In late nineteenth century Germany, the secession controversy broke out in the Orthodox community. For the first time, Orthodox Jewry had the opportunity to secede from the larger Jewish community and maintain an independent financial and political relationship with the German government. R. Shimshon Rafael Hirsch favored secession whereas R. Yitshak Dov Bamberger opposed it. When the question reappeared in 1912, a German Jew wrote to R. Hayyim Ozer Grodzinski, the illustrious Rav of Vilna, for guidance. R Hayyim Ozer responded with a very significant letter and it is worthwhile to cite an extended passage :
In truth, the foundation of a solution regarding this important question is, in my opinion, different from all rulings about issur va-hetter or questions of agunot, whose roots are clear in shas and poskim, and the respondent must focus on clarifying the rishonim and ahroinim, decide based on the canons of legal decision making, and find a solution to the complicated question. This is not the case regarding the solution to this question. Its unique foundation is based in a comprehensive understanding and a clear outlook, in order to recognize the correct way to make a fence and stand in the breach to strengthen religion. There is no doubt in my mind that the righteous rabbis, R. S. R Hirsch and R. Y. D. Bamberger were not arguing about Jewish law. Rather, their world outlook was different, each one according to his holy way for the sake of heaven. This outlook is especially illuminated for a sage who knows the area, who lives in that location and community, and who knows the traits or the people of the community and their particulars, is attached to them in all the binds that tie, oversees their needs, he has the discerning eye to properly investigate religious questions, and he can see the impact for the next generation. Therefore, it would seem, they did not ask for a decision on this serious questions from the great lights of the exile, the genonim R. M. L. Malbim, R. Yisrael Salanter, R. Y. L. Diskin, or R. Y. E. Spektor, may their memory be for a blessing, because this decision cannot be reached through Talmudic sources or the posekim but only based on quality reasoning and the correct and illuminating outlook. Those working from a distance cannot become involved and they did not find outlook strong enough to make a determination. They relied on the rabbis who dwell in that place.
וע"ע שו”ת אחיעזר ג’ ל”ד
ReplyDelete"ומה שמציע מעכת"ה לפרסם מח"ול איסור על זה אנסה מתחלה לבא בדברים עם הרבנים הגאונים באה״ק שעליהם למחות בדבר בהיותם סמוכים למקום המעשה."
Based upon what I have just read here, as well as the letters of Rav Kalman Winter , zt"l, and Rav Hillel Klavan, there was no reason at all for Rav N. Greenblatt to pasken from 1,000 miles away on the validity of Tamar & Aharon Friedman's marriage. The fact that according to Rav Hershel Schachter that Rav Greenblatt lacked complete information and thus paskened mistakenly adds to strengthen Rav Chaim Ozer Grodzinski's viewpoint as it applies here.
ReplyDeleteA discussion should be started in the general orthodox community about in retrospect, was RSRH right in advocating separation ("austrit" in german.) In opposition to all other jewish communities in europe (except hungary, in opposition to the ktav sofer.)
ReplyDeleteHowever, the washington heights frankfurt community will oppose any such discussion, as they still consider RSRH being right, even though their own community is now a lakewood community that is partially located in washington heights. And they have the agudah behind them.
Your conclusion shows that you misunderstood the entire letter. What does a halachic decision about a marriage/gett have to do with a community issue where one needs to have a keen understanding of said community. RNG and supposed heter falls in the category of halachic - please consult numerous tshuvoh seforim where gittin questions were constantly sent to Rabbonim in other communities.
ReplyDeleteEven in questions on gittin, the ultimate psak rested on the local rav or Bais Din which posed the question to the Rabbonim in other communities. In this case had it been the Baltimore Bais Din that sent the question to Memphis and gotten the answer that Shalom Kaminetzky elicited, then the "heter" might have had validity.
ReplyDeleteBut the final decision in those tshuvot was Made locally.
ReplyDeleteAnd the aggreived party was part of that decision.
Besides, that was from an 'authoritized' authority (here, the baltimore bet din.)
It's interesting that you suggest that the Ksav Sofer was a force to be reckoned with, while Rav Bamberger also argued with RSRH. I don't typically compare gedolim but most Jews will agree that Rav Bamberger was far and away a greater posek than RSRH. Interesttingly, austrit has become a model for many Jews. It can be argued that the Satmar Rav had a similar attitude toward politics when dealing with segments of Judaism with whom he strongly disagreed.
ReplyDeleteI recognize Rav Hirsch for the brilliant thinker that he was. I see his genius in his writings. I see his devotion to yiddishkeit in his letters. However, at that time it was hard to say whether austrit was a correct policy. Political splits among Jews have always caused major strife. This is especially true when third parties were brought in to moderate or rule on said differences.
The greatest examples of this kind of strife were likely during bayis sheini. Whenever we aired our dirty laundry to foreign ruling authorities, we ended up with no clothes.
