Anyone familiar with the kamenetzky personality understands that it's a rare breed of arrogance, obstinance and better and smarter than thou , no matter how many rabbis outside their immediate circle condemned them no matter how knowledgeable those rabbis are doesn't really make a difference to them they walk through this world like most of us humans walk through an animal Farm they don't think of it as arrogance its just that they're a higher species, they're very kind to us but they're not willing to come down to our level , as long as the Lakewood/Philly / Moetzes doesn't come out against them they will still feel comfortable in their own Coccoon and nothing will change.
I wonder if these Rabbonim use the eruv in Boro Park too. They never respected anything the litvaks do so whats new here? Like the Satmar Rebbe asked his chassidem when they went to R' Moshe ZTL to tell him to change his psak. "voss vest do tun as er vet reddin in learnin?" Its an opportunity for those that want to get their name on the map to stomp their feet and make noise.
What's the eruv got to do with it? Satmar is against the eruv, as is quite a number of other chasiduses. These rabbonim are some of the gedolei poskim of our dor. They certainly don't need to see their name around as it is around quite a bit on various issues in piskei halacha and other communal matters as it is.
Your point exactly? They are smarter then you? They know more then you? The people that have condemned them are out of their circle? Obviously you don't know them at all. Why not find out for yourself how they do it and maybe one day you'll be as successful as them? to live life hating people for no reason but for the sake of hate is not healthy.
Do you have any conception of the pain, the sorrow, these Jewish men felt as they signed this letter? Did you ever have to publicly 'take down' a fellow Jew and subject that Jew to humiliation? Especially an elderly and revered Jew, who was probably 'used out', manipulated by others? Well, I have. Until you have experienced such pain, keep your flippant, wanton statements to yourself.
Success!!!!???? you're a little wet behind the ears, you consider success having a Sharp frock. take the long view how many generations will they be able to cover up for? even if they remain obstinate will they still be around to marry off the first generation of mamzeirim? what about the second ?what about the third ?they are going to run out of power at some point. and then you think the lefkowitz esrog is famous just wait for the kamenetzky mamzeirim!!! Hashem yirachem, They will be famous till the coming of Moshiach. Now THAT'S success now THAT'S brains, you should be thankful people are standing up and stop these fools from self-destructing
Knowing their type - they revel in it. Besides RCR the others are all too happy to affix their names to something and get their "5 minutes of fame". I hardly think pain is something they are feeling or have ever felt towards those who dress and look different from them.
I'm not worried for Reb Nota. He'll do what he did 50 years ago when he was matir a mamzer for a wealthy family of Memphis bluebloods. (One of the women in the family had remarried without a get, and had a son. When he & his girlfriend announced they'd be getting married, some of the old guard had the nerve to ask, "But isn't he a mamzer?!" Reb Nota wrote a Teshuvah that since there were no Shomer Shabbos in Memphis at the time of the mother's Kiddushin, her Kiddushin wasn't chal, so her son wasn't a mamzer. He sent it to Reb Moshe, who initialed it [presumably because the local Rav should know his city's history]. Except that there were likely 200 Shomer Shabbos in Memphis at the time of the woman's Kiddushin, and it was done at the Orthodox Shul. Details, details!) A number of voices rose in protest at the time. Reb Nota simply did "Divide & Conquer". He charmed half his opponents, destroyed the other half. Maybe at his age, with so many opponents, it'll be much harder. Go, Nota, Go! You're the Patron of Mamzerim, and they need you, now more than ever!
Is the eruv the only demarcation between Chasiddim and Litvakim? Pathetic. In any case, two of the signatories on the kol korei are opposed to the eruv, so you simply don't know what you are talking about. Oh, by the way, the story about the Satmar rebbe is probably folklore.
I BH have never taken down a fellow Jew and I am sorry to hear that you have. I don't believe for one minute that they had any pain or sorrow. They were told a bunch of "moderna rabbunim vill mater zayin ah Eishes Ish un kayn get! Gevald!" sign here.
Rainer and Elchanan, I dislike to mention Sigmund Freud. However, he coined a concept that is applicable to all close knit social groups, 'Narcissism of small differences'. In short, this phenomenan leads to hatred towards different subgroups within a group. However, this phenomena does not apply to INDIVIDUALS in one subset towards INDIVIDUALS in another subset. For instance, I know a Lubavitcher who donated a kidney to Satmar. This is the called Ahavas Yisroel, the love of one Jew to the other, independent of affiliation. We must be dan l'kaf z'chusjudge to the Dayanim who signed the letters of protests. It may be a chiyuv.
