In the spirit of Purim, it seems clear at this point that we have 3 Mordechais who have decided that the salavaton of the Jewish people requires comparable brave deeds. Deeds that clearly seem to be direct violations of Torah law and thus threaten their eternal Jewish souls.
R Shalom Kaminetsky who seems to be the driving force behind this "act of salvation", Rav Shmuel Kaminetksy who recognizes his son's greatness and seems willing to do anything to help a loyal support. And finally Rav Greenblatt - who admits he doesn't know whether the "facts" of this case are true - but he has loyalty to "Daas Torah" i.e., Rav Kaminetsky and he is willing to do whatever he can as a halachic technician to bring about the halachic changes that he has been told are required.
Of course, it wouldn't be Purim without Esther. Tamar of course is Esther. Who without regard to her own well being is willing to sacrifice her Olam HaBah to bring about "freedom" for the agunos of the world. She doesn't care whether she commits adultery and produces mamzerim - she wants to "save" yiddishkeit from its antiquated halachic traditions.
Now of course you are wondering who Haman is in this upside down world of Purim. The answer is obvious, especially if you have read Rav Aharon Feldman's letter. Worse than the sin of adultery is the sin of BLOGGING. In particular for claiming that certain gedolim not only are mistaken as to what they are doing but that they are deliberately doing horrible damage to the Jewish people.
These bloggers have succeeded in convincing certain gedolim that what Mordechai and Esther have done is wrong. This of course parallels the facts that many of the Sanhedrin thought that Mordechai and Esther had gone off the derech.
However soon we will find out whether Rav Dovid Feinstein agrees with the Purim Rebbes or whether he agrees with his own father. We look forward to a Purim this year which will bring true salvation to the Jewish people
I would like to bring to your attention the words of the Drashos Haran, Drush 11. He discusses the halacha that when the Bais Din Hagadol rules that chelev is permitted we are obligated to listen to them. Asks the Ran, since we assume that mitzvos have some inherent purpose, how can the Torah say that we should eat chelev in such a case? What will be with the negative results of eating the chelev?
ReplyDeleteAnswers the Ran (in one of two answers): True, there will be negative results from eating this chelev. Nevertheless, the negative consequences resultant from Klal Yisrael's not following the Bais Din Hagadol are worse.
This is the essence of Rav Feldman's message. We have no Bais Din Hagadol, we don't have to follow a specific body of rabbis like that. However, one of the great strengths of the Torah world (the one that Mr. Orlow doesn't like) is reverence that we have to gedolei Torah. And in certain cases preserving that reverence is more crucial than legitimately fighting a bogus heter of eishes ish. It is indisputable that blogs in general have undermined that reverence.
Think of the following scenario. In the year 2050 there is a Belzer Rebbe who is no one special, a rather simple Jew who is really no better than many of his chasidim but he got the job by inheritance. The kehillah is functioning as a beautiful chasidishe kehilla, no one is going off the derech because of the rebbe. But you are an employee of Belz and you have firsthand information about the injustices the Rebbe has done. You could publicize these injustices and all the young men who have been raised thinking the rebbe is some very holy man will see him for what he is: a simple balebos with the same midos ro'os as anyone else. Should you blow the whistle? Or should you first take into account how many of his followers are going to be shaken in their yidishkeit after discovering this?
Before anyone can come up with a solution, you must piggyback the Chiger on the Blind man. The blind man is not willing to make the walk, and the chiger is not willing to open his eyes and talk and this project never took off the ground, with TE caught holding the bag. She is waiting for an answer whether it is a get lechumra while she has no clue what's happening with the latest one, who goes first. Either way she is dependent on BBD where she is still considered as an EIshes ish. You cannot have the cake and eat it too.
ReplyDeleteR' Dovid gave it a shot but was not able to come up with any Heter for having two husbands at the same time. We already had a Psak from Gedoilei haPoskim that she must depart from Adam and go to a reputable BD for further action to be taken, and the TIme Out already timed out. Therefore, the ball is currently still remains in BBD. The noose is tightening by the minute and there is nowhere to hide. They must continue where they left off.
you prefer Olam HaSheker as long as it is peaceful and has no negative feelings to Olam HaEmes - sad
ReplyDeleteThere is no imperative to give respect to those who distort the Torah. The Rambam clearly disagrees with Rav Feldman - does that both you?
you prefer Olam HaSheker as long as it is peaceful and has no negative feelings to Olam HaEmes - sad
ReplyDeleteThat's not what I said. I said that sometimes the benefits of maintaining reverence for something fake outweigh the benefits of destroying it leaving people in a dangerous vacuum. I believe you agree to that as well. I can give you some examples of that, if you're interested.
There is no imperative to give respect to those who distort the Torah.
That is not the question. The bloggers are not (passively) not giving respect, they are (actively) destroying people's value systems.
"This is the essence of Rav Feldman's message. We have no Bais Din Hagadol, we don't have to follow a specific body of rabbis like that."
ReplyDeleteSo the Ran's drosho doesn't apply here since the Kams ar not BD Hagodol and they cannot matir Eishes Ish!
Besides, why then did they keep on denying meolam lo hitarti, and RNG I was mislead, I did not know, why not just make a Drashas hoKam # Drush 1, An Eishes ish is Mutar leshuk, mutar lach, mutar lach, mutar lach, Baruch matir Assurim, and wallah, She is Free! In addition, at the same time they can matir Mamzer lovo bekohol bekuf nun taamim even without kessef metaher, just in case she is alil bit preg.
Aharon haKohen was a Godol, what was the sin of the Egel hazohov?
Furthermore, Asher Nossi yechto ma tehe oleho?
Megaleh ponim baTorah shelo kehalacha me tehe oleho?
Zaken mamre ma tehe oleho?
Shbasei Zvi, how was he any different?
Veim ken Torah ma tehe oleho?
Al ken what you claim is Bopkes!
Rav Feldman never even said everything is fine and dandy, peachy keen.
Tayer kind, al tehi anav harbe, your'e not that big.
Try to eat some grapes, Yochlu anovim veyisbou.
Regarding the aforementioned fictitious scenario regarding the Belzer employee who has knowledge of of injustices the Rebbe has committed: we must keep in mind that the kehillah is functioning as a beautiful chasidishe kehilla, no one is going off the derech because of the Rebbe. The first thing I though of was the that came to mind was the verse, "The hidden things belong to the Lord, our God, but the revealed things apply to us and to our children forever: that we must fulfill all the words of this Torah." To paraphrase Rashi, “...the revealed things apply to us and to our children” informs us that the Nation is responsible for sins that are committed openly in our communities. And if we fail to punish the individuals who commit such sins, we leave the Nation open to Hashem’s punishment.’ IMHO, if the Rebbe' transgressions rose to level of sin that would open the community to G-d's wrath, then there is no choice but to expose the actions of the Rebbe. However, if the Rebbe's actions do not rise to that level, leave it be. Yidden know this Velt is a World of sheker; so what if their Rebbe is krum. What use would this information serve, other than to disturb adel, eirlich Yidden serving Hashem.
