Guest post by a Yeshiva Bachur
Relevant to whether these sorts of topics should be discussed publically is the following medrash rabba.
It's in parshas tazria יט:ג
ר' שמואל בר יצחק פתר קריא בפרשיותיה של תורה אע"פ שנראות כאילו הן כעורות ושחורות לאומרן ברבים כגון הלכות זיבה ונגעים נדה ויולדת אמר הקדוש ברוך הוא הרי הן עריבות עלי שנאמר (מלאכי ג) וערבה לה' מנחת יהודה וירושלים וגו' תדע לך שהוא כן שהרי פרשת זב וזבה לא נאמרו כאחת אלא זו בפני עצמה וזו בפ"ע איש איש כי יהיה זב מבשרו ואשה כי יזוב זוב דמה וגו':
This seems to clearly be saying that the attitude of hush hush that we usually have towards these types of "untzniyus" halachos is in fact wrong and just the opposite hashem finds our learning of them most pleasing. So much so that instead of having them all together in the torah he split them up so they'd get "maximum exposure". This reminds me of the gemaras in brachos that say similarly תורה היא וללמוד אני צורך.
So whether or not the a blog is an appropriate place for discussion of these types of issues is a question to debate, but the reaction of some people that these things should only be learnt privately or one on one or with a rav/chassan teacher etc. does not seem to be the approach of chazal.
(Full disclosure I myself am a bachur in yeshiva, but while we wouldn't regularly come across such explicit stuff like what you posted anyone who learns mishnah berurah will eventually get to siman reish mem and anyone who learns Gemara will learn many similar gemaras like the one in shabbos which is probably more explicit than what you posted. And this is besides for what one picks up from just growing up in today's world unless you live in an extremely sheltered community but even there I can tell you many times the parents and rebbeim are living in denial about what their children know. The point is that today if everywhere around we are exposed to these things but when it comes to Torah we suppress them and refuse to talk it sends very bad signals to talmidim. My rebbeim never shied away from discussing these things with us and and one rebbe who I am very close with once told a group of first year bachurim when discussing a similar topic this exact idea."
And I can tell you from personal experience from learning with younger bachurim still in mesivta that not having rebbeim that will talk about these topics with them can have negative consequences.)
And I can tell you from personal experience from learning with younger bachurim still in mesivta that not having rebbeim that will talk about these topics with them can have negative consequences.)
Kol tuv and zai gezunt
With all due respect we don't pasken from midrashim keneged the mesora. Even if we do, ein lecho bo aleh chidusho. The midrash is limited to zov, ziva, nidda negoim and yoledes. Fine, publish articles on those topics on your blog.
ReplyDeleteNot intimate matters of private interaction between husband and wife in inyonei ishus. The sort of things thay have never been discussed publicaly beranim in an internet blog.
Again we have the typical unamed out of context anecdotes which do nothing to support the publication of this material on a blog.
Somebody is grasping at straws....
In fact the very point that the amora whose name escapes me had to hide under the bed demonstrates clearly that these matters were not discussed brabbim. Otherwise he wouldn't have to hide under the bed. He could have gone to the next shiur on this topic in his local beis hamedrash.
ReplyDeleteI rest my case.
Can I repeat again I am not disputing that our children nowadays have all sorts of knowledge about these matters. As do our chasanim and kallohs. That has nothing to do with publishing this material on a blog which is against the mesora of klal yisroel. I am not sure why you keep bringing up the worldlyness of our children. It is irrelevant to my point. Completely irrelevant.
ReplyDeleteI should summarise as I can't edit my comment. That midrash is discussing inyonei tumah. Not inyonei ishus. If you are going to bring sources, please bring relevant ones!
ReplyDeleteI challenge you to find an early source that inyonei ishus like this can be discussed berabim.
please tell me 1) what does it mean to go against the mesora of klal yisroel. There is no mesora for riding in cars and airplanes? There was no mesora for learning in yeshivas There was no mesora for women's education there is no mesora for wearing a suit or eating pizza etc etc 2) What is the issur? Is it halacha l'Moshe m'Sinai? Doreissa DeRabbonon. 3) Where is the source that one can not publicize this material. It is not Chagiga 11b
ReplyDeletenonsense - that is not proof for your point. He wanted to have more than an intellectual discussion of the matter. Perhaps it was the mesora to learn about these things in that way!
