the fact is he is certain he is being honest
he has proclaimed repeatedly he did not give the heter which is true but he the fact that he gave Rav Greenblatt an improper psychiatrist report and other "facts" and specically asked for an annulment is omitted from his statement
the annulment was given entirely because Rav Greenblatt felt he was required to accept the request of a gadol
https://daattorah.blogspot.com/2015/11/tamar-epsteins-heter-r-shlomo.html
the fact that the heter has been universally rejected changes nothing
perhaps the only thing that might is if the psychiatrist who wrote the totally unethical report publicly repudiates it - but then he would probably lose his license so that is not going to happen
http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2015/12/tamar-epsteins-heter-psychologist-dr.html
perhaps it is time to focus on the weakest link - i/e/ the psychiatrist and threaten him with a multi million dollar legal case in which he will also lose his license
his name is known and many have seen his report
Lie | Define Lie at Dictionary.com
www.dictionary.com/browse/lie
a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth; a falsehood.he has proclaimed repeatedly he did not give the heter which is true but he the fact that he gave Rav Greenblatt an improper psychiatrist report and other "facts" and specically asked for an annulment is omitted from his statement
the annulment was given entirely because Rav Greenblatt felt he was required to accept the request of a gadol
https://daattorah.blogspot.com/2015/11/tamar-epsteins-heter-r-shlomo.html
the fact that the heter has been universally rejected changes nothing
perhaps the only thing that might is if the psychiatrist who wrote the totally unethical report publicly repudiates it - but then he would probably lose his license so that is not going to happen
http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2015/12/tamar-epsteins-heter-psychologist-dr.html
perhaps it is time to focus on the weakest link - i/e/ the psychiatrist and threaten him with a multi million dollar legal case in which he will also lose his license
his name is known and many have seen his report
MAYBE he's using "afkheinu"
ReplyDeleteWho is the psychiatrist?
ReplyDeleteSome points I'd like to raise with the psychiatrist.
ReplyDelete(1) Virtually all diagnoses listed in the DSM are arrived at through observation of patient behavior and speech. In this case, the doctor alleges a pre-existing condition that the wife was unaware of. Yet, even if she was unaware of the diagnosis name, and unaware the condition was incurable, Tamar must have been aware of some or all of the symptoms before the marriage. And she still chose to marry the Aharon.
(2) Tamar has stated she knew after one week of marriage that she didn't want to be married to Aharon. Presumably, this was because of the symptoms of the condition which would later be diagnosed by the psychiatrist. Yet Tamar continued to live with Aharon and choose to have a child with him.
(3) Tamar's diary page about Aharon does not mention anything about Aharon's supposed symptoms that would later lead to a diagnosis. Tamar never brought up this diagnosis (or the collection of symptoms that would later be diagnosed) in the civil court proceedings, nor in the Bais Din proceedings. When, if at all, was Tamar notified of the diagnosis?
(4) How did the doctor determine the condition was incurable? What studies have been done to demonstrate that women will not marry a man with this condition?
(5) How does the doctor -- or anyone else -- know why Tamar left Aharon? Was it because of this condition the doctor diagnosed? Was it because of another reason entirely? Was it because of some undiagnosed condition that Tamar has?
The Torah teaches that a Posek may rely on testimony of doctors to reach Halachic decisions. I don't think the term "healer", which is a closer translation of the term "Rofeh", applies to mental health professionals, despite their credentials and extensive training and experience. Relying on psychiatrists leads to absurdities. A doctor could then declare a man exempt from positive Torah obligations because the man is a transgender and thus really a woman. A doctor could conveniently diagnosis someone a Shoteh (or the term that is equivalent), and the person would become exempt from Mitzvos. And so on. Abortion on demand would become legal with a doctor saying the woman is suicidal and will kill herself if she carries the child to term. The prohibition against adultery would be essentially wiped off the Klaf of the Torah by post-marriage diagnoses as in our case.
Certainly there is room for some use of Heterim, but it must be done with rigorous standards.
