"Who does Rabbi Dov Lipman of Yesh Atid speak for?" was exactly the implied question of Degel HaTorah Knesset member Rabbi Asher who screamed and ranted that Rabbi Dov Lipman is "not Charedi" and should stop pretending to speak as a Charedi.
It seems the Degel HaTorah people think it's their job to maul the Yesh Atid people in the Knesset in front of the cameras which only makes the Degel HaTorah people look bad and boosts the ratings of Yesh Atid.
Once again the conflicts between the liberal-minded Ner Yisrael (in Baltimore, Maryland, USA) educated type of younger disciples of Rav Yaakov Weinberg z"l and the Israeli-educated Charedim comes to the fore. Kind of like the Liberals versus the Conservatives of the Charedi world facing off without faking that they like each other. It is as if finally, after a very, very long time, an Aish HaTorah softy smiley kindly type of kiruv rabbi (which Rabbi Lipman was for a number of years) is coming face to face and confronting an Israeli hard core tough and gruff Charedi politician such as Rabbi Asher who was mayor of Bnai Brak and was appointed by Rav Shteinman.
Once again, it is the Yesh Atid team, here represented by the obviously very sincere and earnest Rabbi Lipman who comes out ahead in the debate with Rabbi Asher of Degel HaTorah.
The unfortunate thing is that Rabbi Asher launched into a very personal attack against Rabbi Lipman. He should have stuck to the issues and cited Halachas or rulings of gedolim, but instead he just bluntly tried to bludgeon Lipman into a pulp which naturally did not work, since Lipman is tough enough in his own way (his father was a US Judge don't forget so he is no patsy) and he has already been used to being physically attacked in Jerusalem by Charedim for his advocacy. Lipman on the other hand was OBVIOUSLY prepared for such an uncalled for personal attack at any time and whipped out a list of Torah sources and correct points in Hashkofa, while in the background the hard-core cynical politicians in the Knesset stood around not knowing how to digest such intellectual honesty.
Lipman is immune to Charedi verbal abuse just as he is immune to physical attacks from them. It is shame that Rabbi Asher wants to continue in the Knesset a style that has not worked in the back alleys of Jerusalem. More civility and KIRUV is called for, not more vilification and name calling!!!
The issues at hand, about women praying at the Kotel, is now moot because the Israeli courts and obviously some smart Israeli politicians have managed to stop this issue from blowing up.
But there was really no need to pounce on Lipman personally since it only makes him MORE popular. The real question is who gave Lipman semicha and is it valid, if not have it pulled, otherwise respect his credentials, and who allowed him to become a rabbi in the first place, if he is then he is entitled to respect not just as rabbi but as a human being.
The answer is that there are in fact liberal American Charedim, they are even in Israel. These are part of the "new Charedim" that the old time Israeli Charedim feel threaten by them, but they will have to adjust to this new wave of olim and live with them not just try to trample them into the dust.
Otherwise the old-style Charedim are going to be sitting in the opposition for a very long time and more people like Dov Lipman will win the PR war because they are genuinely nice and caring. They know how to do GOOD KIRUV, and it's obvious that while Yair Lapid and Dov Lipman do not share the same religious outlooks and levels, in fact one is an American-trained Orthodox rabbi and one is a secular Israeli Yuppie TV celebrity, yet they found common ground in this NEW POLITICAL REALITY in which the ousted Charedim are still trying to figure out where they belong.
What Rav Lipman is saying here might be totally irrelevant. The issue is not what the Kotel was historically. The issue is what is (at least the area under control of the Wall authority) it now. Does that area have a status of being a Beit Haknesset today? All discussions that would follow would depend on the answer to that question no?
ReplyDeleteI agree. Lipman was way off mark because the Kossel is now a shul. Also, he is totally off mark in his rebuttal of Asher because citing the word "chared" from a verse has zero applicability to its definition in the modern social scene. Also, his claim that he is working with Lapid in order to help charedim is ludicrous. Perhaps some time he'll produce a more serious presentation of who he is and what he is trying to achieve.
ReplyDeleteFor a fuller exposition along the same lines:
Deletehttp://yamakedma.blogspot.co.il/2013/05/dov-lipmans-problem-with-hebrew.html
For a post along the same lines:
Deletehttp://yamakedma.blogspot.co.il/2013/05/dov-lipmans-problem-with-hebrew.html
Now I have another question. For Chareidim who hold that the Israeli government has no true halachik sovereignity over the land of Israel. The Kotel was made into a Beit Haknesset under the auspices of the Israeli government. According that shita, then there should presently be no kedushas beit haknesset at that sight.
ReplyDeleteThe question that I just asked does not only apply to people of the Badatz Eidat Hachareidit but to those Chareidim that hold like the shitta of the Chazon Eish regarding participation in elections and the government as a form of self defense.
ReplyDeleteDoes that area have a status of being a Beit Haknesset today?
ReplyDeletehari krishnas are allowed to pray in your local beit knesset? what about christians holding christian symbols? you hold army ceremonies in your shul?
Mr. Waxman, what exactly is your question?
Deletenone of the stuff i listed happens in a shul; ergo the kotel does not have the halachic status of a shul.
DeleteThe kotel does have two shuls they are located within the cave area, entrance through the men's area. The outdoors has never been allocated as a shul.
DeleteBen,
DeleteJust because the State permits things at the Kotel which does not happen in my shul does not mean that it is not a synagogue. Prior to 67, the Kotel was a (small) open space for all to pray. It now houses permanent Aron Kodesh and set davening times. There are halachas pertaining to the kedusha of the Aron and those are found in hilchot bet kenesset. Seems like a shul to me.
My local synagogue does hold ceremonies. The local day school has its graduation in the main sanctuary and the pope visited Park East synagogue wearing a christian symbol. Did either of these two synagogues lost its status as a shul?
Perhaps Israel can designate the caves as a shul and allow the plaza to return to its previous use.
rav raboniwitz, the rav of the kotel, is the big defender of "the kotel not being a synagogue". in his testimony before some knesset committee last week, he said that because he insists on allowing activities there, activities which would ordinarily be forbidden in a synagogue, his life has been threatened and his property damaged.
Deletepost script to the last one: just in case you were wondering, it isn't the women of the wall who have threatened his life and slashed his tires.
Deleteyou r on the $,most american orthodox are more liberal and the old is shaking in their pants
ReplyDeleteFor those following this subject, please see related posts that have subsequently been posted on this blog:
ReplyDelete* Who does Rabbi Dov Lipman of Yesh Atid speak for? (February 14, 2013)
* Who does Rabbi Dov Lipman of Yesh Atid speak for? Part 3. (May 9, 2013)
* Rav Aharon Feldman says Rabbi Dov Lipman's hashkofa is not that of Yeshiva Ner Yisroel or its former rosh yeshiva (May 7, 2013)
* Rabbi Dov Lipman's response to Rav Ahron Feldman's personal attack (May 8, 2013).
Question do the Women at the Wall support the right of Jews to pray on the Temple Mount. After all if freedom of religion is important then the freedom of any Jew to pray on the Temple Mount should be preserved.
ReplyDeletethey have mixed messages. someone i know via twitter did some checking and found that some support pray on the mount, some don't.
Delete