Is abuse an issue today because today's children are more delicate and easily damaged?
R’ Dessler(Michtav M’Eliyahu 3:361): ...My nephew told me that he saw in a sefer that even if the child obeys his parents it is still proper to find an excuse in order to hit him at least a small amount. … the Ibn Ezra (Shemos 20:14) has written that it is not relevant to talk about the love of a peasant to the king’s daughter. Also when the king punishes the peasant with a beating the peasant never thinks about taking revenge against the king and the only lesson he learns from being punished is to be more submissive. That is because it is obvious that he is totally subordinate to the king and the king has the right to punish - but not him. Similar when it is ingrained in a child’s heart the idea that the father is the ruler and total master over him and that he is subservient to his father then because of this subservience he will never learn to hit others just because his father hits him. However our education has become corrupted because the teachers now think that they need to be friends of their students and parents also think this and everything centers on the independence of the children. Because of this, when a father beats his son, the son will retaliate and hit his father or his small brothers… However the secular researchers in their search for new understanding and their desire to destroy the principle of education which were known even by non‑Jews and whose source is in G‑d’s Torah and Prophets - produce things which bring about a reversal of all these basic principles. They are educating future Nazis and brazen people. From this we see to what degree it is necessary to be careful with all aspects of innovation of the secular researchers concerning psychology and education and it is necessary to evaluate and ascertain whether their approach contradicts the words of Chazal and the Rishonim or Jewish practice which itself is Torah. If contradictions are found it is necessary to reject complete all their filthy innovations and not accept anything from them without first examining it with sharp examination and to evaluate it in the light of Torah and Chazal and the words of the gedolim of the Rishonim and Achronim.
Pardes Yosef(Shemos 15:26):Just as we find that medical treatment used in previous generations are not applicable today because they are harmful, so too we find with psychological and educational programs. We are no longer able to utilize corporal punishment and abusive treatment as they did in the past. That is because we find that instead of producing improvements they actually weaken Jewish society. So if previous generation were not burned even with boiling water, we find danger even in using lukewarm water. Therefore treatment and education needs to be mild and patient because the words of the sages are heard when presented pleasantly (Koheles 9:17).
how exactly are they educating future nazis?
ReplyDeleteWhy should we accept Rav Dessler as an expert on Psychology?
The facts actually refute his claims.
The use of corporal punishment has been widespread unitl only recent years. Even in my schooldays in England in the 80s it was acceptable.
Did Germany and the Cossacks, and all the previous murderers, the Spanish not punish their children? And that is hwo they decided to murder Jews instead?
And howabout the Islamic world, where the culture of violence and corporal punsihment is still rife. Are these the same people who murder and blow up buses in Yerushalayim? Why, did Arafat, on advice of Neturei Karta pass an edict not to punish their children when they are growing up?
Rav Dessler's moshol about a king and peasant is longer relevant. Rav Dessler lived at a time when royal governments predominated. Internet-fueled democracy has replaced most authoritarian governments.
ReplyDeleteRav Shamshon Rafael Hirsch and Rav Hayim Dovid Halevy have a different view of corporal punishment, as appears in this Tradition article, authored by Rabbi Ronnie Warburg:
"R. Halevy writes: '...everything is dependent upon the educational character of the individual,
the locale, societal conditions and the like, and the use of physical force for education, even though it is halakhically permitted, may not achieve its purpose. For R. Halevy, 'societal conditions' can be invoked as a factor in rendering a decision. If these conditions reflect a disapproval of the use of force in an educational setting, R. Halevy posits, halakha ought to reflect the societal consensus regarding this matter.
Interestingly, Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch, a nineteenth century arbiter and educator, arrives at a similar conclusion, albeit from a different perspective. He observes: 'We will be the last ones to recommend corporal punishment and we do not tend to agree with the opinion that a teacher who does not know
how to control ongoing incidents in the school without meting out
physical force is the appropriate teacher. This matter especially applies to parents. If the child conditions himself to his parental criticism due to his fear of the potential use of force...his ethical impulse will be compromised and will fail to be attentive to his teacher’s directives...'
For R. Hirsch, tolerance for corporal punishment is a highly problematic stance. The practice impairs the halakhic sensitivity of the child. Utilizing his intellectual perceptions and without recourse to empirical
evidence which indicates that the imposition of force promotes immoral behavior, R. Hirsch opts for nonviolent alternatives for educating children. Both R. Hirsch and R. Halevy fail to endorse the employment of physical force in the classroom. Whereas for R. Hirsch, the power of the intellect (i.e., sevara) serves as the grounds for rendering his decision,
R. Halevy utilizes societal reality as a factor in his halakhic calculus. In effect, the system allows each arbiter to choose between competing rationales (e.g., sevara vs. social realia) as grounds for declining to invoke the talmudic norm."
