Friday, May 29, 2015

Whose Footsteps Do You Hear? Running away from Yiddishkeit at "Footsteps" versus hearing the footsteps of Mashiach

Guest post by RaP

I do not have an in depth knowledge about the "Footsteps" organization, but I have heard enough about it, some of it virtually first-hand from a few sources, over some time, and I have slowly been formulating an opinion about it, not all of it negative.

Yes, it is an organization in New York that works with people who are dropping out of any form of Orthodoxy and works on many levels to "deprogram" them much like deprogramming people coming out of any serious cult. In purely Hashkafic terms it is a center of Kefira and Apikursus and if that is all anyone wants to hear, then sure, that is the end of the discussion and move on, much like if a person becomes a Meshumad and joins an organization of Meshumadim.

But if one wants to look deeper at it, as a sociological, cultural and even, yes, a movement of people born as Jews in reaction to things that have either happened to them or are really and truly going on, then it becomes a lot more complex and challenging to deal with.

Just one example is that no Chasidic community that I know of allows or encourages a proper English education and certainly no college studies either for its own sake to widen one's knowledge or to train for a profession. As you know the way Chasidism is set up today the very thought of going near a secular book is a catastrophe. Etc, etc, etc. So now what happens if a Chasidic kid decides not to be like that? Or add to that a kid gets molested or beaten up and decides to stop being Chasidish. Is that "bad" or a "sin" or is it a normal part of being human and therefore there need be choices and organizations to deal with such people?

Well, as you know, in the Chasidish and hard-core Charedi world there are no such solutions. Therefore, can one blame a kid who says he or she has been abused or beaten up or neglected and lives with all the modern temptations and things around them, and decides to start looking outside of their own Chasidus to explore and then find themselves rejecting their past, and then getting help from the "Footsteps" people to get a high level education that will be accepted for college entrance and with that therapy rooted in the modern outlook that is opposed to the "backwardness" or religion and rejects it totally?

Going off the Derech is complicated and never caused by one reason or factor, but the causes and hence blame can be distributed to everyone concerned, bad parenting by some, a few horrible and abusive teachers, lurking molesters inside and outside the family, who are never stopped, etc etc etc , and not just the final "welcoming committee" at Footsteps who are just rolling out the red carpet as if they were a Hatzola center that for many they are!

Firstly, everyone has Bechira, Hashem gives all of us freedom of choice to choose. It is stated in the Torah, and if someone makes a bad choice they have to live with it. We need to face up to reality that some people CHOOSE to reject Yiddishkeit and even God. That is built into the world by Hashem Himself.

How about the parents and teachers and community who offered no solution beyond "my way or the highway" (often literally)? How about Jewish organizations that spout platitudes but do nothing? How about when Frum kids are abused and then they are not protected enough and often it becomes a scenario of "blame the victim"!? How about it is time to realize that no system of Torah Judaism is a "one size fits all" proposition, and that to live in the world as we know it often requires the acquisition of technical or trade or professional skills that can only be attained through formal secular studies that so much of Charedi Judaism fights against as if they were living in the war against the Haskala of the 18th century when that is long gone and that there are plenty of Charedi Jews especially in America who are professionals and trained technicians, such as doctors, lawyers, accountants, computer programmers, all sorts of physical and educational therapists and not just buyers and sellers of goods and truck drivers and homemakers.

This all leads, or at least should lead to, lots of self-analysis. There is NOTHING that any Frum person can do against the Footsteps organization, it would be like trying to fight people from going to Church if that is what they want to when peaceful Freedom of Assembly and Freedom of Religion and Speech are allowed in the modern democracies that also allow people to be Chasidic and Charedi with those same laws!!

So we must look into ourselves and decide if we see our own faults and if we want to change and do things differently to save our youth and ourselves. Otherwise things like the Off The Derech movement will just mushroom and grow and organizations like Footsteps will keep on sprouting up and offering something while the Frum world twiddles its thumbs, fingers and feet and does nothing really.