Stop rewriting history. Reb Moshe DID NOT ATTEND the Satmar Rebbe's levaya. When asked why he replied that "he was not my friend". Satmar Rav had very little regard for Reb Moshes kavod and Reb Moshe understood this. RMK and current Samar Rebbe are not "Gedolim" and friends for political purposes only. BMG brought in Samar Rebbe to a function several years back and it was rumored that they obtained some very nice funding in return. The Novominsker is about as Chasiddish as the Twersky family.
No, Chassidim and the Litvishe, as SUBGROUPS are NOT CLOSE. Please give my post another, more careful reading. To use your example: at a Siyum HaShas the different subgroups join together, in essence, not as individuals, but as members of a particular subgroup. However, in everyday life, Jews as individuals from differerent subgroups, even from subgroups vehemently opposed to each other, join together as friends and brothers. I have a friend who will not eat from a lubavitcher's table, who will not step inside their shuls, and vocally opposes the subgroup at every opportunity, however, he has a number of of Chabad friends he holds dear.
Yes, chassidim and litvishe are close-knit, in the sense of being communities of ovdei Hashem who are mekayeim the Torah. There aren't that many of us, you know. Is this even a matter for debate?
What the heck are you talking about. The Litvish and the Chasidim are close as groups and have been for well over a hundred years. The Chasidim and Litvish sit on the same Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah in Agudas Yisroel here in America, and already were doing so in Europe when the Chofetz Chaim and the Gerrer Rebbe founded Agudas Yisroel. You'll find Chasidim in Litvish yeshivos all over the place. And you'll find Litvish Gedolim very close with Chasidishe Gedolim, such as Rav Malkiel Kotler's close relationship with the Satmar Rebbe in KY as well as many other such examples both today and from yesteryear in America and Europe. The Brisker Rov was very close to the Satmar Rebbe too.
The klauzenberger rebbe z''l married the nitra's sister. (She still lives in the union city shtiebel in an upstairs apartment.) Would he have married a yekke? Even with a new pot?
I don't think that Rav Moshe would talk like that. I understand that he had a rapport with every gadol and would be remiss to say that he had any PERSONAL adversaries. I have had the impression that they were close and would be curious to see proof otherwise.
Unfortunately, it seems superficial to say (just like by Nathan's and Rainer's posts) that this is machlokes that is ethnic in nature when we all we need to say is, "just the facts, maam".
Dude, who said anything about a levaya? I surely did not. You must be confusing the Satmar Rebbe attending, and giving a major hesped, at the levaya of Rav Aharon Kotler.
But Rav Moshe and the Satmar Rebbe certainly met (pictures are abound) many times to discuss communal and Torah matters. Even though they disagreed on certain issues. (Rav Hutner asked the Satmar Rebbe to write a teshuva opposing Rav Moshe's position on artificial insemination.) Gedolim disagree with each other on various halachic and communal matters and nevertheless remain best of friends and continue to highly respect each other.
Yes, Rav Malkiel Kotler and the Novominsker Rebbe and the others you malign are Gedolim. And the inter-Litvish/Chasidish union continues ad hayom hazeh.
I'll replicate my comment to you from R' Maryles's blog. Your clear response would be much appreciated.
-=-=
RYGB writes:
"I agree that it would be wonderful to undertake to restore some measure of true tochacha . ORA ... is dealing with situations way past the point at which the devarim would be nishma'im"
Allow me to clarify: I'm advocating for תוכחה done כדין תורה - without pre-supposition of guilt of the perceived agriever but instead recognizing that (s)he may be partially or fully a victim of false accusations, measured ע"פ דין דין תורה"ק and ע"פ cutting-edge psychology ע"פ מומחים גמורים.
My well reasoned claim: Possible Implicit biases of the perceived agrieved, specifically "Bias Blind Spot" (the tendency to be ignorant of one's own biases - Pronin and Kugler, 2007) are standing in the way of constructive communication and resolution of issues.
If so:
1) There are always new cases in the pipeline of couples not yet separated, or separated and still considering getting back together again. Please use your influence to educated them about the insidious influence of implicit "bias blind spot".
2) More relevant even to cases which according to your understanding are "way past the point at which the devarim would be nishma'im": Even when the marriage must indeed end, why not advocate for the resolution of remaining issues through a mediator well versed in the insidious power of implicit biases and especially "bias blind spot", thereby removing much of the built up שנאה and allowing BOTH parties to feel that they are being heard and understood? This isn't happening now.
