https://www.bhol.co.il/news/780113
Mr. Hermann Fried (Known as Hershey Fried, 66),a Viznits Chosid, after being in Cheirem for more than a year, is still refusing to grant a divorce (Get) to his wife Susi. Surprisingly there are still few synagogues and Rabbies that don't fully respect the Cheirem in several ways and the the refusenik finds his way around Shuls and Shiurim, hiding the truth and giving over twisted versions of the case. The background story is as following:
Is Asher ehrentreu the son or grandson of Dayan ehrentreu?
ReplyDeleteSo how does a NY BD interfere and overrule a decision of an Israeli BD?
ReplyDeletePlease be fair and accurate.
ReplyDeleteThe first link that you posted is ancient history, from 2017!
The second link is from today, and says that the husband has in fact deposited a Get for his wife, at the Beis Yosef Beis Din, in (Brooklyn) New York. This being the case, the Beis Din annulled any Cheirem which was declared against him, and also the so called separations instituted by Rabeinu Tam. The purpose of these sanctions against the husband, were to “encourage” him to issue a Get, a step that he has now taken, hence Beis Din’s removal of the sanctions.
The Chief Rabbinate of Israel, whose stranglehold on the case has led nowhere until now, now sees itself as having been circumvented. Despite the legitimacy of the Beis Yosef Beis Din, a well known and established Beis Din, that has been in operation for decades, the Chief Rabbinate of Israel, in a cynical move, has decided to retaliate against the Beis Din, and decided in a precedent-setting decision, to revoke the recognition of the Beis Yosef Beis Din in New York, and the name of the Beis Din will be removed immediately from the list of Beis Dins recognized by the rabbinate.
In my opinion, the Beis Yosef Beis Din’s position is pretty straightforward. The Chief Rabbinate of Israel ruled that the husband must give his wife a get. The husband is willing to give a Get, and it’s his prerogative to give the Get in whichever Beis Din he chooses. He picked the Beis Yosef Beis Din, as the BD of his choice, so BYBD is now the determining and authorized BD, and the Chief Rabbinate of Israel should not interfere in the workings of a Beis Din that is not under its jurisdiction.
The Bais Yosef Bais Din belong to Rav Mordechai Yoffen. I Yehuda Shain of Lakewood,
ReplyDeleteNew Jersey have the Power of Attorney from Rav Yoffen re: the Bais Yosef Bais Din. I and Rav Mordechai Yoffen have notified numerous times, Rabbi Alt and the rest of the "so called" Bais Din that they have no right to operate the Bais Yosef Bais Din, and they must close up immediately.
They refuse to comply.
BTW- They are a very dishonest Bais Din, only out to milk their clients for every dollar they could get out of them.
Do not ever use them as a Bais Din. They are crooks.
Yehuda Shain could be reached at kashrusy@aol.com or 732-363-7979
ReplyDeleteNo. the NY BD did NOT overrule the decision of the Israeli BD. In fact it is conformance with the original decision of the Israeli BD.
ReplyDeleteThe Israeli BD ruled that the husband is obligated to issue a Get, and until such time, the sanctions will apply to him. Since the sanctions of the Israeli BD were conditional, then the moment that the conditions aren't relevant any more, then any insistence on the continuance of such sanctions, is pure vindictiveness, and contrary to Halacha.
There is no Halacha that the husband must give the Get in the BD of the woman's choice. It’s his prerogative to give the Get in whichever Beis Din he chooses. He chose the Beis Yosef Beis Din, and is thereby considered fully compliant with Halacha.
If you and Rav Yoffen have any טענות against them, then why don't you take members of the current BD, to a דין תורה?
ReplyDeletei see - so they Get and terms of the get were not overruled, just the herem?
ReplyDeleteAh, is this the same as a niddui, and if so , how do u overturn a niddui? (remember your previous comments on this subject).
The Israeli BD put "sanctions" on the husband. Since the sanctions were conditional, then the moment that the reason for their imposition aren't applicable any more, then there is no justification for any sanctions, and the NY BD is simply stating the obvious.