ReplyDeleteSource that a medrash can't be used against a mesora?
ReplyDeleteShimon in case you are serious - there is no mesora about internet because it didn't exist at the time of Moshe Rabbeinu
You are the one is who is grasping at straws. All you are actually saying is this information was not disseminated on a media that didn't exist - so what?!
The Rov concerned was surprised to find him under the bed. So it clearly was not the mesora to learn about these things in that way....
ReplyDeleteThis topic was never darshaned b'rabbim. The media of shiurim has always existed yet this topic was never the topic of public shiurim. Always privately. As and when needed. With sensitivity tzniyus and tact.
ReplyDeleteCorrect, and women's education was a bit of a battle at the time. And chasidim do not wear suits.
ReplyDeleteThere was no mesorah NOT to eat pizza or not to ride in cars and planes. These are neutral topics.
But there is a mesora of not publicising these issues berabim.
Do you know of any public shiurim on these matters? Those readers with parents, please ask them if they recall any public shiurim on these matters? Those readers with grandparents alive please ask them. Or ask parents or grandparents if they recall how these matters were taught. And report back.
I guess I have the wrong version of the Gemorah. My version publicized what he learnt...
ReplyDeleteWhat I cannot begin to understand is why a person would not just skip a conversation or post that he finds irrelevant to him?
To buttress you point R Daniel. The Chasam Sofer used to use mannikins when giving shiurim on Hilchos Nidda to the yeshiva bachurim.
ReplyDeleteTznius that is a barrier to limud is misplaced. Heck, even studying Avoda Zara is muttar for Limud hatorah.
Shimon - the absence of something in the past is not proof that there is a mesorah not to do it.
ReplyDeleteWhy not simply show me the sources in Chazal - rishonim achronim poskim that say that what I am doing is prohibited. Obviously anything which is a mesora must have somebody besides yourself who is aware of it.
Why does the gemora go into detail regarding what he learned?
ReplyDeleteBerachos (62a) It has been taught: R. Akiba said: Once I went in after R. Joshua to a privy, and I learnt from him three things. I learnt that one does not sit east and west but north and south; I learnt that one evacuates not standing but sitting; and I learnt that it is proper to wipe with the left hand and not with the right. Said Ben Azzai to him: Did you dare to take such liberties with your master? He replied: It was a matter of Torah, and I required to learn. It has been taught: Ben ‘Azzai said: Once I went in after R. Akiba to a privy, and I learnt from him three things. I learnt that one does not evacuate east and west but north and south. I also learnt that one evacuates sitting and not standing. I also learnt it is proper to wipe with the left hand and not with the right. Said R. Judah to him: Did you dare to take such liberties with your master? — He replied: It was a matter of Torah, and I required to learn. R. Kahana once went in and hid under Rab's bed. He heard him chatting [with his wife] and joking and doing what he required. He said to him: One would think that Abba's mouth had never sipped the dish before! He said to him: Kahana, are you here? Go out, because it is rude.1 He replied: It is a matter of Torah, and I require to learn.
Why is the gemora talking about how to use the bathroom - do you claim that it is against the mesora to talk about this on a blog? The gemora was/is taught publicly - so how could this gemora exist?
Where is your proof that this was never presented in public. What do you do with the gemora Berachos 62a? Or are you claiming this has never been mentioned in a shiur?!
ReplyDeleteI can't believe your argument here and in the last post with Shimon. Would you support someone opening a public blog discussing sex positions and providing diagrams and the like? All of this is allowed by halacha. Would you post a comment on Oral sex and explain techniques and methods?
ReplyDeleteIt is the absence of something in the past AND the fact that these matters were traditionally taught to chasanim and kallohs immediately before their marriage.
ReplyDeleteSo we have a positive mesora to only discuss these matters with chasonim prior to their marriage.
The absence of something in the past IS proof that there is a mesora not to do it. Otherwise it would be done and we would find reference to it. If you don't like the word 'proof' substitute 'compelling evidence'. But we are playing with words. The evidence is clear and compelling.