3) Even more relevant to the specific case of Aharon Freidman: I have spoken to Aharon several times and also written several posts concerning the specific professional errors of judgement involved in his "diagnosis" on the daattorah blog (under the screenname "Ploni"). There is no doubt in my mind that in THIS SPECIFIC case "bias blind spot" has played AND CONTINUES TO PLAY a substantial role. This is aided and abetted by what Dr. Tom Insel (recently retired long time director of NIMH, largest funder of mental health research in the world) called his "favorite atonement issue" for which the mental health profession needs to do תשובה:
"the lack of humility in our field. Mental disorders are among the most complex problems in medicine, with challenges at every level … we know so little … so much of mental health care is based on faith and intuition, not science and evidence … my call is for humility".
You know there's a problem when the TOP leaders of the field proclaim it, yet nobody talks about it. It's not hard to see how this lack of humility encourages implicit bias.
I would be happy to meet with you and explain specifics in detail.
Once again: Place the emphasis on building solid houses and not on planning their destruction.
No, I am not confusing this with R Ahron's Levaya although there is plenty to discuss about the Satmar Rav's presence at that venue. And as for meeting to discuss communal matters, that has nothing to do with being "close" as you stated in your previous post. With such logic I can say that (lehavdil) the pictures of Obama shaking hands with Netanyahu means they are close as well. Furthermore, I never said that the Novominsker was not a gadol unless being chassidish is a pre-requisite to which I strongly disagree. And as for the RMK and Samar Rebbe - Rosh yeshivah/Rebbe ≠ gadol.
So because you never heard the story (which was told over by a family member of RMF) I am now a liar. In my anger, jews I don't like - seems like the pot calling the kettle black - eh.
I would like proof that Rav Hutner asked the Satmar rebbe to write a teshuvah opposing Rav Moshe. This is probably yet another tall tale. In any case, the Satmar rebbe wrote more than one teshuvah opposing Rav Moshe. Also, read the hakdamah to chelk ches of the Igros Moshe for some more detail regarding Rav Moshe and Satmar. There was no love lost between the two of them.
If there was a thriving Orthodox community RMF would never have sent RNG there to begin with. Before you make such an absurd comment and insinuate that RMF erroneously affixed his initials to RNG's heter when we know that השתא בהמתן של צדיקים אין הקב"ה מביא תקלה על ידם צדיקים עצמן לא כ"ש, verify your sources and provide some clear data to back up your claims.
Pure drivel. You acknowledge the halacha, admit to the fact that you don't understand why the Torah set it up "unfairly" and proceed to reject the halacha as a result. Put down the Yerushalmi and go back to elementary school. I hope you get divorced soon, as it will broaden your understanding of the weapons each side has. In the meantime perhaps plumbing would be a good profession for you because it will give you the opportunity to keep shoveling fecal matter. With all due respect to kvod Torascha.
You can search for it but Meir Belsky ran the yeshivah in Memphis and RNG had many issues with him. At some point RNG forced him out claiming that if he didn't leave willing he would publicize a certain story. Fearing this Belsky left and moved to Israel - since then other accusations have been made against Belsky in Israel. A bit of help from google may help your curiosity.
Does Rav Nota Greenblatt have an official position in Memphis, or does he ran an independent Vaad Hakashrus and his own little minyan and serve as an freelance posek and mesader gittin? Is it a bit strange that when he is already at an advanced age he starts a yeshiva for the first time? Shouldn't we cut him some slack in light of his long-term good reputation and focus on Rav Sholom Kamenetsky who is clearly the only one involved who is not over retirement age? In Rav Nota Greenblatt's published letter he makes it very clear that he was only involved through Rav Sholom K.
Why should it matter why he got involved. He was the key figure in the heter and even when it has been repeatedly told him that the facts he relied on are false he says "I know nothing about the facts but am relying on the doctors report and I am just following the Shulchan Aruch" and makes no effort to investigate the facts and resists efforts to show him that the facts were wrong.
The story about Reb Moshe is utter bunk!!! Reb Moshe was in the Yeshiva's camp, and was kept unaware of the Stamar Rebbe's petirah untill after the levaya, He wasn't told because they were afraid that despite his frailty he would insist on going. Reb Reuven and the entire Yeshiva went to the levaya, with some people staying behind in camp for various reasons.
Actually that story which was widely circulated was done based on an interview with REG after he unfortunately was no longer in his right of mind. He was extremely confused about numerous things. Speak to his family, they were quite upset at the interview - including the story that he claimed to have lost money with Madoff. Sadly that was also a figment of his imagination as he had begun to lose his mind. The reality is that RNG brought his nephew to be a melamed in Memphis. Speak to the family - its no secret.
