Wednesday, July 29, 2015

Rav Pinchus Rabinowitz: Forced Get produced through Quebec's Divorce Law

Update Tuesday August 4 - added description of rabbis who signed the psak

Important update Thursday July 30:  I just received a message from Rav Chaim Zev Malinowitz - a prominent rav and posek who is also a  good friend of Rav Kaufman - that this post is moot. That in fact Rav Kaufman has not written a get in this case and is not planning on writing a get for this woman without the agreement of the Rabbonim of Montreal except  if the 2 parties come to Monsey, he will be mesader the get if he is convinced that they are both willing and no kefiyah exists (which as of now is a problem). The following is an excerpt from what he sent me after he spoke with Rav Kaufman about this matter. He gave me permission to quote him.

 The whole story meetzeedoh as written  is basically loh hayya v'lo nivra.

Yes, he agreed to come to Montreal to be mesader a get IF the Rabbonim there are ok with him doing so  ,and if there is no question of kefiyah. 

They were not ok with it, and then he found out that there was a shayloh of kefiyah.
end of story meetzeedoh 

RSZK has enemies., cause he's a loh sagooroo mipnei ish kind of guy.

You were used. 

Look carefully at all your documents--he did nothing but have a hava amina to go be mesader cause he was asked to by the wife's to'ayn.

Nothing else happened meetzeedoh.

He stands ready to be mesader a get IF

a)the parties come to Monsey, he will not go to Montreal (because the rabbonim there object to his coming there and being mesader a get)

b)if all the lawyers come, if she undoes what she did there (causing a kefiyah shayloh) and he is satisfied that no other kefiyah exists .
===========================================

Prominent Rabbonim  Invalidate a Get Kfiyah arranged  By Bais Horaah  of Rav Chaim Flohr and  Rav Shloma Zalman Kaufman 

Bais Horaah of Flohrs Kollel in Monsey have utilized the Get Law of Quebec to force a Get! In Schwimmer / Kohn matter they came into the picture when no other Rav in Canada would preside over such a forced Get.

Famous Rabbonim on both sides of the Atlantic are distressed about this get being advanced by Rav Chaim Flohr and Rabbi Kaufman  of Bais Horaah inc. , and are shocked at this of the Bais Din power despite the man’s side never being called to their Bais Din and never having signed a Shtar Berorin / or even presented their side in a Bais din at all! And plus the damage and the ramifications that will result to the orthodox public.

See the following documents:








בס"ד
אלו הם שמות הרבנים החותמים
הרה"ג הר"ר שמואל אליעזר שטערן שליט"א
חבר בד"ץ דמרן הגר"ש וואזנער זצ"ל
ראש ישיבת חוג חת"ס
רב מערב בני ברק

הרה"ג הר"ר שריאל רוזנברג שליט"א
ראש בית דין בני ברק
רב שכונת רמת דוד

הרה"ג הר"ר משה שאול קליין שליט"א
דומ"ץ בביד"ץ דמרן הגר"ש וואזנער זצ"ל
ורב שכונת "אור החיים" - בני ברק

הרה"ג הר"ר חיים מאיר וואזנער שליט"א
ממלא מקומו וגאב"ד בית דין דמרן הגר"ש וואזנער זצ"ל

הרה"ג הר"ר יעקב מאיר שטערן שליט"א
מו"צ בבי"ד דמרן הגר"ש וואזנער
וחבר הבד"ץ דקרית וויזניץ - בני ברק


