DT said:
Perhaps a new perspective is needed. Are you willing?
Joseph said:
I have thought about this and have also looked into all your previous posts, you have really left no stone unturned. In the beginning you even posted a defense for tropper, there was no real response. You asked tropper to apologize to reduce the chilul hashem in the world, there was no response. You posted a wonderful post; "Sounds of silence or who is the 800 lb gorilla in the room?" that post couldn't have been written better, you write there that tropper seems to have some friends still defending him, which sounds absurd. You write that the tapes have been 100% clarified. You quoted in a new post Rav Sternbuch, which is common sense, there is nothing more to be written in my opinion.
This last post of yours has drawn almost 100 responses, more than ever,(I don't know why this one triggered people more than previous ones) but a lot of it is going round in circles with the defenders constantly puling the wool over everyone's eyes. Like someone wrote before, if the holocaust can be denied then so can troppers guilt. Maybe you add this to the list of conspiracy theories, that you once posted. Its similar to the tactics that Hitler YMSH used in the early 1930`s, i.e. if you say a lie enough times then it becomes the truth. (this is the power he used to convince the german people of all his dirty theories and plans) This tactic is being deployed here and is becoming more widespread as the time goes on, obviously they are hoping to have some results via this method.
I would therefore advise you not to lend a hand to this dirty trick, keep yourself clean and above the water. Eventually the truth will prevail, as it always does, this took some years of your fighting to reveal this menuval, but now the truth is really out for everyone to see and hear.
Perhaps a new perspective is needed. Are you willing?
Joseph said:
I have thought about this and have also looked into all your previous posts, you have really left no stone unturned. In the beginning you even posted a defense for tropper, there was no real response. You asked tropper to apologize to reduce the chilul hashem in the world, there was no response. You posted a wonderful post; "Sounds of silence or who is the 800 lb gorilla in the room?" that post couldn't have been written better, you write there that tropper seems to have some friends still defending him, which sounds absurd. You write that the tapes have been 100% clarified. You quoted in a new post Rav Sternbuch, which is common sense, there is nothing more to be written in my opinion.
This last post of yours has drawn almost 100 responses, more than ever,(I don't know why this one triggered people more than previous ones) but a lot of it is going round in circles with the defenders constantly puling the wool over everyone's eyes. Like someone wrote before, if the holocaust can be denied then so can troppers guilt. Maybe you add this to the list of conspiracy theories, that you once posted. Its similar to the tactics that Hitler YMSH used in the early 1930`s, i.e. if you say a lie enough times then it becomes the truth. (this is the power he used to convince the german people of all his dirty theories and plans) This tactic is being deployed here and is becoming more widespread as the time goes on, obviously they are hoping to have some results via this method.
I would therefore advise you not to lend a hand to this dirty trick, keep yourself clean and above the water. Eventually the truth will prevail, as it always does, this took some years of your fighting to reveal this menuval, but now the truth is really out for everyone to see and hear.
Just a quick note. I've posted on this blog under the screen name "Joseph" for a couple years. The above post (of this thread and an earlier thread today) is that of another "Joseph", who has posted on this blog under that name for the first time today (to the best of my recollection. And I do read this blog regularly.)
ReplyDeleteI don't mind all that much that someone else is using the same screen name, as it is relatively common, but I do want to point out to the readership that it is someone else.
You ignore that most of the 100+ comments not written by Antitropperite were not defending Tropper but were pointing out that the evidence is overstated, leaves important questions unanswered, and that it is irresponsible not to report with the appropriate caveats.
ReplyDeleteThe tone, level of paranoia and the mad convergence on any comment that questions this blog's party line is very troubling. Daas Torah is not about stifling questions. This is clearly a matter of personal politics, regardless of the evidence.
Ad kan.
How right you are Joseph!
ReplyDelete1.if you say a lie enough times then it becomes the truth.
I received this email last year in response to my criticism of EJF on this blog(yes someone figured out it was me):
"ejf is under rabbi Elyashiv, and this is the way ppl are getting converted now in the states. the Montreal rabbinate is on the same page,"
2.(this is the power he used to convince the german people of all his dirty theories and plans) -
The German people did not need any convincing. Hitler copied his ideas in Mein Kampf from Martin Luther, the founder of the Protestant (ie. Lutheran) Church. See "On Jews and their Lies", Luther's dirty little book about the Jews was Hitler's inspiration.