In the one case I can think of at the moment where the Gemora discusses relying on reports from experts on a man's state of mind, those reports are totally disregarded because, according to my understanding, the man's state of mind is fluid and influenced by his Yetzer Hara. The doctors say the man must have at least social contact with a certain woman or he will die. And the Rabbis prohibit it because once the man has his desire met, he will lose the desire.
What I take from this is that a "mental condition" is not static, but is dynamic and the product of many factors. How do we know that a husband on some deep level doesn't dislike his wife? Maybe his presenting symptoms is merely the manifestation of an underlying hatred, and the condition would dissipate after divorce and never appear again with another wife.
Attempts to reduce human behavior to neat categories and clinical exactness are always going to fail. Some way to contain the Wild West of relying on mental health professionals has to be clearly articulated and adhered to.
the annulment is totally dependent on the spouse not being able to live with such a person
ReplyDeletesomething clearly not true in present case according tp Tama'rs own written testimony and that of the Baltimore beis din as well as psychiatrists consulted by Rav Feldman and other poskim
good question more important why was his report accepted totally by Rav Greenblatt without meeting the husband?
ReplyDeleteYou mentioned it is known who the psychiatrist is. So who is it?
ReplyDeletewhen it is appropriate
ReplyDeleteIt's been years already and nothing has changed.
ReplyDeleteI quote: “the fact that the heter has been universally rejected changes nothing. Perhaps the only thing that might [change everything] is if the psychiatrist who wrote the totally unethical report publicly repudiates it - but then he would probably lose his license so that is not going to happen…Perhaps it is time to focus on the weakest link - i/e/ the psychiatrist and threaten him with a multi million dollar legal case in which he will also lose his license. His name is known and many have seen his report.”
ReplyDeleteNo. True that the author of the obviously fake/phony PhD psychology letter that Aaron is insane is unethical, crooked, corrupt etc. He wrote such a horrible report only to please Rabbi Kamenetsky and supporters/ORA/Agunah International etc to declare that Tamar is free, מקח טעות. Yes, I would like the author to confess, but it probably won’t change anything. Joseph Orlow, he’s not the real enemy here.
This is much like my case with Susan. Yes, I would like Susan to confess that the 1995 fake/phony Rigler Order of Separation that she and Myla Serlin gave Judge Prus on August 1, 2013 is a fraud. Probably, Myla Serlin would lose her license. That’s all. Susan could claim she was an onas etc. There may be no changes. Susan is the mother of six of my children. I pray for Susan’s well-being. Susan likes money, that’s all, God bless her.
It very hard to change Rabbi Kamenetsky and supporters/ORA/Agunah International etc who know very well what’s going on with Tamar Epstein. It’s very hard to change Judge Prus who knows very well what’s going on with Susan.
I’m going after Judge Prus. Judge Gerald Garson sat in jail 4 years for bribery and kangaroo courts etc. Mendel Epstein et al are in jail for torture etc.
Oh, Eddie, see me on South Asia Journal of Social Studies and Economics
http://www.sciencedomain.org/journal/80/editorial-board-members
any idea why some older posts are not showing comments, especially when I do a search ?
ReplyDeleteIf such an agunah took up with a nochri, am I correct that their offspring would be kasher?
ReplyDeletei see comments
ReplyDeleteneed approval of informants
ReplyDeleteIf they haven't approved after all these years, why do you think things will change now?
ReplyDeleteAre you hareidi? Ariel university is not really hareidi - no university is hareidi.
ReplyDeleteThe reason I ask is whether there is any idea of modern economics in the Hareidi world? Of course there was Prof Meir tamari many years ago. i asked him the question about teaching a son a trade in the Talmud. he said it is a problem and it isn't - it is because it's int eh talmud, but it is not because gedolim think it it ok to reject it.
Confidential: between you and me, Moe; and the thousands who visit here. I called Philly today. Things are heating up there. Rabbi Shmuel Kamenetsky exhorted me in strong terms to back off.
ReplyDeleteJoe, for some reason I'm doubtful things are heating up. I think that in a few more years from now we'll still be in the same status quo we've been in for the past few years.