The evidence itself is the source of the reason why what you are doing is against mesora - we don't need rishonim acharonim etc. As nobody ever dreamed of making public in English to all and sundry the way you are doing, you won't find anybody publicizing the problem. Tzniyus is something one either appreciates or does not. It is a hergesh, something innate to a Yid. It cannot be taught or 'sourced'.
Look at pashkevilim giving details on hilchos niddoh - they don't even refer to hilchos niddah - they tend to refer to yoreh deah chelek beis. In years where parshas metzora is leined separately, some parsha sheets refer to it as 'Parshas Tehora'. Such is the sensivitiy of Klal Yisroel to these matters.
Again, there may or may not be a serious problem with bochurim in yeshivos. I do not know. But if there is, discuss these things privately with mashgichim. Not on a blog for all and sundry.
My gemoro publised what he learn bremiza - something about the rov is like he has not eaten meat - I don't have it in front of me. But in any event, I don't dispute that there are seforim that discuss these matters, that is not my point.
ReplyDeleteWhere do you get this from? Why do you need mannequins to explain hilchos nidda? What parts of hilchos niddah was he explaining? Do you mean gemoro nidda? Please provide more detail.
ReplyDeletePrivately with mashgichim isn't a solution. What makes a mashgiach an expert on marriage? These letters indicate that Mussar is a significant part of the problem - not the solution.
ReplyDeleteIf the system was working then there is no reason to do things differently - but it isn't. That in fact is why Mishkan Yisroel was written. The Mashgichim were not happy with it.
Shimon the bottom line is that you don't like what I am doing. You have no proof, no text, no statement of a gadol. There is a problem and it is not being handled properly privately
"doing what is required"
ReplyDelete"never sipped the dish before".
Seems b'remiza to me. Not explicit at all.
Richard - do you have a problem with what I have done? What is the basis for your objection? Are you concerned that I am advocating live broadcasts from the bedroom?! Your slippery slope argument is not convincing.
ReplyDeleteWhenever any shiur I have attended come to these topics, they were rushed through, words 'were swallowed' by the magid shiur and never discussed. Certainly never translated.
ReplyDeleteThe same treatment that is given to gemoros about sheidim.
If it was the mesora to hide under the bed, Rav would not have told him off that it was rude.
ReplyDeletemannikin not mannequin
ReplyDeleteI was talking about bochurim in yeshivos doing serious aveiros. That has nothing to do with marriage! You are picking on words. Substitute mashgiach for whoever you like.
ReplyDeleteBottom line is that you are breaching the established znuiyus levels of tora true jews by publishing this private and sensitive material on the internet.
So I'm assuming Rav Moshe Shternbuch agrees with what you have done?
ReplyDeleteGood point, but the conclusion of that Gemara is: "Torah hee v'lilmod ani tzorich"...
ReplyDeleteOf course it is torah, no one is suggesting otherwise.
ReplyDeleteI'm not arguing slippery slope. I'm saying that obviously you agree that not everything that is permitted by Halacha should be broadcast on your blog, otherwise you would have a semi-pornographic site. If you agree that a public widely read blog should not broadcast the Kama Sutra, why do you think that broadcasting these letters from the Steipler? They are on tznius issues and shouldn't be broadcast in public even if permitted by halacha. Traditionally this stuff was not spoken of in public forums.
ReplyDeleteHow do you understand ain dorshim biarayos bishlosho?
ReplyDeleteI brought the sources already - what do you think it means
ReplyDelete(22) רע"ב על מסכת חגיגה פרק ב משנה א
(א) אין דורשין בעריות. לשלשה בני אדם כאחד אין דורשין להם סתרי עריות, כגון בתו מאנוסתו דלא כתיבא בקרא בהדיא ואתיא מדרשא. שמא בזמן שמדבר הרב עם אחד ישאו ויתנו השנים ביניהם, ולא יתנו לבם לשמוע מפי הרב כשדרש בו איסור, ויבואו להקל בעריות ע"י שנפשו של אדם מתאוה להן ומחמדתן יותר משאר איסורים שבתורה:
It's really irrelevant what "you" think is the correct way. In Judaism, at least the frum orthodox one, we listen to what real "daas Torah" says. Finding some letter or some sefer written a few hundred years ago means nothing. This isn't the academic world where an apikorsic book from 300 years ago holds the same weight as the shach or taz. You always qoute Rav Shternbuch to back you up, so what does he say on this matter? Does he agree with this public forum on sex?
