THE HIPPOCRISY AND
THE LIES FROM THE RABBIS AND ORA AS WELL
AS THE TRUE CREATORS OF AGUNOT : By
Akiva Wasserstein
It is astounding and disgusting how the Rabbis and ORA are
knee deep in their corruption as well as their hippocrisy. Daattorah has covered extensively the fake
heter issued to Tamar Friedman to remarry without a Get by Shmuel Kaminetsky and Nota Greenblatt.
Then we see that Aharon Friedman, Tamar’s husband, is still barred from
entering shuls in his area despite the fact that she is remarried! Then we have
the Bais Din of Rabbi Dovid Feinstein that has ruled that The Kaminetsky heter
was erroneous but failed to instruct the couple to separate. They also failed
to publish their ruling for public viewing,
after all this can create confusion in the public eye whether a future
child is a Mamzer? Now lets move to a
different case where the similar has occurred with Halacha on the mans side but
with hippocritical and vicious condemnation of the man. I’m referring to the
divorce between Meir and Lonna Kin. Meir has been seeking a Bais Din resolution
all along, and Lonna Kin immediately sued him in Divorce court and Family court
against halacha! Meir deposited a GET in 2008 at his Bais Din but Lonna has not
come to his Bais Din. Meir remarries with a Heter from 100 rabbis and lo and
behold the masses came to his own wedding to shame him and his new wife for
remarrying with a heter?!
Why is Meir Kin’s Halacha allowed remarriage condemmed,
yet Tamar Friedman s remarriage which
was disallowed by a Bais Din of the choosing of Kaminetsky
and that marriage was accepted without public condemnation?! According to the
Torah Tamar has violated a serious Aveira, yet Meir Kin has not?! Why has ORA
not organized rallies at Tamar and Adam Fleischer’s home? Why have Tamar and
Adam not gotten kicked out of their
local shuls and Aharon Friedman and Meir Kin have? Ladies and gentlemen, this
is A DOUBLE STANDARD, DISTORTION AND
CORRUPTION IN HALOCHO !!!
Now , Lets begin to analyze the Meir/ Lonna Kin case. Most
people are ignorant of the facts and do not understand why Lonna Kin has not
picked up her Get. The reality is that the Rabbis in Los Angeles and Las Vegas,
as well as ORA have essentially “blocked” her from receiving the GET as their
continuous aggressive measures against Meir constitutes “kefiya” (coercion)and according to most poskim, such a GET would be
invalidated as active coercion is ongoing. The rabbis and ORA have
unsuccessfully ejected him from his local synagogues, and continue to defame him using the internet
and other publications . Rabbi Gestetner, Meir’s Bais Din in Monsey Ny, has
repeatedly asked Lonna herself as well as her emissaries who have called him to
remove all acts of coercion prior to negotiating an end to this saga. According
to Rabbi Gestetner, Halacha dictates that this be a precursor to negotiating
delivery of a kosher Get. Lonna, the
Rabbis and Ora have refused to make this first step and therefore 12 years
later still have no Get. The Rabbis, Lonna Kin, and Ora have
essentially assured themselves that Lonna Kin will remain “stuck” so long as
the harassment, intimidation and humiliation continues. How stupid can they be to continue the same
strategy for 12 years which yielded no results! After Meir was expelled from all of las Vegas
shuls, the Rabbis and Ora have expended their last bullet and now have no new
strategy to end this case. Lonna as well as her 3 daughters have on a ORA
website video admitted that their shidduchim have been adversely affected by this acrimonious divorce. If Lonna Kin would stop listening to the bad advice
that the rabbis and Ora are giving, and begin to make the necessary steps as
outlined by Rabbi Gestetner to remove coercion tactics, then a resolution can
be achieved. In the meantime no resolution is possible so long as the rabbis
and Ora continue the status quo . Therefore what we see here is that the very
same Rabbis and Ora that shout loud about Agunas, are in fact the very ones that enable them and
prevent the resolution as they seek only methods that empower the feminist
women with disregard to a man’s halachic rights. Until the masses will wake up and stand
against these evil Rabbis and Ora , we will see countless women paraded as
“Agunot” where in fact they are not Agunot but have statuses as “Moredet”-
rebellious women who have violated the Torah on many fronts. Ironically, these
women have no right to even receive a GET for their audacious and atrocious
crimes committed against their husbands. In the meantime, Meir is happily
married while Lonna and her daughters appear stuck in their quest to move on
with their life. In my next article I
will explain and cite sources that forbid the expelling of a man from a shul
which the rabbis and Ora have been instituting against innocent men.
From: Shmuel Attal
Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2014 5:47 PM
To: israkin@hotmail.com
Subject: Confidential only for Israel kin
Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2014 5:47 PM
To: israkin@hotmail.com
Subject: Confidential only for Israel kin
Israel
Due to your present situation,
I would just like to clarify that you are not welcome at our Shul until:
You sign a notarized letter that you are willing, and accept to go to a Beit Din ( besides Rabbi Gestetner/Rabbi Abrahams) to discuss the get with your ex wife.
I don't want to be Mebaysh Pene Chavero Berabim, and this is why I did not ask you to leave the Shul last night, but from today if you come either by yourself, or with others, during weekday, Shabbat or Yom Tov, I will have no other choice but to ask you to leave the Shul.
Rabbi Attal
........................................................Due to your present situation,
I would just like to clarify that you are not welcome at our Shul until:
You sign a notarized letter that you are willing, and accept to go to a Beit Din ( besides Rabbi Gestetner/Rabbi Abrahams) to discuss the get with your ex wife.
I don't want to be Mebaysh Pene Chavero Berabim, and this is why I did not ask you to leave the Shul last night, but from today if you come either by yourself, or with others, during weekday, Shabbat or Yom Tov, I will have no other choice but to ask you to leave the Shul.
Rabbi Attal
From: Chabadofsummerlin
Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2014 11:44 PM
To: israel kin
Subject: Confidential - for Isreal Meir Kin
Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2014 11:44 PM
To: israel kin
Subject: Confidential - for Isreal Meir Kin
Dear Isreal Meir,
Due to the fact that you have entered a new marriage without giving a universally recognized Get, you are no longer welcome in Chabad ofSummerlin and may not attend. I have heard your side of the story and the unfortunate situations that you endured, yet Torah dictates the necessity of a bringing disputes to a proper Beis Din. Once you resolve this issue with a reputable and recognized Beis Din in both Isreal and the US we will be happy to have you back.
Due to the fact that you have entered a new marriage without giving a universally recognized Get, you are no longer welcome in Chabad ofSummerlin and may not attend. I have heard your side of the story and the unfortunate situations that you endured, yet Torah dictates the necessity of a bringing disputes to a proper Beis Din. Once you resolve this issue with a reputable and recognized Beis Din in both Isreal and the US we will be happy to have you back.
Wishing you Haztloch to overcome your obstacles and do what is proper in the eyes of HaShem and in the eyes of man.
Sincerely ,
Rabbi Yisroel Schanowitz
WHY IS IT FORBIDDEN TO EXPEL A MAN FROM A SHUL : By Akiva Wasserstein
In Shulchan Oruch
Orach Chaim , Siman 153 , Seifim 16-22, it discusses halochot pertaining to
davening in a shul. In seif 16, the Shulchan Oruch (SA) rules that even in a
shul belonging to a private individual, the owner cannot decide to
exclude a particular person. This is mentioned in Orchot Chaim as one of the
Cherems(ban) of Rabbeinu Gershom. Rabbeinu Gershom instituted many bans and this
was one of them. You can learn more about Rabbeinu Gershoms bans from the Beer
Hagolah on the SA at the end of a section on “Nidui Vecherem” (Yoreh Deah 334). The Mishna Berura s.k.88 cites the Gemara
Gittin which talks about the story of Kamtza Bar Kamtza as a reason why it is
forbidden to expel someone from a shul. The expelling of Bar Kamtza led to the
destruction of the Bais Hamikdosh. The
Tashbetz IV:7 brings another reason. The Rema rules in accordance with his
contemporary, Maharam Padua 85, that the Cherem Rabeinu Gershom can be
circumvented by arranging an advance stipulation. Essentially, the owner of the
shul can first exclude EVERYBODY and afterwards readmit them on
condition. However this ruling would be problematic to the Mishne Berura as how
can a stipulation be permitted to be used to humiliate a neighbor? The Tashbetz
explains that the reason one may exclude an ENTIRE congregation is that we may
assume that the congregation as a whole will manage to find another place to
daven, whereas an individual does not have this option if there is no other
shul as is in the case of Meir Kin who has just 1 shul in his area. Therefore we see that the evil rabbis today
make up halacha as they go, and choose to expel men from shul as they see fit,
disregarding the poskim and Cherem Derabeinu Gershom. They continue to invent the Torah as they go. The sin of
expelling a man not only violated the Cherem Rabbeinu Gershom, but causes these
men untold public shame which we know the Gemoro states that a person who shames
one in public loses their share in Olom Haba. It is my sincere hope that my
articles penetrates the hearts of these rabbis/activists and lend them
understanding that not only are they guilty of heinous crimes in the eyes of
Hashem, but that their tactics have served no purpose as kicking out Meir
Kin and Aharon Friedman have not helped achieve a Get on behalf of Tamar
Friedman or Lonna Kin. Attempting to
extort a Get from a man by violating the
Torah is like going to the Mikva while holding a dead insect in your hand. After
the conclusion of the Mendel Epstein debacle, the world can see that these
rabbis have been committing fraudulent acts under the “DISGUISE” of helping
women receive a GET. The time has come to change gears and approach hilchot Gittin
the correct way by using Torah principles and by approaching resolution using
Darkei Noam.
The hypocrisy of ORA, the so-called Las Vegas Kollel and other "rabbis" in Las Vegas in disregarding the seruv on Mr. Yitz sWyne signed by 8 rabbonim, including the late Rabbi Yisrael Belsky, zt'l, for his intolerable affliction of a WIDOW while they treat Meir kin in the same manner Mr. sWyne torments the WIDOW indicates which side is actually acting L'shem Shamayim.
ReplyDeletehttps://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/fe5ee7e77082c0d19e6a042a6d382974bd20d3391399e3a6e8b253ac3a8a62b6.png
RDE, what's your personal position on the Kin case?
ReplyDeleteOnce is enough.
ReplyDeleteit seems you posted the same article twice.
ReplyDeleteHatzlacha Vekol Tuv
It would be good to see some evidence backing some of the claims made.
ReplyDeleteAfter Meir was expelled from all of las Vegas shuls...
Please can we see an email or letter to this effect?
Call the shuls yourself. Ask them and they will tell you.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/22/us/a-wedding-amid-cries-of-unfinished-business-from-a-marriage.html?_r=1
ReplyDeleteMr. Kin, according to several members of the small Las Vegas Orthodox
community, has worshiped at two synagogues affiliated with the Chabad-Lubavitch Hasidic movement, which is known for welcoming a broad array of Jews. The rabbis at those synagogues do not count him toward a quorum needed for prayer because of the controversy over his divorce case, but they have declined to publicly rebuke him or force him out, according to Rabbi Shea Harlig, the head of Chabad of southern Nevada.
Mr. Stern and other rabbis supporting Ms. Kin say they will continue to press that Mr. Kin be exiled from the local Jewish community.