3. This tactic is being deployed here and is becoming more widespread as the time goes on, obviously they are hoping to have some results via this method.
The majority of American Orthodox Rabbis have performed conversions to permit intermarriages for decades. That is why so few American Jewish leaders expressed any alarm when Tropper and EJF came on the scene. Tropper will blow over, just as Jimmy Swaggart's moment of fame passed. But televangelism has survived and so will "Born Again Evangelical Judaism".
Thanks to the influence of Christian Zionism upon World Jewry, proselytizing to increase "Jewish numbers" as well as conversions to permit intermarriage are now part of the Jewish nationalism.
These are not part of the Jewish religion mind you, but sometimes it seems as those who still wish to simply practice the Jewish religion (vs. Evangelical Born Again Judaism) are becoming as scarce as hen's teeth.
Once again its time that the Rabbonim opposed to EJF publish a clear psak - without it, the movement to stop Prostelizing to the goim will not stop. Khlal Yisroel are waiting to hear from our Gedolim.
ReplyDeletederanged individual says
ReplyDeleteshmeltzer and his brothers are defending tropper
this is not a personal attack this is information that kehilla was never told about shmeltzer
he has protected molesters in the past including one that currently learns in the kolel and is welcomed with open arms
he makes a huge salary and is unaccountable as the board that he has on his stationary is not the banking board
it truly is a private controlled by him kolel so you would never know what he is doing with tropper
if this makes him uncofortable it should
we are allowed to question authority figures when they behalve innapropriately like they are hiding something
and ask the kolel what shmeltzer has with tropper
Someone needs to bring Rav Reuven Feinstein to his senses and get him to leave EJF. Who can talk sense to him?
ReplyDeletejersey girl for nasi/em bais din!
ReplyDeleteDanny, The minute Tropper stops signing checks over to Reb Reuvein and others is when some sense will be knocked into him and other rabbeyem.
ReplyDeleteFact is Tropper still runs Horizons, and that is where all the EJF money is being funneled to and fro.
Hopefully the governmet will soon free Horizons account after the federal investigation. Tropper will be kicked off as Rosh Yeshiva of Kol Yaakov, and his wife will go back to work for the insurance company and support him like the good old days. Or he can continue his new found job of being a pimp.
CT-
ReplyDeleteOnce again, deflection will change reality.
Where EXACTLY are the tapes overstated? What questions EXACTLY are left unanswered?
Why would you believe the tapes need to be questioned? Tropper himself has made no such demand, nor has he denied their authenticity or content.
Are you qualified to question the veracity of the tapes? Are you qualified to dismiss Rav Sternbuch's conclusions? Are you unambiguously condemning those rabbonim who have voted with their feet and walked out on Tropper motzei shabbos?
Simply having an opinion or making assertions does not make that opinion or those assertions equal- especially when those opinions or assertions are predicated on deceit and deflection.
As for your remarks that personal politics are driving these discussions, you are probably right.
There are families, individuals and children that have been been hurt by Tropper's recklessness and phoniness. There are kehillas and rabbonim and talmidim that are at odds because of Tropper's gaiva and deceit. It doesn't get more personal than that.
You may be well meaning but it is clear you that real Daas Torah eludes you.
Our chinuch is expressly about preparing us to make choices and decisions in how we live our lives.
As of late, we are witnessing the Islamification of yiddishkeit (and remarks such as yours only prove the point)- that is, we are told 'no, you don't have to think, we'll think for you. We will decide how you should live your life and we demand your unquestioning loyalty'. Question us and you are a traitor to yiddishkeit and your community. Question our decisions and you are a traitor'
A religiosity that loses touch with real life is a false religiosity.
Unlike other religions, ours is primarily about compassion. Tropper, et al, have forgotten that or they have abandoned the notion altogether. They want to replace what we have with a 'supra' frumkeit, one which they and they alone will oversee- and profit from.
They would not tolerate another SR Hirsh or JB Soloveichik, the Lubavitcher rebbe or countless others that have contributed mightily to the royal tapestry of what is yiddishkeit.