Of course, in the long run, Torah-true Yiddishkeit will triumph, just as when various breakaway movements sprung up in the past and then just melted away and assimilated and intermarried. That is what happened to the Sadducees, the Nazarenes, the Karaites, the Reform and that is what will happen to the now growing Off The Derech movement.

But each was and is a challenge and there are various ways of confronting a religious, social, cultural and spiritual challenge.

One way is to shut out the world and live in a self-imposed Ghetto, and another way is to go out and do something to confront it. The Kiruv movement is a good example of how some members of the Frum world have gone out to turn back assimilation and intermarriage, but then again, that is also not on the front burner of the Frum world's main priorities that at this time is still self-absorbed, myopic and preoccupied with too many internal issues and self(ish) interests to worry too much about either Mekareving the Frei or rescuing the growing Off The Derech crowd.

Or am I wrong?

25 comments :

  1. OK RaP, what is your suggestion?

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  2. I would love to know how those who don't agree with this post view the OTD crowd. Do they really think that these kids go off the Derech because they just crave a cheeseburger? (i.e. they don't want to be restricted by Halacha anymore?)


    It seems so clear to me that this just can't be the case, because as a frum person myself I know that the option of being frum and being a נבול ברשות התורה is just so available. Even more so, being raised frum and habitually living within the halacha framework really doesn't at all guarentee one a "spiritual life," i.e. a life dedicated to Hashem and doing good.


    Thus it is so hard for me to understand why someone would need to bother to go through the difficulty of going OTD.
    Lets face it, the community we have set in place really makes it very very difficult to leave. Inertia definitely says STAY. So unless one is driven by "anger," why would one bother to work so hard to leave?

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  3. how many kids go OTD for purely theological reasons?

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  4. does anyone have any real data how many OTD's are purely because of theological or belief reasons?

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  5. It's a meaningless question. No one does anything for any one reason.

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  6. Recently one of the heads of Footsteps posted in a Facebook forum that Footsteps had about 1,000 people revolve through their doors, some to a lesser extent and some to a greater, over the past 12 or so years they've been around.

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  7. Good question and thanks for your curiosity and your trust!


    This post followed from the previous discussion about the Shulem Deen book about his own story of going OTD and from that, his involvement with Footsteps. Rabbi Eidensohn requested a post about it, and he attached the related YouTube video from them which is important to view.


    Hopefully others can join this open discussion and contribute their views.


    If there are any folks affiliated with Footsteps please send in your essays and your take on things, no doubt many should be able to make a good rational case, without getting emotional, and hopefully Rabbi Eidensohn would post their views as part of this discussion.



    For now, let's think about it, and see what we can think of next as you suggested and requested.


    Thanks again!

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  8. just another said "I would love to know how those who don't agree with this post view the OTD crowd. Do they really think that these kids go off the Derech because they just crave a cheeseburger? (i.e. they don't want to be restricted by Halacha anymore?)"


    RaP: Doubtful that any intelligent person thinks simplistically and superficially about this subject. Abandoning one's Yiddishkeit is serious business for all concerned.


    "It seems so clear to me that this just can't be the case, because as a frum person myself I know that the option of being frum and being a נבול ברשות התורה is just so available. Even more so, being raised frum and habitually living within the halacha framework really doesn't at all guarentee one a "spiritual life," i.e. a life dedicated to Hashem and doing good."


    RaP: True.


    "Thus it is so hard for me to understand why someone would need to bother to go through the difficulty of going OTD. Lets face it, the community we have set in place really makes it very very difficult to leave. Inertia definitely says STAY. So unless one is driven by "anger," why would one bother to work so hard to leave?"