As far as I understand, the typical nazis got a quite authoritarian education from their parents. I do not think that their problem was "too much laxity".
ReplyDeleteThis is a text full of assumptions that are probably not true.
Who publishes such things in the name of Tora?
"even if the child obeys his parents it is still proper to find an excuse in order to hit him at least a small amount. …"
ReplyDeleteIsn't this the epitome of violence and abuse?
There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding. There once was a time when corporal punishment and authoriatian upbringings were the normal and were considered desirable. The pendulum has swung the other way.
ReplyDeleteThe issue is that todays' gentle and child centered approach is viewed as so obvious that the previous is viewed as primitive and outrageous.
This presents a problem as the view of Chazal, Rihsonim and most Achronim is incompatible with this modern view.
In sum, is the current view the height of progress or is it a temporary fad which will eventually replaced by the authoritatian view?
"In sum, is the current view the height of progress or is it a temporary fad which will eventually replaced by the authoritatian view?"
ReplyDeletePeople raised in a context where corporal punishment is admissible tend to think that "corporal punishment is something completely natural.
Actually, it is not. It is also a "human invention", and there are cultures who do not practice it at all.
Apparently, the christian view that a child is naturally bad and that its will has to be broken has spread throughout the world thanks to mission and colonialism.
In islam, corporal punishment is also practiced, so most of the world's population live now in cultures where corporal punishment is taken for granted.
It might be that pendulum will swing back one day. But I do not believe that corporal punishment is indispensable.
PS: There was also a time where handicapped children were left to rot in a corner (see the stories of Sholem Aleichem).
ReplyDeleteWould you think it is desirable to revert to this?
Wouls you think the torah commands us to do it?
PS: There was also a time where handicapped children were left to rot in a corner (see the stories of Sholem Aleichem).
ReplyDeleteWould you think it is desirable to revert to this?
Wouls you think the torah commands us to do it?
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you have totally missed the point of this post
Love with limits.
ReplyDeleteHowever the poskim of our age from Rav Yaakov Kamenrtasky to Rav Wolbe interpret Halacha today that 'the limits do not include corporal punishment.'
There is an important distinction to made here.
ReplyDeleteCorporal PUNISHMENT is rarely a good idea. All that is happens is that the child comes to resent the parent/teacher.
That said, when a child faces immediate danger or injury, a good smack on the bottom as a sign or message can be warranted. For example, a child who reached onto the stove is well served by a smack as warning of danger. As the child ages, reason ought to supplant violence. Simply beating a child because the parent/teacher is unable to control the child or the child will not respond to the parent/teacher's satisfaction says more about the parenting/teaching skills than it does about the child.
Children learn first by imitation and then by exploration, questioning and pushing the envelope. This is derech hatevah. Upset the order and you uoset nature. Upset nature and you develop dysfunction.
There is a real phenomena of victims becoming abusers. This is very different from R' Dessler's remarks that a victim will lash out at his father or brothers- that is retaliation. An abuser has far more significant and long lasting pathologies, usually derived from long term abuse, either physical or psychological.
We ought to be more demanding of our children. We ought to hold them to higher standards. That said, violence is no guarantee that will; be achieved. There are other ways to admonish children without resorting to violence.
A look at societies that tolerate and encourage corporal punishment is most instructive. Just last week in Pakistan, a young boy was lashed for shaving. In teh Arab world, corporal punishment for even the slightest infraction is commonplace.
Is this who we want to emulate?
There is a difference between, fore xample, a child is hitting a smaller child, so you punish him as not to do it again, and
ReplyDeleteyou had an argument with your boss/chavruta/ wife, so you take it out on your child (even unknowingly).
Guess what kind of person that child will grow up to be? Or what issues they will have.
"You totally missed the point of this post"
ReplyDeleteYou totally missed my point.
I agree that children emulate their parents. I know two families that I've learned this by watching. One the father is lazy and never wears his kippah. He acts like being Jewish is a chore. Guess what? His sons act the same way. They never want to do their homework, they mouth off to their mother, they take their kippah off.
ReplyDeleteIn another family, the father loves to learn and be Jewish. When the youngest was three, if his kippah fell off his head he would cry until it was back on.
I agree that children emulate their parents. I know two families that I've learned this by watching. One the father is lazy and never wears his kippah. He acts like being Jewish is a chore. Guess what? His sons act the same way. They never want to do their homework, they mouth off to their mother, they take their kippah off.
