NY Daily News A Brooklyn rabbi charged with sexually abusing four teenage boys in a
hotel was sentenced to just 60 days in jail and six years of probation.
Yoel Malik, 33, a member of the Satmar Hasidic sect, was given the
generous plea deal after the victims were extremely reluctant to testify
publicly, according to a law enforcement source familiar with the case.
In 2013, Malik was charged with 28 criminal counts and shamelessly
blamed his underage victims for trying to seduce him, police sources
said. [...]
How could this happen? In this day and age?
ReplyDeleteIf this so-called "rabbi" is guilty as charged of engaging in sexual acts with teenage boys, shouldn't the religious Jewish community consider him as a homosexual criminal?
ReplyDeleteTeenage boys are considered grown men in Judaism. In this case, classifying a perp as only a "child molestor" or "sexual abuser" seems to be a politically correct cover up of homosexual crimes committed against presumably heterosexual men. Should the religious Jewish community allow ourselves to be bamboozled by leftist doublespeak?
wow. That is what you take about from this? That the terminology is wrong? Who cares if he is gay or not? And if they would have been girls it would have been better?
ReplyDeletePerhaps concentrate on the fact that yet again askanim who think they are religious have let a predator out on the streets because in their blighted minds they think that if a non-jewish court is involved then, whatever the charges, the jew being prosecuted must be defended.
The other option is that this kind of offence is so regular they don't even consider it bad any more and want to defend the perpetrator because they think he deserves it.
The satmar community doesn't trust the justice system. It is hard to blame them, after the 106 year sentence in the weberman case. I don't know he details of this case. Molestation is a problem in the Chassidic community. Public mikvahs should be shut down for children under the age of 18. It should be illegal.
ReplyDeleteIf there's no one to testify, the case would have fallen apart at trial. I'm surprised he got any jail time at all
ReplyDeleteWhy is it always askanim when someone gets a lesser sentence? Perhaps that was the maximum they could charge him with what evidence was presented. Anything under 18 is heavy duty in the States. As said above, I am surprised they gave him any time since none of the victims agreed to testify.
ReplyDeleteThe same way the Heterim do. There is a big lobby of machers behind this, that's why the other story on E 7th goes by with no one pressing charges. They threaten the victim and their families with ostracism and all kinds of redifos not to press charges. And they back it up with false allegations as if Messira kivyachol R'L'. It starts with the block votes that buy of the law of the people in obstructing justice. This has been another cry of the true GEDOILEI haDOR and Poskim. The next thing that happens that these victims commit suicide and then they are being maspid Yadeinu lo shofcho es hadam hazeh. That is the epitome of GONEV DAAS ELYON.
ReplyDeleteIf you dare ask why they do it. It's simple, they have immediate family members involved in inflicting such and at times even they themselves are the perpetrators as been noted by the yodei dovor and has happened of the likes in the UK and Aussie. So now you know.
When there is no one to testify, is not the same as when there are, except that they have been intimidated into stom piyot. Let the law give the victims protection to testify and then we see whether there is anyone willing to come forth. Everything is on candid camera, the victim is here, the witnesses are here, so why is there no one to testify. Because the first thing the machers do is to threaten the girl to be thrown out of school, make sure she could not do a shidduch when time comes, yored lechayov of the parents and whoever else is willing to testify. Why else have they been fighting tooth and nail of who has jurisdiction of the Security Cameras that has been set up for this very same reason. If not for this shameful bloody policy, little kletsky nebach would still be going to cheder to this very day. The blood of all the kletsky's are crying to us, why have you not spoken out in time, I could have been well and alive had they put away those mashchisim when they served notice on society the first time around, and put away for good!
ReplyDeleteUnless and until all the people that see this injustice done in broad daylight gather and declare, Enough is enough, and protest with the same fervor like the ORA and their cohorts, not donate any funds to these institutions and those shofar blowers crying foul of so called *Messira*, your children will remain to be hefker. They support such groups as R' Dovid mentioned and sell out our religion for MONEY, sell out our children to these perpetrators lurking in the dark and broad daylight, and when the victims commit suicide they blame the victim has been a drug user OTD and on and on.