    RaP: There are many types of Frum communities, while some may be tolerant of some degree of deviance, others will come down hard and literally throw out anyone who does not abide by all the rules expected of them. Sometimes people do not want to leave but they are tossed out, much like students who are expelled from Yeshivas if they cross certain lines and do things that the leadership will never find as acceptable. Others are driven by all sorts of demons that are as varied as the human condition, so it's never simple as you seem to realize but when it happens it is even more complicated than anyone could imagine. Sometimes families toss out a kid in anticipation of the system doing so. There are all sorts of crazy reasons. There is escape from abuse, sexual and emotional. Many families have "made peace" with the fact that they will have 10 or so kids and one at least will go OTD (USA) or become a "shababnik" (Israel) so that it has become almost weirdly "normal" to expect to raise a Frum family where one or two kids will be "sacrificed" to the street because they're deemed to be a "Rodef" and hey, we all know the Halacha what to do with a Rodef...right...just throw them out on to the street and leave at that...right?....and this process has various forms and manifestations so that basically there are a lot of very Frum people who just look at Footsteps as a reservoir of those who became "Rodfim" and where either expelled or rejected by the Frum communities, and given up on...and now they come with a vengeance with an ability to speak and fire back, as we see with the professional way Footsteps handles things, and it is getting hard for many Frum people to see the results of all the throwing out of the so-called "Rodfim" who just seem like a bunch of misunderstood kids who never had anyone take them seriously and deal with them in a real way. Sure some of them are what mental health people call "borderlines" and some are social misfits, but most are just regular sensitive curious young people living in the modern world who want answers to their questions and want to be taken seriously and not be forced to follow the party hook line and sinker. Now what?!

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  9. Going off the Derech is complicated and never caused by one reason or factor, but the causes and hence blame can be distributed to everyone concerned......and not just the final "welcoming committee" at Footsteps who are just rolling out the red carpet as if they were a Hatzola center

    Well said!

    Just one example is that no Chasidic community that I know of allows or encourages a proper English education and certainly no college studies either for its own sake to widen one's knowledge or to train for a profession.

    A] What age people are we talking about?

    B] What is the average age of the few who unfortunately abandon Judaism?

    My understanding is that they are mostly teens or just turned 20...

    To answer A. Nowadays there are many Chassidish people in their mid 20's and older who attend TTI and Machon L'Parnasa (Turo with a different name). Many Chasiddish Mosdos in Williamsburg and beyond employ these Chassidish people, in their full garb, to run their Title One programs. For a bachur to contemplate collage is "treif". For a Yingerman, as long as there is no sifrei minus and no mingling with the opposite gender involved, it is acceptable.

    I don't know if looking to be financially stable in the futureplays much of a role with any of the "ugehfoorenah".

    a kid gets molested ...and decides to stop being Chasidish.

    People in deep emotional pain; people to whom the world is unfair; people whose close relatives did not do enough to make their world fair are just seeking to get any sort of new start on life, in order to escape their pain and just leave all the pain behind. Sadly, the pain does come along with them.


    These are people who should be viewed as if they're beaten, bloody and are limping around in need of immediate medical attention. They just need emotional care. Forget about their religious stuff - lets just view them as injured humans and give them the care they need.

    How about the parents and teachers and community who offered no solution beyond "my way or the highway" (often literally)?



    Please. The Modern Orthodox experiment has completely failed. 7 out of 10 MO teens admit to texting on Shabbos. 52% drop Shabbos and Kashrus within two years of graduating high school. Trying to emulate the liberal standards of the MO won't exactly get us anywhere good.

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  10. This is a very interesting post by Rap. Let us assume that Hareidim in America are even stricter than previous generations, so why is there such a problem? Again, I am not competing on who loses more or less, but to point out that the very measures of insulating people from a Modern world, are backfiring - so new approaches may be necessary.

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  11. @Eddie I don't understand your point. Are you saying that if Modern Orthodox lose 50% by being open to the secular world and Chareidim lose 10 % by being insulated - then that shows the insulating people backfires?!

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  12. DT, I would agree that MO probably experiences a somewhat higher dropout rate than Chareidim (possibly 25%-50% higher than Chareidi), but I don't believe there's any evidence (as you imply) that the MO dropout rate is 5X the Chareidi rate.