I suppose there is good news. The Troppers of this world will always graciously and gratefully take their money until there was no more left to take. Then they would have the likes of you destroy them.
'Clean hands' are very very important to the likes of Tropper.
UOJ is confirming that Chaim Blum in Fallsburg is indeed R' Elya Ber's nephew who was handpicked to succeed him at EJF as a cover up when the bad publicity got to him.
ReplyDeletehttp://613sfha.org/id3.html
Here is a picture of Blum in the Fallsburg beis medrash.
His father used to own the Armon Terrace hall on New Utrecht in Boro Park.
Hegmon instead of Rabbi --- One thought seeing as the Tropper debacle and chilul Hashem reverberates. We are so close to Chanuka when it appears this whole sordid episode was unravelling. In the excesses that we remember on Chanuka we recall the Hegmon who subjected all the besulos (virgins) to his whims prior to their marriages. Would it not be appropriate in this case to replace the title Rabbi with Hegmon???
ReplyDeleteI guess I'm a 3rd 'Joseph' and a 'Johnny-come-lately' to the 'party'. (I've posted a few comments these last 1-2 weeks).
ReplyDeleteshmeltzers kolel is not a community kolel
ReplyDeleteit is a privately held enterprise
he owns it lock stock and barrell
you will never know his chesbonos
and the money he got from tropper and horizons
he takes a huge salary to supervise 7 men learning in the kolel plus all his expenses
how many of you would like a 150 K package to watch 7 guys being paid to learn anyhow
the fact that the convicted sex offender seigel learns in the kolel is a disgrace butnot as big a disgrace as shm,eltzers hidden dealings with tropper
in fact horizons agent in nmb kaplan goes to the kolel as well
>>There are families, individuals and children that have been been hurt by Tropper's recklessness and phoniness. There are kehillas and rabbonim and talmidim that are at odds because of Tropper's gaiva and deceit. It doesn't get more personal than that.
ReplyDeleteYou may be well meaning but it is clear you that real Daas Torah eludes you.
Our chinuch is expressly about preparing us to make choices and decisions in how we live our lives.
As of late, we are witnessing the Islamification of yiddishkeit (and remarks such as yours only prove the point)- that is, we are told 'no, you don't have to think, we'll think for you. We will decide how you should live your life and we demand your unquestioning loyalty'. Question us and you are a traitor to yiddishkeit and your community. Question our decisions and you are a traitor'
A religiosity that loses touch with real life is a false religiosity.
Unlike other religions, ours is primarily about compassion. Tropper, et al, have forgotten that or they have abandoned the notion altogether. They want to replace what we have with a 'supra' frumkeit, one which they and they alone will oversee- and profit from.
They would not tolerate another SR Hirsh or JB Soloveichik, the Lubavitcher rebbe or countless others that have contributed mightily to the royal tapestry of what is yiddishkeit.<<
This hits the nail on the head. i wish it could be enshrined at the entrance of every frum neighborhood!
Anonymous -
ReplyDeleteYou missed my whole point. I think the tapes strongly tend to show guilt. However, it has not been asserted -- not by Rabbi Eidensohn, not by Mekubal, not by anyone else -- that the tapes have been professionally and conclusively authenticated. We've talked about the cost and technology of a fictional reproduction, the technology and cost of proper authentication, and there have been recitals of off the record experts who think they're real, but have not done proper analyses. It may indicate guilt, but none of that is proof.
Thus the reliance on shtika kehodaah, as weak a proof of underlying truth as can be asserted. Why? Because it relies on a lack of imagination. Any plausible reason for silence undermines it. I do not believe that Rav Sternbuch would have said what he is claimed to have said had he been informed that silence may be on the advice of counsel. I have no idea if this is on the advice of counsel because I am not Tropper's counsel. But again, because it is reasonably conceivable, it undermines the logic of shtikah kehodaah.
Take a look at Mekubal's recent post explaining that he hasn't had time to do an investigation. No one here believes further inquiry is necessary. I believe the appropriate action at this point, with what is known now, is to be choshed that the allegations are true, but refrain from shoveling dirt on Tropper's grave.
And don't preach to me about unquestioned loyalty. Rather than consider or address any concerns raised in the earlier thread, you deny they exist.