NO, NOT AT ALL!!!! It is *YOU* outcasts that prevent our children to testify, hush hush it, sweep it under the rug that cause these suicides R'L'. Have you no shame??? Time to wake up, and bring all those to Justice like you have done with the Epsteins SHARYA. PLEASE RABBONIM FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD, we beg you, we plead with you bechol loshon shel bakosho, Oh' please step in and help us NOW, ki bou mayim ad nofesh! Just the other week to neshomos committed suicide, and if you don't help us laes kazos mi yodea we C.V. can sink ad hatehom and never recover rachmone lesheizve. Look to where we have already come to, False Heteirim, matir eishes ish lashuk, Gitei meusse, mamzerim manufacturers, matirei domon shel Yisrael bludgeoning Fathers in front of their children, aiding and abetting kidnappers, mind you all with the gushpanka of so called biggest kivyachol Gedolim of our times R'L'. And when caught red handed they run to R' this and R' that, peading please save us face and don't know how to get out of it. Well, how about fessing up and disclose how much $halmoinim they paid for you to do it. It better stop now or never!
Please learn to create paragraphs. It's really annoying to read a good rant otherwise
ReplyDeleteIt is hard to blame them, after the 106 year sentence in the weberman case.
ReplyDeleteIf you don't know the details fo the case, you have no business offering opinions on the sentence.
Are you truly annoyed at the paragraph, or at the substance? Huh?
ReplyDeleteIn that case, how come they take their Din Torahs to Court.
ReplyDeleteTheargumdnt was that even murderers don't get 160 years. (Not agreeing or disagreeing, but they have an argument.)
ReplyDeleteCan it be both?
ReplyDeleteThe sentence was totally unjust. Who told you that I don't know the details ? Why would I assume you know any details ?
ReplyDeleteDo you blame people for not wanting to testify, when the courts mete out extensive sentences ? 106 years for rape. This will not get people to testify. Why they go to court for civil matters, real estate, is perhaps because it's hard to do this in Beis din, and no one is dying or getting locked up. Perhaps both sides wanted court. Not sure
ReplyDeleteIt sure is, and the handwriting is on the wall!
ReplyDeleteIf the victims don't want to testify, how come they have to threaten the victims and family not to testify. It is a known fact widely known that they did and they do as an MO calling it Messira. And perhaps who knows better what's goes on inside BD and neither wants to risk judgment there, but that's a whole different issue.
ReplyDeleteAnd how did it get to court to begin with? The other girl that WAS willing to testify said, she is doing it to protect future children from happening to them what had happened to her. They put her through the wringer for it, ostracised her and her whole family, took and robbed away their livelihoods. Perhaps not everybody is that strong, no surprise here. What has been done to these children is not a life sentence, but have been robbed of their lives. tse uvdok vetimtsa.
ReplyDeleteDo you think the verdict against weberman was fair ? I don't. Do you think any Chassidic guy, would want to go to court to defend himself against sexual abuse charges after the horrible injustice carried out in the weberman case ? Do you think anyone wants to go in front of a jury in Iowa or South Dakota after the Rubashkin verdict ? How can you blame them for not wanting to go to court ? That was my point.
ReplyDeleteI must be obtuse, I don't understand your riddles
ReplyDeleteI, for one, happen to thoroughly enjoy ehud's posts. Really unique and on the mark. Chalk up the lack of paragraphs to poetic license. Not to insult, but maybe his stuff is just over your head.
ReplyDeleteThe point is, that there is a Jury System where both parties get to pick and choose from a wide pool of applicants called for Jury duty. This is yet the best system Democracy came up with, and until we can come up with something better, this will have to do. The verdict is only *symbolic*, because he obviously doesn't have those years even in two lifetimes, nor any of those that get ten lifetimes. The Jury took into consideration all those children that have been systematically thrown under the bus and never had a fair chance having their day in court, and nebach so many of those are not with us anymore because of their broken hearts that led to ... R'L'. It pains my heart to no end for all those tayere neshomos young and frail with shayne gekreizlte peyos etc. and I am writing this with tears running down my face, and I feel their parents plight and pain. These are all *OUR* children and why treat them as if they are expendable al lo ovel bekapom? Don't you feel they have a right to life as any other Yiddishe children without being violated? This is no joke, no rant, nor poetry, no riddles, nor flowery remarks, these are RACHMONO LESHEIZVE DVORIM KEHAVIYOSON. It is the *sad* *sad* state of affairs we have sank to becherposeinu. And if you don't speak up today, who knows who's child will be victimized tomorrow. Like our toirosenu haKdosha says, lemaan yishmeu veyirou, so has the Jury done and so have they have spoken.