ReplyDeleteThe Minchas Pinchas 6:13, based on the mishnah in Bube Maiseh 1c, concludes that bitter sarcasm doesn't count as Purim Torah.
ReplyDeleteif people will believe you, then you are required to publicize the injustices of those who are posing as leaders of Yisroel, but are not worthy of that title. It is so written ,"The pretenders are to be exposed in order to avoid Chilul Hashem ." (Yoma 86b)
ReplyDeleteBy the way, you don't have to wait until the year 2050. This year, 2016, there is no Rebbe in the international arena that does not have Chassidim that tower over them spiritually, with the exception perhaps, the Sekullener Rebbe. There is however, a question of degree, Some Chassidishe Rebeyim are purely evil, whose only concern is their self-aggrandizement, others are less malignant and can upon occasion actually help people. The are some minor Rebbeyim who are more or less benign, but that is simply because they are not powerful enough to cause significant damage.
Zeh Haklal: The spiritual level of the Chassishe Rebbe is inversely proportionate to the size of his Chassiudus. Size matters, bigger is worse.
Also, the same is true in the Yeshivah world. The greater the size of the Yeshivah, the greater the chance that it will include a Talmid who is more learned than the Rosh Yeshivah.
It is not that I prefer the Olam HaSheker; as I tried to make clear, this is the Olam HaSheker.
ReplyDeleteWe agree that "sometimes the benefits of maintaining reverence for something fake outweigh the benefits of destroying it". And obviously there is "no imperative to give respect to those who distort the Torah." However, there can be very fine distinctions on what represents 'respect', and one has to tread lightly, with great discretion. This is the area where all Jewish media, print and virtual, magazines and blogs, can and do destroy peoples' value systems.
greatest anav, I agree that "sometimes the benefits of maintaining reverence for something fake outweigh the benefits of destroying it". And obviously there is "no imperative to give respect to those who distort the Torah." However, there can be very fine distinctions on what represents 'distortion', and one has to tread lightly, with great discretion. This is the area where all Jewish media, print and virtual, magazines and blogs, can and do destroy peoples' value systems.
ReplyDeleteOops...you've got a bit of circuitous thinking going on here:
ReplyDeleteSo now, you claim that 'sometimes' the benefits of leaving well enough alone outweigh the benefits of destroying it. The obvious question is, who decides?
I'm sure your answer is that those selfsame 'gedolim' - who aren't gedolim - have to decide, right? IOW, let's ask the violators if we need to expose them, or leave them be.
This is precisely the kind of reasoning that brought us to this point in time. How many countless children were deemed expendable and revictimized, just so that the stories of abuse they suffered wouldn't shake the faith of the oilam.
If your thinking wasn't so crumme, you would be pitiful for believing what you believe. However, you deserve no pity...just contempt.
Im horav dome lemalach H' Tzvokois...
ReplyDeleteWhen you have a blinden bak leading the shefelech, that is C.V. a punishment
Shmuel shunned Shaul...
Purim Torah works after a Purim, after a salvation. The very creative writing above is before the - na'hafochu ' , which is a very sad story
ReplyDeleteThis heter was not a 'fine distinction', it was a HUGE one.
ReplyDelete"Ashrei", fortunate is the nation whose leaders admit they acted wrong (a Rashi from last week parashah, when the nasi brings a sacrifice).
מבזה תלמיד חכם איסור חמור הוא. ואני מקלל אלו שמבזים הגאון הצדיק ר דוד פיינשטיין שליטא
ReplyDeleteI say blow the whistle. Sooner or later Belz would need a better system anyway.
ReplyDeletejohn halmark, Your venomous comment is full of broad-ranging, unsupported and disgusting generalizations. It says so much about who you are.
ReplyDeletegreatest anav, your scenario could be a useful point of discussion if it didn't point specifically to one great Rebbe Shlit"a and imply slander on his family. (BTW, I am not a Belzer chossid.) Pick a fictitious rebbe if you need to discuss a hypothetical scenario.
ReplyDelete“Of course, it wouldn't be Purim without Esther. Tamar of course is Esther. Who without regard to her own well being is willing to sacrifice her Olam HaBah to bring about "freedom" for the agunos of the world. She doesn't care whether she commits adultery and produces mamzerim - she wants to "save" yiddishkeit from its antiquated halachic traditions.”
ReplyDeleteExcellent sarcasm!
I wrote a sarcastic letter to editor printed in Jerusalem Post 3/21/2016 response to an Yael Levin’s proposed prayer for agunot:
“Yael Levine (“‘Mi She-Berakh’ prayer for agunot,” Comment & Features, March 16) wrote a prayer saying: “May He answer the women who are bound in living widowhood.”
The cries of the agunot, women whose husbands refuse to agree to a religious divorce, touch us. Widowhood is where a woman whose husband has died has not remarried. Living widowhood is where a cruel husband refuses to divorce his wife for no good reason.
The Mekilta de-Rabbi Ishmael (Lauterbach, Vol. 3, page 141) says: “You shall not ill-treat any widow or orphan” (Exodus 22:21). From this I know only about the widow and the fatherless child. How about any other person?
It says “lo te’unon” (you shall not ill-treat them). These are the words of Rabbi Ishmael.”
We pray to God for His answer, redemption and rescue of all men and women who are being mistreated, along with the living-widowed. GERALD ARANOFF Bnei Brak”
The 'heter' is a clear distortion of the Torah according to the Great Poskim of the generation. My concern is with 'distortions' that are more politically based, so to speak, standing on one foot.
ReplyDeleteI always liked the first half of the posuk
ReplyDeleteואברכה מברכיך ומ ...
I like the second half of the possuk. Especially when it is in reference to talmidei chachamim.
ReplyDeleteI specifically did not refer to the current rebbe, and instead referred to a future rebbe in the year 2050. Heaven knows who will be the rebbe then, but it's certainly not an implication to any person or family.
ReplyDeleteThank you for your ad hominum response. I appreciate your support.
ReplyDeleteI am offering a class in reading comprehension. Do you want to join?
ReplyDelete1) Certainly there are cases of people, such as Shbtai Zvi, who were frauds, who appeared to be great but were really rotten, and they were leading people in the wrong direction. Certainly such people must be exposed for what they are. There is no benefit in keeping the charade going.
2) Certainly there are times when exposing the emes can be counterproductive. If a woman is convinced that her husband is a great tzadik, and you know that he is little more than average (but not in a way that he is misleading her), and you expose him to her for what he is, you're a rasha. If a child is convinced his father is a tzadik, and you know that he is not, you don't take away this child's father figure by exposing "the truth". The same goes for a mechanech, a rav or a rebbe. So long as no one is being lad astray because of the reverence that the protege has, there is no benefit, and much kilkul, in exposing the "EMES".
3) Certainly there are cases of truly great people who made mistakes in a certain area. But other than this one or two areas, these people are leading people in the right direction, so there's much benefit in maintaining their melucha, but they have made a gross error or errors.