It wasn't a thriving community, it was a dying community. It had gone down from about 20 butcher shops to around 2, from many shuls to a few. They needed lots of help, but that didn't affect the amount of Shomer Shabbos there had been in the previous generation, 20 years before RNG. It wasn't a Takala al Yado of Rav Moshe, it was a takala of RNG. Rav Moshe's NOT initialing it would've helped zilch. Besides, there will be no takala if the fellow's children or grandchildren don't become frum, or people don't know. I will absolutely NOT provide names, as now any grandkids would be mutar as safek mamzerim. I spoke to the fellow who hid Rav Eliezer Silver's book of mamzerim in Ohio, and he was adamant that despite being a Talmid of RES who had publicized the names yearly, re-opening such books would make problems for multiple families. Yes, I carry a Chaim Berlin membership card, right next to my Dick Tracy decoder ring. And next to Pruneface's & Mumbles' jailbreak, the Belsky saga is the 2nd biggest thing I'm trying to get over. Thanks for the non sequiturs! The poskim I ask my she'ailos to are either children or students of RMF aliba d'RMF, so I don't think I need to explain my Yiras haKavod for RMF. Somehow, I learn the Torah of both Rav Yonoson Eibeschutz & Rav Yaakov Emden, the Vilna Gaon & the Ba'al Shem Tov, the Rambam & Rabbeinu Yonah, and don't consider it a 'tarti d'sasri'. Not sure what your problem is.
Yes, I am too funny. That's what the old folk told me. Maybe they made up the source of RNG's heter, maybe RNG made up RMF's initializing, maybe RNG knew something he didn't put into the teshuvah. I don't make the news, I just report it.
I asked my Memphis contacts how i can find out more, and they told me I can't talk to the person who started the story, because he has already died in prison while serving time for bank fraud & forgery. (Apparently, he bought cheap properties like the Old City Dump, had them re-evaluated for millions, and took out huge loans that he used to pay back old loans in a Ponzi-like scheme. When he couldn't get a favorable evaluation, he changed the number & made a copy of the new document. He also forged his father-in-law's signature as backing his loans.) But, I'll try to get the story from the next-closest source, if you give me some time.
Anyone familiar with the kamenetzky personality understands that it's a rare breed of arrogance, obstinance and better and smarter than thou , no matter how many rabbis outside their immediate circle condemned them no matter how knowledgeable those rabbis are doesn't really make a difference to them they walk through this world like most of us humans walk through an animal Farm they don't think of it as arrogance its just that they're a higher species, they're very kind to us but they're not willing to come down to our level , as long as the Lakewood/Philly / Moetzes doesn't come out against them they will still feel comfortable in their own Coccoon and nothing will change.
ReplyDeleteI wonder if these Rabbonim use the eruv in Boro Park too. They never respected anything the litvaks do so whats new here? Like the Satmar Rebbe asked his chassidem when they went to R' Moshe ZTL to tell him to change his psak. "voss vest do tun as er vet reddin in learnin?" Its an opportunity for those that want to get their name on the map to stomp their feet and make noise.
ReplyDeleteNitra is not Chasidic. They're Oberlander.
ReplyDeleteWhat's the eruv got to do with it? Satmar is against the eruv, as is quite a number of other chasiduses. These rabbonim are some of the gedolei poskim of our dor. They certainly don't need to see their name around as it is around quite a bit on various issues in piskei halacha and other communal matters as it is.
ReplyDeleteYour point exactly? They are smarter then you? They know more then you? The people that have condemned them are out of their circle? Obviously you don't know them at all. Why not find out for yourself how they do it and maybe one day you'll be as successful as them? to live life hating people for no reason but for the sake of hate is not healthy.
ReplyDeleteTracht! Wow Gehinom doesn't scare you?
ReplyDeleteDo you have any conception of the pain, the sorrow, these Jewish men felt as they signed this letter? Did you ever have to publicly 'take down' a fellow Jew and subject that Jew to humiliation? Especially an elderly and revered Jew, who was probably 'used out', manipulated by others? Well, I have. Until you have experienced such pain, keep your flippant, wanton statements to yourself.