MenachemZecharya Zilber Freiman Rov Hisachdus HArabonim

·        I have been asked by Rav Chaim Flohr Kolel Head of Monsey New York and Rav Yonoson Binyomin Weiss of Montreal to state my opinion on the matter of a GHET that must be given in Montreal based on the implementation of the “Quebec  Get Law “as to whether  the GHET to be given  is valid, or invalid or Void.
·        Having read the Get law and also the personal demands presented by the woman in this case, and the ruling of the judge in this matter it is apparent that it is because of this particular case that I have been asked as to whether such a get is valid. 
·        I hereby declare that the absolute truth is that according to the torah law this get would be Passul and Batul and Void. And should the woman marry with this Get she would be required to Leave both men and applicable all the Mishnah laws pertaining a woman who marries a forbidden one.
·        I have not come to explain in great detail  the Halacha so my words will be limited to clarify that
In this  particular case one cannot rely on even  those  Poskim that are lenient  on certain  specific force in  certain situations  and to my knowledge in this case  there  does not exist any  Posek to allow force.
·     The Get law of Quebec  the root and aim of the law is that should the Husband fail to remove all obstacles which prevent her from remarrying  as according to the torah (by not giving a Get) Then  Quebec Court will prevent the husband from entering any new claims  or responding to both money matters and claims presented by the woman according to the Quebec laws and also his rights to his children both custody and visitation and on all the matters the Judge will now rule in favor of the woman.
·     Therefore it is simple and clear that in this case will not apply even the heter of the lenient one that when the force is only on other  matters and the husband will by giving a get save himself from on those matters (and only if it amounts the same as she would receive according to normal din torah)then it might  not be considered forced  But in this case it is not so at all because it is clear in the Quebec Get Law  and the Court ruling that the husband is told that he will lose both all money and all visitation claims Should he refuse to give a Get and the word Get is mentioned plainly and openly ,he is warned   that without providing a Get  he will be judged in a way that his responses will not be heard or considered ! But only if he gives a get will he receive a fair hearing in the Quebec Court of nations only then will the defendant be allowed respond to claims that are demanded of him.

Neither can it be said that if the get was written in this forced manner Even if the husband declared that he is giving it voluntarily and annulled all statements of duress and any other matters that would invalidate the get  Even the most lenient of all opinions will not rely on this Since according to this law the husband must attest to the court that he has removed everything that will prevent her from remarrying and unless he does this he will be judged exparte and he will lose all his rights of defense
And should he declare to the bais din that he does not wish to give a get of his free will of course the Bais din will not be misader the get, and he now won’t be able to declare before the courts that he removed all obstacles to his wife’s remarriage  and so he will he will be judged in a manner that he will lose his money and visitation and all  rights to his children

In reference to the get they wish to arrange in Montreal for a lady from a prominent family who went to the courts and claimed from the husband more money then the Halacha allows.
Woe to the eyes that see this and woe to hears that hear this she is defying Toras Moshe and furthermore the Judge has ruled that unless the husband presents to the court by August 21 that he removed every obstacle that prevents his wife from remarriage i.e. giving a kosher Get She will be able to even add to her claims and his responses without out the husband being allowed to be there she will receive everything she wants and the husband will lose all rights to defend himself !
There are two Forced matters on this get
 1. That no husband  agrees to give a get as long  when the woman is making claims which cannot be gotten with Torah law for he knows that the woman will drop those claims and return him his money  in order to receive the get (although even when she withdraws the claim and a get is given we still would judge if this get is kosher because force was  first used )
2. That he is being forced through the Arkous to lose even the rights to answer and what he could save from her claims according to the arkous court laws therefore he is forced to give a Get !Since this  is something that one cannot tolerate and the husband has already stated for many people that he cannot give a Get of his free will until she withdraws the whole case from the court and then he will give he a kosher  get.
This means that aside from the defying Toras Moshe to go o be judged in arkous and asides from the fact she is making claims of sums that do not deserve And the Arkous is telling the Husband that if he doesn’t give her Get it is likely that she will then win all her demands and she can take much more than if he had given a Get And I wonder at the rabbonim of the city that have silenced their voices for the ramifications of this matter who can fathom?
In light of all the aforementioned I is clears that should he give a get prior to her removal of all claims in the Arkaous this Get would be Batul and the rule will be that she must leave both husbands …and should the woman remove all claims and make peace with her husband through peacemakers or Bais din may all the good blessings come to her . 