    These numbers are also difficult to compare. Many MO "dropouts" may actually be closer to Conservadox, whereas Charedi dropouts are liable to become very secular and very antagonistic towards Judaism after the Chareidi community ruthlessly expelled them.

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  13. @DT
    It is not at all clear

    a) if the figures are truly representative
    b) what are the mechanism behind people going OTD.
    As i have said before, it is possible to have an MO congregation, where in the first place, only 10 % are actually shomer shabbos. So if the overall congregation "loses" a figure of say 18% to either reform or intermarriage, then you are claiming it represents the MO, who are in fact only the small sector of the overall shul membership.


    The insulation backfires, because many people feel restricted, and quit Judaism altogether, blaming everything on Judaism, rather than the specific lifestyle.
    As one poster argued, he can't understand why someone would bother leaving Judaism and starting with a new culture. if it works for some but not for others, then a new approach might help. Ultimately it is for the Manhigei HaDor to deal with, and not me.
    but a lot of the underlying issues are where a new approach coudl help, and this includes abuse, and here we are proud that you have already pioneered ways in dealing with that issue.

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  14. I would agree that MO probably experiences a somewhat higher dropout rate than Chareidim (possibly 25%-50% higher than Chareidi), but I don't believe there's any evidence (as you imply) that the MO dropout rate is 5X the Chareidi rate.

    OK.

    Q. Is there evidence that 52% of MO high school students drop Shabbos and Kashrus within two years of graduation?
    A. Yes.

    Q. Is there evidence that 7 out of 10 MO teens said that they text on Shabbos?
    A. Yes.

    Q. Is there any sort of evidence that the unfortunate OTD rate is anywhere above 7%?
    A. No.

    Many MO "dropouts" may actually be closer to Conservadox, whereas Charedi dropouts are liable to become very secular and very antagonistic towards Judaism after the Chareidi community ruthlessly expelled them.



    This is irrelevant to the discussion. Additionally, when you use the word "ruthless" to describe Torah-true Jews, your undeniable bias comes shining through.


    Numerically, there are just as many MO dropouts who are antagonistic towards Judaism. Thomas Friedman and so many others of his ilk.

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  15. "no system of Torah Judaism is a "one size fits all" proposition" - This is an excellent point, but furthermore I believe that both the current MO and Chareidi ideological systems are recent inventions, and do not represent the normative rabbinic viewpoints of our great rabbis of the past.

    For example, MO type Jews will often blindly accept corrupt Western ideologies such as "gay" rights, feminism, divorce on demand, etc. without any critical analysis of those ideologies. These MO Jews seem to greatly fear and deny any possibility that there might be evil or injustice within Western culture.

    On the other hand, much of Chassidic or Chareidi Judaism has adopted radical, anti-rationalist Kabbalistic viewpoints (such as viewing the Universe as an illusion or as a minefield of evil "kelipot" hiding G-d), while denying the chochma contained in "secular" wisdoms. Even worse, Chassidic extremists have adopted Christian influenced ideologies such as confessing to a tzaddik and receiving absolution (mentioned in Breslov books), or else belief in non-living messiahs who are somehow directing the world (Chabad meshichistim).

    Contrast the current Chareidi viewpoints with the hakdama to Chovos HaLevavos where R. Bachya ZT"L describes the various wisdoms given to man by the Creator and the benefits of those wisdoms, including the wisdoms of natural science, mathematics, geometry, astronomy etc., in addition to the wisdom of the Torah. Did these Chareidim who went OTD ever hear R. Bachya's rationalist viewpoints?

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  16. Honesty, you seem to be living in a Chareidi fantasy land. Yes, there may be a high dropout rate among MO Jews, but I haven't seen any thorough scientific studies that quote 52%. Your claim of a 7% Chareidi dropout rate cited no evidence to that effect, and I believe the actual number is much higher. If you login to Facebook and do a thorough search (ex-haredim, off the derech, etc.) you will find many FB groups with large numbers of militant, secularist ex-Chareidim.