ReplyDeleteEruv is ok, mamzer is bad, not the other way around stupid
ReplyDeleteRainer daas, in truth u have a point, the fight here is an extension of the mackhloket between reb Moshe and satmar ruv
ReplyDeleteSuccess!!!!???? you're a little wet behind the ears, you consider success having a Sharp frock. take the long view how many generations will they be able to cover up for? even if they remain obstinate will they still be around to marry off the first generation of mamzeirim? what about the second ?what about the third ?they are going to run out of power at some point. and then you think the lefkowitz esrog is famous just wait for the kamenetzky mamzeirim!!! Hashem yirachem, They will be famous till the coming of Moshiach. Now THAT'S success now THAT'S brains, you should be thankful people are standing up and stop these fools from self-destructing
ReplyDeleteKnowing their type - they revel in it. Besides RCR the others are all too happy to affix their names to something and get their "5 minutes of fame". I hardly think pain is something they are feeling or have ever felt towards those who dress and look different from them.
ReplyDeleteThe satmar rebbe z''l spent his first pesach in america at nitra. He couldn't go to a place that had 'gebrox' per oberlander pressburg.
ReplyDeleteI'm not worried for Reb Nota. He'll do what he did 50 years ago when he was matir a mamzer for a wealthy family of Memphis bluebloods. (One of the women in the family had remarried without a get, and had a son. When he & his girlfriend announced they'd be getting married, some of the old guard had the nerve to ask, "But isn't he a mamzer?!" Reb Nota wrote a Teshuvah that since there were no Shomer Shabbos in Memphis at the time of the mother's Kiddushin, her Kiddushin wasn't chal, so her son wasn't a mamzer. He sent it to Reb Moshe, who initialed it [presumably because the local Rav should know his city's history]. Except that there were likely 200 Shomer Shabbos in Memphis at the time of the woman's Kiddushin, and it was done at the Orthodox Shul. Details, details!)
ReplyDeleteA number of voices rose in protest at the time. Reb Nota simply did "Divide & Conquer". He charmed half his opponents, destroyed the other half.
Maybe at his age, with so many opponents, it'll be much harder.
Go, Nota, Go! You're the Patron of Mamzerim, and they need you, now more than ever!
Is the eruv the only demarcation between Chasiddim and Litvakim? Pathetic. In any case, two of the signatories on the kol korei are opposed to the eruv, so you simply don't know what you are talking about. Oh, by the way, the story about the Satmar rebbe is probably folklore.
ReplyDeleteI BH have never taken down a fellow Jew and I am sorry to hear that you have. I don't believe for one minute that they had any pain or sorrow. They were told a bunch of "moderna rabbunim vill mater zayin ah Eishes Ish un kayn get! Gevald!" sign here.
ReplyDeleteIts an opportunity for those that want to get their name on the map to stomp their feet and make noise.
ReplyDeletelol
Rav Chazkel Roth is undeniably the leading Chasiddish Possek today. He needs his name on the map?
Nu? Did you go to Rav Dovid already? Where is his agreement to this horrible nonsense?
Rainer and Elchanan, I dislike to mention Sigmund Freud. However, he coined a concept that is applicable to all close knit social groups, 'Narcissism of small differences'. In short, this phenomenan leads to hatred towards different subgroups within a group. However, this phenomena does not apply to INDIVIDUALS in one subset towards INDIVIDUALS in another subset. For instance, I know a Lubavitcher who donated a kidney to Satmar. This is the called Ahavas Yisroel, the love of one Jew to the other, independent of affiliation. We must be dan l'kaf z'chusjudge to the Dayanim who signed the letters of protests. It may be a chiyuv.
ReplyDeleteI do not know anything about your story. But if true, the Targum on the Possuk "Sof dovor..." seems to be very appropriate...
ReplyDeleteUr too funny! Reb Moshe initialed it but YOU know it was wrong! You dope!
ReplyDeleteYour comparison to a life and death situation is foolish and has nothing to to with "INDIVIDUALS'.
ReplyDeleteStop rewriting history. Reb Moshe DID NOT ATTEND the Satmar Rebbe's levaya. When asked why he replied that "he was not my friend". Satmar Rav had very little regard for Reb Moshes kavod and Reb Moshe understood this. RMK and current Samar Rebbe are not "Gedolim" and friends for political purposes only. BMG brought in Samar Rebbe to a function several years back and it was rumored that they obtained some very nice funding in return. The Novominsker is about as Chasiddish as the Twersky family.
ReplyDeleteNo, Chassidim and the Litvishe, as SUBGROUPS are NOT CLOSE. Please give my post another, more careful reading. To use your example: at a Siyum HaShas the different subgroups join together, in essence, not as individuals, but as members of a particular subgroup. However, in everyday life, Jews as individuals from differerent subgroups, even from subgroups vehemently opposed to each other, join together as friends and brothers. I have a friend who will not eat from a lubavitcher's table, who will not step inside their shuls, and vocally opposes the subgroup at every opportunity, however, he has a number of of Chabad friends he holds dear.
