mlhv''l has left a new comment on your post "Rav Belsky's Tshuva on fish worms":
http://www.zshare.net/
5 minutes in it starts, 6 minutes Rabbi Karp really loses his cool...
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complete recording
http://www.zshare.net/
Complete audio. Rabbi, how about you give some editorial feedback on this?
Losing ones cool when one feels halachic principles are being sacrificed is a high compliment.
ReplyDeleteYes, especially when you are the one compromising halachic principles, no?
ReplyDeleteWho besides Rav Karp is speaking here? Who is the one whose comment about it being apikorsus set off Rav Karp?
ReplyDeleteNo, losing ones cool because someone isn't ready to give you a free ride & bringing other unrelated issues you have with the questioner, is NEVER justified in intelectually honest discussion, only in agenda driven discussion.
ReplyDelete& Rabbi E, thanks for the credit...
Where is the rest of the recording?
ReplyDeletePlease post.
Thank you!
A transcript/ translation would be great.
ReplyDeleteIn listening again (and as far as I can tell due to my weak yiddish), it sounds like it's Rav Belsky who sets Rav Karp off by equating Rav Karp's position with apikorsus.
ReplyDeleteThe Rosh Yeshiva = R. Belsky interrupted R. Karp and said that he is "moicheh bechol koichee" ("I protest with all of my strength")
ReplyDeleteThat to say that something which the gemara and shulchan aruch say is muttar is really assur (which in R. Belsky's opinion means that worms found in flesh are permissible regardless of whether they came from the stomach)is "apikorsus meleah(sic)" "complete heresy".
R. Karp took great offence at that (with the argument that the many gedolei eretz yisrael agreed with him) and became very animated returning the insult.
This is about 20 minutes into the meeting when Rabbi Belsky asserts that someone who says that Chazal & Shu"a that say tola'as sheb'busur is mutar is not applicable for our times is "apikursus mileah". This after Rabbi Karp continually eggs him on by calling him a "meykil" & a "mattir" when Rabbi Belsky holds like the simple reading of the Gemara & Shu"a. Rabbi Karp seizes this opportunity to lash out at Rabbi Belsky saying he is an apikorus for not being m'vatel daas to R Elyashiv(!) & screams that "everything that we talk about...[having a problem & possibly being assur] you have to say is muttar?!? ALTZ ABI MATTIR ZEIN?!?"...
ReplyDeletehttp://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/young-children-working-blueberry-fields-walmart-severs-ties/story?id=8951044
ReplyDeleteThis is another dimension of the Rubashkin chilul Hashem which the Conservative movement is starting to use as a talking point against the frumma.
When blueberry growers were recently caught using children, retailers were falling all over each other to quickly sever ties and stop buying those blueberries.
It was proven that children were working at Agriprocessors under much more dangerous conditions and the company even pleaded guilty, it just could not be proven that Sholom Rubashkin (instead of his brother Heshy who wasn't on trial) actually knew about it. The defense paraded Heshy into the courtroom to show the jurors that the Rubashkin brothers look alike.
But you still have Pinny Lipschutz, rabbonim from Weissmandl to various Litvishe & Chassidishe Rebbes who revise history to say Rubashkin is 100% innocent. All kinds of people are calling a propaganda hotline called Kol Mevaser that brainwashes listeners that Rubashkin was targeted by an "alilas dam" and that the government will soon be arresting all kinds of Yidden on trumped up charges just like they did to Rubashkin.
Has Klal Yisroel lost all sense of sanity?
Where is the rest of the recording?
ReplyDeletePlease post.
Thank you!
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The original tape is about 40 minutes.If someone wants to send me the original, I will be glad to post it
http://vidyid.com/rav-belskys-tshuva-on-fish-worms-and-english-explanation.html
ReplyDeleteSeconding a request for a translation
ReplyDeleteI will try to get it all up iy"h
ReplyDeletehttp://www.zshare.net/download/77334876f573e4c3/
ReplyDeleteComplete audio. Rabbi, how about you give some editorial feedback on this?
Anonymous MLHV"L said...
ReplyDeletehttp://www.zshare.net/download/77334876f573e4c3/
Complete audio. Rabbi, how about you give some editorial feedback on this?
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I am having problems downloading this file. Get the message that the file is corrupt
MLHV"L said...
ReplyDeletehttp://www.zshare.net/download/77334876f573e4c3/
Complete audio. Rabbi, how about you give some editorial feedback on this?
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I haven't succeeded yet in downloading from your link. However I listen to the CD which is cirulating Lakewood.
Rabbi Belsky is a bruising debater. A number of people have commented to me that they were very upset the way Rabbi Karp was treated.
This is presented as a debate between American poskim - who agree with Rav Belsky and Israeli poskim - who don't.
One of the critical issues is who presented what evidence to Rav Eliashiv and Rav Wosner?
ReplyDeleteIt is also interested the comment of Rabbi Reisman that there is a difference between American and Israeli poslim in terms of accepting spontaneous generation or viewing the issue of microscopic versus visual metzius
ReplyDeleteWhy was Rav Belsky reluctant to see Rav Elyashev together with those who are against the fish with worms?
ReplyDeleteRav Belsky was not relucant to meet Rav Eliashiv two weeks after this altercation with Rav Karp.
