דאדם דומיא דשוק דבהמה דמבואר לענין חזה ושוק במשנה וגמרא חולין שם ובתוי"ט שם וברמב"ם הנ"ל דהוא מפרק ארכובה התחתונה ולמעלה עד הגוף ב' פרקים דהיינו פרק אמצעי מן הרגל ופרק העליון וס"ל להפמ"ג דארכובה התחתונה של בהמה כנגדה ארכובת האדם דהיינו הקני"א ורק משם ולמעלה מתחיל השוק, וזה צע"ג דהא כבר הוכיחו תוס' מנחות ל"ז ע"א ד"ה קיבורית דשוק דאדם לא הוי כשוק דבהמה, דשוק דאדם מתחיל מיד אחר הרגל התחתון לפני הארכוביא דהיינו הקני"א, וכן הוכיח הגרעק"א בתשובותיו מהדו"ת סימן כ"ח בראיות נכונות דשוק דאדם למטה מן הקני"א, וא"כ תמה אני על עצמי דמה"ת לנו לחלק בין שוק דאדם דמתניתין דאהלות פ"א שהביאו תוס' הנ"ל ועוד כ"ד דמוכח כן כמבואר בתשובת הגרעק"א לשוק של ענינינו דלימא דשוק של גלוי ערוה רק למעלה מן הארכובה, וכיון דכל חילי' דפמ"ג רק מדמיון שוק של בהמה וכבר כתבנו דאין משם ראיה, א"כ שוב הדרינן לסתם לשון שוק שבשאר מקומות שכולל נמי חלק הרגל אשר למטה מן הקני"א, ושפיר דייק החיי"א לכתוב וכן פרסות רגליה וכו', דרק זה מותר באיתגליא, וכל השאר צריך להיות מכוסה, או בבגד, או עכ"פ בגרבים.

ונראה לענ"ד ראיה לזה מלשון הב"י ממש"כ על דברי הטור בסימן ע"ה שכתב וכן אם שוקה מגולה וכו' וז"ל הב"י כלומר שאע"פ שאינו מקום צנוע באיש הוי ערוה באשה, ואי ס"ד דהיינו ממקום הברך עד הגוף, היתכן קס"ד כזאת שמקום זה לא יהיה ערוה באשה מקום שהוא המרגיל הכי גדול לערוה ורגליה יורדת מות כתיב. ותו דגם באיש מקום זה מקום צנוע הוא, כדמשמע במגילה כ"ד ע"א ע"ש רש"י ד"ה פוחח ועש"ה כ"ד ע"ב רש"י ד"ה קטן, ועש"ה בהגהות הב"ח אות ב' דמפורש כן וע"ש בטו"א ורש"ש בזה. אלא כנ"ל דהבית יוסף קרא גם לפרק שלמטה מן הארכובה שוק וזה דקמ"ל דגם זה בכלל ערוה לענין ק"ש וגלוי ערוה לענין אשת איש.

וכיו"ב מדברי הב"ח שם במה שכתב דהיה סברא מבחוץ דאין לחוש כלל לגילוי השוק וכו' ואפילו בא"א ליכא איסור להסתכל בהם (לולא דקמ"ל הטור) דמן הסתם הן מלוכלכות בטיט וצואה ולא יגיע לידי הרהור וכו' יעש"ה ופמ"ג הנ"ל ואי ס"ד דהב"ח אשוק שלמעלה מן הארכובה עד הגוף קאי, א"כ אין לך תמהון לבב גדול מזה שיעלה על לב שום טועה דיהיה מותר להסתכל בא"א בירך הסמוך למקום הגוף ממש. וגם וכי שם מן הסתם מלוכלך בטיט וכו' (והיינו מחמת מלאכה וכיו"ב כמש"כ הפמ"ג), אלא ודאי כמש"כ עפ"י תוס' מנחות הנ"ל דשוק דאדם מתחיל למעלה מרגל התחתון, ועפ"י דין צריך להיות מכוסה או בבגד או בגרבים וכיו"ב, ולא מצאתי כדי סמיכה להתיר, מאחר שבחיי"א מבואר לאיסור ובפמ"ג אינו מבואר להיתר כנ"ל. והקב"ה יצילנו משגיאות ויטהר לבנו לעבדו באמת. ידידו דוש"ת מצפה לחסדי ה'.

ועיין בלשון רשב"ם ב"ב נ"ז ע"ב ד"ה לפי, משמע קצת כדברינו, וכבר העיר בזה בתשובת צור יעקב ח"ב סי' א' בהגה בן המחבר זצ"ל, וע"ש בפנים התשובה. וכבר כתבנו דבתשובת הגרעק"א מהד"ת הכריע כדהתוס' מנחות ל"ז דיש חילוק בין שוק דאדם לבהמה והיינו לחומרא כמש"כ. .