4) In such cases there is a great question: Do we expose their mistake, and show their followers who they "really" are? Or do we keep silent, since exposing them might leave their followers in a dangerous vacuum with lots of uncertainty? This is where Rav Feldman's statement comes in.
4) The case of the Kams is not (I repeat: not, not, not, as I acknowledged in my previous post: not) the same as the Bais Din Hagadol. The Drashos Haran was brought in only to show the concept that sometimes (not all the time, sometimes, and we need a gadol to machria when, but sometimes) the negative fallout from undermining klal yisrael's leadership is worse than the negative fallout from a particular psak.
5) Finally since I see you're doresh bishma, I wonder why you call yourself Ehud and not Dovid. Is it because of your cherev mitachas lemadov? But Dovid was lo nisa to go in his madov? What about exposing the emes and telling everyone on this blog who you are? Maybe because then you won't have so much hashpoa. So to hold on to your hashpoa you michaseh the emes? And since i see you have ruach hakodesh to know who is that great and who isn't, I will tell you that Alexander the Great wasn't that great either, but maybe you want to eat some Alexander the Grape.
There are many situations in life where one has to choose between the better of two evils. Responsible people do this all the time. Doctors constsantly have to make judgement calls: Do we administer this treatment, which might kill the patient instantly, or might heal him? Mechanchim have to make decisions: Do we expel the boy, or do we keep him? Many frum Jews turn to gedolim to be machria such questions. Some trust their own judgement. That's why Rav Feldman says that the benefits of blogging about this issue outweigh the alternative.
ReplyDeleteOf course, in retrospect, it's always convenient to blame the responsible person - who carefully weighed all the options - for the negative fallout. That was part of the calculation to begin with. We are all human, and can all make mistakes. But when you're holding before the fact, and need to judge without the benefit of hindsight, I take gedolim over bloggers. 100%.
Aside from your mini-drosha ignoring all the recent history regarding CSA in our community, you completely went off on a non-sequitur.
ReplyDeleteYour insane Belzer משל claims that injustices at the leadership level might need to be overlooked. To compare such a statement with the tough calls physicians make is hallucinatory, if not deranged.
And, overlooking rabbinical misconduct has been derided hundreds of times over many generations of our נביאים. I repeat: your thought process is completely farcrummped.
Moshe Rabenu vehaSela and Dovid haMelech bekivsas horosh tochiach - tartei mashma for starters and that was by the divine. As for krias hashem, vehoish Moshe anav meod *was* the greatest *Anav*, BTW I am offering a class on klum odom meoid al isosoi? And as for comprehension my friend, if it ain't broke don't fix it.
ReplyDeleteAnd I take bloggers over pseudo gedolim 100%!
ReplyDeleteIf the Eidensohns would have listened to you and the"anav" here, Klal Yisroel would have lost the Tamar Epstein battle long ago......
ReplyDeleteThis post is so pointless, and demeaning for absolutely no reason.
ReplyDeleteI came here for true facts of the Epstein-Friedman saga...
I got the facts, and BH the truth has come to the light of day....
But what is the point of a post like this? It brings no clarity or light to the situation. It only pokes fun and demonizes human beings who for whatever reason - that only Hashem can judge - errored gravely....
Purim is not an exuse to bring shame and make fun of other people.
And to compare anyone from 2016 to Mordechai Hatzadik, or Esther Hamalka (one of the 7 nivios) is a terrible thing on its own. No one - notneven the greatest tzadikim today - can compare to the toe nails of these tzadikim
Sweet kid, are you sure you would still like to curse Jewish people? The only person cursing is you.
ReplyDeleteYou have referred to a specific Chassidus and family. You didn't imply. You were explicit.
ReplyDeleteAn ad hominum response to an ad hominum post. Just following in your footsteps.
ReplyDeleteI am cursing those who speak ill of the tzaddikim. You obviously never read the prophets. I can find you multiple sources that such behavior is rather appropriate.
ReplyDeleteonce a person is viewed as a tzadik he has protection against any and all criticism - no matter what he does?!
ReplyDeleteSorry, LAE, how can one agree to such idiocy (covering up wrongs, no matter who did it? We need to give individuals even MORE pull?????
ReplyDeleteI actually very much liked his reply - as no response is the best response. ....
ReplyDeleteYou don't need a fictitious future scenario. There is in existence in YOUNG ISRAEL such a situation where the National Council knows they have a charlatan, excommunicated rabbi but they refuse to remove hm because it will shake up a well functioning congregation complete with an eruv built by the son of Rabbi Nota Greenblatt, who like his father was not informed of the complete situation. In this case that information affects the eruv's validity. (CUYI)
ReplyDeleteYou have no idea how you are so lacking in authority in particularly this matter. ....furthermore, you need to check yourself if YOU yourself have been been TOTALLY clean from the past from such a sin AND forever in the future! See Yevomos 105b)...
ReplyDeleteHow about the Washington DC community that discovered their esteemed and honored "rabbi" was spying on the women in the mikvah shower? It went on for NINE years before anyone noticed. Should the person who discovered the camera and the synagogue president, the only two people who knew about it at the time, have simply destroyed the evidence and warned the "rabbi" to never, ever do such a thing again? Why not? A major scandal would have been avoided and the many women he peeped at would not have been severely traumatized. Did the shul president do the wrong thing by calling the police? Hmm?
ReplyDeletea better question is - should the existence of the cameras be ignored in order to preserve the dignity of the rabbi
ReplyDeleteIt's quite possible that happened before the last person found the camera.
ReplyDelete" I said that sometimes the benefits of maintaining reverence for something fake outweigh the benefits of destroying it leaving people in a dangerous vacuum. "
ReplyDeletelike berland and chalban
Much hatzlacha in your Judaism that started with the invention of the blogosphere.
ReplyDeleteIf klal yisrael would have followed the bloggers of yore (a. k. a. the maskilim who ridiculed the rabbinic establishment in the name of "saving Klal Yisarel" and "the truth"), Klal Yisrael would have lost much more than the TE battle.....
ReplyDeleteDo I have a problem expressing myself? Or do you have a problem with reading comprehension? I'm honestly not sure. Either way, it seems you haven't understood what I said.
ReplyDelete"To compare such a statement with the tough calls physicians make is hallucinatory, if not deranged."
If you have anything of substance to say along that path I'm willing to listen.
"And, overlooking rabbinical misconduct has been derided hundreds of times over many generations of our נביאים."
I am left humbled by your seemingly outstanding mastery of the kisvei hakodesh. I can not think of more than a possible handful, while you know of hundreds.
But let's get to the bottom line: Do you believe that wherever rabbinical misconduct is uncovered, it must be publicized, no matter what the consequences?
depends on which maskilim. The present day yeshiva system in America is basically what the maskilim wanted. So in that respect the Maskilim won. Not all maskillim ridiculed the establishment - but they did raise questions.
ReplyDeleteBTW was the Rambam a makil? Baal Shem Tov? Gra? Rav Yisroel Salanter? Rav S. R. Hirsch? Malbim? The Chasam Sofer? Rav Chaim Brisker?
Dangerous vacuum? People then, need to earnestly turn to HaShem for the proper manhig!