Therefore we see that [some people] today make up halacha as they go, and choose to expel men from shul as they see fit, disregarding the poskim and Cherem Derabeinu Gershom.
ReplyDeleteQuite ironic as the people who are placing excommunications on others are thereby, through their wrongful excommunication of others, are actually excommunicating themselves. They placed themselves under the cherem of Rabbeinu Gershom.
As Rav Reuvein Feinstein pointed out, the same holds true of the people who placed an "excommunication" on Aaron Friedman. They themselves are in excommunication/cherem for their misplaced activism. http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-KPK4jeS0_Mw/VqZlPS5Oj9I/AAAAAAAAUyY/yYk81pfbERg/s1600/Rav%2BReuven%2BFeinstein%2Baddition%2Bto%2BBaltimore%2BBeis%2BDin%2Bcrop.jpg
Somewhere in the land of Chelm
ReplyDeleteThat doesn't count as evidence! I would expect the author of this woeful tale to have already done this and attached emails or voice recordings of shuls describing this ban. At the very least, I would have thought the blog owner would verify some of these "facts" before allowing this to undermine the credibility of the blog site.
ReplyDeleteI have provided those emails to Akiva,and you will see them shortly posted. The chabad in las vegas are more than happy to give honor and aliyos to people who drive their cars on shabbos, eat treif,sleep with married women etc.. so lung as uou are a donator to the shul. Im confident that if meir kin was wealthy,they would of never kicked him out. Torah doesnt matter to them just the "Greenbacks"!
ReplyDeleteadded the letters of expulsion to the post
ReplyDeletethanks - corrected it
ReplyDelete@Daas Torah, have you contacted the Rabbis who sent these emails? Have they confirmed that they sent them?
ReplyDeleteIs there a similar email or voice message by Rabbi Shea Harlig that can be reproduced here?
ReplyDeletehttps://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/22/us/a-wedding-amid-cries-of-unfinished-business-from-a-marriage.html
ReplyDelete"Ms. Kin, who runs a real estate company, and her supporters say that Mr. Kin, a physician assistant, is demanding $500,000 and full custody of their 12-year-old son in exchange for the divorce. And they cast doubt on whether he really has the support of 100 rabbis. Reached at his Las Vegas home on Thursday, as a photographer took pictures of him and his bride in the driveway, Mr. Kin declined to comment."
Please can Mr Kin or the author of this guest post confirm whether indeed Mr Kin has no conditions on giving this Get? Why would Mr Kin decline to comment if this claim was so outrageously false?
"Daattorah has covered extensively the fake heter issued to Tamar Friedman to remarry without a Get by Shmuel Kaminetsky and Ephraim Greenblatt."
ReplyDeletePlease correct this paragraph. It was R Nota Greenblatt, not R Ephriam.
A word of caution.
ReplyDeleteIf someone wishes to embark on a publicity campaign, they should be careful to be completely honest with the public. Being completely honest includes providing the full picture of the situation, including those aspects that are not favourable to the person we are asked to support.
If the readers have good reason to believe they are being deliberately misled in any way, that would likely result in such a publicity campaign to backfire, and support would probably be garnered against the intended cause.
If there is anything highly pertinent to this story that has not been shared by Meir Kinn or his supporters, I would urge them to do so for the benefit of all concerned.
What for? Who do you think you are, Jill Stein? Monty wanted proof, he got proof.
ReplyDeleteThey sent them. I know both those hypocritical rabbis, who have no problem associating with the documented tormentor of a WIDOW!! They have no business demanding Mr. Kin go to a different Bais Din than the one he already chose.
ReplyDelete“Daattorah has covered extensively the fake heter issued to Tamar Friedman to remarry without a Get by Shmuel Kaminetsky and Ephraim Greenblatt. Then we see that Aharon Friedman, Tamar’s husband, is still barred from entering shuls in his area despite the fact that she is remarried!”
ReplyDeleteMy explanation: hatred of radical feminists to those that disagree with them. See Glick in today Jpost:
http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Our-World-The-Lefts-never-ending-war-475180
“The purpose of the film is obvious. Bereft of an attractive platform to sell the public, they are selling the only thing they have left to rally their ever dwindling base: hatred.”
From reading some of the comments written by Asher Kauffman, it would appear that one of the points of contention is which beis din is to be used to carry out the Get. Is there a reason why Mr Kin feels it is so important that the Get be carried out by ONLY those two Rabbis he chooses? Given the severity of gittin, one would have expected that it is in everyone's interest for the Get to be done under a highly respected beis din so that there can be no claims afterwards surrounding its legitimacy?
ReplyDeleteMeir remarries with a Heter from 100 rabbis...
ReplyDeletePlease can we see this heter and the names of the 100 signatories?
I find it intriguing that you are always a doubter about a man being innocent. First you ask for proof that he was expelled from shul, now you ask proof of the heter 100 rabbonim etc...then you ask that he arrange a GET at a "respected Bais Din". THERE ARE NO RESPECTED BAIS DIN!!!. According to many Shmuel Kaminetsky is the Godol Hador, yet do you recognize Tamars adulterous wedding? Did you also ask for proof of Tamars marriage?
ReplyDeleteYou fail to read this article in its entirety. It mentions that the strategy of Lonna Kins enablers is faulty because after 12 years of no progress , whats next??? Rabbi Gestetner asked that all forms of pressure be removed PRIOR TO THE END! Therefore since Lonna and her enablers want to continue these tactics, she has assured herself to remain a self made Aguna forever
ReplyDelete"Given the severity of gittin, one would have expected that it is in
ReplyDeleteeveryone's interest for the Get to be done under a highly respected beis
din so that there can be no claims afterwards surrounding its
legitimacy?" DID YOU ALSO SAY THE SAME ABOUT TAMARS FAKE WEDDING? "GIVEN THE SEVERITY OF THE SIN OF ADULTERY,IT IS IN EVERYONES INTEREST TO HAVE A CONSENSUS OF 100 RABBIS SIGNING OFF THAT TAMAR CAN REMARRY WITHOUT A GET AND NOT JUST THE 2 RABBIS NAMED KAMINETSKY AND GREENBLATT"!!!
Monty,
ReplyDeleteGiven the extreme severity of afflicting a widow AND that a documented seruv signed by a widely accepted legitimate Bais Din exists, why are you not concerned that Young Israel has an EXCOMMUNICATED rabbi perpetuating the situation we read of every Shabbos Chazon in the Haftorah? Affliction of a WIDOW, like adultery, is an Aveirah D'oraisah!! What is transpiring between M. Kin & L. Kin is a dispute that is supposed to be handled by a Bais Din. Mr. Kin went to a Bais Din. It is not for Mr. Jeremy Stern or Mr. Yehoshua Fromowitz to interfere nor to declare that Bais Din is unacceptable. Do they declare all the gittin produced by that Bais Din unacceptable? Because if such is the case then Tamar Epstein is not the only adulteress and there are many, many, many mamzerim!!
Akiva wasserstein thanks for the well stated article. Lonna, Ora,and the Rabbis are at a loss at what to do next. They have fired their last bullet by kicking meir out of the shul against halocho with no positive results. Now they are at standstill and cant figure out whats next. In the meantime meir appears happily married and the rumors are that his wife is Iy'H expecting their first baby. Mazel tov Meir. Much nachas and stand strong against those corrupted and twisted evil amongst us. May many more men have your fortitude.
ReplyDeleteWhy are you getting so angry (writing in caps)? There is nothing wrong with trying to find out more about your case, particularly if you are asking for support from the readers here. I would have thought that it would be in your interest to produce as much evidence as you can to back up your claims as that would only strengthen your position. If you can demonstrate support from 100 Rabbis, many people would support you. Alternatively, if you are now being evasive about it, one can only question why you are so reluctant to produce it. People may question whether or not it actually exists.
ReplyDeleteAccording to one of the commentators below, it turns out that the Get is not unconditional. Please can someone list all the conditions that Meir/Rabbi gestetner have demanded before they will proceed with the Get. It is a shame this was not made clear from the start.
ReplyDeleteRDE, In the interests of fairness, please can you include this interview at the bottom of the main blogpost.
ReplyDeletehttps://m.youtube.com/watch?list=UUOfJOiLYKGAOqbtm-JohF9g&v=a3s4ldmAFHU
That is great news. The question remains however, is why this guest piece was published? If Meir has everything he wants why is he launching this publicity campaign and his supporters angrily writing in caps? Is he really that happy? Wouldn't he be happier if he just gave the Get like a mensch without any conditions to terminate a marriage that was dead 10 years ago. What is he holding on to?
ReplyDeleteMonty is an ora troll. I guess after reading akiva,s post in its entirety you dont get akivas point, His point is that Lonna and Ora have no strategy. They used all their ammunition. Meir is following his Bais Din's dictate which is no Get while pressure is applied. If you cant understand that,then you need to freshen up on hilchot gittin.i spoke with Gestetner and he reiterated this point. The ball is in their court
ReplyDeleteI was not aware Meir Kin was a widow. Was he married to someone else before Lonna? Did that wife pass away?
ReplyDeleteIncidentally, my politely asking questions about this case, that has been raised by one of Meir's supporters, is not persecution. Please can you answer my questions and not change the topic to discuss Shabbos Chazon or ORA.
Rabbi Gestetner, Meir’s Bais Din in Monsey Ny, has repeatedly asked Lonna herself as well as her emissaries who have called him to remove all acts of coercion prior to negotiating an end to this saga.
ReplyDeleteI was under the impression that the secular court case has completed and all that remains is for the Get to be carried out. What else is outstanding? Please can Meir Kin or one of his supporters list some examples of "acts of coercion" that Meir is waiting to be removed.
Taken from http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2012/05/problematic-seruv-of-meir-kin.html:
ReplyDelete"Unfortunately both Rav Yitzhak Peretz, head of the Rabbinut Rabbinic courts, and Rav Shlomo Amar, chief Rabbi of Israel, say that this particular Beit Din [Rabbi Gestetner, Meir’s Bais Din in Monsey Ny], and the Rabbanim that run it, are not qualified to judge Gittin nor are they recognized by Rabbinute. A Get that is not universally recognized is pointless, which is what this discussion is all about."
"IF the State of Israel will consider the children Mamzerim if she remarries using this Get, surely the majority of Chareidim, at least within Israel, will as well. Which puts us in no better a position that with a Get Meusah."
No. Only someone like you who looks for an excuse not to accept what you've asked for keeps asking for proof over and over. Why did you ask for proof of the expulsion before asking for the proof of the Heter? Because now you are trying to rationalize the improper expulsion!! And even if there was no Heter Meah Rabbonim, how does that permit the shuls that have violated the Cherem D'rabbeinu on banning someone from shul? Where does it say that a bigamist is not permitted in shul? A moser upon who there is a seruv is not permitted in shul yet these same hypocritical rabbis who banned Meir Kin allow Mr. Yitz sWyne, the tormentor of a WIDOW to partake of eat and drink at parties in their synagogues!! That is far, far worse, an outright violation of Shulchan Aruch, Yoreh Deah siman 334!!
ReplyDeleteYou tell me how and why those Chabad shuls in Las Vegas are permitted to disregard those halachos on Yitz sWyne that have been stated outright on a verified document produced by Bais Din.