ReplyDeleteאין סומכין ואין מביאין ראיה מכל דברי אגדה ואין מקשין מדברי אגדה. -רס"ג ורב האי גאון, אוצר הגאונים, חגיגה עמוד 65 במילואים
ReplyDeleteאמר לה ההוא צדוקי לברוריא: כתיב "רני עקרה לא ילדה" [ישעיהו, נד, א] משום דלא ילדה רני? אמרה ליה: שטיא! שפיל לסיפיה דקרא, דכתיב [שוטה! הסתכל לסוף הפסוק, שבו כתוב]: "כי רבים בני שוממה מבני בעולה אמר ה'" [שם], אלא מאי "עקרה לא ילדה"? רני כנסת ישראל שדומה לאשה עקרה שלא ילדה בנים לגיהנם. -ברכות דף י
ReplyDeleteThank you for being a man of truth and so willing to stand up for truth.
ReplyDeleteDo you mind sharing the exact/approximate words he used?
Joseph Orlow says: “Confidential: between you and me, Moe; and the thousands who visit here. I called Philly today. Things are heating up there. Rabbi Shmuel Kamenetsky exhorted me in strong terms to back off.”
ReplyDeleteJoseph Orlow, Rabbi Kamenetsky brushes you off. A gadol can brush aside whomever they choose. Donald Trump can fire any US government employee he chooses and doesn’t have to explain to anyone, even to Mr. Mueller, his reasons. This is his US Constitutional right.
Don’t give up, Joseph Orlow. I suggest you publish the name on the letter without the approval of Daattorah’s informants. Why? Probably Susan just used his name and made up the letter on a letter-head with his name, as she did with the fake/phony 1995 Rigler Order of Separation. Once his name is published, surely, he’ll announce that the letter was a forgery/fraud, that no decent doctor would ever write such a letter without meeting the victim etc. He would have to announce this to protect himself from losing his license.
In my case with Susan, Susan needed a phony/fake Order of Separation. Susan never got a real one in all her years of the separation action. Popkin, Susan’s lawyer, said the resolution of the separation action was immaterial.
Susan presented her fake/phony 1995 Rigler Order of Separation for the first time to Judge Rigler August 1, 2013. Judge Rigler died and Gerald Garson took over his cases, having signed several of Rigler’s orders before Rigler died. See, if that Judge Rigler were alive, we could ask him: did you really sign a 1995 Order of Separation? The hard copy of the fake/phony 1995 Order of Separation Myla Serlin gave Judge Prus is sufficient for these crooks without ever giving me a copy.
Hurray, before the named person on the letter dies. Then no one could ask him did you really sign such a letter?
intersting gemora
ReplyDeletetake a look at the issue of vengeance and tamidei chachomim
I don't want to mischaracterize his words. Will do as you suggest, and paraphrase.
ReplyDeleteThis was about the third time I'd spoken with Rabbi Shmuel Kamenetsky over the years. To his credit, he makes himself available by telephone.
Usually, he speaks softly and calmly. But this time he seemed upset when I identified myself and told him why I was calling. I hypothesize he may have gotten wind of the last call to him being recorded and posted here, or of my subsequently calling Rabbi Greenblatt, or simply by my repeated pushing on the subject of separating Tamar Epstein and Adam Fleischer. In regard to the latter, I did not disappoint him in this call.
He made clear ab initio that he was not interested in speaking to me. At one point he questioned me along the lines of "is this your business?", to which I replied, "it IS my business." I got worked up, at points telling him the case involves "Issur Kores", that the "Heter is bogus", that the couple must separate (as I mentioned), and other matters.
He finally told me straight out to "mind your own business" to which I replied "mind your business -- Torah." But he'd hung up on me by then.
I feel like a lion or shark. I've tasted blood and I'm wild now. Stay posted.
You think theft is aggadah?
ReplyDeleteTeaching a "son" a trade maybe the responsibility of the "father" definitely not the responsibility of a talmid torah. they should learn their students Torah. it's not a trade school.