Menachem  Zecharyah Silber
Avbd Freiman          

Yitzchok Eizik Menachem  Eichenstein
 AvBD Galanta

Yehuda meshulam Dov  Polatchuk
Avbd Meged yehuda  Chavar habdatz


בס"ד
בירור דברים בדין גט מעושה ע"י חוק גירושין של מדינת קיובעק
תנן בגיטין [פ"ח ע"ב] גט מעושה בישראל כשר, ובעובדי כוכבים פסול. ופירש הרשב"ם [ב"ב מ"ח ע"א] גט המעושה, שכופין אותו לבעל להוציא, אם בישראל הוא כשר שכפוהו ישראל וכגון דאמר רוצה אני: בעכו"ם פסול, ואע"ג דאמר רוצה אני וכו'.
ובסוף המשנה קתני ובעכו"ם חובטין אותו ואומרין לו עשה מה שישראל אומר לך ופירשב"ם ובעכו"ם, אם אנו רוצים לכופו על ידי עכו"ם ויהיה הגט כשר מלמדים אנו לעכו"ם שיאמרו לו עשה מה שישראל אומר לך, דהשתא נמי מצוה לשמוע דברי חכמים עכ"ל. ועי' בתוס' ב"ב מ"ח ע"א ד"ה גט בסו"ד וז"ל: והא דאמר בגיטין [דף פ"ח ע"ב] לפניהם ולא לפני עכו"ם כיון שהעישוי על פי דייני ישראל לאו היינו לפני עכו"ם, דלפני עכו"ם היינו כשהעישוי נעשה על פי דייני עכו"ם עכ"ל.
ביאור הדברים דאף שהגט צריך להיכתב ולהינתן מרצון הבעל, ולכן גט מעושה פסול שהבעל לא גירש מרצונו, מכל מקום באופן שכופין אותו לגרש למדין מהמשנה בערכין [כ"א ע"א] דכופין אותו עד שיאמר רוצה אני, וכ"ה ברמב"ם פ"ב מהלכות גירושין הלכה כ': מי שהדין נותן שכופין אותו לגרש את אשתו ולא רצה לגרש, בית דין וכו' וכו', מכין אותו עד שיאמר רוצה אני, ויכתוב הגט והוא גט כשר.
וכתב עוד הרמב"ם: ולמה לא בטל גט זה שהרי הוא אנוס בין ביד גויים בין ביד ישראל, שאין אומרין אנוס אלא למי שנלחץ ונדחק לעשות דבר שאינו מחויב בו מן התורה לעשותו, כגון מי שהוכה עד שמכר או נתן, אבל מי שתקפו יצרו הרע לבטל מצוה או לעשות עבירה, והוכה עד שעשה דבר שחייב לעשותו וכו', אין זה אנוס ממנו, אלא הוא אנס עצמו בדעתו הרעה. לפיכך, זה שאינו רוצה לגרש מאחר שהוא רוצה להיות מישראל, רוצה הוא לעשות כל המצוות ולהתרחק מן העבירות, ויצרו הוא שתקפו, וכיון שהוכה עד שתשש יצרו ואמר רוצה אני כבר גירש לרצונו עכ"ל.
ולענין הלכה כתב בשו"ע אם אנסוהו ישראל שלא כדין פסול, ובבית שמואל כתב לפרש וז"ל: משמע לכאורה דפסול מדרבנן, וליתא אלא אפילו מדאורייתא פסול כמו שכתבו ברש"י והר"ן ובטור וכן משמע בסעיף ז', וכן אם אנסוהו עכו"ם כדין הגט בטל וכו' עכ"ד ר"ל שבסעיף ז' כתב המחבר אנסוהו ישראל לגרש שלא כדין ואמר רוצה אני, וגם ביטל המודעא או לא מסרה [ר"ל המודעא] פסול, ואעפ"כ פסלה מן הכהונה עכ"ל המחבר, ומדכתב לרבותא שפסלה מן הכהונה שמע מינה דמן הדין הגט בטל מדאורייתא, ורק משום ריח הגט [שהוא חומרא בעלמא] פסלה מן הכהונה, וכ"כ להלכה הט"ז בסק"ט ובערוה"ש סעיף ג'.
ובאנסוהו עכו"ם כתב בשו"ע סעיף ח: אנסוהו כותים לגרש, אם הוא חייב לגרשה מן הדין פסול, ואעפ"כ פסלה מהכהונה, ואם לא היה חייב לגרשה מן הדין אפילו ריח גט אין בו ולא נפסלה מהכהונה, והרמ"א הוסיף על זה וז"ל: ואפילו אם קבל מעות על נתינת הגט לא אמרינן משום זה נתרצה עכ"ד.
הרי מבואר דפסולו של גט מעושה ע"י נכרים אף שיש פסק דין שחייב בכפייה לא חלה הדין של ככ"ה על העישוי של נכרים, ולכן הגט בטל מן התורה.
ובאותו מקרה אם נעשתה הכפייה על ידי עובד כוכבים [והבי"ד של ישראל לא ביקשו מהנכרים שיכופו אותו] הגט פסול אף שבאמת היה הבעל חייב לגרש את אשתו, מכל מקום כיון שלא נעשה על ידי בית דין של ישראל אין הגט מועיל להתיר את האשה, אפילו אם אמר הבעל רוצה אני כדרך שהוא עושה ע"י כפיית בית דין.