ReplyDeleteAnd for you my friend, that has difficulties in understanding my compositions, I catered it all in one paragraph.
Why should he be punished for all the other people thrown under the bus that wasn't of his doing?
ReplyDeleteThe criminal justice system is broken. It is beyond me how anyone can question me.
ReplyDeleteDavid, once again you seem to have a reading comprehension problem. My comments were not solely focused on terminology.
ReplyDeleteLet's try again - "shouldn't the religious Jewish community consider him as a homosexual criminal?"
Ish bechetoi yomus. If you read my response you will see that it is only symbolic, the rest they gave he got for what he actually committed. What is your take for "Lemaan yishmeu veyirou"? Aren't those for sins that were even yet not committed.
ReplyDeleteThere are many other examples that you can ask the same: Tzadik nitfas beovon haDor, retribution for shileshim veribeim, Oy lerosho oy lishcheno, ovos yochlu boser veshinei bonim tikheno, what about a Sorrer umoreh that has yet not even committed the aveira. There is a factor of kol yisrael areivim ze loze. And if such are not put away, they will keep on repeating over again. These are only intro's.
1) Here is some more food for thought and to entertain if you will: If you think about "Vehoelokim ino leyodo", this punishment is for previous chatoim that he has not been caught for. Taking several boys to a hotel as a group definitely does not sound that this is his first time, and has gotten away with it. These are repeat offenders that can never be stopped. Once released, they will do it again and again. Sometimes they pay off the Parents to keep quiet or else. The same applies for all others.
ReplyDeleteI don't disagree that there have been a lot of people who have gone off the derech because of molestation and abuse. It is a mental illness issue, and in many instances a criminal issue. Both which need our full attention. I think an ounce of prevention is needed. Video cameras available online for anyone to log in and view, in all synagogues and schools.
ReplyDeleteI do think taking one person and making an example of him, hanging him on a street lamp, is good for everyone. Everyone except weberman, and perhaps his family. That is why we want justice meted out fairly. You can't take a community problem and blame it on one person. That is scapegoating. It is wrong !!
Who told you that I don't know the details ?
ReplyDeleteYou told me you don't know the details.
You wrote: "The satmar community doesn't trust the justice system. It is hard to
blame them, after the 106 year sentence in the weberman case. I don't
know he details of this case."
Anyhow, I don't consider the sentence unjust. Men who rape young girls in the guise of helping them should be locked up. I find it disgusting that Satmar tries to protect such people.
Who says murderers don't get 160-year-sentences?
ReplyDeletehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_longest_prison_sentences
Dear Nat, Thank you for your kind words!
ReplyDeleteA first-time offender convicted of even molestation of one person, not multiples, does not justify a 100+ year sentence. Nor is that the norm in sentencing. Far from it. So it is justified that the community is suspicious that the non-Jewish system disfavors them in a very biased manner.
ReplyDeletePerhaps you need to look into the verdict and maybe get a better understanding why they unanimously voted as they did. There is nothing ever that prevents them from repeating what they do short of removing them from society. So this is not all just punishment, it is also the ounce of prevention if you will. The same applies all across the board, and there are machers and cover uppers all over and all the way to the top having them roam freely even after a lifetime career of inflicting the young, unsuspected, and frail mikol habo leyodom. Now, *that* prevents a whole lot of victims that would end up dead C'V' if not locked up for life. How is this different than one carrying contagious diseases e.g. ebola putting anyone at risk for a sure death. When they give a ridiculous number of years that the person doesn't even have those amount of years left to live, is firstly to serve notice on the people responsible for providing immunity for these criminals even after they have been informed so as to take matters of life and death seriously. Secondly, to secure that the perpetrator doesn't have a chance ever to get out early for whatever the system might provide. Therefore, after a certain point, any number of years, technically doesn't make it any less or more of a harsh punishment. It is all only virtual and perhaps a scale that reflects the magnitude of the crime.
ReplyDeleteI just hope you aren't my judge in Beis din shel maalah.
ReplyDeleteFirstly, unanimous was the verdict. The sentence is by the judge. Not the jury. I don't know that you'd get any unanimous jury for 106 years for rape. over-sentencing, and under-sentencing are both equally wrong. As was done in the Rubashkin case. You can't convince me that 106 years is necessary for a man who is already in his fifties. Do you think when he reaches 85 he will still be a threat ?