ReplyDeleteI guess you don't have a mesorah on these things...
ReplyDeleteAre you deleting my posts because they point out your pathetic hypocrisy? Obviously having written a few insignificant books as gotten to your head, and you know think you're a maan d'amar. Perhaps you should join the open orthodox movement as they obviously suit your beliefs
ReplyDeleteFirstly, I would like to say that I believe that you have done a great service for the public by posting Rav Wolbe and the Steipler on these issues. The simple reading of the shulchan aruch about keilu kafo shed could lead to a totally erroneous conclusion.
ReplyDeleteAdditionally, anyone on your blog has access to the Internet and there is far more misleading and injurious information available than misunderstanding halacha would lead to and Torah guidance is needed for everyone.
I heard from someone who had difficutly having children that he had spoken to Rav Yaakov Kaminetsky z"l and the rav told him that he was to frightened and not enough besimcha when engaged in marital relations. He changed his attitude and solved his problem.
The optimum solution of 1 to 1 talks where everything is clear is not always available and I believe that the gemara in Chagiga advocates a limited audience where possible.
You also brought down the Sekulener document which is very good. However, I find the tone somewhat negative and it doesn't give hope for those who need to know that there is kosher way to achieve what is needed. I assume that would be provided in direct discussion. There is an especially great need foer awareness since there are pedophiles seeking to take advantage of the innocent.
Unmarried people also need strategies such as involvement in learning which is the best since torah tavlin liyetzer hora. However, other parve activites can keep people distracted.
So now myself and Richard both confirm that the mesora or tradition is that this stuff was not spoken of in public forums.
ReplyDeleteTwo witnesses is sufficient proof al pi tora. So you have proof, Rabbi Eidensohn.
Having seen Shimon's many מחאות over the dozens of comments he's made over the last several days, I must ask:
ReplyDeleteI wonder if he sees the incredible irony inherent in this back and forth on the internet. After all, is this not the same internet which garnered the profound warnings of the 'gedolim'? Is this medium not the same one which elicited a historical (and costly) asifa that stripped the Olam Haba of 'all and sundry' who refuse to rid themselves of its use? Is this not the very internet that has allegedly brought טומאה into our Jewish homes?
Yet even dear Shimon is here, since he knows that all the pontificating of our 'wise' ones have meant nothing to the כלל. The web is here to stay.
So, given what people could find on the internet with a few quick searches, you're against these types of discussions? You rail about a non-existent mesora, given what bochurim could really expose themselves to with a few quick searches? Really?
Last I checked hilchos niddah and zav involve more than just "tumah". But either way instead of nitpicking the medrash so you can disregard it why don't you admit that the idea it's trying to convey is that topics that people find unseemly to discuss publically because they involve some sexual discussion is not the view of the Torah.
ReplyDeleteDo you have one early source that these inyanim cannot be discussed publically?
I suppose you also hold then that hilchos bais hakisei can also only be taught privately by specially trained teachers and that the amora there couldn't find a shiur on it so he had to follow his rebbe to the bathroom. This even though the gemara there goes into the halachos in detail. Obviously not. And what about the countless other gemaras and medrashim that discuss sexual matters. Just because the magidei shiur you know skip these inyanim does not mean that the tannaim did!
ReplyDeleteExactly the point the reason Rav told him to leave was because it was rude not because we don't discuss these subjects.
ReplyDeleteRav didn't tell him how dare you ask what goes on in my bedroom he gave him an explanation. He was upset that he intruded on his privacy not that he wanted to learn about the subject
ReplyDeleteThe remazim in the Gemara were perfectly understood at the time by the general public in fifty years people will consider things we don't consider remazim to be so. The rishonim have no issue spelling out and arguing in graphic detail exactly what these "remazim" refer to.
ReplyDeleteI think you forgot the "lilmod ani tzorech" part
ReplyDeleteWhat has one thing got to do with the other?
ReplyDeleteWe have to copy the goyim and publish our private material for all and sundry to mock and laugh? This breach of our very existent mesorah is not justified by the fact that there is plenty out there on the web anyway.
