מרן הגר"ח קנייבסקי הורה לעסקן: "תסגיר תוקף למשטרה"
אם עד לפני שנים תוקפי ילדים היו מטופלים "בתוך הקהילה" - הרי שהציבור החרדי עובר שינוי: "מרן שר התורה הורה לי להסגיר תוקף למשטרה", מספר עסקן חרדי מניו יורק ו"מרוצה מהשינוי" (חרדים)
כך נלחמים בארצות הברית בפגיעות בילדים: בחודשים האחרונים, לאחר שורת מקרים קשים שפורסמו ב"כיכר השבת", נושא הטיפול בפגיעות חמורות בילדים עלה לדיון במגזר החרדי - הן בטיפול בנפגעים, והן בטיפול בפוגעים. אלא שבעוד בישראל תשומת הלב הציבורית בנושא החלה לתפוס תאוצה בעיקר בשנה האחרונה, בארצות הברית ארגונים חרדים מובהקים שונים כבר פועלים בגלוי במשך שנים לטיפול בנושא.
כבר לפני מספר חודשים, ארגון יהודי חרדי-מובהק בשם "Jewish Community Watch" עורר סערה לאחר שהאשים בפומבי באתר האינטרנט של הארגון את אחד ממפיקי העל במוזיקה החסידית בארצות הברית בפגיעה חמורה בנערים צעירים. מאז, ממשיך הארגון במאמצים לחשיפת אנשים נוספים בקהילות המקומיות שסרחו ופוגעים בילדים.
אבל "Jewish Community Watch" לא לבד. בשנים האחרונות הוקם בארצות הברית ארגון נוסף בשם "עמודים". הארגון שנוסד במקור על מנת לסייע לצעירים וצעירות חרדים שנקלעו לבעיות נפשיות או התמכרו לסמים קשים, הבין מהר מאוד כי מרבית הבעיות הנפשיות והממדים המבהילים של ההתמכרויות לסמים קשים בקרב בני משפחות חרדיות בארצות הברית - מקורם על פי רוב בפגיעות חמורות שעברו הצעירים והצעירות ומעולם לא טופלו.
הארגון החל לקיים מספר הרצאות, בהן משתתפים רבנים חשובים בארצות הברית לצד אנשי מקצוע חרדים, ובהן מעלים לסדר היום את נושא הפגיעות החמורות ודרכי הטיפול. השבוע, נערכה הרצאה שכזאת בלבה של העיירה לייקווד, המכונה "בני ברק של ארצות הבר
מדובר במהפכה שקטה שכובשת את ארצות הברית. אם עד לפני שנים ספורות נהגו בקהילות היהודיות לטאטא את הבעיות החמורות מתחת לשטיח, כיום, מתוך המגזר החרדי ובכפוף להוראות של גדולי ישראל בארצות הברית, פועלים הגורמים כנגד התוקפים. גם רבנים מישראל מסייעים לארגונים בייעוץ ובהתייחסות לנושאים ההלכתיים הסבוכים הנוגעים לבעיות אלו.
צבי גלוק, מנהל 'עמודים', מספר על תמיכה גורפת של רבנים בניו יורק והתייעצות אינטנסיבית שהוא מקיים מול הרבנים בארצות הברית. למרות זאת, גלוק אומר בשיחה עם 'כיכר השבת' כי "במידה ואנחנו מגלים מקרה של תקיפה חמורה אנחנו פונים לרשויות, כך מורים לנו הרבנים, אין לנו צל של ספק, אנחנו מקשיבים לרבנים ומסגירים את התוקפים למשטר
Was he talking about American law enforcement or Israeli only? Are there parameters as to what's considered knowledge versus suspicion? Did he sanction Jewish Community Watch as well?
ReplyDeleteAn unnamed 'askan' (crowned as such by kikar shabbat) quotes RCK as saying to report molesters to police. In disregard of established charedi practice, without discussion of 'raglayim', with discussion of a website.
ReplyDeleteAnd antagonistic charedi leaders are going to accept this? I highly doubt it.
(If the unnamed askan is tzvi gluck, he's what, some thirty year old son of a political 'askan' in america, where every rav does what he wants, not what an askan wants
Why should they accept it? When you have a question is a chicken leg is kosher, you ask your rabbi. When setting out to destroy someone else's life, the least you can do is seek guidance from your elders.