The sentecing was based on each Felony count of which the Jury found him guilty multiplied by the years that apply. When all added up, that's to what it amounted to. In any case, it was already reduced to half. The system doesn't provide actuarial statistics of the criminals projected life span. When it can be proven that he is of no more a threat to society, he might be eligible for parole, I think. What is your thought of "Vehoelokim ino leyodo"? Is the one on the top of the ladder still a threat?
ReplyDeleteNo need to, cameras would do well centrally monitored by the police!!!!
ReplyDeleteYou have a valid point!
ReplyDelete10-15 yrs is more than a deterrent as well as a punishment.
ReplyDeleteI believe the harsh sentence was more of a message to the community to stop playing bully.
Taking one person and make em a scapegoat is not justified.
ReplyDeleteHolding the Mechanchim and Rabbonim responsible for letting it happen will do better.
The machers and cover uppers only do that because they obviously have their hand in the pie and are also guilty for letting it happen in the first place.
ReplyDeleteNo problem, I'm just obtuse.
ReplyDeleteSigned,
YitzchokM
Proud member of the "it's over your head" club
Even Madoff? How many others can you point to who got anywhere near that kind of sentence?
ReplyDeleteNo, I don't think his sentence is fitting either. At the same time, at least his claim to fame is being the biggest orchestrator of a financial crime in US history.
Besides the fact that there was no evidence of rape, do you believe that all rapists should receive 106 years in jail, or only the Satmer ones?
ReplyDelete2) There were at least another dozen girls in que willing to testify that the same thing happened to them. If *he* was 'memune' to bring them back to the Derech and made the parents pay a hefty fee for keeping her in School, and this is what he perpetrated instead, in your opinion, shouldn't the punishment befit the crime by taking into *consideration* the stature of the perpetrator himself being the rosh havaad? If you do the math and divide the years by 13, it would amount to even less than what Mr. M. A. here has recommended. This other guy that received a total of sitxy days, considering all the lives Beyodin ubelo yodin he has actually extinguished so far in his lifetime that became chas vesholom a bar ketolo, do you think it befits as sufficient punishment and as a deterrent? And these things happen and will C'V' happen again and again only and because in the eyes of the community leaders, the lives of our children are expendable R'L'. The same goes for E.7th and all the other precious children we have lost out nebach. This threat is like a Holocaust to our children, can we just sit IDLY by? Or can we close an eye and make believe as if it never happened? Haloy ochinu va'achoseinu domeinu ubsoreinu heim? Veonu yoshvim al yodeinu beozlat yad? Uma noshiv leovinu shebashomayim leyom haDin? Hayeled einenu, veonu ono onu bo?!
ReplyDeleteI have no opinion on the precise length of punishment for "all rapists." It depends on the number of victims, the number of crimes, and other factors as well. I leave it for the prosecutors, judges and juries to decide. Of course I do not think rapists from Satmar should be treated differently than any others. The only ones who think that are Satmar chassidim.
ReplyDeleteHow many others can you point to who got anywhere near that kind of sentence?
ReplyDeleteIs it too much to ask that you click the link I so generously provided free of charge? The answer to your question is at the other end of that link.
The community is suspicious when a frum Jew gets stopped for a traffic violation.
ReplyDeleteMy conclusion is that they have people of their kind in the highest places with power, and that's how they are able to squelch the victims and their families. Same like this guy did.
ReplyDeleteYou completely missed my point. You can point to a list of 10 others that received that kind of sentence. If the wikipedia article is true, Weberman received among the top 10 sentences in US HISTORY!!! And in your opinion, that's ok. Because?
ReplyDelete"I have no opinion...I leave it for the prosecutors, judges and juries to decide."
ReplyDeleteDo you have the same attitude about Rubashkin? Pollard? Or only when Satmar is involved do you leave it up to the "justice" system to do what's right?
All the same.
ReplyDeleteHad it been my daughter that disgusting creep raped, I would have wanted him shot, not just put away for 100 years. He got off lightly in my opinion. I have zero sympathy for him.
ReplyDeleteYou put too much faith in the broken American justice system. The sentence of Rubashkin, to take one egregious example, was a gross miscarriage of justice. And need I remind of everyday stories of convicted murderers being exonerated decades later after spending most of the life in prison for a crime they did not commit? Or clear open murderers like OJ Simpson being acquitted?