ReplyDeleteIn another family, the father loves to learn and be Jewish. When the youngest was three, if his kippah fell off his head he would cry until it was back on.
Psychology from non-Jewish sources
ReplyDelete---------------------------
A very high proportion of Psychologists are actually Jews, although secular (mostly). nevertheless, there is Jewish influence , eg Freud, who had a lot of ideas from Talmud and even Kabbalah in his psychology.
Michaltastik-
ReplyDeleteIf a child sees what is poor parenting as his or her reality, chances are they will grow up to be poor parents.
If a child sees his or her parent's violence as appropriate, they will behave in the same way.
If you influence a child in way that results in that child growing up to be a productive, decent and caring citizen, you have wielded real influence. Conversely, if you FAIL to influence that child in an appropriate way, you will have a child that is seriously lacking.
Objects and ideas only assume real value when their qualities exert a positive influence.Food is important because food is life sustaining and thus allows us to exert positive and productive influences. Ideas and education assume real value when their qualities exert a positive influence and we use those ideas and education to empower ourselves and others. Books assume real value when their qualities exert the kind of influence that makes us think.
Seeking knowledge is a human endeavor and as such, is both never ending and limited at the same time. Seeking truth is very different- we can find truth and be satisfied and sated, even if we do not completely understand or comprehend that truth. We can work to increase our understanding of truth, but the essential truth never changes.
Our search for meaning and truth cannot be found through our quest for knowledge.
To be a talmid chacham is easy. To be a tzaddik is much more difficult. The search for knowledge without the search for truth is a dysfunction, an intellectual obsession. It is a fixation on the exterior of things that precludes real intimacy. Bill Gates daughters will not remember him for business acumen. They will will remember him as a good dad or not a good dad. Intellectual or material success means little to a child- of any age.
Anyone can learn the mechanics of anything, without getting close. The mind consumes rather than luxuriates. The mind devours, rather than contemplates. The mind inhales, rather than loves.
I worry when have 'intellectual' discussions about corporal punishment.
Hmmm...I wonder what the main "filthy innovations" there are that we should not be using when teaching our children. Any ideas for what he had in mind, or how this applies today?
ReplyDelete
ReplyDeleteWho publishes such things in the name of Tora?
Gedolim.
If you want to come to the table of Torah study you need to understand that Torah has 70facets all of which are true.
You have made assumptions about what a great Rav knows and does not know. What he means or does not mean. Rav Dessler was not some hack that you can so simply degrade. He was the Mashgiach Ruchani of Ponevezh. Before that he was the Rosh Yeshiva of Gateshead, from whom Rav Yaakov Hillel received Semicha and whom he considers to be his own Rav.
He was a great Rav and Posek, as well as being instrumental in the formation of many of the greatest Rabbanim today. That is who publishes such things in the name of Torah.
the problem with this quote is that HaRav Dessler ztvk"l is not issuing a p'sak halacha here regarding the hitting of children. The first part of the letter, which is not included here, discusses the theory of the (then) modern psychologists that man is born without any personality, and his environment develops the personality entirely. Torah disputes this, while agreeing that the personality of a person is surely influenced somewhat by his environment, but not created by that environment. this is the old nature vs. nurture argument. What is important to the bloggers here is that Rav Dessler is not paskening l'halacha about hitting children. He is saying that a child should feel that his parents are above him, not his friends, as such should be afraid of the parent. One has to understand this in the context of Rav Desslers entire behavior and way of life. Certainly one is not allowed to hit a child in anger, or out of his own frustration. This is simple halacha. But he felt that a child should understand that his father is above him, and therefore should be afraid of him, this being a way for the child to understand at an early age a concept of being subservient to Hashem.
ReplyDeleteDaas Torah:
ReplyDeleteThis presents a problem as the view of Chazal, Rihsonim and most Achronim is incompatible with this modern view.
Why is this a problem? Do we follow the medicine of Chazal, Rishonim and Acharonim? Is this not also medicine!
Is there a command that we only "correct" a child through physical force?
In sum, is the current view the height of progress or is it a temporary fad which will eventually replaced by the authoritatian view?
That question has nothing to do with Torah unless you are questioning the Chochma of Psychology and the Human Condition and asking whether it is a "fad" OR you subscribe to the hungarian notion of חדש אסור מן התורה (Do you?)
If Psychology is able to subsequently demonstrate a new or different approach in the future, then this will be because either it is demonstrably better or because the changing human psyche in a future world requires it.