So? Had she gone to Bais Din first instead of first going to secular court she would have had her Get. Mr. Kin's first marriage was dissolved without any of these problems. Why? Because the divorce was handled in the proper Halachic fashion to begin with by both parties! Not as this woman did by first going to secular court!
ReplyDeleteAt 24:47 she says "the Rabbis can change the laws, they can do it"! ??? Then why don't we just have rabbis change the laws of Shabbos and Kashrus?!! Why not change the laws so she can have two husbands just like Tamar Epstein does. While we're at it, why not let her have a wife instead of a husband? After all, that's legal now in NY.
ReplyDeleteDear Rabi Akiva, what you have written is Kaftor voFerach, every word is worth assara zahav. I could have not put it any better. The Epstein's are BH done with. Those that think that they have gotten away with a song and a dance ratting out, are not done yet. veHoElokim Ino leyodo will get you, if not today, then tomorrow, if not tomorrow then the day after. Yesh gam mochor leachar zman! Same goes for ORA vesiyatam. Yes indeed, yesh manhig laBIRA and he will see to nekoim le'einenu dam avodecho hashofuch. Ho'odom yireh laenayim, veHashem yireh laleivov. You spill the blood of innocent husbands, kidnapping children from their Father's arms, kivyachol solving self manufactured agunot. Epstein took 60K a pop claimed the same, he took monies lah lishmah with pure incentives. We hope and pray ken yovdu, vehu yapilem chalolim chalolim.
ReplyDeleteMarrying Esihes Ish and bringing mamzeirim into this world R'L' we will not tolerate. Ad mosay ato osseh yisroel Ba'alei mumim? Ad mosay meanto leonos miponoy, rachmono lesheizvei?
it would be more helpful if you cited the actual reasons why someone thinks that Rav Gestetner is "not qualified to judge Gittin". He obviously is a solid talmid chachom.
ReplyDeleteIs Rabbi Kaminetsky more qualified to be involved in Gittin - especially the claim that no Get is needed for an aishes ish?
BTW not being recognized by Rabbinute doesn't mean that someone isn't competent nor does it mean that the children would be viewed as mamzerim by the majority of Chareidim in Israel
My advice to Lonna Kin is to apologize and take back everything involved with the Order she got at the beginning of her ordeal. That Order was surely groundless, mean and libels Meir Kinn. At the beginning of her ordeal, looks like she was tearing her house down with her own hands. I quote:
ReplyDelete“The wisest of women builds her house, But folly tears it down with its own hands” (Proverbs 14:1).
Lonna Kin did a bad thing to her husband to get that Order. I quote:
“What a rare find is a capable wife! Her worth is far beyond that of rubies. Her husband puts his confidence in her, And lacks no good thing. She is good to him, never bad, All the days of her life.” (Proverbs 31:10-12).
With the greatest respect, that was a quote taken from one of your previous postings (link included).
ReplyDeleteNow you are being deliberately obtuse. You know darn well that I have answered you and have been referring to the abuse of a WIDOW by Mr. Yitzchak sWyne, the excommunicated "rabbi" of Young Israel of Las Vegas, that has been hypocritically ignored by the same community leaders who have ostracized Meir Kin. This last message of yours proves you are disingenuous.
ReplyDeleteThe defamation and ostracism of Mr. Kin within the Jewish community while he can see they hypocritically laud and support the excommunicated abuser of a widow.
ReplyDeleteApparently, Meir doesn't have everything he wants. For one, he's ostracized by the community. Also, he's ORA's poster boy for making Lonna a Fakegunah. On both accounts, not a pleasant place to be.
ReplyDeleteMoreover, he's out a lot $$$ from all the legal expenses which he incurred due to the fact that he was dragged into arka'os against his will, and contrary to din Torah. He's not extorting her for a Get. He just wants to be reimbursed for the damages she caused him. Quite reasonable.
Talking about just giving the Get like a mensch, is a nice idea, when the other side is also dealing "menschlich". But when one side deals "un-menschlich", then there are repercussions. Tough luck. You lie in the bed you make...
Full disclosure: I don't know either side in this dispute. All my information is from reading what has been posted on the internet. Meir position seems to make sense. If Lonna's enablers want the court of public opinion to have sympathy for her, they need to come up with good responses. That's all, folks!
What was the Order at the beginning that you refer to? Please can you elaborate.
ReplyDeletewhat does that have to do with what I asked? The link he provided doesn't go anywhere
ReplyDeleteSo if she takes down everything she posted about Meir (she probably doesn't have permission to remove newspaper articles online), then Meir will let her receive her Get?
ReplyDeletehttp://daattorah.blogspot.com/2012/05/problematic-seruv-of-meir-kin.html
ReplyDeleteBill, I know who Meir Kin is since he was married to his first wife. I also lived in Las Vegas before he moved there. What is very pertinent is that the actions taken against him by the Las Vegas Kollel and the Chabad rabbis demonstrated complete hypocrisy and as such was counter to their claims of trying to help Lonna.
ReplyDeleteEven in the case of a rosho like Yitz sWyne, Shulchan Aruch says we ignore him, we are supposed to shun him (which the Kollel did not do, they aided the moser as Mr. sWyne is declared by Bet Din to be). Contrast this to what the Kollel led by Mr. Yehoshua Fromowitz did to Meir Kin. They went out of their way to humiliate him and embarrass his bride nationally without first hearing his side of the story. There is NO legitimate seruv on Meir kin as there is on Mr. Yitz sWyne. Mr. sWyne gets to advertise on the Hillygram in Los Angeles for people to join him despite being excommunicated.
So why should Meir Kin be treated worse than the tormentor of a widow upon whom there is an actual seruv?
So, in terms of clearly defined action points, what does lonna need to do before Meir will let her receive her Get?
ReplyDeletethanks for the correct link to Rabbi Tzadok's post. It doesn't change my original comment.
ReplyDeleteThe Israeli Rabbis are not to be trusted as there are letters from Gedolim including Rabbi Kanievsky that Rabbanut Gittin in many cases are possul because if their coercion tactics, therefore I wouldnt rely on their word.. Secondly Lonna herself called Rabbi Gestetner that she wants to pick up the GET, so she knows all about the LOSHON HORA against Rabbi Gestetner and she doesnt buy the L'H. You can verify with Rabbi Gestetner that she called. His Number is 845-425-9708
ReplyDeleteThank You for that comment. You hit it on the nail's head. Meir was never looking to extort money. In fact a commentator above commented that his previous divorce was amicable and that was because his former wife Perel was a MENTSCH and didnt drag him thru the mud as Lonna Did. So lets begin to analyze the damages. 1. His wasted lawyers fees. 2.ORA rallies costed him 1-2 job losses. 3. defamation of character via internet, public rallies , Jewish press, ousting from shuls etc...4.stole his mitzva of Veshinantom as his son was stolen from him.5. Stole the mitzvas involving in davening with a minyan as he has been deprived of davening with a minyan for over 2 years.6. what about the humiliation that ora performed outside his wedding etc....................When one starts to analyze these kinds of damages, they amount in the MILLIONS! as we see that Kamtza Bar Kamtza's humiliation was so severe that the Bais Hanikdosh was destroyed. So to MONTY and the other Lonna defenders this cannot be laughed upon. She must apologize and make restitution for all damages. This is the Halocho. If you dont like it, then read the article above from R. Moshe Feinstein regarding Feminism where he states that any woman wanting to change the Torah is a Kofer.
ReplyDeleteDT , I will be sending you a letter from R. Gestetner that verifies that ORA is the Aguna enabler in The Lonna Kin case. Please post upon receiving so Monty can see
ReplyDeleteThat includes anything ORA and other advocates for her have currently posted. Then, I have been told, the Bet Din will allow her to pick up the Get. There may be other things that will be covered in Bet Din and they will be dealt with as they should have been had Lonna appeared in Bet Din as she should have when this first began.
ReplyDeleteIt should also be noted that ORA hounded Meir Kin out of Los Angeles and followed him to Las Vegas where the corrupt hypocritical Kollel and Yehoshua Fromowitz (who supported and aided the excommunicated tormentor of a widow) caused a national Chillul Hashem by publicly humiliating his kallah, something that even Jezebel never did!
ReplyDeleteAlways fun to engage with trolls.
ReplyDeleteTrue, she herself does not have the ability to get all the articles removed, which leaves Lonna in a tough spot. She can't move on until the articles are removed in good faith. But let's not forget the little secret: she didn't have the ability to get the articles posted herself either. It was advocates who got those articles posted. These same advocates do have the ability to get the articles removed, but they refuse to do so. Lonna is at the mercy of those who advocated for "her".
Well, if Lonna's advocates really wanted to help her, why are they not getting the articles removed? The dirty little secret is that they don't want to, even though it is hurting Lonna. They feel that their overall cause will be hurt if they get the articles removed, so they refuse to remove it. What about their "concern" for Lonna? They are willing to sacrifice Lonna for the "greater good" of their cause.
How disgusting!
How repulsive!
They were just using Lonna! They have only caused her undo hurt, aggravation and trouble. She herself, and Meir, are left to deal with their vicious actions in the name of some "greater cause". Had they not gotten involved, then Lonna would have compromised a long, long time ago. Rabbi Gestener and Rabbi Abraham would not have been involved. The parties would have been forced to the negotiating table, and they would have compromised. Either that, or they would have had a sincere and legitimate Beis Din process without Meir having a court order forcing him to withhold information and testimony from the Beis Din.
Just a very sad situation where Lonna was used.
DT, please post Rabbi gestetners letter where he states that he spoke to lonna kin and instructed her to remove all negative things about Meir from the Internet and have Meir return to shul and Lonna told him " Ora doesn't want to take it down". I called Rabbi Gestetner and verified to me that its true that Lonna told him that. SO THIS VERIFIES AKIVAS SRTICLE THAT NO ONE CARES ABOUT LONNA AND THAT ORA IS USING LONNA AS A POSTER CHILD AND ENABLING AND MAINTAINING THIS WOMAN AS AN AGUNA.
ReplyDeleteit is my opinion that ORA should carry a liability policy that would pay out for damages incurred against an innocent man. we see in the kin case that ORA got involved in a situation where the woman was guilty , and they attacked Meir instead, in fact their first rally occured only several months after their separation at Good Samaritan Hospital, where Meir was fired from his job,and they dragged this on for 12 years causing this man a lot of damage and now someone has to be responsible to pay for these damages. So in my opinion Ora should reimburse him millions for wrongful defamation or perhaps JEREMY STERN FROM ORA should be held responsible to redeem lonna for his aggrresive campaign against the innocent Meir Kin who only asked for her to come to a din torah initially at Rabbi Gobioff's Bais din Even Hamishpot and she refused! BTW, nobody had anything bad to say about Rabbi Gabbioff's Baisdin yet you chose not to appear and instead to immediately persecute him in the Civil courts. She figured under the advice of ORA that SHE will achieve everything in the courts and later after getting everything from the courts to ask for a Get. what you didn't realize was that she was going to lose at the end and now Jeremy Stern from ORA after seeing that his strategy failed he continues in his failing strategy to persecute mayor kin instead of admitting that he erred and that this is not helping her achieve a Get. so ladies and gentlemen this is where we stand today both ORA and CHABAD of Las Vegas have their tails between their legs, I don't know how to proceed from here. So I will tell you what you need to do, you need to acknowledge your mistake, and you need to allow him back in shul, otherwise you are continuously hurting Lana as you are preventing her from receiving a get. So in reality it is not meir or rabbi gestetner holding the Get,but Ora and Lonna , and only they hold the key to finalizing and completing this long drawn-out Saga
ReplyDeleteI posted the letter already
ReplyDeleteYou are correct mr. Kaufman in the video Lana insinuates that she wants an annulment this shows you that you're dealing with a woman who believes in Reform Judaism
ReplyDeleteIf ora take down the information about lonna from their website and allow you back into Shul, will you then allow her to collect her Get without any further conditions?