Of course we discuss these subjects, but not an internet blog. These subjects have traditionally been discussed one to one in a private and discreet setting.
ReplyDeleteWould he allow without bochurim present? In English, with the world's media invited?
ReplyDeleteDon't get your point.
ReplyDeleteWell, yes I suppose they involve a blanket prohibition against relationships. Oh, and and things like how to do hefsek tahara or to tovel in a mikva. How to do a hefsek tahara and tovel is published in English and is widely available. But that is not the same as intimate matters between husband and wife. The midrash is not referring to sexual discussion.
ReplyDeleteMy source that these inyanim cannot be discussed publicly is that they are not! See my earlier comments.
you are not a witness you are advocating a particular view. It could be within your experience it hasn't been done but so what?
ReplyDeleteIn the time of the amoraim the halocho had not yet been finalised, so it makes sense that the talmid wanted to know how to behave from his personal rebbe. The gemoros that cover the halochos in depth may have been written by amoraim after the bathroom story, you need to date the amoroim to get clear on this point.
ReplyDeleteThis means that you can't bring any proofs from that story. Either way. There may have not been anything to discuss b'rabbim at that stage in history.
Keep in mind that you have not provided convincing evidence that these matters WERE spoken about b'rabbim. I go by the evidence of my eyes and I have only ever seen this matter dealt with discreetly and privately.
ReplyDeleteHe shouldn't.
ReplyDeleteyou are clearly missing the point. I asked you where there is any place in Chazal etc that says this is prohibited. As noted there are a lot of things that haven't been done in previous periods of time but they are not prohibited to do.
ReplyDeleteYour claim that it is the mesorah not to do such - You have provided zero proof.
please - your are creating pseudo history. You have presented no evidence that there is a rigid set of rules in this area - that there isn't is clear from Nedarim 20b
ReplyDeleteSo, it therefore must be learned correctly, even at the expense of privacy. ..
ReplyDeleteFor those who understand, but for those who don't, no choice but to spell it out. .....and for those who won't get it any other place, especially if they don't know where to go, then this forumis needed. ...
ReplyDeleteרלב"ג פרשת תצוה
ReplyDeleteוהלבשת את אהרן את הכנת אין ספק שכבר לבשו תחלה המכנסים אמנם לא זכרה התורה זה להתרחק מהזכיר דבר ערוה
On the contrary, after his disciple said he needed to understand Torah, Rav then accepted his explanation!
ReplyDelete....and then, his disciple, I'm sure left.....by mutual agreement. ...
You did not answer any of my points.
ReplyDeleteAnd you cannot say the fact we don't discuss them is a reason not to. That itself is what we are arguing about- why don't we, when did that start, is it the right approach, etc. that is not a source
You don't seriously believe that you just gave a cogent response do you?
ReplyDeleteYou cannot prove anything in history. But you can provide compelling evidence. And the evidence is that we do not find any shuls or botei midrashim having or ever having had public shiurim in matters bein ish leishto.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you that that was the general trend. The question is was that an absolute guideline or the best way in the circumstance. In an ideal world I think the private way is a more ideal approach but today I'm not sure it still works for many reasons. Just because something was historically done does not make it mesorah. Never in our history were Jews working as computer programmers does that mean that we have a mesorah not to. Certain things are done in a pragmatic way whatever works best. The chassidish approach is never change anything no matter what but the litvish never held like that.
ReplyDeleteI don't quite follow you here . Please clarify your comment.
ReplyDeleteWait...you are saying that publishing the Steipler's teshuva is akin to 'copying the goyim', and you are asking me what one thing has to do with the other?
ReplyDeleteLook, the ironclad 'mesora' handed down at the asifa was to avoid the internet at all costs. So, follow the mesora. You are risking your Olam Haba by being here, and your message is lost not just on those that frequent this blog, but on the המון עם as well.
Besides, learning through the Steipler's teshuva on הנהגת האדם בביתו can't possibly be as valuable as commenting on YWN or vosizneias. Go, have fun.
There are plenty of places in chazal that discuss the inyan of tzniyas, hatznea leches, loshon nekiya etc etc.
ReplyDeleteBut I am not going to provide any of them, because you will just nit pick and find chilukim.