Worse, you deny that it is appropriate to even question, as you write: "Why would you believe the tapes need to be questioned?...Are you qualified to question the veracity of the tapes? Are you qualified to dismiss Rav Sternbuch's conclusions? Are you unambiguously condemning those rabbonim who have voted with their feet and walked out on Tropper motzei shabbos?"
I suspect these are rhetorical questions and you couldn't care less what I answer, but here you go: 1) because drastic responses need to be based on proven facts, not presumptions or reputation, 2) no, but I am qualified to withhold judgment until someone proves their veracity, 3) No, but I question the premise presented to him, whether what he said is being given a different life online, and whether he would ask Rabbi Eidensohn to remove it if he actually read this blog, 4) I didn't know that was true, and if so, of course not. Depending on the context, I too may have walked out if I felt that the event was intended to manipulate unwarranted support.
CT-
ReplyDeleteWhy on earth would the tapes have to be authenticated? Who is making the accusations that the tapes have been fabricated? And if indeed the tapes are being questioned, it bears knowing EXACTLY who is questioning their veracity and whher or not the questioner is even QUALIFIED to call the tapes into question.
Further, neither Tropper nor SO have not denied the legitimacy, accuracy and credibility of the tapes- who are you to do so?
Just because YOU say there are concerns about the tapes doesn't make YOUR concerns relevant or germane.
Your other remarks are just plain silly. Are you questioning NASA about the moon landings simply because Hollywood can make a very realistic movie about space trace travel?
Unless and until Tropper or SO publicly deny the authenticity of the tapes, any and speculations on your part are no more than fantasy.
I could go on but you get the point- I hope.
Here is a better picture of the stooge/ figure head, Rabbi Chaim Blum, who is now the "leader" of EJF.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.613sfha.org/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/p1010758.jpg
If you look close enough you can see Tropper's puppet strings attached to his arms. What a SHAM!!
Clearly thinking, let me state again here. I have had the tapes professionally authenticated by contacts and business associates of mine in the security/fraud detection industry. The only thing is that they will not put their name to the authentication unless their fees have been paid. The tapes have been authenticated. You keep seeming to read over that point, or intentionally miss it, I am not sure which, but here it is again, the tapes have been authenticated.
ReplyDeleteWith his name popping up all over the place someone should look into why Yakov Barros has to leave San Francisco and why he did not get the job in the shul there where he was assistant rabbi for many years.
ReplyDeletemekubal said...
ReplyDeleteClearly thinking, let me state again here. I have had the tapes professionally authenticated by contacts and business associates of mine in the security/fraud detection industry.
MEKUBAL;
PLEASE WRITE THIS AGAIN IN CAPITAL LETTERS-I THINK PEOPLE DONT SEE.
anonymous -- you have it in your head that this is some kind affirmative defense. You present the tapes. He disproves them or he is guilty. Thank God you don't run the world. An accusation has to be founded on facts, and it is appropriate to question until their authenticity is resolved.
ReplyDeletemekubal -- Obviously, if you're satisfied that the tapes are authentic following proper analysis, then I wouldn't urge you to act as though they were fakes.
I myself take what you say with reservations -- it's an unsupported statement by someone with an ax to grind. At this point no one stands behind the fact that they are authentic, or what the qualifications of your business associates are.
I hope it's clear that I'm not defending Tropper or advocating covering anything up. However, I think many posts and comments have been flat out irresponsible and blatantly ill-informed.
mekubal - I'm not going back to check your previous posts, but you do realize though that if you think shtikah kehodaah is remotely relevant, you indicate that you don't have full confidence in the tapes.
ReplyDeleteAs has been mentioned earlier, Barros was involved in a kashrus scandal in San Francisco.
ReplyDeleteI know one of the rabbonim who called Tropper to complain about his talmid.
Tropper made it sound like the guy was in his yeshiva max. 3 weeks and barely remembers him.
Shortly thereafter, Barros is honored at the Kol Yaakov dinner and it's rumored that his new job in South Fallsburg became available after Tropper worked with R' Elya Ber to get rid of the previous rov.
At Horizons/Kol Yaakov they told a complainant about misconduct by Rabbi Tropper to write about it to Rabbi Tropper! The cover up continues and why isnt more being done to protect Jews from falling into Leib Tropper's traps?