ReplyDeleteI have a better question: how does a Bais Din that is de facto an arm of the secular Israeli government, have power over a Bais Din that is not... notwithstanding that it is in Chutz la'Aretz???
ReplyDeleteIt is not a secular bd, and the government is not secular. Why did they only allow orthodox batei din, despite being allegedly secular zionists?
ReplyDeleteFor many years, dayan abramsky ztl was head of the london BD. Despite the community being modern, secular and even intermarrying. He was a famous Gaon, but how does the mix of the community affect his halacha? In fact he brought in stringencies on giur, and nikkur in kashrut.
The London Beis Din, as part of the United Synagogue, has autonomy, and no government oversight. It also has no powers of government enforcement, other than powers given to standard Arbitration agreements.
ReplyDeleteContrast this with the Israeli Rabbinate, which legally, is an arm of the Israeli government. Its rulings are enforceable by the Israeli court system, including incarceration and other legal sanctions, but its actions are subject to scrutiny and review by the Israeli government.
The Israeli Supreme Court has repeatedly interfered with the rulings of the Rabbinate, and considers itself as having higher power than the rabbis.
The Chief Rabbis and the entire Rabbinate system are financially dependent on the Israeli government for their salaries and funding, which makes them subservient to the Israeli government, and there is an inherent conflict of interest between their ability to freely espouse pure Halacha, and their own personal financial interests.
Nonsense.
ReplyDeleteEvery dayan, and professional rabbi earns a salary from his work, and is thus biased. You csn claim it is compensation for the work he refuses to do, but thst is just fooling yourself and everyone else.
Example - a non rabbanut bd earns money from their hechsher, hence they are financially biased in their ability to pasken halacha. It doesn't matter if they are more machmir, their captive market dictates their income. So the more machmir, the better, as a lot of people prefer to spend on a prestigious hechsher.
Lbd is ultimately answerable to the united synagogue and members who use their services and kashrut. And there are other batei din, eg Federation, kedassia - they all have financial interest in their hechshers. One Dayan whose shiur i used to said the same _ that their products (eg matzos) were undercut by rabbanut hechsher products. So it is not pure halacha. It is economics im halacha, or better calcala v'halacha.
In Dayan Sherman's case, his position was outvoted within the Rabbanut BD, and he then set up a private bd to rule against the conversions. This act is contrary to Halacha.
ReplyDeleteGovernment interference - there are government or national level problems which did not exist for 2000 years.
But hareidi daast Torah also goes against the traditional Jewish way of judgement. We are told in the Talmud that the Sanhedrin would vote , starting with the smallest sage, so he is not influenced by the gedolim or the strictest. Hareidim have managed to turn a once great Torah jurisprudence 180 degrees into a mockery of its original design. The gadol gives orders, and the members of the BD comply to their will.
How is that representative of the methods of the Sanhedrin?
Please, the differences are enormous. The Israeli government is definitely secular. They never mention Gd - at least officially, even in their constitution, only
ReplyDeleteambiguously.
They pay their salary and are subservient to them. Rav Abramsky was a full fledged Rav and not answerable to such an arrangement.
I am not old enough to have had the honor to have known Dayan Abramsky ztl, but the Dayanim in the London BD, and every other BD , earn salaries. Even Dayan Elyashiv earned a salary, and a pension. That places you and most other hareidim in a slight difficulty.
ReplyDeleteAnd for those BDs that certify kashrut, their income is directly linked to sales of products and hence their hechsher having perceived value eg stringency.
Unless you have a Dayan who earns a living eg selling furs, or diamonds, and volunteers to to is dayanut, then there is no Dayan in the world who is free from monetary gain.
Your claim is false. And you failed to respond to my proof. they have appointed Orthodox rabbanim, and follow an orthodox calendar, rabbanut etc. They appointed a Rav to oversee the army, consulted with the Chazon Ish etc. if your claims were true, they would consult with Druze or reform , or philosphers at Hebrew U.
ReplyDeleteThe secular Israeli government pays their salary. That's enough right there. If someone else would pay their salary, then they'd be more kosher...
ReplyDelete