ReplyDeleteThe problem here, though, that the "gedoylim" are the maskilim, end of story. .....
ReplyDeleteThose mentioned in the latter paragraph, we're maskilim with the letter "Sin", in the category of " Vayehi Dovid maskil vaHaShem Imo. ....." n the others were with a samach....;-)
ReplyDeleteI think it's you, and I'm pretty sure.
ReplyDeleteYou started by referring to rabbinical 'injustice'. Now, you refer to rabbinical 'misconduct'. But how about this? Rather than me answering your vague question, why don't you answer Asher Kaufman's question to you about DC? His real life example puts your entire rationale to the test.
When the "rabbi" is defiant and has no remorse for his misconduct? Absolutley YES!!
ReplyDeleteI am speaking from experience with two different situations.
1) Barry Freundel.
2) Yitzchak sWyne
In both cases people excused their "lapses". Freundel got what was coming to him. I have no doubt that eventually Mr. sWyne and his protectors, Peretz Steinberg and Pesach Lerner, will get what is coming to them too. But in the interim a widow continues to be anguished and people are being mechalel Shabbos because of Young Israel's sweeping their dirt under the rug.
Regarding your last paragraph: yes, I believe ANY rabbinical misconduct must be publicized, no matter what the consequences. ...
ReplyDeleteWrong. Judaism is Judaism, until individuals by the microphone hijack it....
ReplyDeleteI quoted that from the greatest anav. And I thought the greatest anavim were from nachal eshkol, the meraglim troben rofl. They were so humongous, vayisoihu bamot bishnoyim. A freylichen Purim.
ReplyDeleteYou obviously never read the prophets. I can find you multiple sources that such behavior is rather appropriate.
ReplyDeleteBut you have not provided any sources. You, and all your other usernames, may quote all sorts of teshuvos that are irrelevant to the topic at hand. Your cursing here is not stemming from you being subservient to Hashem and His commandments. It stems from your own personal interests. Using pesukim to somehow justify yourself is being megaleh ponim b'Torah. I guess it is a good thing that you did not try a specific "proof"..
Elisha cursed the 42 children, for embarrassing him. Calling him עלה קרח. See Talmud סוטה. How about you bring me a source that it is forbidden to curse one who makes fun of a tzaddik ? מגלה פנים ? I am not sure that you understand that term.
ReplyDeleteWho told you that I am not clean from sin. You judge mental ... ....
ReplyDeleteSo a layman can criticize and denounce any tzaddik openly. Solely, because he disagrees with his Psak. Is that what you believe. I believe that מפרסמים את החנפים, doesn't refer to תלמידי חכמים. It refers to people who are frauds. If you want to insinuate that הגר׳ דוד פיינשטיין shlit"a is a חנף, I will put you in חרם as well.
ReplyDeleteI don't appreciate the בזיון of any תלמיד חכם, let alone a tzaddik the magnitude of מורינו ורבינו הגר׳ דוד שליט״א. Some of the incindery remarks on this blog, because they thought he may rule in favor of the heter, are disgusting. Even if he would have, isn't that what a פוסק is for ? Does anyone on this blog claim to know Halacha better ? In the end he ruled against the heter. Now the רשעים are judging him for not saying this, or not doing that...
ארורים כל הרשעים ברוכים כל הצדיקים
1) Those adults (it would do you well to understand the word naar.) were kofui tov. It was not due to "embarrassment." Additionally, Elisha did nothing wrong by the miraculous provision of water in order to bring the Aseres Hashvotim back to serving Hashem...
ReplyDelete2) There was another condition, as Rashi points out: ויראם. ראה שאין בהם ולא בזרעם לחלוחית של טובה (שם) :
מגלה פנים ? I am not sure that you understand that term.
Oh, I understand it just fine. It is precisely what you do in order to justify your desires. You feel that you have the right to bend the Torah to have it agree to your desires.
And your point is ??? He cursed them, I curse you (if you speak ill of Rav Dovid)... Same Same.
ReplyDeleteאומר לרשע צדיק אתה יקבוהו עמים יזעמוהו לאומים ולמוכיחים ינעם ועליהם תבא ברכת טוב שפתים ישק משיב דברים נחוכים.
Just curious - did you ever ask a posek about cursing your fellow Jews? What does it mean to curse someone? Is it calling for special attention from G-d for that person - in which case you are judged also? Or is it invoking negative energy to produce harm in another person such as aiyen harah?
ReplyDeleteBerachos(7a): In the neighbourhood of R. Joshua b. Levi there was a Sadducee15 who used to annoy him very much with [his interpretations of] texts. One day the Rabbi took a cock, placed it between the legs of his bed and watched it. He thought: When this moment arrives I shall curse him. When the moment arrived he was dozing [On waking up]16 he said: We learn from this that it is not proper to act in such a way. It is written: And His tender mercies are over all His works.17 And it is further written: Neither is it good for the righteous to punish.18
What do you think you are accomplishing? Perhaps it would be better to pray for the person to do teshuva?
Berachos(10a):There were once some highwaymen3 in the neighbourhood of R. Meir who caused him a great deal of trouble. R. Meir accordingly prayed that they should die. His wife Beruria4 said to him: How do you make out [that such a prayer should be permitted]? Because it is written Let hatta'im cease? Is it written hot'im?5 It is written hatta'im!6 Further, look at the end of the verse: and let the wicked men be no more. Since the sins will cease, there will be no more wicked men! Rather pray for them that they should repent, and there will be no more wicked. He did pray for them, and they repented.
And your point is ???
ReplyDelete1) That you, yourself are cursed.
2) That it is forbidden for you to do so.
However, I do realize that to you everything is adjustable to fit with your desires. Therefore, forbidden just means that you will ignore and seek to reinterpret the Torah to your liking.
Someone is going to have to be מוחה for the disrespect shown to הגאון הצדיק ר׳ דוד פיינשטיין שליט״א. I don't need to be the one doing it. However, if you are going to allow it to go unchecked, I will be the one who will be מוחה. These disgusting רשעים on this blog who speak ill of this צדיק ותמים , have it coming their way. Me cursing them, won't do much, because I am no צדיק. However, I'll be damned if I will be silent and allow this בזיון of a צדיק and תלמיד חכם.
ReplyDeleteAs far as cursing רשעים, I'll take my chances. It's between that and allowing people to make fun of הגאון ר׳ דוד. I'll take that risk every single time.
Who is this strange little pisher, Mayvin Psayim? He reminds me of a character I saw on Car 54 who thought she could issue curses.
ReplyDeleteI also wondered for pshat in Elisha's act.....until I came across the Gemara (I think in Sotah) that he realized that they were earnest resha'im. ......so capability that is probably out of your scope. ....
ReplyDeleteAnd I cringe at your risk taking. Although, B"H, I haven't found any avla on Rav Dovid's part, but as I mentioned and as seemingly here too, he is a bit on the apprehensive side to take a stance when needed...something that needs to be addressed by someone. ....and some people feel that if folks like you don't want to address it, then it gotta be them...