ReplyDeleteI'm not 100% sure, but I believe it may be just as important as a chicken leg
People will report to the police. What will they report? An incident of which is the raglayim ledovor! If the incident is unsubstantiated, the police are equipped to handle it like such. If it was only an accusation which can happen in any situation in the course of life, they will dismiss and no need to disseminate. Just like in Tel Aviv Tashbar, they went straight to the police, and now it's in the court so the children will now be safe. You cannot let all perpetrators off the hook for a possible libel. That's why there are professionals to establish the truth. In the Torah, we have Veshomoto, Vedorashto, heiteiv vehineh emes venochon hadovor... uforsu hasimlo... You just don't dismiss it for fear of false accusation. Why should this be any different?
ReplyDeleteWhy in the course of Eishes Ish esek bish aren't these machers and fixers and askanim as active as with child molestation in fear for the family's shiduchim? According to the Torah, Lo soguru mipnei ish, and let the chips fall where they may, it is called nistapcho sodehu, no matter how high the ladder it may climb all the way to the top, e.g. ch in gg. There is no nesius ponim lifnei haShem. uviarto horo mikirbecho.
Pikuach nefesh is universal, same goes for sofek Pikuach nefesh. If you have a shailo, chicken leg or chicanery you don't need permission to ask a shailo, just ask. If you see something, say something. Go straight to the horses mouth, like those that found the backpacks in the dumpster. When you need Hatzalah, don't ask a rav if you may call, just call!
ReplyDeleteNice argument, but your two examples don't affect others.
ReplyDeleteBesides, the Israeli law enforcement system permits gag orders, that sometimes stayes in effect long after the arrest takes place. American systems much different, you can literally ruin someone's life with just an arrest.
It takes a lot of chutzpah and arrogance to put up such a statement.
You don't need permission to ask a question, you shouldn't need permission before you ruin someone's life.
Im ken Torah ma tehe oleha? Was the shiduch a concern for bnos tzelafchad when vayasimu oso bemishmor? Anything in the realm of vedorashto, vechokarto, veshoalto... a concern whether the accusations will be true? You got to do what you got to do. If you see something, say something, if it turns out that the suspicion was not substantiated, do you endanger the public and look the other way? What if the lady would have not gone back to the backpack a second time, Huh? Velo motzosi lebitcho besulim is a private matter or Uforsu es hasimlo leinei ziknei hoeido called for? None of these is beknownst before due process. BTW, all this was asked for Amudim in the USA. Children's lives are at stake and you must protect them at all cost, same applies when a loose cannon roams freely and you don't know who, when and where he is going to strike next. Don't you think?
ReplyDeleteI would like to get your opinion on the kolko's saga in Lakewood. Since you are very concerned for the perpetrator's & his family's well being in case it's a false accusation, why then did they chase The Talmid Chochom out of town when his son was molested? Not only was he jeopardized when his son was hurt, but the machers, fixers, askanim *accused the father of doing such*, of which is the routine MO of these Molestor Protectors & Enablers, in each and every case by turning tables R'L'. That is a double whammy!
ReplyDelete1) Accusing someone as a *nekama* when it's an outright lie, to squelch him, while instilling fear in any future happening,
2) Chasing him out of town, while his son did not get Justice?
Halo zu Torah vezu schoro?
Why not apply your logic so much more, when it's borur kashemesh that one is being knowingly falsely accused and ruining his life, sons life, and his family's life??? May chozis dedomei simka tfei?
Thank G-d for the public Psak of RCK and for the askan of Amudim grabbing the bull by the horns and calling a spade a spade!
I would appreciate a prompt reply. ty
First of all, can you cut out on the Hebrew please? The way you spell it makes my eyes pop out of my head.
ReplyDeleteSecondly, you seem to be intentionally missing the point.
If you see something say something. What happens if you didn't actually see it, but you believe it happened? Why are you so against speaking to your rabbi? Are you afraid he'll come to a different conclusion than you?
Also, molesters don't sin twenty-four hours a day seven days a week. Your comparison to a ticking bomb is intellectually false.
ReplyDeletewhat hours of the day do they stop being of concern?
ReplyDeleteIt has been a reasonable concern up until recently that a rabbi would say to let the community take care of the problem when in fact in most cases the community's "solution" was to ship him to another community or to ignore him.
ReplyDeleteNeither do bombs go off 24/7. But you never know when it will, you therefore must always be on the alert. It is not a matter of *if*, it is a matter of *when*. Therefore, when you see something, say something.
ReplyDeleteSo if your relative faints on shabbos, and you suspect a heart attack, do you call an ambulance, or run down to the Rov to ask a Shaylo?