ב
מהו העישוי שנחשב לאונס לא רק שחבטוהו והכוהו על כך כדקתני להדיא במשנה אלא גם כשאנסוהו בממון כגון שגזלו ממנו מעותיו ואינם רוצים להחזיר לו אלא אם כן יגרש את אשתו כ"כ הרשב"א בתשובותיו ח"ד סי' מ' והובא בב"י סי' קל"ד ומקורו מגמ' ב"ב מ' ע"ב במעשה דפרדיסא, ובשו"ת ה"ר בצלאל אשכנזי סי' ט"ז כתב להוכיח כן מכל הראשונים שכתבו במכירה שאונס ממון הוי אונס והוא הדין בגט ע"ש.
אשר לפ"ז כשהאשה הולכת לערכאות ותובעת ממון שלא כדין ובגלל זה נותן הבעל גט לאשתו הוי גט מעושה כדכתב בשו"ת שבט הלוי בחלק ה' סימן ר"י בסוף תשובתו בזה"ל: באופן שחשש גט מעושה במקומו עומד כיון שהוא כפיית ממון ע"י אחרים, וכבר יצאה הלכה לכלל ישראל שאונס ממון נקרא ג"כ אונס כמבואר שם באה"ע וחו"מ ובתשובת מהר"ב אשכנזי סימן ט"ז, ומהרי"ק סימן ס"ג ובמכתב אליהו סוף פרק י"ט ובשאר הרבה פוסקים, ואין עיצה אלא שימחלו לו הקנס, ושהיא תכתוב כן לערכאות, וכשהוא חפשי מזה לפעול אצלו על הגט ברצון עכ"ד.
ונראה דבכה"ג שערכאות מחייבים ממון שלא כדין הגט פסול אפילו במקום שיש פסק דין של כפייה, דמאחר שתובעים ממון שלא כדין הרי סיבת הדבר שנותן הגט הוא משום שאינו רוצה שיגנבו ממנו ממון, ומאחר שזה הכפייה הוא שלא כדין דאסור לישראל לגזול ממון ע"י ערכאות דהוי מסירה וגזילה, ועוד בכה"ג שגם אחרי נתינת הגט מונעים ממנו איזה זכות שלא כדין הרי באופן זה לא חייב ליתן גט והכפייה הוא שלא כדת שהרי הוא מפסיד שלא כדין בגלל נתינת הגט, ועוד מאחר שכופין שלא כדין הרי בממילא באופן זה בטלה הדין של כפייה והוי גט מעושה.
ואף עישוי של ישראל הוא ע"י שכופין אותו בגופו כלשונו של הרמב"ם הנ"ל "וכיון שהוכה עד שתשש יצרו ואמר רוצה אני כבר גירש לרצונו" אבל לא כן הוא כשאנסוהו בממון שאין אמירת רוצה אני יוצאת מעמקי הלב כיון שלא תשש יצרו, רק אנוס הוא באמירת רוצה אני כדי שלא יגזלו ממנו, ועוד מאחר שאין זה הדרך לכפייה הרי נעשה הכפייה באיסור, והוי כמו אנסוהו שלא כדין, ועוד אפילו אם העישוי הוא רק על דברים המגיעים לה על פי הלכה, אבל מאחר שחוק גירושין הוא שהיא יכולה לתבוע, ולהבעל אין זכות טענה - לטעון כנגדה בודאי יש בה משום חמס. ובאמת נראה שיש לדון /שבאופן שיפסיד הבעל יותר בערכאות מכפי דיני תורה הן בענין ממון הן בענין ביקורי ילדים והוא אינו רוצה ליתן גט עד שיסודר ביניהם מקודם באיזה אופן שיהי', הרי בזה יש לו זכות לעכב הגט עכ"פ עד שתלך לדין תורה, ואף היה הבעל מאלו שכופין, וכן פסקו הבית דין מכל מקום למה לא יהיה לו הזכות לעכב הגט עד שגם היא תעשה כדין תורה, והסברא נותנת שעד שתציית היא לדין תורה הרי הוא פטור מליתן הגט, דמעולם לא נתחייב בנתינת הגט אם זה גורם לו פסידא שלא כדין, ופשוט.