ReplyDeleteFor everyone's benefit, please can you also post an English translation of this letter.
ReplyDeleteSo even if all the online material is taken down, there are likely to be further conditions before she can receive her Get. Have I understood this correctly?
ReplyDeletePlease can someone clarify the following:
ReplyDelete1) "Meir deposited a GET in 2008 at his Bais Din". Please can he be very clear what conditions (if any) need to be met before Lonna can receive this Get? Lonna claimed that among the conditions, a sum of $500,000 must be paid. Is this correct? Does he have a list of links that must be taken down, after which she will then receive her Get with no further conditions?
2) "Meir remarries with a Heter from 100 rabbis". Please can we see this heter or at least the names of these 100 Rabbis. If confidentiality is an issue, I would even be satisfied for the blog owner to see this document and then verify to everyone here that he has seen it.
3) Would Meir be open to the possibility of using a different Bais Din for the Get? Is Rabbi Gestetner's Bais Din the only Bais Din in the world that Meir will allow to do the Get?
4) In the video, Lonna claims that she initially filed for divorce (in the secular courts with a Rabbinic heter) but then terminated proceedings. We are then told that Meir filed a fresh divorce application in the secular courts. Is this true? Did Meir receive a heter to launch a fresh application in the secular courts?
"The road to hell is paved with good intentions"
ReplyDeletehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_road_to_hell_is_paved_with_good_intentions
In this case, I suspect that the road to hell is paved with $$$ from ORA'$ fundraising machine.
Monty,you have many questions.call rabbi Gestetner 845 4259708 and ask him,but on the other hand you don't believe that he,s an acceptable bais din so maybe you're out of luck.perhaps u can write lonna a get as she would be happy with an annulment anyways
ReplyDeleteI wouldn't know. If the Bais Din paskens there are other conditions she must complete or if she makes claims to the Bais Din of conditions Mr. Kin must fulfill, then it is both of their obligations to fulfill them. That applies equally to both parties.
ReplyDeleteAre these questions a little too awkward for you to answer? Perhaps the answers don't paint you in such a favorable light?
ReplyDeleteMonty, what is your interest in this? Is it just morbid curiosity? What will you do with the answers when you have them?
ReplyDeleteI can tell you why I am involved. National Council of Young Israel concealed the seruv on the rabbi of Young Israel of Las Vegas. When the Kollel came to Las Vegas they deliberately ignored the seruv. Hypocritically they had Meir Kin barred from davening in any Las Vegas shul while they continued to flout the halachos of dealing with an excommunicated moser. It is because of these hypocrisies a man I used to respect and admire in Queens was dragged down into the muck to become like these corrupt young punks who call themselves rabbis.
This is all well and good, but why is there such reluctance to answer such basic factual questions? This only makes it harder for readers to support Meir's side.
ReplyDeleteSo if I have understood this correctly (and it is taking a lot of effort to get straight answers from you), then you are making various demands such as taking down material online, only after which a new case can be opened in your Bais din, whereby a completely new divorce settlement is under review, and everything gets put back on the table, including custody of the children?
ReplyDeleteDid you initiate a divorce case from California courts to decide this already?
Perhaps you are just trolling because no answer satisfies you?
ReplyDelete1) A list of links is easily obtained by anyone using Google, Bing or Yahoo.
2) Even the corrupt Las Vegas Kollel acknowledged he has a Heter Meah Rabbonim:
Jewish law prohibits men from taking multiple wives. But Mr. Kin,
according to several rabbis here, apparently relied on a legal loophole,
which says that if a man can get the special permission of 100 rabbis
to take a second wife, he is able to do so. (NY Times)
3) Why should he go to a different Bet Din? In the case of Aharon Friedman both Rabbis Winter (zt'l) and Klavan (zt'l) answered Tamar Epstein that the first Bais Din, Bais Din of Baltimore, had jurisdiction and they would not take the case in Washington DC as she wanted.
4) As I was told by either Rav Hillel David,shlita, or Rav Hershel Kurzrock, shlita, (I cannot remember which one) once a secular lawsuit is filed, the other party may respond in kind to protect themselves.
I know that when Meir was divorced from his first wife Perel there was no dispute and the rabbi who handled it did so fairly. I confirmed that with her relatives. If Lonna was asked to go to a Bet Din and went instead to secular court, then ORA has no right to cast aspersions on the Bais Din he did go to.
ReplyDeleteמשלי י"ד א'
ReplyDeleteחַכְמוֹת נָשִׁים בָּנְתָה בֵיתָהּ וְאִוֶּלֶת בְּיָדֶיהָ תֶהֶרְסֶנּוּ:
משלי ל"א י"ב
גְּמָלַתְהוּ טוֹב וְלֹא רָע כֹּל יְמֵי חַיֶּיהָ:
משלי כ"ו י"ז
מַחֲזִיק בְּאָזְנֵי כָלֶב עֹבֵר מִתְעַבֵּר עַל רִיב לֹּא לוֹ:
רש"י משלי כ"ו י"ז
מחזיק באזני כלב - העובר להתעבר על ריב לא לו הרי הוא כאוחז באזני כלב הגורם שישכנו על חנם:
I heard Lonna Kin say on the 30+” video clip that she got an Order against her husband at the very beginning of their squabbling. It doesn’t matter exactly what the Order against her husband said. In my case Susan got an Order against me July 1992 while I was in Israel trying to make שלום בית. I don’t know what the Order states. I never saw it. I don’t have a copy. I just have the etrack description. Going to the courts to get an order is a serious bad act against the husband. Sometimes people need to do it in a life threatening situation. Many times it’s just 2 dogs fighting---outsiders should stay away, or they’ll get bit. Are you following me, Monty?
1) "Meir deposited a GET in 2008 at his Bais Din". Please can he be very clear what conditions (if any) need to be met before Lonna can receive this Get? Lonna claimed that among the conditions, a sum of $500,000 must be paid. Is this correct? Does he have a list of links that must be taken down, after which she will then receive her Get with no further conditions?
ReplyDeleteA list of links is easily obtained by anyone using Google, Bing or Yahoo.
So once these links are taken down, then Lonna can receive her Get unconditionally?
2) "Meir remarries with a Heter from 100 rabbis". Please can we see this heter or at least the names of these 100 Rabbis. If confidentiality is an issue, I would even be satisfied for the blog owner to see this document and then verify to everyone here that he has seen it.
Even the corrupt Las Vegas Kollel acknowledged he has a Heter Meah Rabbonim:
Jewish law prohibits men from taking multiple wives. But Mr. Kin, according to several rabbis here, apparently relied on a legal loophole, which says that if a man can get the special permission of 100 rabbis to take a second wife, he is able to do so. (NY Times)
You have brought this case to the Daas Torah blog, it is therefore reasonable to request at the very least that Daas Torah blog can see this heter. Why are you so reluctant to share such an important document that will add strength to your cause? You were very eager to share the Bais Din letter from Rabbi Gestetner, what is the difference?
3) Would Meir be open to the possibility of using a different Bais Din for the Get? Is Rabbi Gestetner's Bais Din the only Bais Din in the world that Meir will allow to do the Get?
Why should he go to a different Bet Din? In the case of Aharon Friedman both Rabbis Winter (zt'l) and Klavan (zt'l) answered Tamar Epstein that the first Bais Din, Bais Din of Baltimore, had jurisdiction and they would not take the case in Washington DC as she wanted.
If it is simply a matter of carrying out the straightforward Get procedure then it should make no difference which Bais Din carries it out. Do you intend to use your Bais Din for any other purpose other than simply the Jewish Get ritual?
4) In the video, Lonna claims that she initially filed for divorce (in the secular courts with a Rabbinic heter) but then terminated proceedings. We are then told that Meir filed a fresh divorce application in the secular courts. Is this true? Did Meir receive a heter to launch a fresh application in the secular courts?
As I was told by either Rav Hillel David,shlita, or Rav Hershel Kurzrock, shlita, (I cannot remember which one) once a secular lawsuit is filed, the other party may respond in kind to protect themselves.
The problem with this argument is that you were not defending yourself. The lawsuit filed by Lona using the NY secular courts had been dropped, and you subsequently launched a fresh application from the California courts. This is a violation of halacha, perhaps RDE can confirm this?
The readers support Meir's side. You are the troll who wants to nitpick what is far less important than the fact that Meir Kin engaged a Bais Din while Lonna went to secular court! First things first! He is married already so it doesn't matter who the 100 rabbis were!! Lonna wants the get, she is the one who has to undo the damage she caused by allowing ORA free reign to act in her behalf.
ReplyDeleteYou can't even keep the players straight here, troll.
ReplyDeleteYou are repeating questions that have already been answered and you refuse to acknowledge. You keep coming up with more questions because you are trolling for a GOTCHA! Yet you refuse questions that are put to you. But I will make it simple for your little mind. here is just one simple little question for your item 1 here: Ready? Here's the question which incidentally was already answered:
ReplyDeleteYou said -> So once these links are taken down, then Lonna can receive her Get unconditionally?
The question is -> When the links are down and she goes to the Bet Din, will she then obey the psak of the Bais Din regarding custody, visitation, compensation for damages or any other matter they tell her?
These are not conditions, these would be instructions from the Bais Din.
Now answer just that one itty-bitty question and maybe you won't have to ask any more questions.
If it really doesn't matter, why did you bring this case to the daas Torah blog, why are you getting so angry that you need to write in upper case, and why do you even feel the need to respond to any comments at all?
ReplyDeleteIf on the other hand, you are interested in seeing an end to this sorry situation, please clearly state your conditions on lonna, after which you would give her an unconditional Get.
Thank you for clarifying this now. So, what Meir is asking for, is that Lonna takes down all the links on the internet about this case, after which, she will then be "allowed" to enter into a bais din case where everything is put back on the table (custody, financial settlements, etc...) and which completely disregards the outcome of the secular court case ruling on the suit that Meir started in the California courts? The Get will be included as part of that bais din case.
ReplyDeleteIs this correct?
If the divorce case went to bais din to give a ruling on custody, financial settlements, etc, would Rabbi gestetner be able to sit in such a bais din given his involvement so far? Any Dayan who has had prior knowledge of a case cannot preside over it.
ReplyDeleteGerald, she never produced that "Heter" to go to civilcourt because there was no Heter! You know why? She never accussed him of violence and therefore no honest rabbi would give a heter to go to court against halocho. Therefore she cant get out of the fact that she violated the Torah by dragging himthru the mud for 12 years. For that there is a price to pay. Perhaps Monty her supporter wants to redeem her
ReplyDeleteLike I said before, you are mixing up who the posters are here. And I see you can't answer a simple question. Instead you get belligerent and sanctimonious. Lonna Kin already knows what to do. She's been told enough times. If she wants the get the ball is in her court.