ReplyDelete2 points :
ReplyDelete- Gemara Bava Kama: giving curses result in it reaching the curser before going to its destination
- who, here is anyways cursing anybody to begin with, save you?
For the last paragraph:
ReplyDeleteNo one is saying that the Eidensohns come near to Mordechai and Esther, however, they did take an unpopular stance, until Klal Yisroel realized that they were right (pretty much......) - starkly similar to Mordechai and Esther! .....
It's actually a passuk in mishlei. I didn't expect you to know it.
ReplyDeleteכצפור לנוד כדרור לעוף כן קללת חנם לא תבא(כו/ב) ועיין ביאור הגר״א. ומלת חנם דוקא. וקל להבין.
מכריע את רבו= מבזה את רבו.
ReplyDeleteYou cringe at my risk taking, not at the בזיון of a prominent פוסק. Perhaps the biggest פוסק alive. What foolishness ?
The biggest foolishiness is that you think you that by cursing others you are defending Rav Dovid Feinstein's kavod - when he would be the first to object to what you are doing.
ReplyDeleteWhat exactly am I doing ? Am I speaking against great Rabbis ? Or am I speaking against bloggers who attack them ? So, speaking against tzaddikim is accepted, speaking against those who speak against them is THE problem ? That's strange.
ReplyDeleteLol, what???
ReplyDeleteIt never even crossed anyone's mind to even think that the Eidensons came anywhere near to being compaired to Mordechai or Esther.....
And as per this blog entry, where the author mockingly compared Tamar Especially to Esther and Rav Kamanetzky to Mordechai, he also mocking dubed himself and all blogers as the Haman of the story....
There is so soooo many things wrong with this post, that I would feel like a fraud for not standing out and commenting....
How does anyone have the chutzpa auther such a post??
There is so soooo many things wrong with this post, that I would feel like a fraud for not standing out and commenting....
ReplyDeleteThere is no Tachlis to this post. No purpose to mock the public sin of others. Call them out on their mistake so other yidden don't faulter?? Absolutely!!!
But to mock mock them ? And to drag tzadikim such as Mordechai and Ester into it?? How dare anyone cross that line?? And ironically someone who claims they're out to bring out the emes!!! How ironic.
How does anyone have the chutzpa auther such a post??
You would do well to heed this from https://www.ou.org/torah/mitzvot/meaning-in-mitzvot/blessings_and_curses/: “Rav Chanan said, anyone who submits his fellow’s judgment [to the
ReplyDeleteHeavenly Court], he is punished first… This applies as long as he has access to earthly [human] justice.
Rebbe Yitzchak said, woe to the crier even more than to the one he cries about” (Bava Kamma 93a).
If you think this hasn't come to pass I can give you a well-known recent example. When the Baruch Lanner scandal occurred, a certain Washington DC rabbi wrote things without basis (similar to the way you are writing) about certain OU leaders. He outlined the way HE would deal with such a situation like Baruch Lanner in his shul and the congregation wrote HIS rules into their bylaws. Guess what happened and to who those rules HE came up with were applied?
Still masquerading? Purim was yesterday....
ReplyDeleteA Freilichen Shushan Purim
The comparison is woefully inadequate. To illustrate: all the 'gedolei hador' did not get to point out this now unanimously agreed travesty until it. took root with TE getting married from the "heter", the Eidensohns, on the contrary, have been pointing it out from its inception. (As opposed to the maskilim, who decried the "backwardness" of Yiddishkeit, including the chumros of aishes ish. )...
ReplyDeleteSpeaking or cursing? There is a big difference. Think about it.
ReplyDeleteLook, who said anything before the Eidensohns? Why did the choshuve rabbonim, even Rav Shlomo Miller and Rav Dovid Feinstein not say anything until they forcefully had to face it? Do you think Rav Dovid would have said anything if this ruckus started by Rav Dovid and Rav Daniel would not have been brought before him? Did you ever see him initiate such an issue on his own? Your mouth seems bigger than your head....
ReplyDeleteThen the kashya on you is even stronger: follow the advice of the posuk instead of ignoring it!
ReplyDeleteSee Bais Halevi Parshas Noach (first piece).
ReplyDeletePlease elaborate on how the present yeshiva system is what the maskilim wanted.
As to your list of gedolim, it requires a more in-depth analysis of what each one was doing, but as a whole I would say that you can put many gedolim on the list of people who 1) identified faults in the system, and 2) developed methods of constructively rectifying these faults.
But not one of them did what bloggers are doing, which is making information, with facts and names, available to all, from the elite to the simplest of Jews, that puts the rabbinic establishment in a very negative light.
The only ones who you can point to perhaps, that actively undermined the rabbinic establishment in a similar manner, are some of the early chassidic leaders, and they have been duly criticized by historians for having paved the way for maskilim to undermine the establishment.
But even those chassidim did it in a constructive manner, in the sense that they offered an alternative leadership. But bloggers are not doing that! Their criticism is much more destructive than constructive! In this sense, they are comparable to maskilim.
What exactly are you doing? You're hocking a tchynik.
ReplyDeleteSpeaking against those who uncover the problem or against those who don't (no matter how great their achievements or virtues)? And by the way, the greater the godol, the greater his responsibility...
Don't agree with your last paragraph. If the rabbinic establishment is ignoring child abuse or adultery or corruption of the halachic process - you claim that it is better to silent. That is not what the Torah says. That is not what the prophets.
ReplyDeleteyou are simply saying if the rabbinic establish coverups corruption or doesn't follow the Torah - that is proof that that is the way to hand the situation.
With all due respect to Rabbi Eidensohn, the ones who really got the ball rolling were Rav Aharon Feldman, who sent out a letter to many rabbanim decrying this travesty and asking them to do the same; and Rav Shloime Miller, who wrote a number of letters and encouraged many rabbanim to publish letters against it.
ReplyDeleteBoth of these are part of the establishment. Their methods are the traditional rabbinic methods of dealing with such a scandal: First discreetly, internally, not toppling the boat until there is no other choice. So if anything, this case is an illustration of how the rabbinic establishment itself is capable of dealing with its own scandals.
There is very big difference between mistakes and deliberate, corrupt actions. Here are two examples of the latter.
ReplyDeleteLet me make my position clear (hopefully once and for all):
ReplyDeleteI don't think there are any rules, i. e. it's better to remain silent, or that it's better to blow the whistle. It's possible that there's a scenario when it's better to speak up.
The only rule is that whatever action is taken must be constructive. Merely publicizing negative information without any responsibility for the results is rarely, if ever, more destructive than constructive.
The question is, though, who decides what is constructive?
In my opinion, which I believe to be the opinion of most shlomei emunei Yisrael, since the constructiveness of such action affects the tzibbur, it behooves us to consult and take counsel from those responsible for the tzibbur.
The rabbinic establishment is ultimately the one that much of our religious life is based on. You cannot eat kosher, keep Shabbos or Yom Tov, or educate your children without trust in the establishment. No blogger, as "courageous" and "heroic" as he may seem, is taking responsibility when the Orthodox public needs an authority figure to turn to.