ReplyDeleteYeah, it's broken any way you look at it. Do you remember the jurors partying with Lemrick Nelson after they acquitted him of murderering Yankel Rosenbaum? When it comes to Jews there is a bias to let those that harm Jews get away as well as to convict and/or punish Jews far quicker than anyone else, the truth being secondary.
I'm sure you would. But the law, both Jewish and secular, do not prescribe a death sentence for rape. Nor do the laws prescribe 100 years. Nor should they.
ReplyDeleteI know perfectly well it's not the law. So what? YitzchokM asked for my opinion. That's my opinion. Whether or not you agree with it is of absolutely no importance to me.
ReplyDeleteI'm sure there has been bias, but the frum oilam turns everything into bias, and worse, uses whatever bias exists to excuse criminal, predatory behavior, as is being done now with this guy Weberman. In your eyes, the story is all about anti-Semitism; the fact that this disgusting creep preyed upon young girls is forgotten or denied.
ReplyDeleteLearn the Mishnah of Harodef achar hazochor, that'll teach you a lesson or two!
ReplyDeleteNothing to be suspicious, it was done beresh gli under the nose of those assigning him to be rosh havaad for many years. He even taunted the girls, should they complain, no one will believe them anyway. Several mothers complained, but nothing was really done. By the time it gets to the law enforcements, dozens have already been victimized. They then gang up and bully their victims and families into not pressing charges or else. The judge took everything into consideration. Compare the two sentences, 60 days versus 50+ years how would you explain that away. Both "frum" with same background.
ReplyDeleteSo your attitude is, let's break a few eggs to make an omelet. That's not our way. The Torah way.
ReplyDeleteWhat;s the שייכות to Rodef? כאן קודם מעשה כאן לאחר מעשה.
ReplyDeleteA real anti-semite would leave molesters in our community to do damage!
ReplyDeleteThe shyches is, once a Rodef kol yomov beroidef veoimed koei lifnei hamaasse, kekelev hashov el kio. They can never be healed, nothing will ever stop them, and they will keep at it again and again. Take a look at each case and you will see, repeat offenders over and over again. Will you at least agree that such should be reported to the Mishtara, as according to R' Elyashiv and the current Poskim involved in latest Issur be*Heter* ?
ReplyDeleteExactly.
ReplyDeleteNo, my attitude is to protect the children from predators. This is a matter of pikuach nefesh, figuratively and literally, and this is the only way to save lives. You, on the other hand, are ready to break more than eggs, you enable those who break people's lives, you enable predators to continue to prey on our children, and you have no omelet to show at the end, just destruction. You're so concerned for the rights of the rapist. Worry a little about the safety of our children.
ReplyDeleteNot so. Molesters continue to molest. It's always קודם מעשה.
ReplyDeleteThere also must be a strong concerned for the accused who may be innocent and thus falsely accused.
ReplyDeleteThe clear unequivocal halacha in Shulchan Aruch is that you are only allowed to harm a Rodef בשעת מעשה.
ReplyDeleteAs saddening as it is to see this problem of molesting, the solution is not jail, it will not stop someone who is ill.
We need solutions within the community, and as long s everyone will close their eyes no solution will be found.
you obviously know nothing about child abuse.
ReplyDelete@David, I am amazed to see you voice such public disdain for the American justice system. It seems like only yesterday that you didn't care much about corrupt courts in Austria who have illegally removed two innocent children from their mother.
ReplyDeletehttp://daattorah.blogspot.co.il/2015/07/schlesinger-twins-rabbis-protest.html
http://daattorah.blogspot.co.il/2015/04/schlesinger-twins-rabbi-dov-kaplan.html
Your comments on those earlier blogs indicate a passing acknowledgement of Austrian corruption in the case of the Schlesinger Twins, but that the focus should be on this innocent mother compromising the children's' childhoods with a criminal.
I would like to invite you to express similar outrage towards the Austrian justice system, just as you have done to the American justice system on behalf of a convicted child rapist and a man convicted of 86 financial fraud charges.