ReplyDeleteMeir Kin will soon have a shul where he will be welcome to daven in Las Vegas so he doesn't have to do a thing. Besides, he gets schar for davening as if with a minyan while those who barred him from the shuls get a different reckoning.
Sounds about right but someone else needs to confirm it. What I know is that shortly after ORA's fiasco picketing Meir Kin's nephew's wedding Lonna called Rabbi Gestetner and said she is ready to pick up the Get. Rabbi Gestetner told her she must first remove everything defaming Meir Kin before the Bais Din will even talk to her. What will take place when she accomplishes that, I have no idea. For all I know they could just hand her the Get and that will be that. But I do know for certain Rabbi Gestetner will absolutely not give her the Get while there is the possibility it would be a Get Meusah. IMHO it should also be necessary for the Las Vegas shuls to stop barring him from minyanim.
ReplyDeleteDid Meir kin have a heter to initiate court proceedings from a California court after lonna dropped her ny case? Will you finally admit that Meir's heter meah rabbonim doesn't exist either? Why are you not satisfied with the proceedings of the California court case that you initiated? Are you looking to keep going to different courts until you get a result that you want?
ReplyDeleteWe have plenty of rabbis in Monsey who can serve as Dayanim. Let's get past the first step. Lonna needs to remove everything possible from the Internet and tells Attal and Schanowitz to treat Meir Kin like anyone else who comes to their shuls to daven. Everything else is moot until then.
ReplyDeleteSo Meir could be open to using a different Bais Din?
ReplyDeleteMeir wants access to all shuls everywhere anf not just the ones you mentioned
ReplyDeleteIt sounds like this needs to be confirmed by Meir (or one of his representatives here) before anyone can take any sides in this publicity campaign.
ReplyDeleteIt would be extremely unwise for Lona to take any action regarding online material, and it would be unwise for any of the Las Vegas shuls to change their position until Meir provided 100% clarification as to what he will provide in return.
It is extremely foolish and not at all realistic to expect anyone to take the steps being demanded here without knowing what will be given in return.
Perhaps Meir can write a guest blog posts making his position much clearer than we have managed to identify here.
You can rant all you want. But know that there is a underground org. That is fighting feminist people like you who dont value the torah and twist the halocho wherever is possible. It is us who brought mendel epstein down and we will prevail in other cases as well. Lonna stands no chance of getting a Get as well as other cases we are handling until you follow the Halocho. We will not be accessories in producing mamzerim or violating Eshet Ish because of Get Meusa situations
ReplyDeleteHey Troll! He didn't need any Heter because he filed a "status only" dissolution of the marriage ( http://www.leagle.com/decision/In%20CACO%2020100810021/IN%20RE%20MARRIAGE%20OF%20KIN )
ReplyDeleteThat is like the reverse of getting a marriage license and a civil ceremony before having Chupa/Kiddushin. I know someone who got a civil marriage at Ramapo Town Hall before their chasunah so they were already legally married several days earlier. As far as the civil authorities ONLY are concerned he is divorced even though halachically he is still married to Lonna. In other words, Meir Kin's action in California was purely clerical, not judicial which requires a Bais Din.
Monty, you fire off your mouth without understanding of halacha. meir filed for divorce in California just to obtain a civil divorce document and not to sue her. DINA DEMALCHUSA DINA. just as the law mandates that you need to obtain a driver's license before operating a vehicle, you need to also obtained a civil divorce before getting remarried. A jew may not use the Civil courts when you are suing someone to try to remove from them children,money or property. But if you are just asking for a piece of paper,namely the divorce document,then not only is allowed but the torah mandates that you follow the laws of the land. Contrary to Lonna, she SUED meir to take away his son, monies and more in the civil courts. That is a clear violation in halocho. But of course you being Jeremy Stern from ORA, the only torah you follow is Feminism
ReplyDeletePlease can you clarify which court awarded full custody of the child (children?) to Lona? Was it the California court or the New York one?
ReplyDeleteThank you mr. Kaufman for bringing up that legal website that shows Lana trying to appeal Meir's divorce, but what makes it more interesting is that Lana does not seem to care about how lonna was trying to use the Appellate courts to force Meir to issue a Get. Once again this shows that Lana and her Camp don't care about the Torah as it is forbidden by the Torah to use the Civil courts to enforce a Get
ReplyDelete"The court entered judgment of nullity on April 23, 2009, on the ground
ReplyDeletethat the marriage was bigamous, although the court found that both
Israel and Lonna "had good cause to and did believe that the marriage to
each other was valid.""
Please can you explain the background to this?
Absolutely not! When I filed a Din Torah with the Baltimore Bais Din against the Mikvah Emunah Society of Greater Washington the MES responded they had a right according to halacha that the Din Torah be held at the Bais Din in its city. The BBD agreed but several rabbis on the Washington Vaad's Bet Din could not serve on the case because of vested interests in the outcome. Then before the Din Torah could take place Rabbi Kalman Winter's father-in-law married the widow and mother of the principal donors. As a result the Din Torah reverted to Baltimore. So without a valid halachic reason that a different Bet Din must handle the case, the original Bet Din retains jurisdiction.
ReplyDeleteGive up the trolling and obfuscation. Nobody is being fooled by you.
No. Lonna is obligated to stop all harmful against Meir Kin because she is the one who instigated them. Meir does not have to do a thing and Rabbi Gestetner will not convene the Bais Din on the case until she corrects her actions. Meir is happily married again. If Lonna wants to be able to do the same the onus is upon her to take the necessary steps. If Mr Jeremy Sterm, Mr Yehoshua Fromowitz, Shmuel Attal, Yisroel Schanowitz. the LV Kollel, et al want to keep her in marital limbo, then she has to take actions against them.
ReplyDeleteMore power to you, vecheilcho leoraysa!
ReplyDeleteMonty writes:
ReplyDelete“Thank you for clarifying this now. So, what Meir is asking for, is that Lonna takes down all the links on the internet about this case, after which, she will then be "allowed" to enter into a bais din case where everything is put back on the table (custody, financial settlements, etc...) and which completely disregards the outcome of the secular court case ruling on the suit that Meir started in the California courts? The Get will be included as part of that bais din case. Is this correct?”
In my case with Susan I gave her a get 2/15/1993. My evidence: Elizabeth Popkin (Susan's lawyer) Letter 3/24/1993:
“My client has advised me that she received a “Get” from your client several weeks ago … They can never remarry, whether or not the separation action is determined becomes immaterial. Our focus should be on the divorce settlement…”
Why did I give Susan a Get? Susan's 10/21/2016 sworn statement:
“31. The 1989 Aliya (move to Israel) application, submitted repeatedly by Mr. Aranoff to Judge Rigler and numerous other NYC Courts, was 2.5 years old at the time Mr. Aranoff abandoned the family. Though we considered Aliya in 1989, I soon decided against it because Mr. Aranoff's behavior as a parent and spouse had become insufferable…After abandoning me, Mr. Aranoff withheld the Gett and tried to use it to pressure me into coming to Israel…After those months passed and all efforts to secure a Gett failed, and Mr. Aranoff persisted in pressuring me to move to Israel, I decided to ignore the Gett and go on with my life.”
See, Monty, Susan completely disregards the outcome of the beit din that she started early 1992 in her machinations in the NYS courts.
Lonna Kin won 100% everything in the civil court. She refuses to go to the beit din to pick up her get which Meir Kin left for her in 2008. Why not? Oh, the beit din might put back on the table certain matters… 100 rabbis signed off that Meir Kin could remarry without giving a get to Lonna Kin. Lonna Kin and her supporters ORA (and Susan?) thought that she could just stick up her middle finger to the beit din. Good luck to Lonna Kin. I wish her well along with Rabbi Mendel Epstein. I wish well to everybody. I love everybody. I’m a Cohain. I pray for health, happiness, success for everybody. Rabbi Mendel Epstein made terrible mistakes. He suffered enough.
Halachic rights of a Jewish wife according to Monty, ORA, and the "Orthodox" feminists:
ReplyDelete1. Appear before Bais Din to receive an immediate Get on demand from her husband.
2. Sue her husband in civil courts and destroy him financially.
3. Grab custody of the children in civil courts and alienate the children from their father.
4. Issue fraudulent "seruvim" against the husband.
5. Publicly protest against the husband and his family members.
6. Destroy the husband's reputation using the mass media.
Halachic rights of a Jewish husband according to Monty, ORA, and the "Orthodox" feminists:
1. Cooperate with numbers 1-6 above.
I read Asher Kaufman’s case reference “Hey Troll! He didn't need any Heter because he filed a "status only" dissolution of the marriage ( http://www.leagle.com/decision... )”
ReplyDeleteThis gives me ideas. “In his respondent's brief, Israel requests sanctions on the ground that Lonna's appeal is frivolous and has been pursued for an improper
purpose. We deny the request because it is procedurally improper.”
I have to tell the NYS Court of Appeals 2016-1135 that the issue is Susan’s going to the court to get that July 1992 Order against me, was frivolous and pursued for an improper purpose, to remove me from children, money and property. After I gave the get to Susan, I had to deal with Susan’s efforts in the NYS courts me from children, money and property.
My wife..and children in Israel can confirm that I’m a good father and spouse
Susan says the get means nothing. So what? I moved to Israel.
Please can someone clarify which court gave the custody ruling for their child? Was it the New York one or the California one?
ReplyDelete"Halachic" rights of a Jewish husband MenachemB, Meir Kin and all his sockpuppets in this thread:
ReplyDelete1) Withold a Get and use it for blackmail/extortion potentially millions of $$$ from his ex-wife and her family. Curiously, paying for a Get does not count as a "Get meusah" as this would be very inconvenient for the blackmailers.
2) Use an unlimited amount of funds drawn on from the Chariedi community to pay for expensive lawyers and endless lawsuits. For example http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/ultra-orthodox-jews-launch-million-pound-fundraising-campaign-to-fight-converts-child-custody-cases-a7190281.html
3) Issue false rumours of mental illness, intimidation, shunning, damage to property etc, for anyone who tries to fight for custody through the courts. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-75361d40-67f0-4544-bb29-c9bee5b2251f
4) The husband is allowed to choose a Bais Din that has been openly criticised by respected Israeli authorities with suspicions of corruption and can reject any request to use a different Bais Din.
5) The husband is allowed to make up a heter meah rabbonim (is lying against halacha?) and remarry an unsuspecting new wife. Halacha says these children are not mazerim, yet the wife must receive a Get else any future children will be considered mamzerim.
6) Can violate halacha by launching a fresh court case from the California courts, yet this is not considered arkaos.
Halachic rights of the Jewish woman, comply with the above.
You're asking an irrelevant question and you know it. The only thing of relevance is that Lonna through her surrogates, ORA and the Las Vegas Kollel, are trying to pressure Meir Kin into giving a Get that is NOT of his own free will, thus invalid. A Bais Din of her city, Monsey, has her Get ready for her to pick up when she complies with their adjudication (including custody) which they will not do until her surrogates cease their hypocritical harassment of Meir.
ReplyDeleteI can but I won't because all you'll do is drag it out with another dilatory question.