ReplyDeleteI assume you learned chumash and are a bar bei rav lechad yoma. Any Bar mitzva boy can translate for you if you can't make it out. Can't understand why you can't, even Popeye can. This is the first thing a BD will ask you if it's ish mipish. Chamira skante mieisurrei, and lifves are at stake, mihu lemeichesh miboie.
ReplyDeleteBTW, back to our issues in the USA, the feds do constant wiretaps listening in for chatter. You don't have to witness 9/11's after the facts, you gotta be proactive. Veim lo yagid venosso avono, and if you can tip off authorities, whereby you can save 3,000 lives is 3,000 times saving olam umloah. If you see an accident from a few blocks away, or a fire/smoke eminating from a home, not so close up in the middle of the night, would you not call 911 since people might be dying? Or you need to see it 20/20, reasoning that it might be a false alarm.
Whatever indication there is that a child's life is at stake, think of it what you would do if it's your own child. The rest is up to the authorities, they are the best equipped to know what to do with the informaton supplied to them. They are trained for that.
Im bemachteres yimotze haganav, is not the time to consult your Rabbi, by the time your call goes through, you might be dead meat. After doing your job promptly, you can call whomever your heart desires, and may come up with any conclusions in the world, I have nothing against it.
Nekot klall ze beyodcho:
if someone offers you a present, accept it.
If they want to hit you, run away.
If there is smoke call 911.
if you see/hear a ticking time bomb, call 911.
If you have a chicken shailo, e.g. a chicken without a head, infected tzomes hagidin, no heart, no liver, consult your local Rabbi who is trained for that. Veidach, zil ugmor.
BTW, the Rabbi Posek haDor R' Chayim Kanievsky has spoken!!! Umipiv onu chayim.
LOL!
ReplyDeletehas rav m. shturnbach told you a Psak? recently or long ago?
ReplyDeleteyes he told me a psak - which I reported on this blog. It was a number of years ago
ReplyDeleteIf getting an ambulance involves possibly killing someone else, I hope you ask!
ReplyDeleteIf a kid runs into the street with heavy traffic, do you have to kill the driver or you can flag him down. Do you save a child from certain death, or save a molester and have him kill more children. Calling an ambulance that involves killing someone else is the epitome of acrobatics in warped pretzel logic. Read the manual of Dr. Appelbaum, who is on first. Losing a life of here and now has precedence over someone that maybe down the line, someone erred, more so for an established molester. Bori veshema, bori odif. end of discussion.
ReplyDeleteSame goes for R' Elyashiv, Eida hachreidis BeDatz, chavrei Beis Din ...
ReplyDeleteWho has precedence Rodef or the Nirdaf? According to the Torah, you waste the Rodefand no concern for his life. He is a bar ketolo. No questions asked.
ReplyDeleteIf your parent is C'V' kidnapped and his life is in mmediate danger of his life, would you try to rescue him? Call the authorities? Or you would first run to your Rov and ask a shaylo?
ReplyDeleteMishnah mefureshes, harodef achar hazochor, no questions asked.
ReplyDeleteIf the person of interest has not been the one sought after, they should never pursue to begin with, because maybe he is not the right one?
ReplyDeleteIt's already a done deal, both in Israel and USA. They set up cameras, both hidden and unhidden kedei lehotzi miliban shel tzedokim, especially for those nambla fatherly love veda"l. That settles your false arrests issue and survival of our cheder kinderlach. velo yishoma shod shever beYisrael od. Amen veAmen!
ReplyDeleteCalling the police does not "destroy someone else's life" unless the person is guilty, in which case he needs to be stopped. On the one hand we have the pikuach nefesh of children (plural, since molesters generally do not stop at one); on the other hand we have someone's discomfort of undergoing a police investigation. In the here and now, the police are the only ones actually empowered and equipped to do a real investigation. That's the actual equation. You can take your stupid chicken leg and stick it where the sun don't shine.
ReplyDeleteEither you know nothing of molesters or you are dissembling. Either way, you have no business offering an opinion.
ReplyDeletedid he put in writing?
ReplyDeleteRofl, zudik bela"az. Sechel hayoshor!
ReplyDeleteActually, in a case of a kidnapping, you may be better of with a rav (or other responsible person) fince the first thing police do in many cases is freeze all family bank accounts to prevent a ransom payment.
ReplyDeleteHe is trying to force a round peg in a square hole, no pun intended.
ReplyDelete