ומכל שכן בנדון דידן דמעולם לא תבעה אותו לדין תורה - שהרי לא שלחה אליו הזמנה לדין תורה, והיא שהתחילה בערכאות, ואף אם התירו לה ג' רבנים בעל פה הרי אין בכחם להפקיר ממונו והיא הלכה לתבוע תביעות שלא כדין, ואין כאן היתר ערכאות רק איסור גזילה ומסירה ועל ידי גלגול נתגלגל עוד איסור של איסור אשת איש שמחמת זה יהיה הבעל מוכרח ליתן לה גט כשר עפ"י ערכאות דעפ"י הלכה הרי זה גט מעושה ומה שיש כאן איסור הליכה לערכאות וחילול השם באופן מבהיל משתמשים בחוק גירושין לאיסור ממה נפשך אם לא יתן גט יהי' איסור גניבה ואם כן יתן גט יהי' גט מעושה, ועי"ז אחרים יראו ונמצא שהתירא דערכאות הוא מתלמידיו של ירבעם בן נבט ועל כן עליהם לצאת מיד ולהתוודות שנכשלו במכשול גדול ופרצו בזה לאחרים חומות קדושת ישראל, ואולי כל זה נעשה בעצת אנשים שלא ידעו בטיב הלכה ועכשיו שיראו שהלכו בדרך עקלקלות ישובו מדרכם וטוב להם, וכדברי רבינו יונה בשערי תשובה בשער הרביעי וסר עונו ברוב גודל כשרון המעשה שהוא בהיפך מן המעשה אשר גואל ואשר חטא בו, ולכן עליהם להקשיב לגדולי המורים ולהפסיק מלשמוע לאנשים המשיאים אותם עצות מתוחכמות שאין רוח חכמים נוחה הימנו.

46 comments:

  1. Canada has a national Get Law that is worse and far more strict than New York's Get Law. (It was initially modeled on New York's law but it added more teeth making it mandatory the Get be given.) Numerous poskim have ruled that a wife utilizing or invoking the Canadian Get Law during a Gittin or secular divorce proceeding in Canada causes the subsequent Get to be invalid and halachicly a Get Me'usa.

    ReplyDelete
  2. It seems poshut that it's a get meusah. I don't even begin to understand the other tzad.

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  3. Rabbi - would this mean that all Quebec gittin, including those from the past, where there was a court proceeding are either posul or need to be looked into? Wow that could be a huge problem.

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  4. The issue is with all Canadian gittin, not just Quebec, as the law is a national one. I would tend to think it becomes an issue only if the wife invokes the law in court. But the Get should be kosher if the wife never invokes the Get Law in secular court.

    Obviously in the court case being discussed above in this thread the wife invoked the Get Law in court and thus invalidated any subsequent Get she may have received.