Looking back with 20/20 hindsight, I would probably have sided with Rav Bamberger's camp. However, it is clear that Orthodox Rabbis have continually sided with RSRH'S ideology in America as well. There are countless examples of splits between Orthodox and Conservative Rabbis which were based in large part on political reasoning. One such example was regarding the use of grape juice for kiddish during the prohibition. Another example, with broader implications (brace yourself, Rabbi Eidenson) was the prenump. Many have argued that the prenump suggested by the early Conservative movement would have gained steam in America among the fledgling Orthodox community but for the fact that it was proposed by the Conservative rabbis.
I honestly don't know if the American Orthodox rabbis were correct in making halachic decisions in large part due to political reasoning. This kind of politics may have been instrumental in stemming the tide of complete assimilation. However, it is clear that the arguments that existed between gedolim of the last 200 years, existed millenia before them as well.
Nice piece. But why would you mention some of these big men's names without a R. / Reb / Rabbi in front? Even R Hayyim Ozer at one point you wrote his name without the "R" in front of his name. These were some big people! Did it slip that you don't really have that much respect for them?
ReplyDeleteDespite your nasty comment it was not intentional and all you had to do was ask - not try to use it as a club. There were two missing R's in the piece. It was simply a result of using OCR to translate the image into text . Simple commonsense would have allowed you to realize that - because titles were supplied in most cases.
ReplyDeleteNo one is forcing you to read this blog
My apologies. There is a lack of blogs (and people in general) that speak the truth, plain and simple, without overcompensating their agenda. Most either follow the crowd and don't speak up, or become overzealous and sometimes even haters. I like and read your blog, because for the short time that I was reading it (about a month or so) you seem to have a nice balance and focus on the simple truth. I was therefore let down by the lack of R' in front of the names, and figured - hey, you see it was too good to to be true.
ReplyDeleteI should have emailed you privately and not posted on the forum. I should have given you the benefit of the doubt and realized that it may have been a simple error. I apologize and you should have much success in all of your genuine l'shem shamayim endeavors.
YB
While that may be true, inferring it from this letter of R' Chaim Ozer, is absurd. He clearly differentiates between issur vehetter and things of political/communal nature. The gett saga doesn't fall into the latter category so your original point was way off base.
ReplyDeleteMy apologies. There is a lack of blogs (and people too) who speak the truth, plain and simple, without overcompensating. Most either follow the crowd and do not speak up, or become overzealous and even sometimes haters.
ReplyDeleteFor the short time that I've been reading your blog (about a month), you seem to speak the truth without bending too much over. I enjoy reading it for this reason. Therefore, when I saw the lack of R in front of these big men, I started thinking, "you see, it was too good to be true".
I should have messaged you privately about this and not posted it in public. I should have given you the benefit of the doubt and realized that it may have been a simple error. Thank you for fixing it. I apologize and you should have much s success with all of your genuine l'shem shamayim endeavors.
I wrote an apology post. I didn't realize that it takes time for approval, so when I saw it wasn't there, I thought that I didn't post it correctly and I wrote a second one. You can post which ever one you want, they are similar.
ReplyDeleteThank you,
YB
you seem to speak the truth without bending too much over. I enjoy
ReplyDeletereading it for this reason. Therefore, when I saw the lack of R in front
of these big men, I started thinking, "you see, it was too good to be
true
Huh? Who did you imagine RDE was "bending over" for by omitting the "R"? In other words, who is it that you think would want the "R" left out?
Who is the Rav Chaim Ozer of today, I ask, WHO?
ReplyDeleteTo be candid, i did not read this post, but just for some l'chaim l'kovod Purim, This reminds me of a story of Reb Chaim Ozer zt"l and the ONLY time I would consider being mattir aishes ish, to boot:
ReplyDeleteA wagon driver came over to Rav Chaim Ozer while he was in middle of giving a shiur and asked, "Rebbe, can I take an aishes ish? ", to which Rav Chaim Ozer smiled and said, "yes, you may". The wagon driver left but also left over a tumult and Rav Chaim Ozer could not continue the shiur. He explained that he was clear that the intent of the driver's question was if he can drive the aishes ish to where he had to go........a zein pike'ach!
Ephraim, Can you please elaborate on the side point regarding the disagreements on the use of grape juice during prohibition for the various sacramental purposes. I'm aware that poskim today permit the use use of GJ even lechatchilah, (for kiddush at least), but do you really believe that back in the 1920's it was all about politics?? Didn't those Rabbis also author Torah articles explaining their reasoning?
ReplyDeleteWhatever information you can provide would be sincerely appreciated.
I read a kuntris on it a while back. I will try to trace back the publication. Yes, the Rabbis backed up their pisokim with halacha. However, the practically unanimous consensus was a more kuladik aporoach once the machlokes was no longer applicable.
ReplyDelete