ReplyDelete"completely disregards the outcome of the secular court case ruling" - If you're suggesting that Meir must accept the ruling of the civil court case in CA, then Meir should have no obligation to give a Get, as per (my understanding) of that court ruling. Unless of course you're a good feminist that allows the wife to litigate to her heart's desire in civil courts, while appearing before Bais Din only to receive a Get.
ReplyDelete"the Get is not unconditional" - In the case here the wife is making a claim for a Get (and possibly other claims). The fact that Jewish husbands ALSO have a right to present their claims to Bais Din is an outrageous injustice to "Orthodox" feminists such as yourself.
ReplyDeleteIn halachic Torah Judaism, as opposed to your misandrist Open Orthodox feminist New Age religion, BOTH parties in a divorce dispute have a right to present their claims to a Bais Din. The Bais Din must then resolve all issues before the Get is issued to the wife.
aside from your slanted writing to you have anything of relevance to add to the conversation? You clearly are presenting a secular view of from the woman's side without bothering to understand either the halacha or the facts
ReplyDelete>> is lying against halacha?
ReplyDeleteApparently you don't think so because you do a lot of it
In response to Monty's nonsensical, perverse, ORA / feminist rant above:
ReplyDelete1. Requesting compensation for numerous actual damages suffered has nothing to do with alleged extortion for a Get. It is called Torah justice.
2. You have not provided the slightest proof that Mr. Kin has ever received any community funds.
3. The evidence seems to indicate that Mrs. Kin was the Plaintiff in the civil courts during the custody matters. Mr. Kin had every right to defend himself in court if he was the Defendant.
4. Mr. Kin does not live in Israel and has no obligation to comply with the highly politicized, unsubstantiated, overreaching claims of the Israeli rabbanut.
5. There is no evidence (except in your feminist imagination) that Mr. Kin or his Bais Din "made up" any heter meah rabbanim.
6. Obtaining a civil divorce document is not a halachic violation. But that type of knowledge is not included in your very limited feminist "Shulchan Aruch".
new york family court suit initiated by Lonna
ReplyDeleteMonty, whoever you are whether youre a disgruntled woman or a man, you cannot win this battle if you dont follow halacha. The fact remains that although in many cases a Man is at fault , it doesnt mean that in all cases the man is at fault. I did not make up the Torah. Shlomo Hamelech the wisest of all men has already introduced us to the concept of evil woman. Therefore such a woman can exist and has existed for centuries. This blog has already provided you with enough evidence to show that Lonna and her supporters have violated the Torah in their twisted feministic approach to receive a GET. If you cant admit to the truth after seeing the evidence but instead focus on non essential info. such as "which rabbis issued the heter mea rabbonim etc.. then youre just as evil as they are because you are condemming a man no matter what the evidence holds. Once again the tide has changed. Meir is happily remarried,Mendel epstein and his gang are in Jail. Kaminetsky was exposed and ORA and the rabbis were exposed. Your insistence in uttering plain garble talk will not produce a GET for the woman who youre trying to help. Only ACTION and not words will help. As Akiva Wasserstein stated previously, 12 years have gone by and LONNA's strategy failed and she used her last bullet. What is her next move? Is it another 12 years of the same or will she wisen up and come to Rabbi Gestetner and proclaim that shes ready to apologize and move on with her life. In the meantime Lonna and 3 daughters need shidduchim and as per her daughter on the ORA video proclaims that this saga had affected her shidduch prospects. Be careful what you say, as your support for a woman who had done wrong will only SERVE TO FALSELY STRENGTHEN HER AND PROLONG HER AGONY INSTEAD OF HELPING HER REALIZE THAT THE GAME IS OVER AND SHE NEEDS TO DO WHAT IS RIGHT IN THE EYES OF HASHEM! There are Torah repercussions to those that aid those that violate the Torah!
ReplyDeleteBy "tarrying question" you mean one that is awkward for you to answer?
ReplyDeleteThis is a factual highly relevant question that has a very short (possibly one word) answer. Are you going to enlighten us?
Can we all finally admit that this heter meah rabbonim doesn't exist?
ReplyDeleteThe reality of the situation is that Lonna is unlikely to agree to starting a completely new divorce case at Gestetner's Bais Din regardless of whether or not Meir has halachic justification. She is not going to dissolve the existing secular court rulings and leave herself wide open to losing custody and being exposed to unlimited payouts at the hands of this one Bais Din. She is not going to carry out any of these ridiculous demands without being part of a closing settlement. By all means, you can criticize her forever more on this blog but that will never change.
ReplyDeleteTachlis!
The way I see it, Meir has two options:
1) Begin some kind of mediation working with people trusted by both sides. The outcome of which will see clear requirements from both persons, which will include Meir giving the Get. It does not involve going into a new open-ended Bais Din case.
or
2) Meir resigns himself to the Get never being given. He will never receive any of the $ he demands, his new marriage will continue to be ossur (even if only derabanan), he will continue to gain widespread condemnation for holding onto a marriage that simply doesn't exist. I have no doubt we will continue to see him ranting on websites like this one, but gradually he will fade out as he becomes more of a bore telling us that he was right.
Dvorim Kedorbonos!!!
ReplyDeleteSo what? At worst he is al pi Torah a man with two wives. That is true whether the heter meah rabbonim or of a rav yochid exists or not. That does not permit the Chabads and Kollel of Las Vegas to exclude him entering their shuls while they hypocritically ignore the seruv on the man a documented seruv exists upon. Lonna Kin is still halachically married to Meir Kin and she will remain so until SHE takes the steps she has been told to by Rabbi Gestetner. You can ask all the stupid questions you want Monty. The only one with the power to change her status is Lonna Kin. So why don't you ask her why she doesn't call Attal & Schanowitz and tell them to allow her husband and wife-in-law into their shuls?
ReplyDeleteDo you even know how to use a dictionary? Your questions are just delaying and distraction tactics. You get answers to your questions and then you ask new or repeated ones. Yet you won't answer questions. So I will ask you one and if you don't answer, you prove my point.
ReplyDeleteSince the the Chabads and Kollel enforce what they describe in their words is a requirement of a proper Bais Din upon Meir Kin, why do they not obey the Psak Din of the Bais Din that included Rav Yisrael Belsky, o"h, upon Yitzchak Wyne?
The fact that you are unable to produce the heter meah rabbanim here, or even show it to the blog owner, is convincing enough that it doesn't exist.
ReplyDeleteThis contrasts with your eagerness to post Rabbi Gestetners letter and the emails from the Chabad Rabbis making you unwelcome in their Shuls.
Do tell. This is a very important point.
ReplyDeleteI sure hope that Monty is not the BETH from Europe otherwise this would prove that Monty (Beth) is deranged and that is why she lost her custody to her husband
ReplyDeleteI am now satisfied, based on the comments here, that Meir Kin does not have a heter meah rabbonim. Please can the blog owner update the original post accordingly.
ReplyDelete"making you unwelcome" Your feminist imagination is running wild again. I am not Meir Kin and I am not unwelcome in any Chabad shuls.
ReplyDeleteRe: heter meah rabbanim - your real problem is the blatant contradictions between authentic Judaism and your feminist ideology. Your ideology utterly rejects and condemns the very concept of a heter meah rabbanim, regardless of whether proof of a specific heter has been supplied.
I think it can be safely said that short-Monty is simply a dilettante.
ReplyDeleteCan Monty finally admit that his feminist ideology utterly despises the very concept of a heter meah rabbonim? (Regardless of the proof supplied of any specific heter).
ReplyDeleteRav Gestetner and Meir Kin are NOT the ones really chaining Lonna. Yourself, ORA and all the white knight male feminists who encourage Lonna to reject a halachic divorce resolution are the people who are actually chaining Lonna.
ReplyDeleteLonna Kin already contacted Rav Gestetner over a year ago saying she was ready to pick up the Get. She was instructed at that time to remove all slander against Meir first from the Internet. That was not done either because she has control of her advocates or she simply did not tell them to. Either way, her contact with Rav Gestetner indicates this is not as you put it "starting a completely new divorce case". It is the very same divorce case as the one she rejected to follow Halacha by improperly going to secular court.
ReplyDelete1) Mediation is an intrinsic part of Bais Din. To repeat, Lonna contacted Rav Gestetner and he instructed her to level the playing field by removing all the slander from the Internet. I once agreed to R. Peretz Steinberg do something similar regarding Young Israel. I returned the material to the Internet when Steinberg broke his word. So what's Lonna's excuse for not doing as much as I did?
2) Meir's case will remain on the Internet as an example of the hypocrisy and corruption of so-called Orthodox rabbis. Chabad of Summerlin does not bar people who are openly Mechalel Shabbos, nor people who disturb davening with loud talking. They completely accept Mr. Yitzchak sWyne (who had a WIDOW falsely charged with trespassing at Young Israel) as one of their peers despite the seruv upon him. They and the crooked, corrupt Kollel of Las Vegas perpetuate the affliction of a WIDOW and also cause people to be Mechalel Shabbos using an Eruv the Shulchan Aruch says is passul!!! Yet they bar Meir Kin from even entering their shuls!!
Where are the advocates for the WIDOW as the Navi Yeshayahu calls רִיבוּ אַלְמָנָה for on every Shabbos Chazon? Show me anywhere in TaNaCh an equivalent pasuk for a woman like Lonna Kin?
And you've just proved it.
ReplyDeleteHey Shorty, the demonstrators who brought children to Las Vegas to protest at the Kin wedding all knew he had a heter. They didn't claim he was marrying without a heter, they were protesting that he HAD such a heter and was using it. Just because no one sees your short monty doesn't mean it doesn't exist. And even if he didn't have a heter from 100 rabbis::
ReplyDeleteBut Mr. Fromowitz conceded that Mr. Kin had historical precedent to rely
on. After all, he said, the biblical patriarch Jacob had four wives. (NY Times 3/21/2014)
Comparatively speaking, Meir is in a much better position.
ReplyDeleteMeir has a married life. His re-marriage is legitimate both de'oraisa AND de'rabanan. He has no need to defend it from trolls, and that's what's so mind splitting for them. They just can't stand to see that Meir has been freed to carry on his life.
Contrast that with poor Lonna, who is STUCK as an eishes ish. She's getting older by the day, which can impact her chances for remarriage, should she ever decided to move ahead with her life and pick up her Get. The gray hairs in the hairbrush should serve as a daily reminder to her of the folly of having allowed herself to be a pawn in ORA's hands.
Meir Kin should thank Monty for keeping this topic alive so people know how he is being singled out by the hypocritical rabbis of Las Vegas. The same rabbis who have no compassion for the plight of a widow find it within their hearts to trample on halachos cited above.