ReplyDeleteNu, so they bought a new pot for him. Groise kasha.
ReplyDeleteVery likely.
ReplyDeleteYes, chassidim and litvishe are close-knit, in the sense of being communities of ovdei Hashem who are mekayeim the Torah. There aren't that many of us, you know. Is this even a matter for debate?
ReplyDeleteWhat the heck are you talking about. The Litvish and the Chasidim are close as groups and have been for well over a hundred years. The Chasidim and Litvish sit on the same Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah in Agudas Yisroel here in America, and already were doing so in Europe when the Chofetz Chaim and the Gerrer Rebbe founded Agudas Yisroel. You'll find Chasidim in Litvish yeshivos all over the place. And you'll find Litvish Gedolim very close with Chasidishe Gedolim, such as Rav Malkiel Kotler's close relationship with the Satmar Rebbe in KY as well as many other such examples both today and from yesteryear in America and Europe. The Brisker Rov was very close to the Satmar Rebbe too.
ReplyDeleteThe klauzenberger rebbe z''l married the nitra's sister. (She still lives in the union city shtiebel in an upstairs apartment.) Would he have married a yekke? Even with a new pot?
ReplyDeleteYou mean to tell me that you would allow your children to marry her children without thinking twice? Case closed
ReplyDeleteReb Moshe was right, satmar rav was no friend of his, and guess what!! Satmar rav was right
ReplyDeleteCorrect, novominsker "rebbe" is totally unknown amongst mainstream chasidim, even in boro park
ReplyDeleteHe is hardly ever seen at functions and simchas at all
Some discussion of this development at http://haemtza.blogspot.com/2015/12/the-get-as-loaded-gun.htm
ReplyDeleteI don't think that Rav Moshe would talk like that. I understand that he had a rapport with every gadol and would be remiss to say that he had any PERSONAL adversaries. I have had the impression that they were close and would be curious to see proof otherwise.
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately, it seems superficial to say (just like by Nathan's and Rainer's posts) that this is machlokes that is ethnic in nature when we all we need to say is, "just the facts, maam".
link doesn't work
ReplyDeleteDude, who said anything about a levaya? I surely did not. You must be confusing the Satmar Rebbe attending, and giving a major hesped, at the levaya of Rav Aharon Kotler.
ReplyDeleteBut Rav Moshe and the Satmar Rebbe certainly met (pictures are abound) many times to discuss communal and Torah matters. Even though they disagreed on certain issues. (Rav Hutner asked the Satmar Rebbe to write a teshuva opposing Rav Moshe's position on artificial insemination.) Gedolim disagree with each other on various halachic and communal matters and nevertheless remain best of friends and continue to highly respect each other.
Yes, Rav Malkiel Kotler and the Novominsker Rebbe and the others you malign are Gedolim. And the inter-Litvish/Chasidish union continues ad hayom hazeh.
Correct. Elchanan is making lies up in his anger and hatred of Jews he doesn't like.
ReplyDeleteA wife takes the husband's minhagim.
ReplyDeleteI think RYGB is trying to link to this page:
ReplyDeletehttp://haemtza.blogspot.com/2015/12/the-get-as-loaded-gun.html
Hi RYGB!
ReplyDeleteI'll replicate my comment to you from R' Maryles's blog. Your clear response would be much appreciated.
-=-=
RYGB writes:
"I agree that it would be wonderful to undertake
to restore some measure of true tochacha . ORA ... is dealing with
situations way past the point at which the devarim would be nishma'im"
Allow me to clarify: I'm advocating for תוכחה done כדין תורה - without
pre-supposition of guilt of the perceived agriever but instead
recognizing that (s)he may be partially or fully a victim of false
accusations, measured ע"פ דין דין תורה"ק and ע"פ cutting-edge
psychology ע"פ מומחים גמורים.
My well reasoned claim: Possible Implicit biases of the perceived agrieved, specifically "Bias Blind Spot" (the tendency to be ignorant of one's own biases - Pronin and Kugler, 2007) are standing in the way of constructive communication and resolution of issues.
If so:
1) There are always new cases in the pipeline of couples not yet separated, or separated and still considering getting back together again. Please use your influence to educated them about the insidious influence of implicit "bias blind spot".
2) More relevant even to cases which according to your understanding are "way past the point at which the devarim would be nishma'im": Even when the marriage must indeed end, why not advocate for
the resolution of remaining issues through a mediator well versed in
the insidious power of implicit biases and especially "bias blind spot",
thereby removing much of the built up שנאה and allowing BOTH parties to feel that they are being heard and understood? This isn't happening now.