    The word ruthless does in fact describe how various decent or intelligent Jews, including some of the OTD Jews, have been treated in the Chareidi communities. I have observed "Chareidi" rabbis with long beards publicly insult Jews who simply asked honest questions that these so-called rabbis could not deal with such as what is the age of the Universe. Not to speak of the ruthless treatment of Jews in the Chareidi communities who expose and oppose the rampant corruption.
    http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2012/12/rabbi-nuchem-rosenberg-attacked-with.html

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  17. but furthermore I believe that both the current MO and Chareidi ideological systems are recent inventions, and do not represent the normative rabbinic viewpoints of our great rabbis of the past.

    If you are going to make such a declaration, you should have at least attempted to bring some sort of evidence to support your assertion.

    You are quick to quote the Chovos Halevovos. Great. I suggest you study it again. WHat does he see as our primary responsibility? What does he define as idolatry? Vaguely referencing the first section (without a direct quote!), while ignoring the rest of the book is representative of what, TruthSeekerJew? Mentioning Chabad and Breslov as representative of "Chareidi" ideology is intellectually dishonest.

    Did these Chareidim who went OTD ever hear R. Bachya's rationalist viewpoints?



    It would not make the slightest difference. Do you know any of these who have fallen personally? Pain, pain and, pain. Studying Mono Theology would do nothing for them. Fairies, dragons and movies - an escape from the world of pain - absolutely!

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  18. well said EmesL'Yaakov!"

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  19. Honesty, you seem to be living in a Chareidi fantasy land.

    Thank you for the personal attack. Is this a fill-in for actual facts and data? Is you projecting your emotions on me?

    Yes, there may be a high dropout rate among MO Jews, but I haven't seen any thorough scientific studies that quote 52%.

    The 52% rate comes from Rabbi Steven Pruzansky. Yes, he was soundly criticized for revealing the truth. He quoted an actual study that was chosen to be closeted in order avoid shame.

    Your claim of a 7% Chareidi dropout rate cited no evidence to that effect

    Do you have a different number? Actually, this number includes the druggie mechallei Shabbos in garb.

    The word ruthless does in fact describe how various decent or intelligent Jews, including some of the OTD Jews, have been treated in the Chareidi communities.

    This is stupidity. Actually, me says that "ruthless" is the way the 52% of MO graduates who drop it all were treated; "ruthless" is the 7 out of 10 MO teens are treated. If they are being raise in such a callous fashion as not to properly give them Judaism, then that is ruthless!

    See, the difference between us is that I at least based it on actual numbers, not on some concoction I made up.

    I have observed "Chareidi" rabbis with long beards publicly insult Jews



    I have not. I have also observed some MO "rabbis" use absolutely disgusting language when speaking about their fellow Jews. Just take a look at Harry's silly blog. 85% is criticism of Chareidim. Mostly lies.

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  20. Honest, your comments are further evidence that it is simply non-productive to debate with Chareidim. I mentioned that you cited no evidence for your claim and your very persuasive response is "Do you have a different number?"

    Rabbi Pruzansky directly contradicts your claim here about the dropout rate:
    "The dropout rate in all religious communities is roughly the same."
    http://rabbipruzansky.com/2014/03/24/the-exchange-part-2/

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  21. your comments are further evidence that it is simply non-productive to debate with Chareidim.

    Again, a personal attack. Now you spread your straw man attack on me to include all of those you regretfully dislike.

    I mentioned that you cited no evidence



    I provided you with the evidence. 7 out of ten MO tes text on Shabbos. 52% drop Shabbos and Kashrus within two years of graduation. Ahh, you mean the few Cjhareidim who fall from Yiddishkeit. Yes, you need proof to claim huge percentages. Just like you would need proof to claim that 20% of Harvard grads are murderers. SImple. You have no proof.


