If you explain what a horrible sin it is, guys won't be moitzi zera? Sorry, this is just not realistic. Anyone who was a bochur once knows this (meaning all of us). All the "fir and brimstone" talk does is give guys a sense of shame and yi'ush when they can't be koivesh their yeitzer.
I don't have the answer to this very difficult problem. But this isn't it.
For the sake of truth, this has nothing to do with actual sex education, but rather with the idea of having open discussions with bochurim regarding the sin of masturbation and how to avoid it. In this matter, theree is a basic difference of opinion between the Chasidim, who advocated solving the issue by focusing on the subject, and between the Litvishe Roshei Yeshiva, whose held that if you focus on it, that will just cause more guilt when the sin will occur, thereby feeding into a vicious cycle. Also, telling someone not to think about something will just cause them to think about it more. For example, try not to think about a giant pink elephant with wings. Their method was instead to tell bochurim not to focus on the sin, but rather on learning. If it does occur, just move on and keep learning and don't fall prey to your guilt.
But this specific reference has nothing to do with the debate as to whether matters of ishus should be posted on this website. As far as that matter is concerned, I believe that the Steipler's letter was not graphic in any way, and is no more "educating" than certain simonim in Shulchan Aruch or the like. There is a much more detailed letter of the Steipler, which is basically like a chosson shmuess in writing, but we are not discussing that letter.
Perhaps the only eitzah is to be among people who one would be ashamed of. ..and if need really be, to sleep in the Bais Medrash:-! ......if one may want to go to the extreme to eradicate it......or perhaps more practical and 'normal', to heed the call of the gedolei Yisroel and get married earlier, that seems like the ultimate solution. .....
One can't forget the Rambam that these thoughts only creep only on a "lev ponuy min hachochmoh" ,but "Taharos HaKodosh" by Rav Aharon Roth zt"l, says that one needs other 'tricks'....
As I explained, they (I am referring to the wise mashgichim) handle it by not confronting it head-on. They don't give fire and brimstone speeches about how it is the worst aveira in the world and you will burn in Gehinnom etc. If a bochur has an issue and goes to his rebbi/mashgiach about it, he will basically be told that everyone has similar struggles and he should keep learning and keep trying and move on.
I saw a copy of it. I doubt if it is available to the public. Was good to see for the purposes of shimush talmidei chachomim, but much less detailed and instructive than the standard yeshivish shmuess that the chasanim are getting these days.
Agreed. But some kids get so depressed that it affects their feelings of self worth. I have no doubt that some kids actually go off the derech or commit suicide because of this. I know one guy who became a Breslover only because they evidently take a slightly softer approach to the idea of gaining kappara for this aveira.
Sadly, divorce isn't always an option . . . Perhaps someone can begin a thoughtful posting to deal with this type of suffering which , most unfortunately, is far from uncommon.
That's interesting and insightful. What leads you to believe that people go OTD or suicidal specifically due to motzi zera and how widespread do you think it is? And how do you have this insight... or are you speculating?
imho, bad advice because the negative impact of sin is more the feeling of despair and hopelessnes, than the sin itself. The reality is that until the boy gets married or is in basic army training or advanced training which kills any yeitzer or is totally immersed in learning which is fullfilling and goes to bed exhausted - nothing will change. What boys need is to learn self compassion and learning coping stategies which include not taking the falling and failing to seriously and hope a change in status or environment which will kill the yeitzer . these boys need our compassion and support and not the feeling that they are committing the worst sin
I voted a point for this one. ..hit the nail on the head. ...
Just thought, though, that I might add "it ain't over 'til it's over" and all the bochurim gotta keep trucking and not fall in battle. ..for those who know what it means to fall. ..sefer "V'hoer Ainainu" (and others) That Sefer is lately very popular. ...lately mass distributed
I think the rebbe didn't understand this issue well enough. Mastrubation is a scurge that inflicts the Orthodox Jewish male population. Due to the unique way the Orthodox Jewish male views his sexuallty. Generally an Orthodox Jewish male doesn't chase after girls. Infact most of them start dating late. so what do they do with their sex drive until then ? Some ignore it as they are supposed to do. Others turn their sex drive on themselves and fall into the sin of mastrubation. May God help us !
I just came across this post, and it is discussing shichvat zera, and the Rebbe says it is widespread , based on those bochrim who confess to him. However, this is not a scientific study, and there may be others who do not confess , but have engaged in such behaviour. This is logical, since the stigma attached to it is so great, why should everyone be totally open about it? There are so many negative consequences, from this aveira, that is could be totally depressing for anyone to learn about these consequences, all of a sudden somebody is reading that he is worse than Hitler, whilst his secular cousins who do not learn or keep mitzvot are free to do whatever they like. So think f the psychological damage that the mysticism and fear of sin can actually do to person. And despite this, sex abuse is still a problem in orthodox and same sex environments.
Is this from the current Skulener Rebbe or from his father?
ReplyDeleteThis seems particularly focused on the issue of masturbation.
ReplyDeleteIf you explain what a horrible sin it is, guys won't be moitzi zera? Sorry, this is just not realistic. Anyone who was a bochur once knows this (meaning all of us). All the "fir and brimstone" talk does is give guys a sense of shame and yi'ush when they can't be koivesh their yeitzer.
ReplyDeleteI don't have the answer to this very difficult problem. But this isn't it.
It seems that these bachurim didn't know what they were to avoid
ReplyDeleteThere *should* be a sense of shame...