If my memory serves me correctly, in ועליהו לא יבול R' Shlomo Zalman expresses a negative view towards striking children in our day.
hungarian notion of חדש אסור מן התורה
ReplyDelete------------------
In my very limited knowledge of this concept - it seems to me it has been misunderstood or exagerated by later generations.
The HATAM Sofer was a Giant , intelelctually and spiritually. He faced an equal and opposite force, the reform movement, which was in full swing and wreaking havoc. Just like a century before the shabbetai zvi movement was destroying Judaism, so now the reform. So he had to put a stop to it the best he could.
Can I live up to his standards? clearly not. But his halacha shows he was a Genius, who even sometimes accepted science against traditional interpretations of the sages.
In another teshuva, he criticises those who forbid shaving altogether, by arguing it is a personal chumra, but it has always been acceptable for men to shave if they so require.
I am peer counselor trained and supervised by experienced and licensed therapist.
ReplyDeletePhysical punishment should be the last resort.
Only if other means have been exhausted and the child wont behave or cooperate ,then it should be used.
The physical punishment must not cause any kind of brusing or injuries.
The physical discipline must be done by the parents, unless evidence is noticed by the school.
The school has a halachic and civil legal obligation to report , when they see the child coming to school injured.
I, as a peer councelor had a legal obligation to report these things.
I have reported non- jewish clients for this.
If a jewish client told me he was being abused or abusing someone- i would make a report.
L,CHAYIM
A rav in Israel who is the grandson of R' Yakov Kamenetsky often quotes his grandfather saying that the method of chinuch has to be changed and adjusted for every new generation ("Chinuch is the one area where every Orthodox Rabbi has to be like the Reform"). A teacher cannot simply rely on what worked for himself or his teachers to work for his own students.
ReplyDelete"Is abuse an issue today because today's children are more delicate and easily damaged?"
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure if this is the most helpful way to frame the question. It could be that the innate nature of children has not changed, but that the nature of society has. In R' Dessler's view, if a child beaten by his father learns only to beat his own children and no one else, such a result would be seen as a resounding success. We, however, would likely still view such a man as pathologically violent, caught in a cycle of intergenerational violence.
Also, in this generation, the beating of a child by a parent is seen to be intrinsically bad, independent of the psychological harm the beating may cause to the child. Even if the beaten child grows up to be an upstanding citizen, and further, managed to break said intergenerational cycle of violence and disciplined his own children without resorting to beatings, the (grand)father would nevertheless be seen as a bad man (or at the very best a product of his times).
See the first chapter of R' Wolbe's "Zeri'ah uBinyan". His whole thesis is about minimizing the use of corporeal punishment in raising today's children.
ReplyDeleteMy personal inclination is less extreme than R' Wolbe's, as I think there are cases, such as running in the street or touching the stove, where more slow methods aren't sufficiently safe.
-micha
"My nephew told me that he saw in a sefer that even if the child obeys his parents it is still proper to find an excuse in order to hit him at least a small amount."
ReplyDeleteIsn't this a clear gemara in makos?
People used to think it was necessary to "spank" adult members of the community, military trainees, and prisoners. In some countries they still do. In our country, it is considered sexual battery if a person over the age of 18 is "spanked", but only if over the age of 18.
ReplyDeleteFor one thing, because the buttocks are so close to the genitals and so multiply linked to sexual nerve centers, slapping them can trigger powerful and involuntary sexual stimulation in some people. There are numerous physiological ways in which it can be sexually abusive, but I won't list them all here. One can use the resources I've posted if they want to learn more.
Child buttock-battering vs. DISCIPLINE:
Child buttock-battering (euphemistically labeled "spanking","swatting","switching","smacking", "paddling",or other cute-sounding names) for the purpose of gaining compliance is nothing more than an inherited bad habit.
Its a good idea for people to take a look at what they are doing, and learn how to DISCIPLINE instead of hit.
I think the reason why television shows like "Supernanny" and "Dr. Phil" are so popular is because that is precisely what many (not all) people are trying to do.
There are several reasons why child bottom-slapping isn't a good idea. Here are some good, quick reads recommended by professionals:
Plain Talk About Spanking
by Jordan Riak,
The Sexual Dangers of Spanking Children
by Tom Johnson,
NO VITAL ORGANS THERE, So They Say
by Lesli Taylor M.D. and Adah Maurer Ph.D.
Most compelling of all reasons to abandon this worst of all bad habits is the fact that buttock-battering can be unintentional sexual abuse for some children. There is an abundance of educational resources, testimony, documentation, etc available on the subject that can easily be found by doing a little research with the recommended reads-visit the website of Parents and Teachers Against Violence In Education at www.nospank.net.