Look, of all the thousands of people that read your blog, all but one has provided an example of a public shiur on these inyonim. And that shiur was given by a rabbi, who judging from the comments that followed, is not one you would like to bring as your 'source'. That's pretty compelling to me.
And to repeat myself again, I never claimed it was ossur (If I did, I was in error). I said it was a breach in mesorah.
This is a quote from your article on Aron Ramati's school:
ReplyDelete"After talking with people with connections to chinuch in Israel, it is clear that the school is considered a cult and is not an accepted part of Orthodox education "
Who determines the "accepted part" of Orthodox education?
And Ramati is a cult leader because he doesn't fit some imaginary definition of "accepted"?
Is there a mesora on what is accepted as part of Orthodox education??
And if there is, I think we all know that sexual discussion of this type is not part of "accepted Orthodox public discourse or education". Does that make you a cult leader as well?
There is something very illuminating in what you're saying. The magid shiur didn't translate the words; but Chazal said them in the language that was spoken at the time so that they would be understood. Chazal spoke at great length about sheidiim, yet these gemoras are now rushed through. Is is possible that our modern sensibilities about these subjects causes us to ignore chazal's perspective? Is the magid shiur scared to get questions he feels incapable of answering? Could this be a mesorah created by the personal discomfort of teachers?
ReplyDeleteHaha. The Talmud yerushalmi wasn't studied for so long we're missing whole chunks of it. I guess our mesora is not to study it and therefore assur.
ReplyDeleteIt is always bad to assume halacha based on something currently done. A good example is people who use less than a reviis for making kiddush on whisky.
Err. He is a cult leader because he brainwashes chosen girls to think he is their master and must do as he says. Perhaps do some research.
ReplyDeleteNo, we are not arguing about that at all.
ReplyDeleteWe are arguing about whether publicising this material in public in a blog was a breach of gidrei tzniyus that these matters were never discussed in public in this manner. If it was a breach, who or how did the person that made the breach allow himself to do so, unilaterally and change the mesorah.
That is a 'yes', 'no' discussion. Nothing as complicated as why don't we, when did that start, is that the right approach etc. That is a classic technique of never answering the question, for politicians, not for talmidei chachomim.
But at the moment, the author appears to be saying that it is not a breach of the mesora (dispite the fact that no reader of the blog bar one has produced any evidence of public shiurim on this matter - neither present or historically, as opposed to the negative evidence that most of us know from growing up that these matters were simply not discussed in public and we had to wait until a few days before our chasuna - I am talking about in the circles I grew up, (yeshivish torahdik cheriedi) which I assume the author identifies with) , which means he does not need to deal with the second difficult question.
Talking about private subjects we don't discuss is sort of rude, no? You are playing with words again.
ReplyDeletePlease refer to my earlier comments on this. There was no mesora not to work as a computer programmer, so that point is irrelevant.
ReplyDelete"Just because something was historically done does not make it mesorah." - So what does make it mesora then? Isn't that the classic definition of mesora?
"but today I'm not sure it still works for many reasons."/ Yes you are probably right, so we need to find a way that does work. But that is not a logical argument to prove that the way the author has chosen is the right way. It isn't for many reasons.
It could be, but maybe it isn't. Maybe there are different reasons. Who knows? That is a totally separate subject. Maybe people on those days were on a much higher level of torah living, they could cope. I simply do not know and will not speculate.
ReplyDeleteIt is not a logical argument that this blog is not a breach of mesorah and tzniyus, which is my point.
Errrrr, David, not only have I done research, I've done very intensive research.
ReplyDeleteI can tell you who the rodfim of Ramati are and why they're being Rodef.
The Eida Chareidis Rov of Elad put out a pashkevil on Erev Succos this year supporting Ramati and bashing the "askan" who is rodef him.
He is nowhere near a cult leader and doesn't brainwash anyone.
The Chasam Sofer used manikin? Where did ever hear such an idiotic thing?
ReplyDeleteRabbi, can I write a guest post on this blog explaining the best way to perform Oral sex on your wife? After all, the Rambam is matir and it is permitted by Halacha. It might even prevent sin as people enjoying sex would have less reason to stray outside marriage. According to the logic you have expressed in these comments you should no problem allowing such posts. Didnt Chazal discuss tzniut in public?.....