    There is a huge difference between a school dropout and those who leave religion.


    Farewell.

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  22. RaP, I fully agree that the OTD problem is a very complex problem and that our focus must not be on cold statistics.

    In general my previous arguments were not intended to validate and kasher the current MO movement. However in terms of the OTD problem, as you seem to have alluded in your remarks about NCSY, MO may be much more capable of dealing with their OTD problem than the Chareidi world. As you mentioned, many Chareidi communities are simply incapable of dealing with the OTD Chareidim in their midst whom I suspect either simply continue wearing the uniform to avoid ruthless shunnings and expulsions, or else they're exposed and ejected from their communities, and they're liable to become militant secularists.

    Even if some OTD Chassidic-Chareidim were inclined to return to some form of Judaism, it might be quite difficult to reintegrate such alienated Chassidic-Chareidi OTDs into the Chareidi world, especially the ones who have become militant secularists. So it may only be possible to re-integate Chassidic OTD (who are so inclined to return to Judaism) with certain serious MO communities, or else with Yeshivish type Baalei Tshuvah communities and shuls.

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  23. Dear RaP: Please follow this analogy.


    Suppose that the Mayor of a large city decides to combat traffic accidents. Should he say that we need not be concerned with the different causes of accidents? Should he say that since accidents are not a "competition" or "Olympics", that we need not be concerned of certain driving practices which cause 52%-70% accident rate? Should we be equally concerned about driving practices that have a 7% accident rate and seek to undue that way of driving and replace it with the way that has a 52-70% accident rate.


    If we indeed care about each individual, we cannot ignore the stats. If we care about creating new feel-good measures without concern about their effectiveness, then we will mockingly dismiss the facts.

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  24. Honesty, why do you continue with largely irrelevant arguments about largely non-scientific statistics that tell us very little? Do these statistics count as an OTD MO a Jew who keeps Shabbos 95% but he does text on Shabbos, but consider Chareidim who fully keep Shabbos but engage in illegal business practices to be on the derech?

    Rather I find interesting the statements in the video above. Many of the OTD Chareidim don't seem to be atheists by conviction, but they do seem to feel trapped in a straightjacket due to the non-halachic imperatives in the Chareidi "lifestyle" such as requirements to learn all day instead of working, prohibition of secular education, strong pressure to marry in their teens, no birth control ever allowed, etc.

    Judaism cannot be one size fits all. Wouldn't these OTD Chareidim be more amenable to Judaism if they had grown up in a "modern Yeshivish" or "frum MO" environment?

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  25. why do you continue with largely irrelevant arguments

    What exactly makes it "irrelevant" - is it your inability to deal with it?

    Do these statistics count as an OTD MO a Jew who keeps Shabbos 95% but he does text on Shabbos

    The 52% does not include people who "keep Shabbos 95%" (whatever that means!).

    The 7 out of 10 is a specific poll to texting. If a person violates Shabbos, how deep is their commitment to Judaism?

    consider Chareidim who fully keep Shabbos but engage in illegal business practices

    1) Consider the significant amount of MO people who engage in illegal business practices.

    2) If you are unable to differentiate between wholesale, widespread Chillul Shabbos and some people engaging in "illegal business practices" (whatever that means), then that indicates a complete misunderstanding of Judaism.

    Rather I find interesting the statements in the video above.

    That is your choice. Trusting statements in such a video is foolish, but it is your choice. This video is indicative of nothing.

    but they do seem to feel trapped in a straightjacket due to the non-halachic imperatives in the Chareidi "lifestyle"

    Yep. In MOdern Orthodoxy they could of dropped it all in an easier fashion without feeling guilty.

    Wouldn't these OTD Chareidim be more amenable to Judaism if they had grown up in a "modern Yeshivish" or "frum MO" environment?



    Absolutely not! They would of been amongst the Thomas Freedmans and the 52% !

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