ReplyDeleteRav Eliashiv's protectors didn't want Rav Belsky to treat Rav Eliashiv the way he did Rav Karp and insisted that the meeting be attended by others who would protect Rav Eliashiv. Rav Belsky knew he wouldn't get a word in in that forum and refused a group meeting
Rav Belsky was not relucant to meet Rav Eliashiv two weeks after this altercation with Rav Karp.
ReplyDeleteRav Eliashiv's protectors didn't want Rav Belsky to treat Rav Eliashiv the way he did Rav Karp and insisted that the meeting be attended by others who would protect Rav Eliashiv. Rav Belsky knew he wouldn't get a word in in that forum and refused a group meeting
Why is this politics as usual in the Rabbinical world? This really bothers me that Rebbeim are not willing to hear each others arguments. The most logical idea should be expressed and if people disagree on THAT then they should disagree not based on whatever nonsense is going on here.
ReplyDeletethis issue can't be reduced to "politics as usual"
ReplyDeleteThere are some solid halachic issues as well as hashkofic ones.
Sorry, I guess I was unclear. The way they are handling it is politics as usual. They should have a calm and meaningful discussion without words like apikores or shouting at each other in uncivilized ways. That is how so many disputes are started. I would like to see people have a real discussion about the issues without throwing around meaningless words and getting back to the halachic issues. That is what I meant. Obviously, the discussion of whether it is kosher or not is important. I was merely talking about the tactics they are using in order to ignore each other's valid points.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/General+News/59924/Rabbi-Gershon-Bess-Makes-Machoah-for-Kovod-HaTorah-Regarding-Worms-In-Fish.html
ReplyDeleteR' Gershon Bess writes in this letter that there is an incorrect rumor going around that Belsky was prevented from speaking to Rav Elyashev by the gabboyim.
Rav Bess has verified that Rav Elyashev himself does not wish to speak to Belsky. It's well known that Rav Elyashev is upset by various things that Belsky has been behind.
And Gershon Tannenbaum may not be the most reliable source, but he writes in the Jewish Press that Rav Elyashev's grandson Aryeh was told by the zayde not to speak with Belsky either.
http://www.thelakewoodscoop.com/news/2010/06/video-hagaon-rav-yecheskel-roth-shlita-and-harav-aharon-walkin-shlita-discuss-worms-in-fish.html
ReplyDeleteVIDEO of the Karelsburg Rav, Rav Yecheskel Roth Shlita and HaravAharon Walkin Shlita, Rosh Hayeshivah of Yeshivas Ohel Simcha of Queens, discussing the worms-in-fish issue, during last night’s Kabolas Panim at the home of R’ Moshe Gestetner. (Scroll down the page for photos).
Rav Bess is the one who started this whole fish issur in the US and by reading his "Macha'a" (read: not willing to debate the halacha so I'll just claim you are insulting gedolim, who, by the way, I gave the information to!) one can see that, at least on this issue, he is not a bar samcha.
ReplyDelete--------------------
There is no doubt that Rav Falk Shlit”a is a very great talmid chochom and Posek and is surely entitled to render a psak, but one must realize that it is a psak that is contradicted by HoRav Elyahisv Shlit”a, HoRav Wozner Shlit”a and other Gedolei Yisroel.------------------------------------------------{so Rav Bess says, I can't debate this with you, Rav Falk, but I don't have to, because anything you say is meaningless because Rav Elyashiv said it is assur. I hope Rav Bess doesn't advocate closing down yeshivos because all we have to know is what Rav Elyashiv said}
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When I was in Eretz Yisroel and met with Rav Vaye, the first question I asked him was: People say the question was not presented properly. Is there any difference between my understanding of the facts pertaining to the question and yours? He agreed that we are “on the same page” with regard to the facts.--------------------------------------{Amazing! And yet still Rav Vaye doesn't agree with you! He must either be a retard or have split personalities, one for you, and one for the rest of the world!}--------------
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Rav Vaye says that all the Gedolim were matir previously. However, all those that are still alive today who were matir then say today that it is forbidden!-------{So Rav Vaye is again, either a liar, demented, or some third tzad}-----------
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It has been reported that Rav Shlomo Miller Shlit”a, The Toronto Rosh Kollel, is amongst the Matirim. This is also inaccurate. HoRav Miller is not matir and only allows one to use the wild salmon if it is ground, for reasons related to bittul.{true Rav Miller says it is better to grind the wild salmon, but he also says that those who eat it without grinding have whom to rely on, and ALL OTHER FISH ARE MUTTAR!!! seehttp://www.matziv.com/pictures/ravshlomoletterbugsinfish }-------------
And I will try to fix the upload later
ReplyDeleteMLHV"L said...
ReplyDeleteAnd I will try to fix the upload later
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finally succeeded in downloading it - thanks
http://yudelstake.blogspot.com/2010/06/fish-update.html
ReplyDeleteThere was meeting in Lakewood yesterday. Among those present at the meeting were Reb Shlomo Miller, Reb Gershon Bess & his son, Members of the Bais Horah, Kloizenberg Rosh kolel.
The outcome was, depending on whom you ask.
Rav Bloominberg showed that the research that Rav Bess based his conclussions on were eroneous & out of context. But they left as friends discussing a sugya.
The story of Yosef Mokir Shabbos will now have to be re-written to exclude the assur fish. Maybe a chicken?
ReplyDelete