One may question, how can I rely on the establishment when there was this or that breach? Gedolim have erred, Gedolim have been taken advantage of by corrupt individuals?
To this I say: If isolated breaches ruin trust, then you cannot function in life. Right now, we are all human and we need to rely on the human system we have. If someone is offering to create an alternative system run by angels that will be as a whole more effective than the current one, I'm all for it. But until then, I will stick to the most angelic leadership we have: Gedolei Yisrael.
I'm not aware of this story, so I will comment with that caveat in mind.
ReplyDeleteI think that this is a very tough question, which does not have one easy answer, and I can see different wise people analyzing such a question carefully and coming to different conclusions. There cab be a variety of ways to deal with the situation without notifying the public. And preserving the flock's trust in the rabbinic leadership would have to be a very serious consideration.
But to think that the answer is a simple slam-dunk requires a large amount of foolishness, inexperience and irresponsibility.
More important than than preserving the dignity of the rabbi, is preserving the congregation's trust in their rabbinic leadership.
ReplyDeleteSo then, who would need to treat the פוסק הדור with respect ??
ReplyDeleteNotice the word חנם..
ReplyDeletePerhaps it is not his job to read blogs. Does he have to put his nose into every question that is being adjudicated in other בתי דין ?
ReplyDeleteThinking..... Yup I am sticking with my original comments.
ReplyDeleteOnce there was a wicked man who kidnapped a neighbors child. The neighbor found out, and cursed him. All you kidnappers are judging the man for cursing. You are all a bunch of fools. Cursing- small sin, making fun of a posek- big sin. Cursing those who make fun of poskim-no sin.
ReplyDeleteThinking.....
ReplyDeleteNu, nu. What's another falsehood to you?
Please consider the fact that certain people are committing wrongs because they feel that it is actually a mitzvah. If you tell them that they are wrong, they will cling to their belief that they are being moser nefesh for a mitzvah. To them, there is nothing like a humorous mockery to get the point across.
ReplyDeleteNot exactly sure of your point, is that a 9-5 job?
ReplyDeleteYou lack authority to declare someone a tzaddik, even if your fellow who sits next to you in shul considers him infallible, doesn't look like we have that today. ....I think you are speaking against a talmid chochom that I know. His name is Rav Dovid Eidensohn. ...his ta'anos are grounded and experienced. You are not proving or illustrating any support to your claims other than bring mekoros to the general concept without showing its applicability here.....
ReplyDeleteDon't force individual personalities upon us, just because you consider them prominent. Address our issues and our experiences.
ReplyDeleteAs far as your first argument is concerned, I understand that Rav Dovid and his brother, Rav Daniel have reached out to every prominent individual, including Rav Dovid Feinstein, regarding this TE situation, since its inception and have not gotten results, as Rav Dovid Eidensohn has indicated to me (which I request here confirmation from at least one of them to the specifics of the accuracy of my statement).
ReplyDeleteAs far as the 2nd issue if he has to stick his nose into issues that are being adjudicated in other botei din, I would say that a true godol would be responsible, if he doesn't see his responsibility, perhaps it comes from lack of gadlus, better yet, Gemara Shabbos 55b: Whoever can protest on the wrongdoing on his household, is responsible for [the sins of] his household, on his city is responsible for [the sins of] his city, on all of the world is responsible for [the sins of ]the entire world....you are primarily concerned with protecting individuals rather than the Torah issues which come first and which they are primarily responsible to protect....and primarily concerned on passing judgement on others (and thereby on yourself) while ignoring the core issues. ..
Foolish. Cursing others for raising issues that if not for this blog, would be ignored, while passing din on yourself. ..
ReplyDeleteI don't think Rav Dovid Feinstein was contacted
ReplyDeleteWrong. According to your approach, it would be pretty evident that the TE (and boyfriend) saga would saunter on to be an unchallenged precedence...
ReplyDelete"greatest anav" - what is your point - that the protests that my brother and I made were meaningless because gedolim take care of these problems without any outside prompting?! What planet are you living on?
ReplyDeleteThe rabbinic response to child abuse has improved because - they would have done it without protests?
Did the American Rabbis - including Rav Kaminetsky and Moetzes ever do anything about Leib Tropper - especially when they were busy receiving money for participating in his conferences? In fact there were only the sounds of silence - they did nothing except to discourage publicity about it.
In case you are not aware - gedolim generally do not initiate solutions but react to on going scandals
Thanks, then I stand corrected in this point, but why not? Is it because it was not expected that he would take a stance?
ReplyDeleteHave you been living under a rock for the last two years? You mean to say you did not hear about Barry Freundel, who among the Modern Orthodox used to have the stature that you ascribe to "gedolim"?
ReplyDeleteFunny you should use the example of kidnapping a neighbors child. Because it is the Kaminetzskys who have repeatedly aided Tamar Epstein in kidnapping Aharon Friedman's child. And yes, a parent can be a kidnapper of their own child from the other parent.
ReplyDeleteWhen a "gadol" ceases to act like one, he is no longer a gadol. A "gadol" who undermines a Bais Din is not a gadol. It does not matter how illustrious his parentage is if he strays from the ways of his father. Reb Yaakov Kaminetzsky, zt'l, was known for his scrupulous honesty. My father tells me personal examples he saw of this. For the grandson of Reb Yaakov to act in a manner against everything Reb Yaakov stood for and to do it each time with the approval of his father has dragged his father down from the loftiness of being a "gadol". Understandably a father does not to criticize a child publicly but there are times even an adult child deserves a frask for embarrassing his grandfather's legacy.
Ironic that you are using a letter from a rabbi who was involved in the notorious Schattner kiddushay to'us p'sak in 2003...
ReplyDeleteCursing people is not for raising issues. Only for those who make fun of and embarrass הגר׳ דוד פיינשטיין. You can raise as many issues as you want. You aren't up to the level of ר דוד. End of story. Everything else is irrelevant. All your סברות aren't relevant. You aren't the פוסק . He is. I trust his judgement. Not yours. I accept his פסק. Not yours. I don't care what you think he should do, or should have done. It is not your moral compass that makes a difference to me. It is his.
ReplyDeleteTell it to R' David Feinstein. Go be מוכיח him if you think he is wrong.
ReplyDeleteהוכח לחכם ויאהבך
Talking about him, blogging about him, insulting him, is disgusting. Speaking to him, is fine. Speaking badly about him is unacceptable.
Yes but that is irrelevant to the commission of forgery by the Executive Director of a formerly Orthodox organization and perjury by the head of its Rabbinical Council.
ReplyDeleteYou are getting off topic. I was discussing speaking ill of פוסק הדור.
ReplyDeleteהגאון הצדיק ר׳ דוד פיינשטיין שליט״א
so why don't you ask him if your behavior is acceptable?
ReplyDeleteHey , when a product has a defect, there's a massive recall......there's more to it, just throwing in a thought. .....but for starters, the olam have to know what to expect from their manhigim, their guides and how they are being guided and if there is the need to find other guides....look, lo alman Yisroel. ...