ReplyDelete: אגדתא
רבי מאיר אומר לעולם ילמד אדם את "בנו" אומנות נקיה וקלה ויתפלל למי שהעושר והנכסים שלו שאין אומנות שאין בה עניות ועשירות שלא עניות מן האומנות ולא עשירות מן האומנות אלא הכל לפי זכותו. -קידושין פב א
אתמר נמי רבי יוחנן ורבי אליעזר דאמרי תרוייהו אפילו חרב חדה מונחת על צוארו של אדם אל ימנע עצמו מן הרחמים שנאמר הן יקטלני לו איחל
ReplyDeleteהכתיב, "הן יקטלני לו איחל" (איוב יג, טו).
ReplyDeleteהכתיב הוא לו בוואו, והקרי הוא לא באלף, וצ"ע
אמר רבי יוחנן משום רבי שמעון בן יהוצדק: כל תלמיד חכם שאינו נוקם ונוטר כנחש, אינו תלמיד חכם. -יומא כב כג
ReplyDeleteוצריך להבין
Please see Rashi on Sanhedrin 44b
ReplyDeletehttps://he.m.wikisource.org/wiki/סנהדרין_מד_ב#רש"י
דבעיא מכסא - מעשה במוכס אחד ישראל רשע אחד שמת ובו ביום מת אדם גדול בעיר ובאו כל בני העיר ונתעסקו במטתו וקרובי אותו מוכס הוציאו גם את מטת המוכס אחריו וקפצו עליהם אויבים והניחו המטות וברחו והיה שם תלמיד אחד שישב לו עם מטת רבו לאחר זמן חזרו גדולי העיר לקבור את החכם ונתחלפ' להם מטתו בשל מוכס והיה אותו תלמיד צועק ולא הועיל וקרובי המוכס קברו את החכם ונצטער בה אותו תלמיד מאד מה חטא גרם ליקבר זה בבזיון ומה זכה אותו רשע ליקבר בכבוד גדול כזה. נראה לו רבו בחלום ואמר לו אל תצטער בא ואראך בכבודי בגן עדן בכבוד גדול ובא ואראך אותו האיש בגיהנם וציר של פתח גיהנם סובב באזניו אבל פעם אחת שמעתי בגנות תלמידי חכמים ולא מחיתי ולכך נענשתי וזה פעם אחת הכין סעודה לשר העיר ולא בא שר העיר וחילקה לעניים וזה היה שכרו אמר אותו תלמיד עד מתי יהא אותו האיש נדון בדין קשה אמר לו עד שימות שמעון בן שטח ויכנס תחתיו אמר לו למה אמר לו מפני נשים מכשפניות ישראליות שיש באשקלון ואינו עושה בהן דין למחר סיפר אותו תלמיד דברים לשמעון בן שטח מה עשה כינס שמונים בחורים בעלי קומה והיה אותו היום יום גשמים ונתן כד גדולה ביד כל אחד ואחד וקיפל טלית בתוכם ואמר להן הזהרו בהן שהן שמונים ובשעה שתכנסו יגביה איש אחת מהן מן הארץ ושוב אין מכשפות שולטות בכם ואם לאו לא נוכל להם הלך לו שמעון בן שטח לטרקלין שלהם והניח הבחורים מבחוץ אמרו לו מי אתה אמר להן מכשף אני ולנסותכם בכשפים באתי אמרו לו ומה כשפים בידך אמר להן יכולני להביא לכם שמונים בחורים עטופי טליתות נגובות ואע"פ שהוא יום גשמים אמרו לו הנראה יצא לחוץ ורמז להם הוציאו הטליתות מן הכדים ונתעטפו בהן ונכנסו ואחז כל אחד את אחת מהן והגביה ויכלו להם והוציאום ותלאום. כולם ונתקנאו קרוביהם בדבר ובאו שנים מהם וכוונו דבריהם והעידו על בנו של שמעון בן שטח חיוב מיתה ונגמר דינו וכשהיה יוצא ליסקל אמר אם יש בי עון זה לא תהא מיתתי כפרה לי ואם אינו כן תהא מיתתי כפרה על כל עונותי וקולר תלוי בצואר עדים ושמעו אלו וחזרו בהם ונתנו טעם לדבריהם מחמת שנאת הנשים ואעפ"כ לא נפטר: