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One of the great tragedies of the this crises is the way the issue of a heter which is causing a couple to commit adultery - is being avoided. Neither Rav Shmuel Kaminetsky or Rav Nota Greenblatt have actually defended their actions. The following excuses for not discussing the heter is 1) it is complicated so don't mix in 2) I didn't investigate the facts but depended on a psychiatrist who must know what he is doing or else he would damage his reputation 3) I didn't pasken but relied totally on somone else 4) It is worse to criticize a gadol then to commit adultery 5) Rav Kaminetsky and Rav Greenblatt have done so much for Yiddishkeit - how dare you open your mouth.
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FIRST VERSION
SECOND VERSION - added it is Torah requirement to fully accept his psakim
Is this support letter only from Alumni and former talmidim of Philadelphia Yeshiva? or is it the General public? ,one cant read the 55 names,
ReplyDeleteioioi
ReplyDeleteRav Shmuel Kaminetsky receives support - not for being right but for being a gadol.
The headline should read - for being a FORMER GADOL.
The adulterous marriage is just the culmination of the Kaminetsky involvement Neged Hatorah in this situation. From day one, they have acted against Bais Din in their actions against AF and his family. Demonstrations, fake Seriuv, attempted kidnapping, were all done without the approval of Bais Din. It is only now that the world is up in arms. The Kaminetsky family should of been condemned by supporters of Torah years ago.
ReplyDeleteAshreichem yisroel!!!! Not one signatory who didn't learn in Philly . And quite a few woodworking Philly did not sign a pretty pathetic lineup
ReplyDeleteOh so now he must be right
ReplyDeleteI will just copy/paste my comment from this morning, which seems even more apt right now:
ReplyDeleteWhat is taking place now is that the propriety of this blog has become the issue receiving attention now, which is distracting from the travesty of the heter and the lies and corruption that led to it.
It is a brilliant deflection strategy, to be sure...
Are the shenanigans and lies in this heter a continuation of the mesores rabboseinu of the doros hakodmim like Reb Yaacov and Reb Aharon?
ReplyDeleteOne thing this shows that these people are feeling the heat. A good thing.
ReplyDeleteWhile the loyalty is touching (not) and brings a tear to the eye, this letter is meaningless. Rebbie, we are upset that people are saying mean things about you. We love you so much we are willing to ignore the fact that you played a major role in what could very well be the downfall of קדושת כלל ישראל. Really silly.
Rav newman is from union, nj, not linden, nj.
ReplyDelete2. This is a fan club letter, not a torah letter on halacha.
only one question for the people who signed this letter?
ReplyDeleteWOULD YOU LET YOUR CHILD OR GRANDCHILD MARRY A CHILD BORN TO TAMAR AND ADAM???
IF YES OK BUT IF THE ANSWER IS NO - THEN WHAT ARE YOU SIGNING??
That's it now we are all convinced that daas torah knows better than the torah
ReplyDeleteLol this is his talmidim making a feeble attempt to protect THEIR own dignity. All of these signatures to not measure up to one from Reb Chaim or Rav Shternbuch nor the Gaavad and the list continues.
ReplyDeleteA while back, someone was seeking the names of chashuve Philly talmidim. Here they are.
ReplyDeleteYou know, קרח also had 250 ראשי סנהדראות who supported him. There are something like 70 signatures on the above, but I can barely identify them. If I knew who they were I would approach them and ask if they were ever "mesader" a get. Or if they ever were an עד on a get. Better yet, if they ever had even seen a get in their entire life. I would further ask them if they know of any "mesader" of a get (other than Rabbi Greenblatt) who would write a תשובה explaining at length why a get was not needed for Tamar Epstein to remarry.
ReplyDeleteI know that Rabbi Landesman wrote a 10 page תשובה arguing that the "heter" was totally inappropriate. If there can be any way to defend the " heter" why is there not a similar paper explaining that position. The only thing I see is a lot of yelling that Rabbi Kaminetsky and Rabbi Greenblatt are "Gedolim" and therefore have no need to defend themselves against anyone. They are infallible and they may rule by fiat.
I'm sorry, but no single sage may rule independently. אל תהי דן יחידי says the Mishnah. In fact, we know that Rabban Gamliel, the Nosi of Sanhedrin at Yavneh, was removed from his position by his own inferiors because of behavior they deemed unseemly. Only after Rabban Gamliel was reconciled with Rabi Yehoshuah ben Hananiah, was he restored to his position, and even then his restoration was only partial.
T
Can someone please enlarge, or please post image that could be enlarged
ReplyDeleteRDE you missed the point. When you are a gadol, you are ממילא right.
ReplyDeleteBut in all seriousness, is this just a list of taldmidim? Or of peers as well. Some of these people I have never heard of before so I cant date them.
But if it is including peers, their are alot of significant missing names. RMH, RYYP, RMS, RRF. המבין יבין.
More kol heneorim copy and paste wholesale. Humbug!
ReplyDeleteThese names are from the Yahrtzeit luach they once used to give hechsherim on filtered water and electricity.
ReplyDeleteFirst of all, please turn off your ALL CAPS, IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU ARE SHOUTING. Second of all, you are conflating two issues. This letter is not about the pesak, it is about the public bizayon of R' Shmuel. One can be firmly against the pesak and firmly in support of upholding R; Shmuel's kavod. See, e.g., Feldman, R' Aharon.
ReplyDeleteCut n paste into your e-mail and enlarge to your hearts content. There are other features there as well.
ReplyDeleteProbably went to the cemetary to collect signatures. He ask them a haskama on the Heter, silence, then paskened shtika kehoydo'oh. Maybe he even used them as Beis Din as well with heter meah.
ReplyDeleteIllegible because of the shamta YMS lo alenu and even the screens comply.
ReplyDeletePleas answer his question. Whether you perceive him to be shouting is irrelevant. Be an adult.
ReplyDeleteRapCommentary writes: “… for now it looks like mainly
ReplyDeleteRav Shternbuch and Rav Kanievksy have stepped into the breach to prop up the
Emes of Halacha, but they are in Eretz Yisroel, while back in the good ol' USA
the American Aguda crowd is banding together because if they don't, they are
history.”
I’m an economist, PhD.
Yes, the fall in the stock markets, bond markets, oil prices---endangers
the wealthy that support the radical feminists.
The yeshivot and kollels in the USA that these wealthy support may be in
danger, Heaven forbid, of bankruptcy (of closing). There is much less danger in Israel of
yeshivot and kollels closing.
In my view central banks are still playing a pyramid game
with their money printing (issuing government bonds). This is endangering the world economy. Obama
and leftists still favoring Iran and dis-favoring Israel endanger the world. There
is much less danger in Israel. See http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/18201#.Vo-Nx5uIrIU
כל החולק על פסקו חולק על השכינה. Interesting. The Gemara in סנהדרין קי says it refers to ones Rebbe. חולק על רבו.
ReplyDeleteSo I guess this letter is meant for the choir or the taldmidim of Philly who are on the fence.
Funny i thought that Rav Shmuel didn't pasken anything??
Secondly this just shows how little people are investigating this issue. Noone is hondeling the psak. Bc there is no psak. The information that led to the supposed psak is under fire. It was sheker v'chozov to begin with.
Although even assuming the facts are correct the psak is also under dispute. But that is being extremely generous to lend it credence.
For all those who are hard of hearing. ....
ReplyDeleteAh, wouldn't mind if you introduce me to Philly talmidim who didn't sign!. ....
ReplyDeleteREGARDING your first paragraph:
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately, I would ask them if they ever learned Mesechta Gittin, period...
They SOUND DEAF, you need a BULLHORN
ReplyDeleteComplaining about the usage of the Internet. Consider it as the Philadelphia Flyers, and the HETER as the *Philadelphia EXPERIMENT!* As the legend goes, all participants ended up Toit Meshuga bimlo muven hamila. Back to the PROTEST
ReplyDeleteWhy should I answer his question? I didn't sign the letter (nor would I have signed it had I been asked, if that is your next question).
ReplyDeleteTo which you might add that even the existence of the Husband is under dispute, like the Siruv and chiyuv etc.
ReplyDeleteIn addition to masechet Sanhedrin, we have testimony from RHS that his psokim are SOD H' LIREIOV v'ein cholkin olov, unless nisgaleh kloinoi behedye of ukvar hoireh hazoken.
Of course not, they skip that and go straight to masechet rofl Kidushin. He didn't even know where Names are mentioned in the gemora.
ReplyDeleteThe original version said nothing about the psak. Then came a new version saying that you have to listen to the psak, with all the signatures.
ReplyDeleteIt seems that the text about listening to the psak was added after the signatures were received.
I guess it's possible that they went back to all the signers and they agreed to the new nusach, but it certainly looks fishy...
Well quite a few of the signatories are 40 years old with half-baked credentials , Philly has hundreds if not thousands of alumni students and they only can put together 30 names??????
ReplyDeleteNah, you don't get it. The letter was written by the pro heter chevra. They duped those who signed into thinking it was only a general letter supporting RSK as a godol and then went and changed the language to what it is now.
ReplyDeleteHow low can they stoop!!!
funny how with this update we dont get to see the original What happens when the next letter comes out with more signatures and its not the updated version what happens then?
ReplyDeleteI THINK THE APPROPRIATE TITLE FOR THIS IS MAKING OF A GADOL 2!
ReplyDeleteFinally we come full circle and the Kamenetsky's show themselves up again as the long time managers in the GADOL factory.
This is a fake look at the original and the updated version
ReplyDeleteKlal Yisroel has been fortunate to have two "Meor Hagole"s:
ReplyDeleteRabbeinu Gershon Meor Hagole and Rabbenu Shmuel Meor Hagole.
The former is famous for the issur of two wives, the latter for hetter of two husbands.
Yes I have a copy of the original version doesn't mention anything about the psak. Not sure on how to upload it to the blog , following in the tradition of anything what passes through the k's ,two versions of events dishonesty cover-up , denial and obfuscation
ReplyDeleteHe is shouting. He's upset.
ReplyDeleteWhy not post both versions side-by-side for "comparison" sake
ReplyDeleteThinking out loud, If they were pressured (for which I do have a hunch), then why couldn't they get more signatures?
ReplyDeleteI had originally posted the original version but was told that the second version was the updated version If anyone has evidence that the second version is not valid - please let me know.
ReplyDeleteprovide me with evidence as to whether any versions are not authentic or that one version is a fake
ReplyDeleteNo problem - but first I'd like to know whether either is a fake and whether there will be new variations being produced
ReplyDeleteThe first version indicated (lower left hand corner) that this was only a partial list, as they were in the process of adding more signatures. So I expected that the updated list would merely have more names appended to it. LO AND BEHOLD we have a new text (!) that the signators allegedly put their name to. So we wonder which version is the real one, and what's the story behind the two versions of the text? Maybe some Philly guys can enlighten us...
ReplyDeleteWhy "first"? Until it can be clarified which is the "real" version, both should be posted. To me, it smels like, as others have noted, that the signatures were for a general "R' Shuel is a big gadol" letter, and the part relating to the pesak was added in later.
ReplyDeleteyou are correct - post now has both versions of the letter.
ReplyDeleteThanks.
ReplyDeleteJust wondering, which version is the real one, and what's the story behind the
ReplyDeletetwo versions of the text? Maybe some Philly guys can enlighten us...
without getting into the specifics of this case, the claim that it is a Torah commandment to follow Gedolim is one of the bases of Daas Torah ideology. The same argument has been used to attack non hareidi groups, eg MO and Tzioni, as well as Sephardim.
ReplyDeleteAn example is the Yated article on the Goren/Langer case. One of its arguments is that R Goren appointed new dayanim in his court, and prevented "Talmidei hachamim" from being dayanim. That means that only the approved hareidi dayanim are "tammidei hachamim", and the modern dayanim are not.
Btw, it is claimed that it is a Torah commandment to follow Gedolim, becasue of lo tasur. So these arguments are common currency in Hareidi discourse.
Eddie you obviously didn't read what the letter said. Not only is it required to listen to everything he has paskened but it prohibited to listen to those who disagree. That is not Daas Torah hashkofa which says you need to listen to gedolim but doesn't specify one gadol over others.
ReplyDeleteI spoke on erev shabos to two of the signers and they said they never signed that letter what was done is they took their signature from a different letter and put it on and they are fuming
ReplyDeleteThey are going to call it
ReplyDeleteThe making of a mamzer
They didn't go back to them and they promised them that no will see it only RSK
ReplyDeleteThe second is what they posted all over lakewood on erev shabbos right before shabbos
ReplyDeleteThis is bizarre. We are supposed to listen to his Psak that he never gave?!
ReplyDeleteIts an old lawyer trick. Two versions of a contract. (The first version usually has long irrelevant contract clauses. The second has completely new items (often including an arbitraton clause to an improper bet din, which makes the whole contract worthless.)
ReplyDeleteNow we should make a new bible under the banner of daas torah
ReplyDeletethe original version you had was correct as you can see from the title it was addressed to the Rosh Yeshiva and the premise was not to get involved in the psak as the Rosh Yeshiva has stated. let the Rabbonim deal with it bkoived roish and not on the blogs. Someone took that original letter and added a whole sentence to include kol hachoilek......... in order to stoke the fires of the machlokis.
ReplyDeleteThe version about Yemin and Smol was having in ask shuls in Lakewood over Shabbos. Seems to be the real one!
ReplyDeleteAll these Rabonim signed so they can demand the same allegiance from their balabatim.
ReplyDeleteSo self serving.
Gitten is a yeshivshe meschta, so of course they learn
ReplyDeleteGitten. However, a good question is, do we call learning a few dafim in a
mesechta learning a meschta. More so, do
we call learning a meschta the way it’s learned in yeshivos today learning at
all – is lomdus classified as learning. I mean is it applicable to real life
situations – aliba dhilchasa.
Yes and no
ReplyDeleteI didnt read what the letter said
however, when there was a dispute between Gedolim in Israel over a new political party, it was "assur" to vote for RSA's party, or to be in yeshivas associated with him. He was caleld some very unpleasant names by Gedolim, who said that it is prohibited by Torah to listen to him.
In fact, you asked the question, that if you follow group X, must you consider group Y to be totally assur,?
Hence, my friend, the position you are attacking now, was something you were closely following when that contorversy took place!
הב"י בסימן קנ"ז כותב על אלה שסמכו על המהר"ם
ReplyDeleteדאח מומר אינו זוקק, משתמש שם בלשון קשה ואומר " למה לא רדפם וכרכם עד חרמה" ובנד"ד שהדברים חמורים פי כמה ודאי יש להוציאם מכלל ישראל
Eddie - you are making up stuff. Why not admit that your off the top of your head snap judgment is not accurate
ReplyDeleteWho is the "they" who added the lines about the psak?
ReplyDeleteThe second version is a forgery that was fabricated by individual or individuals who wish to discredit those that signed the original true version. The letter was a call for civility and kovod hatorah. It was never meant as a statement on the pask.
ReplyDeleteThe second version assumes that this was in fact a psak of Rav Shmuel. I thought that was denied?
ReplyDeleteNew like the New Testament?
ReplyDeleteIf these talmudim really cared about the Kovod of Reb Shmuel they should have used there time more wisely by having whoever was behind the heter retract it. They say we must listen to the psak what pask Reb Shmuel wrote a letter that he never have a heter and was not involved.
ReplyDeleteAlso why didn't Yudi Svei sign the letter? Also why is no one writing and demanding Kovod HaTorah for Shalom? I believe even the phiili talmidim have no respect for Shalom nor do they view him as a Gadol
Next question is, did you give the heter?
ReplyDeleteIt's becoming more pathetic by the day. First they forge letters, then come up with signatures, all kid stuff and diversions. We need an answer for going against the Torah, and if you can't, the final salvos are coming.
ReplyDeleteA teacher required that when students asked permission to go to the
ReplyDeletebathroom in middle of class they should differentiate the exact call of
nature by the amount of fingers showing when they raise their hand so
that the teacher would know how soon to expect them back in class. So a
child raised his hand with 2 fingers and was allowed a longer leave.
When to the teacher's surprise the child was back too soon he said
'Didn't you raise 2 fingers?' to which the student answered:
היינטיגער גדולים
The whole MUSAG of GADOL has no real basis. In Torah we are told about the authority of the SANDHEDRIN, further more is it said that in other generations we must follow the chachomim that we have.
ReplyDeleteIn the case of our GEDOLIM, there is great lack of clarity in regards to who is a GODOL. This letter implies that RSK is a GODOL MEDEORAISO and does not provide any basis.
Conslusion: EIN SOFEIK MOITZI MIDEIY VADAY and as we no the Psak i fake and we are not too sure about RSK we have to follow what we know.
I contacted one of the signatories of the letter (via email). He told me that the letter was ach v'rak a personal letter to R. Shmuel by his talmidim to say that they still feel an allegiance to him as their Rosh Yeshiva despite what is going on. It was not nor meant to be a show of support for the psak itself nor was it meant to be a Kol Koreh for the public. The public was never supposed to see it.
ReplyDeleteThe second version was added by some "biryon(im)" - his expression - after the talmidim had signed the original.
He himself (my contact) does not have a personal (public) stand on the issue and maintained that "this is for the elite Gedolim".
http://daattorah.blogspot.co.uk/2013/10/chareidi-world-continues-to-self.html
ReplyDeleteI am not saying that the RSK crowd have Daas Torah, but according to the story I cited, the RSA crowd certainly do not have it (according to RCK).
Yudi Svei did not learn in Philly Beis Medrash, he learned in Mir. He is a Kalmanovitz. Technically, he is not a Talmid of Rav Shmuel. Likewise these Talmidim are from the 70s and 80s (as am I) and have no reason to have any allegiance to Rav Shalom. We are all the same dor and some are even older than him. These are not Philly "Talmidim" these are Philly alumni and they aren't children.
ReplyDeleteIs there a way to verify that? Anyone to speak to? How can that claim be substantiated ?
ReplyDeleteWhich two?
ReplyDeleteThis was the article I am referring to:
ReplyDeletehttp://daattorah.blogspot.co.uk/2013/10/rabbi-grylaks-problematic-editorial.html
"I found it troubling because he is saying don't act based on what the
gedolim are saying. If one major rabbi calls another one a heretic or
Amalek - are the followers of the one critized supposed to remain
silent?! If the gadol you follow makes these criticisms - doesn't this
mean that you are to view the person he criticizes differently and act
differently towards him? If Rabbi Grylak is acknowledging the validity
of what the gedolim are saying - then how can he tell people not to act
on what the gedolim say? Clearly the gedolim said it because that is
what they think and they want their followers to take the same view. As
far as I know no significant rabbinic leader has said to ignore what
gedolim say - so on what authority is Rabbi Grylak saying this? On the
other hand if Rabbi Grylak feels the gedolim are wrong to speak this
way - then why doesn't he say that so? In short I find his editorial
position unacceptable."
This is what each group is saying today - ie they follow their Gedolim. Nobody is following an opponent's gadol.
why degrade the this blog?
ReplyDeletePLEASE REMOVE
2) I didn't investigate the facts but depended on a psychiatrist who must know what he is doing or else he would damage his reputation - If the psychiatrist reveals his identity only to his accomplices in slander/crime - then he can say whatever nonsense he pleases without any possible damage to his reputation.
ReplyDeleteDid you get the impression that the people who changed the nusach were doing it to undermine the kamineztky side? Or they unilaterally decided that the yeshiva should take a hard line position that the talmidim should accept the psak no matter what.
ReplyDeletethe latter
ReplyDeleteAs I wrote in previous comments, I got this directly from one of the signatories.
ReplyDeleteThere is quite a difference between Rabbanim > Baalei Batim and Rebeyim > Talmidim. We are dealing with a Rebbe > Talmid relationship not Rav > Baal haBayit. Many of the signatories (perhaps most) are not pulpit Rabbis. They have nothing personal at stake. In fact, in light of the controversy, they are taking some amount of risk by speaking out.
ReplyDeleteAs noted before the signatories were told that this was a private letter of support and that it would not be made public. They did not view that they were taking a risk.
ReplyDeleteAt least they would know the problems involved and how flimsy and fragile the heter is.
ReplyDeleteAll the more that it was not for any self-serving purpose, either.
ReplyDeleteNames as in kinuyim????
ReplyDelete1) a stinky moshol
ReplyDelete2) but true
3) stinky tartei mashma
Oy, Baruch Dayan HaEmes.......
ReplyDeleteWho was posting it?
ReplyDeleteThis is a needless criticism on some very respectable Rabbonim who are caught between a rock and a hard place.
ReplyDeleteWhy do you twist something that while misguided is noble. What leads you to conclude that this is self serving?
If you claim that it is order to demand from their bale batim, why is that negative. I think a fair minded person would conclude that is called being consistent. Meaning they do not expect of their baale batim something that they themselves don't hold to.
Very noble indeed.
i agree - please remove
ReplyDeleteMaskim.
ReplyDeleteBtw I thoroughly enjoyed your book one above seven below. ( I think I got the name right)
ReplyDelete"The original text is the first version. It was modified after it was signed to indicate that the support was also fro Rav Shmuel's psak." in plain simple English the modified version is a fake. Why not state that why call it a first version and a modified version?
ReplyDeleteHow can you have that impression if Reb Shmuel himself said in the letter to the GAVAD that the proper forum for this discussion is not in the public? Contact every single one of the signatories and they will say the same thing that this was suppose to be a private letter not for public dissemination. What hard line position are you talking about who is the one that took a unilateral position? what happened is that a kamenetsky hater wanted to disparage the Rosh Yeshiva and his talmidim end of story.
ReplyDeleteAs stated above someone took that original letter and added a whole sentence to include kol hachoilek......... in order to stoke the fires of the machlokis.
ReplyDeleteThe usual suspects when it comes to fraud and corruption in Lakewood Knopler or Shain come to mind.
ReplyDeletenot only is it fishy it stinks like dead fish. there is no updated version or second version of the letter the only thing that was hung around Lakewood this morning was the original leaked letter with a note attached stating that someone took the private letter and altered it in order to create a bigger bizayon hatorah.
ReplyDeleteBecause that is a weird conspiracy theory. Who did this? How did they get the letter?
ReplyDeleteThe reid in BMG is that Kleinman, the one who puts out Rabbi Kamenetsky's "Piskei Halacha" was the one who put together the letter and got the signatures. He then went and "modified" it, either referencing specifically the "eishes ish psak" or referencing RSK's psakim in general, in order to sell more of the "piskei halacha". The ones who signed are furious with him. They want blood!!!
ReplyDeleteHow can you have that impression if Reb Shmuel himself said in the letter to the GAVAD that the proper forum for this discussion is not in the public?
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately, it would not be the first time that he supported doing things publicly to "benefit" his point-of-view, but is opposed if publicity is used to discredit his point-of-view.
Thank you very much. Please recommend it!
ReplyDeleteSpeak to anyone of the signatories. You can pick up the phone and call anyone of them. I did. They are all saying the same thing. A clear clarification from the signatories will be forthcoming. It will explain what they signed and the blatant forgery perpetrated by someone with an anti Rav Shmuel agenda.
ReplyDeleteI think it is a good and necessary comment. It does more than 10 pages of explaining. Every explanation even with sharp words gives some credibility to the other side, saying that it has some legitimacy and needs to be answered and explained. This leaves us frustrated and hurt with the desecration of The Torah and the wicked exploitation of Tamar Epstein to destroy her life by so called friends such that who needs enemies. I could go on and on and not satisfactorily say the evil that has been and still is being done. Every aspect of it is ........I have no words. So with my moshol I think it at least somewhat removes a heavy load.
ReplyDeleteWorse things have been acceptable on this blog for the purpose of getting the truth out, so why should this be any different, as it expresses in a concise straight to the point way what many ehrlicher people feel and want to express.
Is There/If There Is a 2 PM Meeting at Rav Aron Shechter's House on Erev Rosh Chodesh Shevat 5776, January 10, 2015 ?
ReplyDeleteIf so, then it seems that the wall of those "protecting" him from himself and from being himself have finally been pushed aside, and it's almost certain he will call for the Heter to be rescinded because he has opposed such a Heter when it was supposedly given by Rav Yisroel Belsky (zol gezunt zein), and as we know RAS has little time or respect for the Halachic rulings of Rav Moshe Feinstein and his innovations since RAS has much more of a truly "Satmar mindset", and Leshitaso Rav Aron Schechter will never in a million years support such a Heter, he will be 100% aligned with the BADATZ on this matter.
So count on Rav Aron Schechter calling for the Heter to be rescinded and those who gave it to say so and recant in writing to make it clear and this the Heter will be Batul Umevutal, Ke'Afra De'ar'a, Lo Sh'ririn Velo Kayamin, with all the "hiddurim" of Bittul Chometz and Kol Nidrei and Hatoras Nedarim combined!!!
Any other result would be very surprising and shocking.
Hang in there, it's almost 2PM!!
How exactly did this letter (which was only supposed to be shown to RSK) fall into the hands of "biryonim" who sought to discredit the original signers?
ReplyDeleteSomething doesn't add up...
These people have no idea what a mess they caused
ReplyDeleteNow each one will have to go and explain why an eishes ish is Mutar to marry
Id love to hear that explanation
This letter will divide communities and klal very similar to Shabsai tzvi
It will force congregants and Talmudim to choose pro or con
Unless they retract the entire marriage
This machloikes will never end
H-ashen yeracheim
Please 1) enlarge and 2) translate
ReplyDeleteA TRUE ODOM GODOL IS "MODE AL HAEMES" .When the kaminetskys and Greenblatt cant see where they erred, then this tells me that behing the veil of blackhat, beard, long coat is nothing more than the average man. A true Godol would put yiras hashem before his reputation. WOE TO US THAT WE ARE LEADERLESS!
ReplyDeleteSo who came to them initially? Who got hold of the paper that was trusted enough to get it before it became public and then in a word processor added in the new lines?
ReplyDeleteThis is beyond bizarre.
Who was the first person to go around collecting the signatures?
Now, I finally understand why meseches Gittin I'd before kidushin. You have to know gittin before you start making kiddushin.
ReplyDeleteI have no clue, but there seems to be a comment posted by "Lakewood Yeshiva Guy" that fills in the blank. It seems to make sense although I have no idea who the person he named is.
ReplyDeleteHere is a clue and hint. 1) Velomo nikro shmo nablus, mipnei sheoso nevolo beYisrael :)
ReplyDelete2) Hakez.... ya'aseh la'achoseinu. nu...?
He's repeating incorrectly the RDE story that RSK asked him once which siman in SA are the names.
ReplyDeleteNow we're getting somewhere...
ReplyDeleteWhat happened to the post about the meeting in RAS's house? Why was it removed?
ReplyDeleteThere was a conflict between insiders as to whether it would help or hurt
ReplyDelete"THIRD VERSION: Claims the second version regarding psak is forgery to cause machlokes". Why do you write "CLAIMS"? Why don't you admit that your side also has resorted to crude forgeries and rishus in an attempt to discredit the other side? They have made a fool out of all those who signed the letter as well as out of you for posting it.
ReplyDeleteSo when you said that the forgery ws done to discredit the heter, are you chozer from that? If it was done by the guy who put out the volumes of Piskei RSK, he for sure wasn't doing it to discredit the heter.
ReplyDeleteKleiman is the guy who put out the volumes of piskei RSK (the purple books.) Have you seen those?
Why in the world would that boost sales? Farkert people would stay away.
ReplyDeleteThird version, now hanging in all shuls in Lakewood!!
ReplyDeleteI'm sure Yudi is not exactly overjoyed by what's going on here.
ReplyDeleteHelp or hurt what?
ReplyDeleteYes, it's confirmed. I spoke to a Choshove Philly Talmud for the whole story. A Rov In Lakewood.
ReplyDeleteKleinman was the main organizer of the original letter, then he added those line about the Psak to take a harder line.
Problem is, there was no Psak from R' Shmuel and now the Tamidi Phily are furious with Kleinman for making them sound like fools.
So he's blaming it on the Feldman-Miller camp.
Kleinman has overplayed his hand and now is trying to lie his way out. Nice going.
I believe that the moderator would be best equipped to answer the question of who gave him the letter before it became public.
ReplyDeleteThe letter to the Gavad was a private letter. This was a private letter as well. Why wold they send him a letter privately that was opposite to what his desire has been all along?
ReplyDeleteOh please must of them are children. They don't even have proper shtellers yet. Cut it out and get real and for that matter almost none of the undersigned are rabbonim who Pasken or even have Horoah. They are rosh Chaburah rosh a Kolel of 10 or rosh Yeshiva of places no one heard of
ReplyDeleteWhich Kleinman the mesarev ldin?
ReplyDeleteBubba Maeisis, everyone that signed knows what happened here. There is no doubt that it was forged by the likes of Knopler and Shain. The little hockeres like yourself would love to see blood so go to the Matzah Factory and ask them for some its almost Pesach there are rumors abound (oh they are under the KCL Yudel wont let in for the seder)
ReplyDeleteIn your dreams that he would give that information.
ReplyDeleteWhy wold they send him a letter privately that was opposite to what his desire has been all along?
ReplyDeleteThis was obviously not intended as a private letter by the organizers.
Let's not go in circles, please.
