https://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/305300
44 people were killed and dozens more were injured on Thursday night in a mass stampede during Lag Ba’Omer celebrations on Mount Meron.
Paramedics from Magen David Adom and United Hatzalah provided treatment to the victims, including several who were unconscious, and evacuated them to Hadassah Ein Kerem Hospital in Jerusalem, Rambam Hospital in Haifa, Ziv Hospital in Tzfat, Poriya Hospital in Tiberias and the Galilee Medical Center in Nahariya.
Fighters from the Home Front Command's rescue brigade, medical forces
from the Northern Command and a number of Air Force helicopters with
medical teams are assisting in treating the large number of victims in
Meron.
I want to feel sad and horrified by events. I really do. But really, when you tell your child (who's old enough to understand): Don't go and play with the pitbull. It'll rip your face off! And you tell him several times and then he goes anyways because he wants to play with a doggie and then comes back to you with his face ripped off, how can you still feel any sympathy?
ReplyDeleteThey were warned - it's not yet safe to have this massive gathering. You're breaking multiple safety rules on top of the CoVID risk. Please let it go for another year. And the response? We're gonna do it anyways! We're gonna ignore the safety risk anyways! Torah protects! We won't let you destroy the Torah! And this is what happens.
L'havdil, it reminds me of the stories of Jews circumcizing their children in the ghettos during the War. It was dangerous but it was for an important cause. At least let the boy die a Jew! But this? For dancing around a bonfire on a night that isn't even the yahrzeit of the guy they're celebrating? For this they chose to endanger themselves?
Almost makes one wonder if there was an element of Divine intervention here. Almost.
https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/09/hajj-stampede-crowd-disasters/407542/
ReplyDeleteEvery year children are seriously burned or killed by those horrendous fires, which are avoda Zoroastrian.
ReplyDeleteThese big events, 200,000 Nefashot are fraught with danger.
I disagree with you - it is just as tragic as when others are sadly killed. If secular Zionists fall off a mountain in south America , then you would find it sad. When people get drowned doing hiking or sports it's tragic.
Different sectors will blame the other, but these poorly organized pilgrim events always end up in tragedy, in mecca, India etc.
The wisdom of the Talmud is often ignored - do not walk under a weak wall.
ReplyDeleteThat applies to many things, it is the purest form of rationalism.
DON'T smoke
Don't go to Uman.
Don't climb mountains
Don't drive dangerously
Don't assume you aren't at risk from covid
Etc
It is not only for drum people, it is advice for secular people too.
You are a bitter mean person. I'd say you might be an apikorus. Almost. Takes less than 24 hours for you to slam people. Where is your empathy???
ReplyDeleteCalling this a stampede is inappropriate. It appears the police caused a huge backup and then the tragedy occurred when soo many people were released all at once in a flood.
ReplyDeleteChilonim (haaretz) already blaming the charedim.
ReplyDeleteHareidim already blaming the police force.
according to Debka "In 1911, an earlier panicky stampede caused the 16
ReplyDeletecentury roof over the tomb to buckle, killing 11 worshippers and injuring 50 injured."
Jpost:
https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/wage-war-on-the-it-will-be-okay-mentality-analysis-666836
"In the last quarter-century alone there was the Arad Music Festival
tragedy in 1995, where three teenagers were crushed to death in a
stampede; the Maccabiah Games bridge collapse in 1997, that killed four
and injured 60; the Versailles Wedding Hall disaster in Jerusalem in
2001 where 23 people fell to their deaths after a floor collapsed; the
Carmel Fire in 2010 where 44 people lost their lives; and the 2018 Nahal
Tzafit disaster, which led to the death of 10 youth taking part in a
pre-army program."
As I said, this is not sectarian, it is a tragedy, and happens in all sectors .
Torah thought on last week’s parsha. My theory on “You shall not profane My holy name; that I may be sanctified in the midst of the Israelite people: I the Lord who sanctify you,” (Leviticus 22:32).
ReplyDeleteI cite Eliphaz the Temanite in the Book of Job:
“For man is born to [do] mischief, Just as sparks fly upward. But I would resort to God, I would lay my case before God” (Job 5:7-8).
איוב פרק ה פסוק ז - ח
(ז) כִּי אָדָם לְעָמָל יוּלָּד וּבְנֵי רֶשֶׁף יַגְבִּיהוּ עוּף:
(ח) אוּלָם אֲנִי אֶדְרֹשׁ אֶל אֵל וְאֶל אֱלֹקִים אָשִׂים דִּבְרָתִי:
רש"י איוב פרק ה פסוק ז
כי אדם לעמל יולד - כי אי אפשר שלא יחטא ויקבל עמל בחטאו לקבל פורענותו ואינו כבני רשף שהם מלאכי' ורוחות שהם יגביהו עוף ואינם מן התחתוני' (יגביהו לעוף ולהיות מן התחתונים סא"א) לשלוט בם שטן ויצה"ר:
רשף - כמו רשפי קשת (תהלים עו) כשהחץ מעופפת נקרא רשפי ל' עוף (סא"א):
רש"י איוב פרק ה פסוק ח
אולם אני אדרוש - אם היו באים עלי יסורים הללו הייתי דורש אל הקדוש ברוך הוא בתפילה ובתחינה ואלו הייתי שם דברתי בבקשה:
Rashi explains that not possible that man will not sin and get punished for his sins. People are not like angels that don’t sin. Rashi explains that we should turn to God with prayer and pleading. On Leviticus 22:32 Rashi says that Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah did not rely on a miracle to save them. In the midrash Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah went to Ezekiel for advice on how to deal with King N.’s threat to throw them in the fiery furnace.
יחזקאל פרק כ פסוק ג
בֶּן אָדָם דַּבֵּר אֶת זִקְנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל וְאָמַרְתָּ אֲלֵהֶם כֹּה אָמַר אֲדֹנָי יְקֹוִק הֲלִדְרֹשׁ אֹתִי אַתֶּם בָּאִים חַי אָנִי אִם אִדָּרֵשׁ לָכֶם נְאֻם אֲדֹנָי יְקֹוִק:
My theory. God swore that He will not save Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah. Good. Why? Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah were the administrators of King N.’s kingdom and were wise and knew magic. They knew the Houdini trick of throwing a bounded Houdini in a box into a swimming pool and Houdini comes out alive. They knew the cut the girl in half trick and she comes out alive. Terah, Abraham’s father was a master magician. He knew about smoke and mirrors and throwing false images. When Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah heard God swear that He will not save them, well, they were on their own. No miracles to save them. They looked for a non-miracle way to get saved, smoke and mirrors and illusions. We must always watch out for our safety and not to rely on miracles. Beautiful. In the future only good will happen:
Soncino Zohar, Bereshith, Section 1, Page 46a
“R. Simeon said: The expression God saw the light that it was good means really God decided that the light should be only good, that is, that it should never be an instrument of wrath (cf. “Now Balaam, seeing that it pleased the Lord to bless Israel, did not, as on previous occasions, but turned his face toward the wilderness.” (Numbers 24:1).”
Where is my empathy for the guy who walks up to an aggressive dog and tries to play with it while everyone around is shouting for him not to?
ReplyDeleteWhere is my empathy for a community that screams loudly how it is the true and pure banner of Torah and then goes and blatantly ignores halakha to perform dangerous rituals?
those deaths are sadly, the failure to learn lessons from previous hareidi extreme mass gatherings, and omer bonfires which have burned kids, and destroyed the environment. people were killed in fuenrals for gedolim attended by masses.
ReplyDeleteThis Meron gathering was approved for 10,000 people,. 100,000 showed up.
just as a persepctive, the Arad rock festival was approved for 18,000 and 20,000 showed up, killing 3.
so Arad had approx 10% extra, whereas Meron had 1000% extra.
And I'm an apikores?
ReplyDeleteIn 1985 a school bus in Petach Tikvah stalled on the train tracks and was hit by a train, killing all the children. Within a day the head of Shas (I think his name was Peretz?) annouced that it was because of Shabbos desecration in Petach Tikvah.
A day or two after the Tree of Life shooting in Pittsburgh, a Rabbi Aderet in Monsey announced it was because they were celebrating a gay aufruf that Shabbos. (turns out they weren't but whatever)
Apikorus? By immediately rushing to blame the victims, I'm following Daas Torah!
We criticize the Reform for picking and choosing. How is this different?
ReplyDeleteI'm a practical man. If secular Zionists climbed a mountain that was known to be dangerous and avoided by experienced climbers and then fell off, I'd have as much sympathy as I do now.
ReplyDeleteThe real tragedy is that the Chareidi response to this will be "And we're going to do the exact same thing next year!" All those who died will have died for nothing.
Punch, kick, and spit at female soldiers trying to save the injured. Hasid Shoteh. Also appears in the talmud.
ReplyDeleteYou want to blame the chareidim . It's not the masses. It is the powerbrokers like deri, the rebbes, etc.
ReplyDeleteIt is also the police for not enforcing the law. The politicians who pander to the chareidi vote, and never challenge them.
There are military accidents, which the chareidi mock. And blame the army, and say it should be shut down.