ReplyDeleteLol
ReplyDeleteYou cursed. You made defending the indefensible actions of R Shalom Kaminetzky and his father your mission. You lost. You felt like a failure, so you cursed.
It would be good if you would stick on topic and take a good look in the mirror.
It's pretty evident to me that Rabbis Feldman and Miller led a very successful campaign to challenge this precedent (not precedence).
ReplyDeleteYou are totally wrong regareding child abuse. At least 20 years ago they were well aware of the harm it did - and they did nothing or rather coverups were the standard - (Rav Mattisyahu Solomon gave a public speech confirming this). Rav Kaminetsky was asked a few years ago about reporting abuse and he said that if doing so endangered the well being of a yeshiva then the abuse should not be reported. When I mentioned that to Rav Sternbuch he said that is not the halacha but it seems to be the American approach to the issue.
ReplyDeleteThe rest of your response simply inidcates you have no clue what is going on or has gone on concerning major issues.
Regarding child abuse - if today, after realizing the extent of the problem, these gedolim insist that the correct approach is to give the yeshiva's (i. e. the rabbim's) well-being precedence to that of the individual victim, then that is a legitimate opinion, provided that it was made after taking all facets of the question into consideration. This is no indication of misconduct or corruption. If their decision upsets advocates of one side of the issue - well, any decision in such a complex question is bound to upset somebody. Rav Sternbuch is not the posek acharon in these issues.
ReplyDelete"The rest of your response simply inidcates you have no clue what is going on or has gone on concerning major issues." That sounds like a very gedolim-esque type of response - don't address the details, just trust me that I know what's going on.
You are the one who used an off-topic example of kidnapping. I simply responded to YOUR post in its context. And I have not seen ill-speak of Rav Dovod Feinstein, שליט״א, here. Frustration with his timing, yes. But not the level of disgusting speech you have used against those you perceive as slighting him.
ReplyDelete4) Regarding Tropper, I'm not sure what part you would have wanted gedolim to do differently. If you are referring to his campaign for kosher geirus, I haven't seen any reason for opposition, even if it's true that he arranged for his foundation's main supporter to donate large money to yeshivos..
ReplyDeleteIf you're referring to his personal scandal, as soon as it became known his rabbinic supporters distanced themselves from him. Where is the rabbinic misconduct? Did I miss something?
The American gedolim were taking money from Tropper to give support and photo ops for his distortion of halacha. He was running after intermarried couples to convert the non-Jewish side. When I asked him the basis for doing such he replied - who says it is prohibited. The clear fact is that he was going against a solid mesora - without writing any peer judged teshuvas. The Bedatz protested. Nobody in America said anything including Rav Schacther and Rav Aharon Feldman. These two did not join the feeding frenzy of a billionaire cash - because they realized it was a treif organization - but they said nothing publicly. In short Tropper corrupted the American gedolim with ample cash - and they said nothing against him. Even with the scandal the reactions was "lets not talk about him". Rav Reuven Feinstein was Trooper's official posek. I posted a recording where he in essence says that what Tropper was doing was against the halacha i.e., one does not run after people to convert them. He never acknowledged that that is exactly what Tropper was doing.
Bottom line - when Tropper failed there were public statements against him in Israel, England and Europe - but not from America.
Your stone wall response regarding child abuse - ignores what I said. The American gedolim including Rav Shmuel Kaminetsky were not offering a halachic view but simply stating a fact. There is no halachic view that a child can be abused and the abuser need not fear being reporting because it would endanger the financial well being or reputation of the yeshiva. There is no halachic view that we tolerate child abuse to avoid embarrasing the Jewish community.
ReplyDeleteThere are ignorant views such as those of Rav Menashe Klein who seemed to be clueless that abuse serverely harms a child. But for those knew about and yet insisted not to report - they have no halachic justification. I have eye witness accounts and documents that the gedolim were fully aware that child abuse is devasting - and yet they did nothing.
I spoke with the head of Torah uMesorah after I got a hold of the protocols for dealing with child abuse and asked permission to publish them as showing that the Orthodox world did care.
But hHe didn't want to give permission because "if we publicize that we have the protocols people will think we have a child abuse problem"
Your attitude (albeit on a different scale) is like those Muslims who murdered the staff of Charlie Hebdo for insulting their "Prophet". You are following the footsteps of Bnai Yishmael not Bnai Yisrael.
ReplyDeleteactually you can look at all my posts. I haven't mentioned anything in regard to the Kaminetzky's. I don't support them, or oppose them. I don't know enough Halacha to comment on מקח טעות. I leave the halachos of ishus to those that are יודע בטיב גיטין וקידושין, like that of ר דוד פיינשטיין, or הרב גשטטנר, or a handful of others. I don't base Halacha on the blogs of a few people who are very comfortable being מבזה תלמידי חכמים. Yet they cringe when I open my mouth against them.
ReplyDeleteDon't get too carried away about my behavior. I haven't spoken against anyone in particular. I have cursed those who are מבזה תלמידי חכמים. I don't see a reason for such an uproar. It's pretty basic.
ReplyDeleteDisgusting speech ? I just said I cursed those who are מבזה תלמידי חכמים. Is that so horrible ? I never even mentioned what curse I cursed them with. Perhaps I curse them to not win the lottery today. Oh how disgusting my speech is.
ReplyDeleteStop this judging and being מבזה the Posek Hador. It's unbecoming of any frum person to be speaking against or saying anything negative about ר דוד פיינשטיין. I am standing up for his honor. Sue me!
A man and his wife fighting is like 2 dogs fighting, outsider should stay away or they’ll get bit “A passerby who gets embroiled in someone else’s quarrel Is like one who seizes a dog by its ears” (Proverbs 26:17). Esther Rabbah 4:1:
ReplyDelete“Then the king consulted the sages learned in procedure. For it was the royal practice [to turn] to all who were versed in law and precedent” (Esther 1:13). Who were these? R. Simon said: These were the tribe of Issachar, as it says, “of the Issacharites, men who knew how to interpret the signs of the times, to determine how Israel should act; their chiefs were 200, and all their kinsmen followed them” (1 Chronicles 12:33). …. It is written, “The shrewd man saw trouble and took cover; The simple kept going and paid the penalty” (Proverbs 22:3). The shrewd man saw trouble and took cover: this is the tribe of Issachar. The simple kept going and paid the penalty: these are the seven princes of Persia and Media.”
Or like all the tzaddikim who spoke badly about those who are מבזה תלמידי חכמים. Perhaps I touched a raw nerve. I guess I should just give everyone a pass, and allow בזיון תלמידי חכמים בפרהסיא.
ReplyDeleteNot!
The idea of the media has always been that "sunlight is the best disinfectant", i.e that the threat of public revelation discourages wrongdoing in the first place. The Chovos Halevovos writes that people would not keep most mitzvos if not for Boosha from other people. So publicizing wrongdoing is intrinsically constructive, as it creates boosha for doing aveyros.