ReplyDeleteMESSAGE TO LONNA KIN:
ReplyDeleteI DON’T KNOW YOU OR MEIR. I READ EVERYTHING ABOUT YOUR CASE AND SUPPORT YOUR PLIGHT. HOWEVER LONNA, THE TIME HAS COME FOR YOU TO OPEN YOUR EYES AND SEE THAT YOU DONT HAVE ANY HONEST FRIENDS THAT ARE HELPING YOU. ORA IS JUST USING USING YOU FOR THEIR AGENDA, AND THEY DON’T CARE IF YOU REMAIN STUCK FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE. I SAW THE VIDEO ON ORA’S WEBSITE WHERE YOUR DAUGHTERIS SAYING THAT ITS AFFECTING HER
SHIDDUCHIM PROSPECTS. PLEASE OPEN YOUR EYES FOR YOUR SAKE AND REALIZE THAT STICKING TO ORA WILL NEVER
HELP YOU SOLVE YOUR PROBLEM.ITS NOT MEIR BUT THE BAIS DIN THAT IS MAKING THESE CONDITIONS. YOU HAVE NOTHING TO GAIN BY STICKING TO THE SAME PLAN AS YOU WILL LIKELY REMAIN SINGLE. YOUR PHOTOS SHOW THAT YOU ARE A BEAUTIFUL WOMAN AND YOU CAN START LIFE ALL OVER AGAIN AND LOOK FORWARD TO YOUR GRANDCHILDREN. MEIR HAS MOVED ON WITH HIS
LIFE AND AT THIS POINT DOESN’T APPEAR THAT HE WILL CAVE INTO YOU. THEREFORE THE ONLY LOGICAL THING TO DO IS TO ABANDON THE BAD ADVICE YOU ARE GETTING AND TRY
TO SOLVE THE PROBLEM WITHOUT ORA OR OTHERS WHO ARE NOT PROMISING YOU ANY FUTURE. MAY HASHEM OPEN YOUR BEAUTIFUL EYES TO SEE PAST THE SHEKER AND DO WHAT IS IN THE BEST INTEREST OF YOU AND YOUR FAMILY.
Your caps lock button is stuck.
ReplyDeleteIt's OK, it's just Meir sock puppeting.
ReplyDeleteI thought Meir Kin doesn't care because he has his new marriage and a Shul he is setting up himself! Why are the Meir Kin supporters so keen to continue waging their publicity campaign if he has everything he wants?
ReplyDeleteI never said anything of the sort! Your diversion tactics only further highlight the fact that Meir does not actually have his heter meah rabbonim.
ReplyDeleteOnce again, I call on the blog owner to update the blog post accordingly.
Hey Shorty
ReplyDeleteI call upon the moderator to remove such unprovoked personal attacks. There should be no place for abuse on this blog.
the demonstrators who brought children to Las Vegas to protest at the Kin wedding all knew he had a heter.
Had any of the demonstrators seen the heter? Whether or not they believed it existed, doesn't negate the fact that it doesn't actually exist.
And even if he didn't have a heter from 100 rabbis...
We all know what that means!!!
But Mr. Fromowitz conceded that Mr. Kin had historical precedent to rely on. After all, he said, the biblical patriarch Jacob had four wives. (NY Times 3/21/2014)
Jacob also married two sisters! I hope I get invited to your next wedding!
Meir has clearly violated halacha by claiming a heter meah rabbanim exists, when it actually doesn't. He then further violates halacha (albeit not deoraisa) by marrying again without issuing a Get.
ReplyDeleteIt is a little hypocritical for Meir to claim the halachic high ground when he isn't so pure himself.
Yet you won't answer questions. So I will ask you one and if you don't answer, you prove my point.
ReplyDeleteHere are are some questions that you have repeatedly refused to answer:
Are you willing to share the heter meah rabbanim on a public forum such as this one? If not why not? Why have you hinted a number of times that it doesn't actually exist?
Since the Chabads and Kollel enforce what they describe in their words is a requirement of a proper Bais Din upon Meir Kin, why do they not obey the Psak Din of the Bais Din that included Rav Yisrael Belsky, o"h, upon Yitzchak Wyne?
I have no idea. I do not represent the Chabads or Kollel so cannot speak on their behalf. A blog post appeared on this forum and comments were open to ask further questions about it. I am under no obligation to answer questions on anyone else's behalf.
Your point would be stronger if you were able to reproduce the heter meah rebbanim here!
ReplyDeleteThen why is Meir trying to bring his case to this blog? He has everything he wants. Why is he wasting his time on blogs like this one?
ReplyDeleteAlternatively, if Meir gives the Get tomorrow, both he and Lonna will be unchained.
ReplyDeleteIt is always easier to blame someone else.
Mediation is an intrinsic part of Bais Din.
ReplyDeleteYou're possibly being a bit misleading here. A fair mediation would involve no psak at the end of it and be an equal platform for all involved. Each party would be able to have their own chosen representative (rather than be forced into a Bais Din not of one party's choosing). Mediation involves no prior commitments before entering, so to suggest a Bais Din won't even hear a case until there are demands met, is not anything like mediation, and raises its own concerns.
It sounds like Meir and his supporters are going with my second option which is a little disappointing for all involved.
Who are you to say it doesn't/didn't exist? You expressed disbelief to the rabbis barring him from their shuls and he proved you wrong. Meir doesn't have to jump for every little pipsqueak like you. Where does it say the heter needs to be kept after the wedding? So far Meir has told the truth. You on the other hand keep revealing your shortcomings. What's your real name?
ReplyDeleteNeither am I obligated to answer a pipsqueak like you. By your own admission now you admit you do not represent the rabbis who have violated halacha by barring Meir Kin from their shuls. So what are you doing here? I asked you that several days ago.
ReplyDeleteTo allow a man an exemption from the Cherem D'Rabbeinu Gershom may require 100 rabbis but there is no equivalent exemption from the Cherem D'Rabbeinu Gershom on barring a man from shul! So until you explain how the Chabads and Kollel of Las Vegas ca violate that Cherem D'Rabbeinu Gershom, no one except you cares whether Meir Kin produces a list of the 100 rabbis. In fact I will say to Meir (who I know reads this) tell Short-Monty here to get an answer from Schanowitz, Fromowitz and Attal how they can violate the Cherem D'Rabbeinu Gershom before you will ever show your heter to this pipsqueak.
ReplyDeleteBecause some of care about Mrs. Shalov and as long as the Meir Kin's abuse by the fakers of Las Vegas continues it calls attention to their hypocrisy and far worse actions that hurt her.
ReplyDeleteJust goes to prove how wicked Fromowitz is using that example instead of a more contemporary one like Elkana.
ReplyDeleteOn http://media.wix.com/ugd/e5498d_72fd26fb11de316bb9867ca6ea1ce00e.pdf
ReplyDeleteThe three of us sat together on 11 Tammuz 5770 (June 23rd, 2010), and we deliberated on the dispute between Mr. Israel Meir Kin and his wife, Lonna, and his repeated refusal to arrange a Get (writ of Jewish divorce) for his wife in accordance with Jewish law. Despite extraordinary attempts to appease him and to mediate between the two sides, Mr. Kin adamantly refuses to divorce his wife in accordance with Jewish law. Therefore, we determine that he is considered a “Sarvan” (recalcitrant) and does not comply with Jewish law, and the ramifications of this status are elaborated in Shulchan Aruch, Yoreh Deah siman 334. It is incumbent upon anyone who is capable, to influence him to free his wife from an agunah’s chains and comply with Jewish law. We hereby affix our signatures in New York City: (Rabbi Hershel Schachter) (Rabbi Nachum Sauer) (Rabbi Avrohom Union)
Not clear “in accordance with Jewish law.” What Jewish Law? Where? Show me. Not
שולחן ערוך יורה דעה הלכות נידוי וחרם סימן שלה
היאך נוהגין עם המנודה או המוחרם, ועל מה מנדין, ודין התרתו, ובו מ"ח סעיפים.
Of course you don't have to respond to any of my questions, but if you don't, you will arouse suspicion and possibly damage the publicity campaign for Meir. This is an open blog where cases are brought and discussed. A post was published in support of Meir Kin and it is therefore reasonable that people can ask questions in order to help them make up their minds. If you want people to support Meir, hiding evidence is not the way. Bringing all the evidence you have will help you more.
ReplyDeleteI am simply a reader who has been presented with a very one-sided blog post who is trying to get to the truth. Hopefully, my questions (and regrettably your answers) will help other readers too.
ReplyDeleteagreed
ReplyDeleteMeir did not deposit an unconditional Get. This has already been discussed at length.
ReplyDeleteThe fact that you have (possibly valid) questions against other people such as the chabad in last Vegas, doesn't diminish the fact that Meir does not have a heter meah rabbonim, and he is being accused of not being truthful with the readers here. Once Meir's honesty is brought into question, it becomes difficult to believe some of his other unverified claims. He has possibly lost his chezkas kashrus.
ReplyDeleteSadly, your excellent advice was not headed and it is now abundantly clear that no heter meah rabbonim exists. This has undermined Meir's credibility and no doubt alienated many readers from his cause.
ReplyDeleteWhere is the heter meah rabbonim? Before pointing the finger elsewhere, let's put your own house in order.
ReplyDeleteOk. Then can Mr.(?) Monty provide proof that a shul or its rabbi can violate the Cherem D'Rabbeinu Gershom to bar a man with two wives (with or without a Heter meah Rabbonim) from attending and davening with minyanim there? Because that is the real issue Mr. Wasserstein expounded upon. It should be noted that neither Schanowitz nor Attal questions the existence of the Heter because it is irrelevant. Monty claiming it is an issue is nothing more than his looking to make a mountain out of a molehill.
ReplyDeleteThere is no evidence to hide. I do not have Meir's documents nor do I need them to show that the Las Vegas rabbis are hypocrites who disregard plainly stated Halachos on a seruv while kowtowing to a gangster like Jeremy Stern who fabricates his own Torah.
ReplyDeleteWe have seen the daas Torah blog call out the fake heter issued to Tamar Friedman. Are we now going to see the daas Torah blog call out the non existent heter meah rabbonim that Meir Kin claims he has?
ReplyDeleteIsrael-Meir’s get for Lonna to pick at the rabbinic court is unconditional and kosher. Uriah’s get to Batsheva was conditional on Uriah’s death and kosher and made retroactive to the time Uriah gave her the get.
ReplyDeleteTalmud - Mas. Shabbath 56a
For R. Samuel b. Nahmani said in R. Jonathan's name: Everyone who went out in the wars of the house of David wrote a bill of divorcement for his wife, for it is said, “Take these ten cheeses to the captain of their thousand. Find out how your brothers are and bring some token [ערבתם] from them” (1 Samuel 17:18). What is meant by ערבתם? R. Joseph learned: The things which pledge man and woman [to one another]. [ Lit., him and her, sc. the marriage. I.e., take away their marriage. Cancel it by means of a divorce. The divorce was conditional, in the sense that it became retrospectively valid if the husband died. Thus, since Uriah died, she was a free woman from the time he went out, and was not married when David took her.] “Why then have you flouted the command of the Lord and done what displeases Him? You have put Uriah the Hittite to the sword; you took his wife and made her your wife and had him killed by the sword of the Ammonites” (2 Samuel 12:9). Just as thou art not [to be] punished for the sword of the Ammonites, so art thou not [to be] punished for [the death of] Uriah the Hittite. What is the reason? He was rebellious against royal authority, saying to him, and my lord Joab, and the servants of my lord, are encamped in the open field [etc]. Uriah answered David, “The Ark and Israel and Judah are located at Succoth, and my master Joab and Your Majesty’s men are camped in the open; how can I go home and eat and drink and sleep with my wife? As you live, by your very life, I will not do this!” (2 Samuel 11:11) [Thus he disobeyed David's order to go home.]