ReplyDeleteA Mesorah not to eat pizza? Who says?! Did you ever hear of a rebbe feering a pizza Tisch or falafel Tisch? Lololllllllll. ...............why? Because the rebbe's elter zeide didn't have a pizza or falafel tisch again, Lololllllllll lll lll ,so maybe you should include the pizza in your motion ; -D..... the Ratzferter Rebbe, Reb Shulem Lazer, wouldn't eat something his father wouldn't because he wouldn't know what kavanah to have in mind for that particular food, do you include that in Mesorah? I still eat pizza. ....
ReplyDeleteWe are going in circles here. The crux of the issue is whether the lack of public discussion in recent times was done because that was davka the mesorah how to do it or because people's feelings or other reasons caused it but not because there was a carefully weighed halachic and hashkafa psak on it. We see many times where a false sense of tzniyus makes people do things that are not the Torah way for example women not asking niddah shailos and instead being machmir or not reporting sexual abuse and many others. Until you address this point you are simply repeating yourself.
ReplyDeleteI think you are the one playing with words here. I'm sure even you will agree there is a difference between talking about sexual matters and hiding in the room.
ReplyDeletecan you make Kiddush on Coke, and does it need to be flat?
ReplyDeleteR' Shulem Eliezer'l could have eaten Pizza or Falaffel without any reservations, The Kerestirer rebbi ate with the kevana lesoiva veloi lerozoin no matter what the menu. Pizza is a very chosheve food as well as masoretic, since it's name is derived after Matzo, and it has a siman muvhak of tloso karnese, and falaffel is the ma'achal that Doniel ish chamudos ate in the Palace of nebuchadnetsar as well as Chummus. This chummus he ate still as a kid in Yerushalayim. It's a true Masores food going back to Boaz and Ruth and before.
ReplyDeleteAround 25, perhaps 30 years ago, in response to reports of many sholom bayis issues as well divorces in Lakewood, there was a public mass gathering of the bnei hayeshiva, called for by the gedolei eretz Yisrael (IIRC broom rav shah). At this gathering a speaker addressed all of the points from the steiplers letter as well as many other concepts. The main themes were prishus in this area at too young an age can be disastrous, one has no right to engage in prishus on his wife's cheshbon, etc. The speech was recorded and cassettes were distributed in BMG. I know this because when I became engaged some 15 years ago my father gave me this tape to listen to. So to say that it was never discussed publicly is incorrect.
ReplyDeleteI should note that my father told me as well that the mashgiach, rav nosson ztl was of the opinion that only men should listen to this tape, not women.
I have discussed it.
ReplyDeleteThe gemoro itself refers to these matters in nedorim as "devorim beino lebeinoh" things betweem him and her. In other words private things not to be discussed on a blog.
The reason is tzniyus, hatznea leches, the innate modesty of a jew. That is a combination of both people's feelings and hashkafic/halachik reasons.
You constantly reiterate the argument that it is ok to prevent people doing worse aveiros or along those lines. That is pure deflection, it may be a problem, but on its own cannot provide justification that this blog post is the right way to set out about fixing things. There are many other ways all compatible with tzniyus.
Quite apart from the fact it is a classic tactic of the yeyzer horo. Stay in bed and miss minyan which is only derabonon so you learn tora better which is a doyreysoh. It is not for us to make chashbonos.
What is your point? I guess that your point is that although that these articles are helpful to some people, since they have the potential to be used incorrectly, they should not be published.
ReplyDeleteYou should consider that you definitely have a point, as the Gemorah in Boba Basra 89 says that Rav Yochonan thought about your point:
על כולן אמר רבן יוחנן בן זכאי: אוי לי אם אומר, אוי לי אם לא אומר. ... אמרה, ומהאי קרא אמרה: 'כי ישרים דרכי ה' וצדיקים ילכו בם ופושעים יכשלו בם' (הושע י"ד, י)"
You should see the Gemora's conclusion as well.
My point is that this "mesorah" is against the mesorah of Chazal, based on the idea that they were on a much higher level of Torah living. What is wrong with sticking with Chazal?
ReplyDeleteYou are a pig.