ReplyDeletehttp://frumfollies.wordpress.com/2009/12/27/the-fox-guarding-the-chicken-coop-horizonskol-yaakov-funnels-complaints-about-tropper-to-%E2%80%93-you-guessed-it-%E2%80%93-tropper/
I suspect that "clearly thinking" is not an unwitting drey kop but rather a troll who is purposely trying to distract everyone from the real issue which is Tropper's guilt.
ReplyDeleteTrolls are known to inhabit various blogs and chat boards for publicly traded stocks. Getting everyone sidetracked sometimes has it's rewards.
Yerachmiel, you have a lot of nerve assuming that Rav Eidensohn & mekubal don't care about Tropper's victims and even more nerve for linking to your absurd theory here.
ReplyDelete"I suspect that "clearly thinking" is not an unwitting drey kop but rather a troll who is purposely trying to distract everyone from the real issue which is Tropper's guilt."
ReplyDeleteWait, I thought guilt was established. Done. How much focus do you need to re-establish a settled issue again and again? And when I succeed in momentarily distracting everyone from rehashing guilt with my lengthy purposely obtuse comments, I'm doing what? Dumping shares in EJF? Nice.
Didn't Tropper admit it through his lawyer?
ReplyDeleteI myself take what you say with reservations -- it's an unsupported statement by someone with an ax to grind. At this point no one stands behind the fact that they are authentic, or what the qualifications of your business associates are.
ReplyDeleteI hope it's clear that I'm not defending Tropper or advocating covering anything up.
What ax to grind? I detest pimps but aside from that I have no personal interest in Tropper.
No you don't appear to be trying to help cover up for Tropper at all. You simply consistently attack every piece of evidence presented. Why in the world would anyone think that you are on his side?
Those who want to deny the truth will always find a way. Rubashkin claims the Federal government manufactured evidence against him. You claim that a Millionare expended a considerable amount of his fortune to manufacture evidence against Tropper.
Even if I were to put out the cash to have an organization stand behind the authentication, you still wouldn't believe. After all since I paid them and I have this supposed ax to grind, of course the results will come back positive. If at some point a prosecutor decides to press charges, then of course their own crime labs also cannot be trusted.
Aside from being a Tropper supporter you demonstrate one of the primary problems within Judaism today. Dan L'Kaf Zecut has been taken to an unhealthy extreme. No Jew can ever be guilty of anything or ever deserving punishment by anyone.
Jews get caught smuggling drugs, it isn't their fault and how dare a country want to prosecute them for disobeying their laws.
A Jew sells state secrets to China, Pakistan, South Africa, Israel and attempts to do so to Australia and the Soviet Union. Clearly he is a Zionistic hero who was only operating in the best interests of Israel, and how dare he be given a prison sentence which expires in 2011... He need to be pardoned.
A Jew molests hundreds of children. Of course it wasn't as serious as these now off the derech children are claiming. That is just an excuse for their own deviance. How dare anyone file a complaint or desire to prosecute.
A Rabbi gets caught on tape forcing a woman to prostitute herself and it becomes clear that this is a pattern. Of course the evidence is all fabricated, how dare anyone try to hold him responsible for his actions.
The primary problem with Judaism is the same problem with the rest of the society. Everyone is too caught up shouting rhetoric to listen to what anyone else has to say. The fact that people who view the world from the same angle can congregate online and feed off each other exacerbates the problem in this little corner of the Jewish world.
ReplyDeleteYour comment should be enshrined at the gate of the Jewish blogosphere. You start with Tropper and end with espionage to attack a point I never made. You're talented, but disingenuous.
"Dan L'Kaf Zecut has been taken to an unhealthy extreme. No Jew can ever be guilty of anything or ever deserving punishment by anyone." Go back and read.
That has to be the epitome of chutzpah.
ReplyDelete"(un)Clearly thinking" calling mekubal disingenuous.
You start with Tropper and end with espionage to attack a point I never made. You're talented, but disingenuous
ReplyDeleteI did not realize that it was disingenuous to point out that you are defending Tropper while attempting to deny it. Or that your claims of Tropper's innocence and the fabrication of evidence is no different than the many other cases that I listed.