Monty you are greatly exaggerating the degree that anyone agrees with you. Produce a letter from Lonna or one of her rabbis who shares your concern and I will be glad to publish it. Your questions so far have done nothing to Meir's chezkas kashrus
ReplyDeleteno proof has been presented that there is no heter meah rabbonim
ReplyDeleteyou have produced no evidence that there is no heter meah rabbonim. in contrast with Tamar Epstein there is a huge amount of documentation
ReplyDeleteI know nothing about this case, but how in the world is someone supposed to prove that there is no heter me'ah rabbonim? Poll every single rabbi on the planet to ask if they signed one? On the contrary, if someone claims that there is one, it should not be very hard to produce it, or at least to find one of the 100 rabbis who supposedly signed it.
ReplyDeleteWhat is this nonsense "unconditional Get" ? From the Montreal Bet Din website:
ReplyDelete"An important condition of the Get, is that it must be executed with the free will of both parties. Forcing any of the parties to give or receive the Get, may affect the validity of the Get.It is with this point in mind that the Rabbinical judges will ask questions of the parties to clarify that the Get is being handed over and received by the respective parties of their own free will, without any compulsion, or forced divorce contract or agreement. The Rabbinical judges will ask the participants, whether any oaths, or promises were made to give or not to give the Get. In order to avoid the possibility of an oath having been made and the parties having forgotten that they may have made the oath, the Beth Din will annul all oaths that may have been made. Furthermore, the husband will be asked to annul any statement which may have been said which may affect the validity of the Get." (http://www.mk.ca/gittin.html)
Do you think Rav Gestetner doesn't know as much as the dayanim in Montreal of these halachos ?
Someone with a heter meah rabbonim ONLY has to produce it to the mesader kedushin of his remarriage and to NO ONE else.
ReplyDeleteIf you or anyone what wants to think he doesn't have a heter meah, or if you want to think he drinks Christian blood on Passover, that's your perogitive to believe. No needs to disabuse you of either of those presumptions.
You think she'll grow old and gray all alone rather than accept beis din and halacha over a secular court and non-Jewish laws?
ReplyDeleteIsrael-Meir’s get for Lonna to pick at the rabbinic court is unconditional and kosher.
ReplyDeleteSo Lonna can stroll into this bais din at any time and receive her Get in just a few short minutes?
Why is Lonna bringing her case to ora and the media? She has a lot of free time on her hands.
ReplyDeleteNo evidence has been produced to suggest this heter exists. By your logic you would only believe little green men don't exist on planet Mars until you see evidence to the contrary. If someone is bringing the hypothesis that the heter exists, let them bring evidence to back up this claim. Until then, it is a very fair assumption to doubt its existence.
ReplyDeletemonty says " If you want people to support Meir," you are a hippocrit as you began attacking Meirs side from the get go. So youre not impartial you are a FAKER and the Torah doesnt like 2 faced people as yourself. So DT is right to ignore you.
ReplyDeleteIs Lonna willing to accept a new beis din that both parties agree to, or each side chooses one Dayan, and they rule on the case fresh, using halacha and not non-Jewish laws?
ReplyDeleteLadies and Gentlemen: by reading the sort of comments made by the ORA troll Monty, one can understand why Lonna has no GET today. You are dealing today with corrupted, twisted idealogies that have nothing to do with Halacha but has alot to do with the idealogies of the feminist world. This is why the Chareidim at the Kosel have to deal with the Women of the Wall and this is why we see the same breakdown of Halocho in the Kaminetsky adultery saga and once again in the matter of Lonna and Meir Kin. So long as Ora and the evil rabbis along with their feminist supporters will continue to deny a man's right to choose his Bais Din, as well as not condemm the illegal and irrational use of the secular courts as outlined in Parshas Mishpotim, then we will have an impasse in resolving such cases. I believe that the "Sheiris Hapleita" (remnants of devout rabbis) need to begin constructing a master registry to keep track of potential mamzeirim because with the rampant possul gittin procured by ORA, the RCA and others along with Kaminetsky we will have alot of Mamzeirim mixing amongst the Bnei Yisrael.
ReplyDeleteRegrettably my answers will help other readers?! Because you don't like when I present the truth you regret that I give answers to reasonable questions?
ReplyDeleteMonty,
ReplyDeleteWhy do you have a hard time believing a heter meah rabbonim wasn't procured? You think Rav Gestetner would have much trouble finding 100 kollel guys with smicha (or 100 anyone with smicha) to sign a heter? There are tens and tens of thousands of Yidden with smicha. Finding 100 out of them isn't difficult.
The whole seiruv was a fake. You see Herschel Schachter lives in New York, and avrohom union and nochum sauer live in LA so they are physically in different towns? Dont you see the scam? Take a look carefully and you will also see no logo on top of the seiruv, which means this ad hoc bais din doesnt exist, but rather this was a retaliatory seiruv put out against meir days before the seiruv against gershon Bess was produced for not appearing to a Din torah which Meir had requested. see: http://rabbiniccorruptionatrcc.blogspot.com/2010/06/seiruv-issued-against-gershon-bess.html
ReplyDeletePossibly valid? My questions are certainly more valid than your nonsense because I have pointed to the same halacha Akiva Wasserstein that those shuls that have expelled Aharon Friedman and Meir Kin violate the Cherem D'Rabeinu Gershom. Your false strawman of whether Meir actually has a Heter Meah Rabbonim was not even questioned by those rabbis and is entirely irrelevant. It is far more relevant that these same rabbis are as guilty of ignoring the plight of the widow (according to the Ibn Ezra) as the perpetrator they dine with. The moser Yitz Wyne (who is a documented liar) is welcome in their shul despite the halachos of the Shulchan Aruch but in defiance of the Cherem D'Rabeinu Gershom Meir Kin is not? And you expect him to listen to these hypocrites?
ReplyDeleteI'm not Meir's spokesman, and I don't know who brought the case to this blog. For that matter, I don't know either side in this dispute.
ReplyDeletePlease reread what I wrote. I didn't say that Meir has everything he wants. All I said was, that comparatively speaking, Meir is in a much better position than Lonna.
[In a different comment on this thread, I spelled out what Meir is lacking here].
For her sake, I hope that Lonna wakes up and smells the coffee before she gets too old to be able to remarry.
You reply now to a 5 day-old post with the same refrain? You sound like Clintonites who are still demanding to see Trump's tax returns. Guess what? Just like Trump doesn't have to show his tax returns, Kin doesn't have to show you, nor Lonna, his Heter for his 2014 marriage.
ReplyDelete"you have produced no evidence that there is no heter meah rabbonim."
ReplyDeleteIs that how it goes? He has a heter until proven otherwise?
I would think he doesn't have a heter until proven otherwise (chezkas issur etc.)
It is reasonable that no rav would marry them without proof
ReplyDeleteNope
ReplyDeleteRav Moshe Feinstein signed at least one her meah that I know of. It has been used consistently from Rabbeinu Gershom's time through our times. There's no reason not to utilize them.
ReplyDeleteThe proof of the heter's existence is that choshuva rabbonim attended and participated in Meir Kin's wedding including the former Baal Koreh of Rav Avigdor Miller, zt'l. I know him personally and I know for an absolute certainty he would not have attended and participated in the chasunah if Meir Kin was not permitted to remarry.
ReplyDeleteMeir Kin is under no obligation to produce the list of 100 rabbis because of some pipsqueak who demands to see it. Those who needed to see it saw it 3 years ago. When Pesach is over do you keep your shtar for the sale of your Chametz?
It is not enough to just have smicha, they also need to be suitably qualified in this area. Read the links I posted. If there is no problem getting a heter like this, why is there such resistance to sharing it with the public?
ReplyDeleteThere are no demands on Lonna Kin. She is the one who slanted the situation by posting all sorts of defamation all over the Internet upon Meir Kin. The playing field needs to be leveled before there can be any Din Torah. That is why she must first remove everything ORA has posted and the Las Vegas rabbis have to stop defaming him. If those hypocrites would have treated him the same as they did sWyne then perhaps their banning him from their shuls would not have mattered to Rav Gestetner. But because they allow a rosho declared by Bais Din to be a moser free access to their shuls while banning Meir Kin, they have declared to the world Lonna Kin is to be treated with special consideration that the Torah does not even grant a widow. That's level?
ReplyDeleteDidn't a rav marry Tamar Friedman to her new husband? Does that make it OK?
ReplyDeletehe said he relied on the Kaminetskys for the facts. He didn't marry them simply because they asked
ReplyDeleteyour example has nothing to do with what I said. No it is not a fair assumption
ReplyDeleteThere are rabbanim who will give a heter to marry without me'ah rabanim. They are not mainstream, but they are not considered beyond the pale of Orthodoxy. So the fact that he remarried isn't proof or even circumstantial evidence of a heter meah rabanim.
ReplyDeleteSources, please. Who made up this qualifications? Please provide halachic sources for your assertion.
ReplyDeleteYair Hoffman is a high school rebbe from the Five Towns, he isn't a halachic source. He gave his opinions. None of the actual halachic sources he cited assert what you are claiming.
Maybe the Rabbi who did Meir's marriage relied on equally dubious facts?
ReplyDeleteMonty says: “So Lonna can stroll into this bais din at any time and receive her Get in just a few short minutes?”
ReplyDeleteI wrote today to the NYS Court of Appeals #2016-1135: “I submit proof that the rabbinical court of Rabbi Ralbag in NY had personam jurisdiction over both spouses, me and Susan. My proof is that Susan went to the rabbinical court in NY to receive a “Get'” from me.
Interesting, the case Israel Meir Kin v. Lonna Kin shows how indeed the wife knows full well, that when she goes to receive a “Get”from her spouse the rabbinical court has personam jurisdiction over both spouses. Lonna would rather wait and stay married to Meir Kin than go to the rabbinical court to receive an unconditional-kosher “Get” from Israel Meir that Israel Meir left for her since 2008. Why? Lonna would then lose money, custody, etc. which she won in civil courts. The Jewish law is tough on rebellious wives, which Lonna looks to be. Rabbis allowed Israel Meir to remarry, without Lonna receiving her “Get.” ORA and feminists protest that rabbinical courts always insist on personam jurisdiction over both spouses in divorce.”
The essence of this post is that corrupt and hypocritical rabbis have created a situation where Lonna Kin will continue to remain married to Meir Kin regardless whether he has another wife or not. Even before his marriage in Las Vegas he was slandered and picketed. So for anyone to claim this is about whether he has a Heter Meah Rabbonim is being disingenuous and putting the cart before the horse.
ReplyDeleteIt is also apparent that if Meir Kin were to present the Heter Meah Rabbonim (HMR) to the pipsqueak, all the twerp would do is come up with some other nonsensical contrivance so he may as well let him harp on the HMR.
So if Meir has provided an unconditional Get in his bais din, we would expect Lonna to be able to just go in and collect it. Yet you have told me this is not the case. Please explain, in what way is the Get that Meir has left with his bais din unconditional?
ReplyDeleteIn answer to your question, I believe she would rather never receive a get rather than receive a get under the circumstances described here. There are many ways she could receive her get according to halacha, but Meir is mandating it to be only his way.
ReplyDeleteWhy is Meir bringing his case to this blog? He has a lot of free time on his hands.
ReplyDelete