Sorry, but the US justice system is the only one on hand. If a rapist is unhappy with it, let him find a place with a better system and move there to commit his crimes. So long as he commits his crimes here, this is where he'll be tried and punished. You go on and on about how unjust it all is, but you and your utopian dreams offer no real-world alternative to the only justice system that actually exists here, which means that if we follow your prescription, rapists like Weberman will remain free to continue their crimes. Sorry, but that's not acceptable.
ReplyDeleteEducate yourself. Molesters are in a constant state of בשעת מעשה. The threat and danger is ongoing.
ReplyDeleteI know enough and was also involved behind the scenes in a court case of false allegations. In any event, I know the problems first hand, my point was obviously not understood.
ReplyDeleteWhat you can learn fom the Mishnah of haRodef is the following. When he is in heat (1) nothing will stop him short of (2) nitan lehatzilo benafsho. And (3) you are obligated to stop the RODEF, lest you are oiver al (4) Lo sa'amod al dam reacha, since this ma'ase is (5) equivalent lehoireg et haNefesh.
ReplyDeleteSuch a predator is forever on the hunt *in waiting* for the right moment to pounce on the unsuspected victim and nothing can nor will ever stop him short of being physically restrained. By the time YOU find out, he already has a long and bloody trail behind him.
Therefore, no amount of punishment will ever deter him and our children are at constant risk 24/7. Even if he kills one child, it is one child too many and we must keep them safe 24/7 and NEVER put them at risk. The only haven they have is the orei miklat secluded from the general public, that is why we have prisons. It is no different when having a Tiger put in a cage to protect the public at large. We have a Shulchan Aruch to pasken and are not afraid maybe the psak might be incorrect. We lehavdil have a Court System and not act like in Sdom vaAmorah, nor are we afraid of someone get caught up unjustly. We are all obligated to pursue due dilligence, so that a hundred criminals should get their punishment rather than let them all loose for maybe taking a risk of one innocent wrongly put away. How else can you have law and order. And until we have an Urim veTumim this will have to do, unless you come up with a better solution. The jail will not cure his illness, nor is it meant to, but it sure keeps him away from his next victim. Informing children gives them an advantage, but the tigers on the prowl are much stronger than their prey. Those who say otherwise, are asidin liten olov es haDin.
We are talking about a girl, not a boy, so there is no Din of Rodef - unless you hold like the Poskim that a molester nowadays is considered like a רודף אחר חבירו להרגו, but that wasn't what you were saying.
ReplyDeletesee reply to kishkeyum
ReplyDeleteThat is good, since when I previously criticised some (who are now on trial) you attacked me.
ReplyDeleteAre you saying that there may be a distinction between a Rodef after a particular individual, and a Rodef after many children, who is a public menace?
ReplyDeleteThat is based on the Rambam which the Chasam Sofer talks about.
ReplyDeleteThis guy did not discriminate, RODEF mikol habo leyodo, and nebach his victim committed suicide! Let's not make pilpulim while our children are dying, please.
ReplyDeleteTzitz Eliezer (Nishmas Avraham): If the case is rape of young children in school when the teacher does a disgusting act on either boys or girls. It would appear that since in the case of boys, the act of sodomy is liable to capital punishment from a beis din – therefore this is a case of rodef and thus it is permitted to informed the secular authorities as it is in the two previous cases [which were classified as rodef.] However in a case where the teacher is molesting girl it would appear that it is permitted for the doctor who discovers the abuse to expose the matter and to inform the principal of the school. If the principal doesn’t do anything then it would be permitted to report the matter to the police – even outside of Israel. That is because a person who molests more than one person is someone who harms the community and there is no prohibition of informing the authorities (mesira). In fact, not only is it not prohibited as informing (mesira) but there is an obligation to inform the authorities so that the teacher will not continue his evil deeds – not only in this school but also in other schools. It is absolutely clear that in all cases that the doctor is not to take any action without first being convinced that his facts are correct and before he consults with a major rabbinic authority – because this is a life and death situation [not only for the children but for the teacher].
ReplyDeleteRav Eliashiv says there is no diference between boys and girls because of the serious psychological damage from being molested.
You then can just click thumbs up.
ReplyDeleteThe Tzitz Eliezer, by girls, is saying first to inform the principal and only if the principal doesn't get rid of the teacher to then inform the police. But the Tzitz is saying to first try to stop the molester without the police.