Clearly you are a goy. No room for empathy. Or more likely an am Haaretz as the Gemora says they hate the frum.
ReplyDeleteGoy gamur. What a loser.
ReplyDeleteYes you are clearly an apikorus. Actually you aren't because an apikorus knows something. You are a sad bitter person.
ReplyDeleteAnd the revellers who kicked and spat at female soldiers?
ReplyDeleteHasid Shoteh. Also appears in the talmud.
ReplyDeleteWhen rabbi Cardozo says he listens to reform, apikorsim, seculars etc in the hope he might learn something from them, then the McCarthyists shout "apikorsus" - what can we frum people learn from secular / reforms?
ReplyDeleteif they did listen to the secular, on covid, on civil planning, and did learn and implement changes _ maybe so many lives would not have been lost.
We had a saying in college "The problem with a truly open mind is that it collects a lot of garbage."
ReplyDeleteRabbi Norman Lamm countered that view - if you totally closed your mind off to falsehood you risk also closing it off to truth.
ReplyDeleteToldos Aharon didn't want to listen to secular Zionist regime, for the reasons you mentioned.
ReplyDeleteWe must keep an open mind, but not so open that our brains fall out.
ReplyDeleteMr Mordechai, you are quite correct. The term "stampede" is inaccurate - it was to do with excessive numbers of people , poor planning, and too many people concentrated in small areas.
ReplyDeleteit was a crush - a terrible, terrible disaster, with unnecessary waste of lives.
what is your system of managing the acceptability of openess?
ReplyDeleteand not so closed that they get crushed in crazy overcrowding events
ReplyDeleteBlame the victims...
ReplyDeleteIn his matter, there is no on-size-fits-all approach.
ReplyDeleteThat is Palestinian victim mentality and narrative.
ReplyDeleteLook at the comments ive recently written on this tragedy.
It is rashlanut on behalf of the organisers - liable for ir miklat if we had them. Din rotzeach.
right , so you have a few options:
ReplyDelete1) ask your Rav , and my rebbeim are essentially people who think like R' Rackman, R' Cardozo, and R' David bar Hayyim (obviously yours differ).
2) use your own intuition - ok, tha is a very subjective thing
3) follow what "hamon anshei Toratenu" do - but then you might end up getting crushed, but that could also happen at a secular rock festival, where greed, drugs, taivos , alcohol are commonplace.
4) find a Talmid Hacham who is versed in secular knowledge or a Professor versed in Talmud Torah.
Rav Yaakov Ariel - of Ramat Gan - writes an piece about who to follow in Torah matters - since there are many schools of thought. It has a lot of considerations, but he arrives (unsurprisingly) at Rav Kook and his school of thought. If Chabad asked the same question, they would arrive at the Rebbe; MO would arrive at rav Soloveitchik, satmar, obviously their rebbe, Sephardim. - Rav Yosef etc. Oh, DT - Rav Shternbuch.
You blamed the victims for being "so closed [minded] that they get crushed in crazy overcrowding events".
ReplyDeleteShame on you.
כִּ֤י תִבְנֶה֙ בַּ֣יִת חָדָ֔שׁ וְעָשִׂ֥יתָ מַֽעֲקֶ֖ה לְגַגֶּ֑ךָ וְלֹֽא־תָשִׂ֤ים דָּמִים֙ בְּבֵיתֶ֔ךָ כִּֽי־יִפֹּ֥ל הַנֹּפֵ֖ל מִמֶּֽנּוּ
ReplyDelete"but not so open that our brains fall out."
ReplyDeleteShame on you
None of the victims had any reason to assume, that if the police and other officials allowed the event to take place, that they still had to be concerned for their safety.
ReplyDeleteyou and DT were responding to a comment I made to Garnel Eisenhart:
ReplyDelete"We had a saying in college "The problem with a truly open mind is that it collects a lot of garbage."1
IsraelReader Daas Torah • 20 hours ago
We must keep an open mind, but not so open that our brains fall out."
In that comment I wrote "if they did listen to the secular, on covid, on civil planning, and
did learn and implement changes _ maybe so many lives would not have been lost."
You just reinforce your closedmindedness by ignoring what I have written, and pick out half a sentence to to support your own pre-formed ideas and predjudices.
And the fact is, that the machers, organisers, profit takers at Meron were sloppy, slimey criminals, who are rotzchim, who ignored safety measures , who had their own Palestinian styled autonomy, and disregarded police and safety reports, and allowed a 1000% surplus of people when they were only licensed to bring in 10,000.
The victims are victims of such negligence, who did not take safety seriously, and violated the Torah, for their own greed.
BRAVO!! HEAR, HEAR!! 👏👏👏
ReplyDelete