ReplyDeleteFor the sake of truth, this has nothing to do with actual sex education, but rather with the idea of having open discussions with bochurim regarding the sin of masturbation and how to avoid it. In this matter, theree is a basic difference of opinion between the Chasidim, who advocated solving the issue by focusing on the subject, and between the Litvishe Roshei Yeshiva, whose held that if you focus on it, that will just cause more guilt when the sin will occur, thereby feeding into a vicious cycle. Also, telling someone not to think about something will just cause them to think about it more. For example, try not to think about a giant pink elephant with wings. Their method was instead to tell bochurim not to focus on the sin, but rather on learning. If it does occur, just move on and keep learning and don't fall prey to your guilt.
ReplyDeleteBut this specific reference has nothing to do with the debate as to whether matters of ishus should be posted on this website. As far as that matter is concerned, I believe that the Steipler's letter was not graphic in any way, and is no more "educating" than certain simonim in Shulchan Aruch or the like. There is a much more detailed letter of the Steipler, which is basically like a chosson shmuess in writing, but we are not discussing that letter.
So how do the Litvishe yeshivos handle the issue of masturbation?
ReplyDeleteRDE: Why was the post with the letter from the yeshiva bochor removed?
ReplyDeleteWhat happened to your yeshiva bochur guest post?
ReplyDeleteWas he thrown out of yeshiva?
Perhaps the only eitzah is to be among people who one would be ashamed of. ..and if need really be, to sleep in the Bais Medrash:-! ......if one may want to go to the extreme to eradicate it......or perhaps more practical and 'normal', to heed the call of the gedolei Yisroel and get married earlier, that seems like the ultimate solution. .....
ReplyDeleteWhy was the post from the bochur taken down? Will the trouble maker please stand up?
ReplyDeleteSeriously, on what grounds?
One can't forget the Rambam that these thoughts only creep only on a "lev ponuy min hachochmoh" ,but "Taharos HaKodosh" by Rav Aharon Roth zt"l, says that one needs other 'tricks'....
ReplyDeleteAs I explained, they (I am referring to the wise mashgichim) handle it by not confronting it head-on. They don't give fire and brimstone speeches about how it is the worst aveira in the world and you will burn in Gehinnom etc. If a bochur has an issue and goes to his rebbi/mashgiach about it, he will basically be told that everyone has similar struggles and he should keep learning and keep trying and move on.
ReplyDeleteI saw a copy of it. I doubt if it is available to the public. Was good to see for the purposes of shimush talmidei chachomim, but much less detailed and instructive than the standard yeshivish shmuess that the chasanim are getting these days.
And if she is not accommodating? Then what? It's worse than being a bachur who at least has hopeful dreams for a future stage of life.
ReplyDeleteYou're probably right, no one should have a witch for a wife. ....
ReplyDeleteAgreed. But some kids get so depressed that it affects their feelings of self worth. I have no doubt that some kids actually go off the derech or commit suicide because of this. I know one guy who became a Breslover only because they evidently take a slightly softer approach to the idea of gaining kappara for this aveira.
ReplyDeleteFor a more realistic and healthy approach, in contrast to this damaging "education", please visit
ReplyDeletehttp://tallirosenbaum.com/en/node/192
Sadly, divorce isn't always an option . . . Perhaps someone can begin a thoughtful posting to deal with this type of suffering which , most unfortunately, is far from uncommon.
ReplyDeleteThat's interesting and insightful. What leads you to believe that people go OTD or suicidal specifically due to motzi zera and how widespread do you think it is? And how do you have this insight... or are you speculating?
ReplyDeleteI know of one person who is not frum today because of this. Otherwise speculating.
ReplyDeleteimho, bad advice because the negative impact of sin is more the feeling of despair and hopelessnes, than the sin itself. The reality is that until the boy gets married or is in basic army training or advanced training which kills any yeitzer or is totally immersed in learning which is fullfilling and goes to bed exhausted - nothing will change. What boys need is to learn self compassion and learning coping stategies which include not taking the falling and failing to seriously and hope a change in status or environment which will kill the yeitzer . these boys need our compassion and support and not the feeling that they are committing the worst sin
ReplyDeleteI voted a point for this one. ..hit the nail on the head. ...
ReplyDeleteJust thought, though, that I might add "it ain't over 'til it's over" and all the bochurim gotta keep trucking and not fall in battle. ..for those who know what it means to fall. ..sefer "V'hoer Ainainu" (and others)
That Sefer is lately very popular. ...lately mass distributed
You have my blessings. ....
ReplyDeleteDoes anybody know the date on this? This could be mayor Koch & the Gay Rights Bill or Bloomberg or deBlasio...
ReplyDeleteI think the rebbe didn't understand this issue well enough.
ReplyDeleteMastrubation is a scurge that inflicts the Orthodox Jewish male population.
Due to the unique way the Orthodox Jewish male views his sexuallty.
Generally an Orthodox Jewish male doesn't chase after girls.
Infact most of them start dating late.
so what do they do with their sex drive until then ?
Some ignore it as they are supposed to do.
Others turn their sex drive on themselves and fall into the sin of mastrubation.
May God help us !
I just came across this post, and it is discussing shichvat zera, and the Rebbe says it is widespread , based on those bochrim who confess to him.
ReplyDeleteHowever, this is not a scientific study, and there may be others who do not confess , but have engaged in such behaviour. This is logical, since the stigma attached to it is so great, why should everyone be totally open about it?
There are so many negative consequences, from this aveira, that is could be totally depressing for anyone to learn about these consequences, all of a sudden somebody is reading that he is worse than Hitler, whilst his secular cousins who do not learn or keep mitzvot are free to do whatever they like.
So think f the psychological damage that the mysticism and fear of sin can actually do to person. And despite this, sex abuse is still a problem in orthodox and same sex environments.