ReplyDeleteI don't care about a rapist being unhappy about it; I care about Hashem being unhappy about it. Hashem will be unahappy of we start killing rapists and Hashem will be unhappy if we give someone a punishment for something bad he did that is far worse that deserved or prescribed by Hashem in His Torah. And we as Jews are told not to turn our own over to non-Jews who will punish the Jews cruelly even if the Jew did wrong, when the punishment far exceeds the crime per Hashem.
ReplyDeleteAnd my concern is greatest about innocent accuseds being falsely convicted, as has amply been demonstrated regularly occurs in the non-Jewish court system.
Yes, that is what I'm saying. It is a matter of pikuach nefesh. I'm not talking about his sexual sin.
ReplyDeleteSee kishkeyum reply to you.
ReplyDeleteThis is a new Chidush I am hearing for the first time, and who paskens that?
ReplyDeleteThank you
ReplyDeletelook at Yeshurun vol 15 or you can read my Child and Domestic Abuse Volume II
ReplyDeleteIn that case it should be halachicly permissible or obligatory to kill a molester after he is released from prison, at the end of his term, since he's still a rodef.
ReplyDeletenot sure where you get the idea that anyone labeled as a rodef can be killed. R Ovadiya Yosef said that people who regularly speed have the din of rodef. You really think he meant that they can be killed?!
ReplyDeleteDepends how you get rid of the teacher. Then the question becomes : lama ata zorek avanim mirshus shelach lirshus she'eina shelach? Letting a menace into the Public, why put children in harms way? Either way the Police must be notified, this is a mazik birshus horabim ubirshus hayochid leolam.
ReplyDeleteFair point. But my point that a molester is a rodef before the police/courts are involved remains the same rodef after he's released from prison would remain the same.
ReplyDeleteNot according to the weird Tzitz Eliezer which days if the girls principal takes care of it then the police shouldn't be called.
ReplyDeleteAutocorrect typos in my comment. Didn't row weird.
ReplyDeleteso edit your comment
ReplyDeleteDone.
ReplyDeleteThe tzitz Eliezer is assuming that a molester of girls is not a rodef - but as Rav Eliashiv and many others have said - the severe psychological damage from molesting makes the molester of girls a rodef also.
ReplyDeleteSo Rav Elyashiv disagrees with the Tzitz Eliezer. I was addressing the TE's position.
ReplyDeleteBest yet would be lehatzil be'echod me'eivorov that would get everyone out of harms way once and for all and still be politically and halachically correct.
ReplyDeleteYou be surprised that in some countries they give him a kos shel ikrin and some shackle him with a Chumoz.
There still is a difference when the Rodef is in hot pursuit or in between. Maybe upon release he must wear a straight jacket.
ReplyDeleteThat's a fair statement. And a fair follow up question is, how might that be, just so that others might learn from it. thank you
ReplyDeleteWhy don't you care about "making Hashem unhappy" by allowing these dangerous predators to prey on our children? Bringing in the police has nothing to do with punishment, and everything to do with protecting the children from predators.
ReplyDeleteA very prominent rav with whom I have discussed these issues.
ReplyDeletechemical castration is done in the U.S. as well as other countries - sometimes it works
ReplyDeleteIt appears from the teshuva of the tzitz Eliezer that he expects the principal to insure the person no longer works with girls.
ReplyDeleteRelieving him of his position is a bold step in protecting the girls of the local school but that yet is insufficient for the public at large. If he can't find his victims here, he will move on to greener pastures, that is even outside of schools, I therefore think it is yet not a wholesome solution. It is in the same like of opening up the doors of a stable letting a loose a raging bull. R' Elyashiv's psak is much more sound, and many other gedolim say the same.
ReplyDeleteSome of the poskim there are feministic קלים like Gartner and Goldberg who have no problem with Posele Gittin by creating bogus Heterim.
ReplyDeleteHowever, perhaps we only need the בשעת מעשה against a Rodef to be matzil Nirdaf בכל גופו and not if we do not harm the Rodef בכל גופו
That is a very positive step forwards keeping them out harms way while keeping him away directly. However, he will still pursue in a manner outside of direct employment and there is nothing to prevent him in inflicting harm. Outside of what the law enforcement can do, I don't see it remedied and we do have the obligation in keeping our children out of harms way, directly or indirectly. imho
ReplyDeleteok then
ReplyDeletewhat do you mean?