3) Even more relevant to the specific case of Aharon Freidman: I have
spoken to Aharon several times and also written several posts concerning the specific professional errors of judgement involved in his
"diagnosis" on the daattorah blog (under the screenname "Ploni"). There is no doubt in my mind that in THIS SPECIFIC case "bias blind spot" has played AND CONTINUES TO PLAY a substantial role. This is aided and abetted by what Dr. Tom Insel (recently retired long time director of NIMH, largest funder of mental health research in the world) called his "favorite atonement issue" for which the mental health profession needs to do תשובה:
"the lack of humility in our field. Mental disorders are among the most complex problems in medicine, with challenges at every level … we know so little … so much of mental health care is based on faith and intuition, not science and evidence … my call is for humility".
You know there's a problem when the TOP leaders of the field proclaim it, yet nobody talks about it. It's not hard to see how this lack of humility encourages implicit bias.
I would be happy to meet with you and explain specifics in detail.
Once again: Place the emphasis on building solid houses and not on planning their destruction.
Thank You.
Sorry for the bad link!
ReplyDeleteNo, I am not confusing this with R Ahron's Levaya although there is plenty to discuss about the Satmar Rav's presence at that venue. And as for meeting to discuss communal matters, that has nothing to do with being "close" as you stated in your previous post. With such logic I can say that (lehavdil) the pictures of Obama shaking hands with Netanyahu means they are close as well. Furthermore, I never said that the Novominsker was not a gadol unless being chassidish is a pre-requisite to which I strongly disagree. And as for the RMK and Samar Rebbe - Rosh yeshivah/Rebbe ≠ gadol.
ReplyDeleteSo because you never heard the story (which was told over by a family member of RMF) I am now a liar. In my anger, jews I don't like - seems like the pot calling the kettle black - eh.
ReplyDeleteI would like proof that Rav Hutner asked the Satmar rebbe to write a teshuvah opposing Rav Moshe. This is probably yet another tall tale. In any case, the Satmar rebbe wrote more than one teshuvah opposing Rav Moshe. Also, read the hakdamah to chelk ches of the Igros Moshe for some more detail regarding Rav Moshe and Satmar. There was no love lost between the two of them.
ReplyDeleteIf there was a thriving Orthodox community RMF would never have sent RNG there to begin with. Before you make such an absurd comment and insinuate that RMF erroneously affixed his initials to RNG's heter when we know that השתא בהמתן של צדיקים אין הקב"ה מביא תקלה על ידם צדיקים עצמן לא כ"ש, verify your sources and provide some clear data to back up your claims.
ReplyDeleteSatmar Rov was right about what? And any proof for your statement whatever it may be?
ReplyDeleteJust grappling how these petty issues of personal relationships should decide halacha. It isn't even a debate. ......
ReplyDeleteI really don't have that much influence... I am just a high school rebbe...
ReplyDeletePure drivel. You acknowledge the halacha, admit to the fact that you don't understand why the Torah set it up "unfairly" and proceed to reject the halacha as a result. Put down the Yerushalmi and go back to elementary school. I hope you get divorced soon, as it will broaden your understanding of the weapons each side has. In the meantime perhaps plumbing would be a good profession for you because it will give you the opportunity to keep shoveling fecal matter. With all due respect to kvod Torascha.
ReplyDeleteבמחילת כבודו...
ReplyDeleteYou don't have influence to talk about constructive solutions ... and it sure looks you also don't have time... I see.
Elchanan, what "Belsky saga" are you talking about?
ReplyDeleteIs chelek ches the one known as the igros Mordechai?
ReplyDeleteIsn't Rav Malkiel on the Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah?
ReplyDeleteYou can search for it but Meir Belsky ran the yeshivah in Memphis and RNG had many issues with him. At some point RNG forced him out claiming that if he didn't leave willing he would publicize a certain story. Fearing this Belsky left and moved to Israel - since then other accusations have been made against Belsky in Israel. A bit of help from google may help your curiosity.
ReplyDeleteCue RaP and the hazmana letters...
ReplyDeleteSure. Why not?
ReplyDeleteNo
ReplyDeleteRav Malkiel is a member of the American Moetzes.