Also, his desire was only the criticism of his actions should be private. He had no problem encouraging all sorts of public protests and bullying.
For me this is where it gets too much.
ReplyDeleteWhat in the world is going on.
Are they so incompetent as to be unable to put out a letter. What is with all this dysfunction.
I hear that a fourth version is forthcoming which will advertise where one can by the pisskei halachot volumes
ReplyDeleteLolol
One thing is for sure Sam Kam won't die a godol, most of Torah world will view him as someone who sold his soul to the devil at the sunset of his life
Chadoshim labkorim, kein yirbu.
ReplyDeleteI heard from a bachur who told me that he called Reb Shmuel a few months ago, and Reb Shmuel told him that he is permitted to marry Tamar because of a "Heter Meah Rabbonim".
ReplyDeleteIf this is true, I would assume that when you make ליצנות of a דבר שבקדושה it comes back to haunt you.
Again, as in the last stages when Tropper was going down in flames he resorted to forging "letters of support" from various rabbis but at the end it was an outright scandal that brought him down. Here too there is scandal that has outraged the leaders of the Torah world and of the world of Halacha.
ReplyDeleteRav Shmuel Kaminetsky is "tei'era Yid" and it is shame to see him become encased in this Parsha that cannot bring anything good to Klal Yisroel.
As for the Kleinman character, just dig deeper, it is huge can of worms with all the big money behind it all!
and of course everyone or nearly everyone has forgotten how the story started and a need to find a solution - how about the Baltimore Beit Din giving a ruling about visitation which is in the best interests of the child - the real questions that need to be asked - how did we get into such a mess in the first place ?
ReplyDeleteUpon some simple analysis it would appear that letter 2 was not put out by the authors of 1 and 3.
ReplyDelete1: Look at the width of the signatures compared to the text of the letter. In 1 and 3 the signatures do not reach the end of line of the body of the letter, in 2 they take up much more width and nearly reach the end of the paper.
2: In letter 2, compare the clarity of the text of the body vs the text of the names of the signers. You can clearly see that the text of the names of the signers is blurred compared to the body of the letter. In letter 1 you do not see this effect.
It seems that someone scanned the signatures from letter 1 and typed up a new body of the letter above it to create letter 2.
Whatever your position is in this whole drama, forgery is a pretty low blow. It signifies a pretty extreme 'the means justifies the ends' type of attitude.
Third version has a comment on the bottom of the page claiming that this letter was already sent to rabbi SK, and implied that the letter was not meant for public consumption but for R SK's eyes only . oddly another comment on the bottom of the page says that they're still accepting signatures, which leads one to wonder if this letter was only for RSK eyes and it was sent already why would someone add a signature to a letter which is headed for the dustbin ? Unless the "geonei Philly" have finally resolved the age old philosophical question, if a tree falls in the forest and no one hears it did it make noise?. Or just maybe to paraphrase another another famous saying "it's a Philly thing"
ReplyDeleteAfraid to ask about the post concerning Rav Aron Schechter that was removed, although anticipating the results. .......
ReplyDeleteIts Daniel A. Kleinman.
ReplyDeleteHe wrote the sifri halacha from Rav Shmuel K.
I believe he has a shul in Brooklyn.
He's the main organizer of this letter. And I believe he's also the one running that juivinile-looking website attempting to counter the influence of this blog.
He personally added those crazy words about disagreeing w RSK is like disagreeing with the Shechina.
And now hes blaming Eidensin.
A real class act.
He is most likely wrong. But how about those who apply the Sifri, that if the Rabbis say left is right and right is left, you should still follow them!?
ReplyDeleteBatei din are loath to get involved in cases where they know their psak will not be followed. Thus, they will rule on monetary issues of a divorce, which are enforceable, (even though those issues are tied together in a bet din decision) but not on custody issues which are not enforceable in court.
ReplyDeleteIn this case, they know the ex wife will not abide by their decision, so they won't even take the case even if the ex wife nominally agrees to accept the psak. The ball is in her court to show good faith.
Interestingly, there are absolutely no claims of corruption with this bdt din, just a refusal to jget an honest impartial decision.
What do you mean a "tei'era Yid"? Isn't he a gadol? If he would just be a "tei'era Yid" all would be fine.
ReplyDeleteGevaldig
ReplyDeleteJust wondering if they would have the same impetus to sign if the issue at hand was with a great talmid chochom who was not from their" circle" ? .seems to me like kavod atzmi ani doresh.
ReplyDeleteWhat all are wondering is the degree of this allegiance here they were matir an eishes ish which is a capital crime and all the signatories highest priority is pledging allegiance! Would they stop at koreis? Well if so It's not just demanding kavod hatorah it's also saying it's not the end of the world . Proof in point, at some point they wouldn't support them , or if they would support him unconditionally oh well
Why between a rock and a hard place? What's wrong with a little honesty ? They are rabbis meant to show us the way why can't they call a spade ? Why can't they say the truth and let it lead them wherever it goes ? Did the rabbis of the previous generation play these games too? Don't think so
ReplyDeleteI am not familiar with any source that applies that idea to case where there is a disagreement between authorities. In fact, there cannot be such a source, as one cannot have blind obedience to to opposing opinions at the same time.