ReplyDeleteI was trying to make a point, stupid. About tzniut or the lack thereof.
ReplyDeleteBy doing the same? Such a pig.
ReplyDeleteRav Daniel,
ReplyDeleteThe lengthy and detailed report into Jimmy Saville's misdeeds at the BBC has been published. You may like to link to it and invite a guest speaker to discuss it in depth, on the basis that it may provide valuable assistance in the fight against ignoring those leaders of our community or teachers who commit abuse. Who knows, perhaps it will persuade one abused student (who currently has no other source of information or help apart from your blog) to make a complaint?
What I find more telling is that the following disclaimer appears;
Content warning: Please note, the documents below include some
graphic evidence and descriptions of sexual assault which some readers
may find distressing.
If a non Jewish organisation is sensitive enough to provide such a disclaimer, I believe that you should put a similar appropriate disclaimer on your posts that deserve it.
Thank you
good idea - would you like to do it?
ReplyDeleteThank you for the offer, but I have a mesora to stick to loshon nekiya ut'zunah. Even when copying and pasting.
ReplyDeletelifnei Iveir?
ReplyDelete??????
ReplyDeleteYes, I do see the irony. What of it?
ReplyDeleteThe author of this blog says he has the full haskomo of Reb Moshe Sternbuch. Not sure if that means RMS knows of approves of everything he posts or not.
never said I had the full haskomo of Reb Moshe Sternbuch
ReplyDeleteLet me help you with the source for this. The Ramban al Hatorah makes the assertion that Hebrew is called Lashon Hakodesh because it does not have any unclean words. The Rambam in Moreh Nevuchim disagrees and points out that the word Shegel appears in the Tanach and means the act of intercourse explicitly. Therefore the Rambam says it's called Kodesh because Hashem speaks to the neviim, created the world, etc. with it.
ReplyDeleteRegarding the warning about the content, it's worthwhile to read The Atlantic's article called "The Coddling of the American Mind".
ReplyDeleteYes he used them. It can found in the הנהגות ספר put out by Pressburg. It can be procured in the YU library. And in sure other places as well.
ReplyDeleteYes he used them. It can found in the הנהגות ספר put out by Pressburg. It can be procured in the YU library. And I'm sure other places as well.
ReplyDeleteFair enough, I recall now it is a machlokas ramban and rambam. There is kr'i k'siv in the tochacha from 'Yishgelenu' to 'Yishkevenu' I remember.
ReplyDeleteBut how common is the word "shegel" in the writings of the rishonim and acharonim? Not very.
Ironically, I think if you would take head count (in Chofetz Chaim) style of opinions, you will find the vast majority of the rishonim (igros kodesh, ba'al nefesh etc) all stress the ascetic/keduasha side of these matters, while the acharonim and chazal do not. I have to be a bit vague and generic here, otherwise the author of this blog will bite my head off. The real stress of the igros kodesh/ba'al nefesh is that you should not think of the act as 'dirty', like Christian thought. They certainly do not stress the 'every thing a man wants he can do with his wife' attitude, but remain ascetic. So this blog is a little contradictory is quoting large chunks of translation.
How many people actually wait for chatzos haleila these days? In the UK, that is as late (or early depending on your POV) as 12.45 - 1.15 AM in the summer. That means possibly 2AM before you can get to sleep. And then you run into problems as it is after alos. So do people set an alarm clock?
How many people 'eat the food' suggested by the rishonim prior to the act? garlic?
There's a Takanas Ezra to eat garlic on Friday night ( Bava Kama 82a) which apparently was so widespread that Jews are called "eaters of garlic" in the mishna in Nedarim 31a. This seems to have disappeared nowadays. I remember one of my friends asking a tremendous Talmid Chochom why only recently did Limud Hatorah become the topic of Ballei Musar, but we don't find it in the earlier sources? He replied that then it wasn't an issue because people learned, so why should they write about it. Perhaps so too here, the Rishonim felt no need to reiterate what Chazal had said, as it was known already from the many gemoras. We can't say that the Rishonim had a different philosophy just based on their relative silence. Especially as we try to avoid making a machlokes when we can. It's more mistaver to me that everyone agrees with Chazal but some people have always tried to be bigger ascetics.
ReplyDelete