ReplyDeletemaskim - but we can walk and chew gum at the same time
ReplyDeleteChaim ehud • 4 days ago
ReplyDeletesee reply to kishkeyum
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OK, Here's the reply
Chaim kishkeyum • 4 days ago
A real anti-semite would leave molesters in our community to do damage!
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You agree that a molester is a mazik in synch with my reply. However you reply the Rogitchover way "ayin sham".
In that case you could have just clicked * ^ * = thumbs up as in agreement .
And you can chew gum without even having to talk. If I misunderstood you, then kindly chew it over for me. :-)
Because, like the Torah, I'm more worried about convicting and punishing an innocent man even if the tradeoff is some guilty will not be convicted.
ReplyDelete"Locked Away for 24 Years, an Exonerated Man Still Feels Imprisoned"
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/11/nyregion/locked-away-for-24-years-han-tak-lee-still-feels-imprisoned.html
"Brooklyn Man Is Exonerated After 25 Years in Prison for Murder"
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/11/nyregion/brooklyn-man-is-exonerated-after-25-years-in-prison-for-murder.html
There you have two stories in one day in the newspaper of just one American city to see how bad the American justice system is. A system that regularly convicts the innocent. And gives multi decade jail sentences, that are really death sentences, for even small crimes.
The issue is not that "some guilty will not be convicted." The issue is that our children will not be protected, which clearly you don't give a damn about. Such "tzidkus," to be so concerned for the welfare of rapists and molesters, but not worry a bit about the welfare of innocent victims. You're a sick puppy.
ReplyDeleteThe issue is that you couldn't keep a crap shoot about another Jew. If another Jew is falsely imprisoned for 25 years you feel its no sweat off your back. You are not only willing to sacrifice him on the alter, you want to sacrifice him on the alter. Better to throw an innocent Jews to the lions for food so you can wear a badge on your chest saying what a heroic anti-abuse crusader you are. You are the poster child of rishus. In the dictionary for that term you're photograph could appear alongside the definition to give it a living example.
ReplyDeleteDid you see what the Rambam wrote? Are you making the same claim about him? These issues go back to the gemora with Rav Eliezar Ben Rav Shimon when he started arresting Jews on circumstantial evidence to protect other Jews. Even though all those he arrested were crucified. We clearly paksen that a Jew can protect himself - even if it means that the accused sufferes a much greater punishment than that of the Torah and even if occasionally innocent people are caught
ReplyDeleteYours is the false chassidus that brings destruction. ענוותנותו של זכריה בן אבקילוס. You are a sick, anti-halachic enabler of abusers, a destroyer of lives, pretending to be a great tzadik.
ReplyDeleteRav Eliashiv (Nishmas Avraham 4:208-211) also appears to say to first report it to the principal and only if the principal does not act upon to then report it to the police.
ReplyDeletehttp://daattorah.blogspot.com/2013/10/the-agudas-twisted-path-regarding-abuse.html
I would suggest you check your maternal lineage because it is a virtual certainty there is a break in the line with an unconverted foreign element having entered your bloodline. There is no way such evil advocated by yourself could possible emanate from anyone Jewish. Your advocacy of the destruction of innocent Jews bears no parallel and has no comparison in the long history of my Jewish people.
ReplyDeleteTry having some rachmonus on the victims rather than the criminals, why don't you. You're an enabler, you probably have an abuser in your family you're protecting, or are you an abuser yourself? The only possible reason you would advocate for these scum. The greatest rishus masquerades as rachmonus.
ReplyDeleteIt is you who needs having rachmonus on the victims. Being incarcerated for 25 years whilst innocent is as big a victim as one gets. You may have abused in the past but I don't think the commentators here are judging you on your past abuses however egregious they were. If you served your time and were released you paid your debt to society. Neither I nor anyone here is advocating you be returned to the slammer for another couple decades. But you are a rasha for advocating that innocent people be sent to prison for their life. Just because you came out of prison alive doesn't give indication others will. Especially innocents who were wrongly convicted, as I've amply demonstrated occurs with a regular frequency in the United States. So for you to take your anti-halachic stance and advocate the Torah and Halacha be thrown in the garbage and replaced with laws hat shikur goyim whose careers in being elected depends on passing laws breaking the backs of anyone accused, falsely or otherwise, is an indication that you aren't a member of the Jewish nation. While we accept converts, you must first accept Jewish Law before that can even be considered.
ReplyDeletenot to worry ... the inmates will get his ass.
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