ReplyDeleteDoes Rav Nota Greenblatt have an official position in Memphis, or does he ran an independent Vaad Hakashrus and his own little minyan and serve as an freelance posek and mesader gittin? Is it a bit strange that when he is already at an advanced age he starts a yeshiva for the first time? Shouldn't we cut him some slack in light of his long-term good reputation and focus on Rav Sholom Kamenetsky who is clearly the only one involved who is not over retirement age? In Rav Nota Greenblatt's published letter he makes it very clear that he was only involved through Rav Sholom K.
ReplyDeleteWhy should it matter why he got involved. He was the key figure in the heter and even when it has been repeatedly told him that the facts he relied on are false he says "I know nothing about the facts but am relying on the doctors report and I am just following the Shulchan Aruch" and makes no effort to investigate the facts and resists efforts to show him that the facts were wrong.
ReplyDeleteRMF sent his nephew, the rivevot ephraim (who i believe was a chaim berliner). RNG inherited memphis from his nephew.
ReplyDeleteA friend of mine was mashgiach for the last ever production of real kishke (not the plastic stuff of today.
ReplyDeleteAnd curiously, it was in somerville, new jersey, the same town as the first nitra yeshiva in america.
According to ORA shetakes his house too.
ReplyDeleteI was mistaken. http://matzav.com/moetzes-gedolei-hatorah-meet/
ReplyDeleteThe story about Reb Moshe is utter bunk!!!
ReplyDeleteReb Moshe was in the Yeshiva's camp, and was kept unaware of the Stamar Rebbe's petirah untill after the levaya, He wasn't told because they were afraid that despite his frailty he would insist on going. Reb Reuven and the entire Yeshiva went to the levaya, with some people staying behind in camp for various reasons.
Actually that story which was widely circulated was done based on an interview with REG after he unfortunately was no longer in his right of mind. He was extremely confused about numerous things. Speak to his family, they were quite upset at the interview - including the story that he claimed to have lost money with Madoff. Sadly that was also a figment of his imagination as he had begun to lose his mind. The reality is that RNG brought his nephew to be a melamed in Memphis. Speak to the family - its no secret.
ReplyDeleteIt wasn't a thriving community, it was a dying community. It had gone down from about 20 butcher shops to around 2, from many shuls to a few. They needed lots of help, but that didn't affect the amount of Shomer Shabbos there had been in the previous generation, 20 years before RNG.
ReplyDeleteIt wasn't a Takala al Yado of Rav Moshe, it was a takala of RNG. Rav Moshe's NOT initialing it would've helped zilch. Besides, there will be no takala if the fellow's children or grandchildren don't become frum, or people don't know.
I will absolutely NOT provide names, as now any grandkids would be mutar as safek mamzerim. I spoke to the fellow who hid Rav Eliezer Silver's book of mamzerim in Ohio, and he was adamant that despite being a Talmid of RES who had publicized the names yearly, re-opening such books would make problems for multiple families.
Yes, I carry a Chaim Berlin membership card, right next to my Dick Tracy decoder ring. And next to Pruneface's & Mumbles' jailbreak, the Belsky saga is the 2nd biggest thing I'm trying to get over. Thanks for the non sequiturs!
The poskim I ask my she'ailos to are either children or students of RMF aliba d'RMF, so I don't think I need to explain my Yiras haKavod for RMF. Somehow, I learn the Torah of both Rav Yonoson Eibeschutz & Rav Yaakov Emden, the Vilna Gaon & the Ba'al Shem Tov, the Rambam & Rabbeinu Yonah, and don't consider it a 'tarti d'sasri'. Not sure what your problem is.
Yes, I am too funny.
ReplyDeleteThat's what the old folk told me. Maybe they made up the source of RNG's heter, maybe RNG made up RMF's initializing, maybe RNG knew something he didn't put into the teshuvah. I don't make the news, I just report it.
I asked my Memphis contacts how i can find out more, and they told me I can't talk to the person who started the story, because he has already died in prison while serving time for bank fraud & forgery.
ReplyDelete(Apparently, he bought cheap properties like the Old City Dump, had them re-evaluated for millions, and took out huge loans that he used to pay back old loans in a Ponzi-like scheme. When he couldn't get a favorable evaluation, he changed the number & made a copy of the new document. He also forged his father-in-law's signature as backing his loans.)
But, I'll try to get the story from the next-closest source, if you give me some time.
who is r'roth? That was his 1 minute claim to fame?
ReplyDeleteDid anyone posul rav Kam...? Rav kanievsky wrote to him calling him his friend.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yechezkel_Roth#cite_note-Yeshiva_world-7
ReplyDeletehttp://daattorah.blogspot.com/2016/01/rav-avraham-yeshaya-soloveitchik.html
ReplyDelete