ReplyDeletedon't be ridiculous - again Rav Dovid Feinstein would not approve of your cursing - so why are you doing it? It is not for him since he does not approve of such behavior
ReplyDeleteno one is cringing - you are simply making a spectacle of yourself which is not helping anyone
ReplyDeleteIt is pretty basic that no one you claim that you are defending - would agree with what you are doing
ReplyDeleteBasically, you are saying that for this, R Steinberg has ne'emonus
ReplyDeleteI have to be sovail what makes a difference to you and not to me? You declare who is a gadol on my and all of Klal Yisroel's cheshbon, you unmitigated moron?!? With the passage of generations, less gedolim are becoming universally accepted. I have no obligation to accept your gadol-landscaping, especially if I have issues with what I and others have seen and you did not! Although it is very much appreciated that corruption in Reb Dovid was not found, folks have expressed concern of the need to go out against portzei geder and if Rav Dovid won't do so, they wonder aloud 'who will?' Also, Rabbonim with authority have raised these issues before. Nobody here is mevazeh, except for one individual who seems to be doing it all....
ReplyDeleteNo, I am saying that Peretz Steinberg is a liar and a perjurer since what he wrote gave license to Young Israel to sue those who showed the seruv showing that Mr. Yitz Wyne was excommunicated. Steinberg wrote his perjury (since it was submitted as testimony to a SECULAR court) based upon the FORGERY created by Pesach Lerner.
ReplyDeleteI don't think תלמידי חכמים need you to act like a gypsy fortuneteller to curse their critics. That's why I compare you to the Muslims.
ReplyDeleteOh I would never sue you. That's the sort of thing Young Israel does when someone distributes this seruv. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/53d5a9b3d2933daa6048a504d89c4951d1dfdf8b79323775cb0ee622a97c09d1.jpg
ReplyDeleteP Steinberg has no ne'emonus. He is dishonest because he says the seruv that was distributed was false, that it was removed. But that removal from Cheshvan 5765 was rescinded a month later in Tammuz 5765. Steinberg's letter is even less meaningful than Rav Nota Greenblatt's heter to Tamar Epstein because Steinberg KNEW he based it on a FORGERY!
ReplyDeleteA Freilichen hangover from Purim....
ReplyDeleteYou have found me guilty of living under a rock. But I surmise you got my point.
ReplyDeleteI appreciate you educating me in the time-honored fundamental aspect of Judaism called "the imperative of the media". I wasn't aware this was a Torah concept.
ReplyDeleteThe One who forbade lashon hara apparently was unaware of this concept, for what greater deterrent to sinning is there than the knowledge that others will gossip about your shortcoming?
I think that by the same logic, corporal punishment should be permitted between man and his neighbor, for the fear of being beaten by any citizen post-sin would be a far more effective deterrent to sin.
Yes. You said "There can be a variety of ways to deal with the situation without notifying the public." That is well and good when those ways are applied by those in authority. Rabbi Ephraim Sturm, zt'l, told me there had been cases where unfit rabbis where removed from Young Israel discreetly. BUT in the years when Mr. Pesach Lerner the Forger has been running National Council of Young Israel he not only kept an unfit, excommunicated rabbi, he and "Rabbi" Peretz Steinberg made exraordinary to protect the rosho! So let me ask you, should THIS information be kept from the public?
ReplyDeleteYou have no proof, and do not even claim, that there was a case where there was a way to prevent child abuse without damaging something else, and gedolim knew about cthis and did nothing to prevent it . I don't think Rav Sternbuch, either, believes the American gedolim to be negligent in this. He just disagrees with their hachra'a.
ReplyDeleteSo the question here is not were the gedolim negligent. The question is do you trust them to make a hachra'a or do you think your (or someone else's) hachra'a is better than theirs.
You seem to be saying that their view is not a halachic view, and they have no justification in halacha. How do you know that?
The actions of Rav Shmuel with the seruv, when the BBD was involved, when the hazmana was from a different city, is beyond my understanding, or as you say a "bizarre spectacle". What's even more astonishing to me is, how many times in history has Rav Shmuel signed a hazmana or a seruv?
ReplyDeleteBut for me to conclude from this that Rav Shmuel thereby corrupted the halachic process, without allowing him the chance to justify himself, would make me guilty of the same injustice I'm accusing him of - denying his right to a fair hearing.
Tropper's campaign was based on a teshuva of the Achiezer 3:26, who says permits converting a non-Jewish spouse of a Jew. You seem to be saying that Tropper was "running after" mixed marriages to convert them, and that this is assur. What is your halachic basis for this? And what is your proof that gedolim knew that he was doing things that are inconsistent with halacha and still supported his organization? The official stated purpose of his organization was to oversee gerus all over the world and ensure that they are being done properly.
ReplyDeleteAh, (and to the comment right before this one) but are you not using it as a basis of proof against Wyne?
ReplyDeleteSo I am gypsy, Muslim, what else ? All because I don't approve of speaking against poskim. Makes a lot of sense.
ReplyDeleteYou are wrong but a full response later
ReplyDeleteWrong no time for full response
ReplyDeleteSomeone has to be mocheh for Reb Dovid's kovod? Someone has to be mocheh for kovod HaTorah! This public ma'aseh Zimri needs to be stopped, in the meantime it was confirmed the purpose of the meeting and you are still pontificating!
ReplyDeleteWhen was it ever normative Jewish practice to solicit non-Jewish spouses to convert to Judaism.
ReplyDeleteThe normative practice in Judaism when dealing with an intermarried Jew has been to insist the Jew divorce the non-Jew.
And what did Rav Feldman and Rav Miller do for 2 years until it happened? Perhaps, when she got married it was hard to ignore. ...
ReplyDeleteNot because you don't approve. Because you said, and I quote, "I am cursing those who speak ill of the tzaddikim."
ReplyDeleteThe Chofetz Chaim writes in klal 4 of Hilchos Loshon Hara about a very interesting type of Toelles that can allow Loshon Hara: "So that people will stay away from sinners and also maybe the sinners will repent when they hear people denigrating them". So there does seem to be a Torah concept to deter sin by telling people about sinners who haven't repented. This indeed is a great deterrent, therefore it is permitted. Regarding corporal punishment, the Talmud in Erchin says there's an obligation to rebuke a sinner "until blows". There is an argument among the Rishonim whether this means that you should strike the sinner or the sinner will strike the rebuker. The Rambam says the second approach. As a matter of fact, embarrassment is a better deterrent than corporal punishment according to Rambam who paskens that embarrassment is worse than physical pain and therefore we stone with clothes on ע”ש.
ReplyDeleteThe proof against Wyne is the Tammuz 5765 reinstatement of the seruv. There is also his radio program which on multiple occasions he proved he is an apikorus. His statements about driving to shul on Shabbos are almost exactly the same as those of Conservative Judaism. As for his claim that the Torah does NOT prohibit prostitution, listen for yourself -> http://therabbishow.com/wp-content/Rabbi-Show-Audio/Feb%2027%202011/rabbi%20pt%201%20227.mp3 <
ReplyDeletehttps://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/80f64329a4975ed0b7c4760fc0150e1b0e34d2a09ddf48f2e168b736608d74f6.jpg