Just a handful of those helping to raise awareness of why child bottom-slapping isn't a good idea:
American Academy of Pediatrics,
American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry,
American Psychological Association,
Center For Effective Discipline,
Churches' Network For Non-Violence,
Nobel Peace Prize recipient Archbishop Desmond Tutu,
Parenting In Jesus' Footsteps,
Global Initiative To End All Corporal Punishment of Children,
United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child.
In 26 countries, child corporal punishment is prohibited by law (with more in process). In fact, the US was the only UN member that did not ratify the Convention on the Rights of the Child.
Just found this via link from recent post.
ReplyDeleteIIRC there's a back and forth between R Dessler and his Talmid R Aryeh Carmell about this issue (or closely related one) in the Sefer Zikaron on MM.
What is an "excuse" for punishment?Isn't the lesson learned that there is no percentage in acting right?
ReplyDelete"Why are you beating me?"
"YOU know why!"
So the child racks his brains, realizes he did nothing wrong, and concludes the parent is crazy.
World has changed. Children are fragile today and parents are lacking in self control. Also, our educational models are simplistic and our kids are bored to tears, so there will be acting out you wouldn't get years ago.
ReplyDeleteThat's hit him one time in his life, not many times.
ReplyDeletefirst explain it to the kid
ReplyDeleteyou don't have to hit the first time
beating is a strong word
ReplyDeletea tap on the butt is something else
i have a friend who was the recipient of all kinds of hard slaps across the face in yeshiva
ReplyDeleteguess what he's doing today
no he's not a rosh yeshiva and he's not keeping shabbos either
> when the king punishes the peasant with a beating the peasant never thinks about taking revenge against the king
ReplyDeleteRav Dessler's underlying assumption here has been shown to be incorrect repeatedly over the centuries. Beating the peasants doesn't make them submissive. It angers them and eventually they tire of the beatings and revolt. And when they assume power (after killing the king, of course) they become worse to the new peasants than the old king ever was.
Maybe once upon a time beating a child for the sake of instilling fear was acceptable. Nowadays it not only doesn't work, it creates resentment and eventual revolution. I wonder how many UO parents out there say "I was beating him regularly. Why did he go OTD?"
I like I went back in time.
ReplyDeleteWho authored the "Pardes Yosef"?
R' Eidensohn, Yoel Finkelman discusses this extensively in his book Strictly Kosher Reading. Selection here: http://seforim.blogspot.com/2012/10/a-selection-from-strictly-kosher.html
ReplyDeleteR' Eidensohn, Yoel Finkelman discusses this extensively in his book
ReplyDeleteStrictly Kosher Reading. Selection here: have you read it? KT
http://seforim.blogspot.com/2012/10/a-selection-from-strictly-kosher.html
I don't see anybody give the reason why we don't beat women is that women are fragile today
ReplyDeletethere is Jewish influence
ReplyDeleteeveryone has been influenced as such we are are around the longest etc.
Jewish influence hardly means anything in the above context
Pardes Yosef - who is the author?
ReplyDeleteNot only does the field of teaching attract sexual molestors, it also attracts violent people
ReplyDeleteWhen I read this chapter, I decided to give away my copy of Mictav MiEliyahu. It wasn't enough that he wrote a letter defending "the Gedolim" who told their followers to stay put and not run away as the Nazis advanced. But for a guy who did run away and sit out the war in safety to misuse the word "Nazi" like this was too irksome.
ReplyDeleteThere was an English version called "strive for truth " which was a translation by one of his talmidim. In there, somewhere he makes the point that it's sometimes necessary to lie, since the Torah is true anyway, so lying is just a means to an end. That's when I put the book down. At the time, it didn't occur to me that the entire Anglo Hareidi establishment, and ponovezh, were indoctrinated and trained by this character.
ReplyDeleteStrive For Truth is a selection of the more important essays from vol 1-3 of MM.
ReplyDeleteRav Dessel, z"l, was the model for today's arrogant, triumphalist UO leaders.
*Love is giving "
ReplyDeleteso if a person gives money, clothing, jewellery, food to his wife, but hates her - that is love. How romantic.
Rabbi Louis Jacobs, who learned at Gateshead under Rav dessler, then was booted out of orthodoxy, and started up his own "masorti [conservative]" movement, was very much influenced by Dessler, and spoke very fondly of him his greatness. The feeling was mutual, Dessler described his protégé as a remarkable Gadol.
ReplyDelete