ReplyDeleteYes, that is a great question. (Why didn't Yudi Svei sign?) For people with even a small amount of seichel, the people absent from this document should be much more significant than the bunch of Philly guys that they got to sign.
ReplyDeleteThe trickery involved in arranging this letter of support is a good moshol to the methods used in obtaining the heter itself.
ReplyDeleteEnlighten us as to what trickery was used. Tell us which signer was duped. and if the trickery that was used for the letter was the same as for the Heter I must say it must be a very solid heter. why not just say I hate the Kamenetskys and their supporters and there is nothing they can do that I will agree with?
ReplyDeleteIt actually is not such a great question the obvious answer is that this is only a partial list of the names. But to you that is a bit difficult to comprehend since it wouldn't fit your story of hate and jealousy.
ReplyDeleteRight. . .a partial list. . .you mean that R Malkiel and R Chaim Kanievsky and R Moshe Shternbuch were all on the original list of people who were moche but they couldn't fit them on because they needed to make room for a bunch of mostly second-tier Philly boys. So when is the second list coming out?
ReplyDeleteWe once discussed that, and that it applies to the Sanhedrin.
ReplyDeleteNo need to say all that. Just ask all those that refused to sign this piece of rag. Those are reputable people, worthwhile to listen to them. The handwriting is on the wall. Besides, it is sidetracking from the main dish.
ReplyDeleteIs he e Daistorah. Com or elbomasheltorah.com. com?
ReplyDeleteAlso, was was Reb Shmuel's letter to the Eidah HaChareidis BEFORE their letter, or afterwards?
afterwards - the next day
ReplyDeleteName one person who refused. you don't have anyone. what a surprise Ehud Barak making up stories again to fulfill his Kamenetsky hatred obsession.
ReplyDeleteKnoplher and Shain were "allegedly" busy forging the letter so they didn't have time to insert R Malkiel and R Chaim Kanievsky and R Moshe Shternbuch's signature like they have "allegedly" done in the past.
ReplyDeleteI'm not so quick to judge. I can't demand something when I myself and not sure what I would do in that situation.
ReplyDeleteGuess it is then not as telling as if they would publish their letter *despite* his request. ....
ReplyDeleteCalm down my friend. The letter was posted right here on this blog by Rabbi Doniel Eidensohn, without the name because the approachee chose to remain BEILUM SHEM ta'amo venimuko imo, just like a whole host of other ilonei ravrava that disclosed the same without their name. No one needs to make up stories, too much going around as it is. The only fulfillment here is "sof ganav letliya". You keep on reprinting Posters minim miminim shoinim veyoshon mipnei chodosh totsiu. You lost the battle and lost the war running around in denial. Same with the sanctions, denials, confirmations, Posters, Supporters, Gedoilim, in a wild confusion. Time to fess up, else, the day after is around the corner.
ReplyDeleteKnow of any talmidim who oppose this heter strophy? Can help with names?
ReplyDeleteHotinach when one knows the difference bein yemino lismolo. In any case, the to'oh bidvar mishna is after wrongfully applying the heter and then mistakenly applying mekach taus instead of a Get. When he was made aware of that, he phonfed around sovro vekibla al tnay. And that's a figment of his imagination, no such thing as Tnay.
ReplyDeleteWell now that the other one is hanging in shuls I guess your wishful thinking has fallen by the wayside. Wipe the foam from your rabid mouth and wait for the next rumor to see if you can jump on that one and you can live happily ever after.
ReplyDeleteHave you been asleep? Are you following the thread? It appears not.
ReplyDeleteSeparately, do you actually consider forgery and bait-and-switch, as was done in the support letter, to be "solid?" Weird.
High time for a new approach!
ReplyDeleteTime to focus on the core group of wealthy and powerful Balebatim that are enabling and empowering the resisting rabbis from giving in to what even a Mesivta Bochur can see is a big Avla, the misuse of a Heter to allow a married woman to re-marry a second husband without obtaining a Get from her first and real husband, in effect permitting bigamy by Jewish women, something Rav Moshe Feinstein never intended as a "fad" as it has now become according to the allegations against Rabbis Greenblatt, Fuerst, Kaminetsky and Rackman.
Knocking your head against the stonewalling by the rabbis concerned is becoming an exercise in futility and it is therefore high time to focus on the ones who donate to these rabbis and are paying the piper/s.
There is now a need to name the names of the wealthy "masters of the universe" just as is being done for the rabbis names that are now no longer secrets, who as long as they are free they will continue to enable and empower them by shelling out big donations to the rabbis who are only giving their final "letters" and "signatures"!
These Balebatim are more important to the rabbis giving the Heterim to remarry without a Get, than all the serious Macha'as against them that are coming mostly out of Israel's Rabbanim.
Absolutely not. They never learn enough of the sugyas to realize anything.
ReplyDelete