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  5. Why/how does Rabbi Shlomo Z.Kaufman tread where all Yirei Shomayim fear to tread? Why does Rabbi Flohr support him BLINDLY?
    What business doe he have traveling to Canada?
    What oversight if any exists on the Kaufman/Flohr Bais din ?
    Which Community in Monsey (if any?) is supporting his position?
    How did he come to establish a Bais din ?What legitimacy does it have?
    What are his credentials ? How did Rav Chaim go from Resh Kolel to Dayan ? Where is the Shimush for this Bais Din?
    WHY is everyone looking the other way?\HOW can we get this this activist pro woman's lib ORA/ etc.activity to LEAVE our community and Shutter up?

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  6. Thanks Moe, but I would like to know first about Quebec and then I'll think about the rest of Canada, so I reask - Rabbi - would this mean that all Quebec gittin, including those from the past, where there was a court proceeding are either posul or need to be looked into? Wow that could be a huge problem.

    Also, I don't know Canadian law, but in NYC there is a removal of barriers to remarriage requirement automatically. Which means that plaintiff, wife or husband has to ensure that all barriers from remarriage have been removed before the Court grants a divorce. Is there such a requirement in Quebec and what impact does that have?

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  7. Can a couple opt out of the canadian get law via a pre nup disavowing the canadian law? That might be a way out of it, halachically, if the canadian courts will recognize such a pre nup.

    By the way, this law would apply to americans or other foreigners, if one side files in canada.

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  8. A better way to opt out would be to get married only via halachic kiddushin Kdas Moshe V’Yisroel and not apply for a civil marriage license. The couple would then not be considered married under civil law and there would be no civil divorce.

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  9. The rabbi can also address your question, but my previous response would be equally applicable in NY, Quebec, or elsewhere in Canada and other places that have such laws. Namely, it only becomes an issue of a Get Me'usa if the wife raises the law in court. If the wife does not tell the court she did not receive a Get, the court will not penalize the husband. The court only inserts itself in the Get issue if the wife raises the Get issue in secular court. Otherwise the court won't even know whether or not a Get was given.

    The court does not, on its own initiative, make special inquires in divorces where the couple is Jewish about religious divorce issues. The Canadian law specifically says it only becomes an issue if one of the divorcing parties raise it as an issue in court.

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  10. In Canada this Eitzah will not help . Common law marriage

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  11. Not in most states in US. A religious ceremony without a license is a valid marriage in most states. Not getting a divorce could lead to problems even years later, when one side decides its financially profitable to get a civil divorce. (Even if both parties remarry with children, a years later divorce may very well be financially advantageous.)

    2. Being married has legal advantages, such as tax benefits, health and other insurance, pension advantages, inheritance benefits, numerous others. Don't overlook, especially in cases of good marriages. And of course, the wife (usually) has advantages in a divorce.)

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  12. In NY, the plaintiff has to submit a barriers restatement and I believe the defendant needs to state that all barriers have been removed. Without the statement from the plaintiff, the Court would likely not sign off on the divorce. Assuming that we all agree that a husband may not perjure himself, when the husband is a plaintiff he needs to sign that statement.

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  13. Canadian law doesn't recognize common law marriage, as a matter of law, and such couples cannot get civilly divorced as the marriage is legally unrecognized.

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  14. The vast majority of US States do not recognize the concept of common-law marriages.

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  15. In new york, most attorneys will refuse to represent a husband unless the get is done before or shortly after a filing for a contested divorce. The attorney does not want to get involved in get issues.

    Thus, many gitten in NYS have suhc issues.

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  16. This solution may not work as a overall solution for the community. Many times they need to be married under civil for various secular purposes.


    There is also may be a possible aspect of chilul Hashem, with Jewish "unwed" mothers giving birth to multiple children.

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  17. What is "suhc" issues?

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  18. The barriers statement says he removed any barriers within his control. If in his heart he doesn't want to get divorced or give a Get, there are no barriers within his control that he can remove. And this signing that statement is true.

    Furthermore, if he doesn't sign that statement the court will only simply not grant a divorce. In order for the court to penalize the husband monetarily for not giving a Get, the wife would have to request such action stating in court that her lack of a Get is causing her future financial difficulties that should be remedied by her being awarded greater assets and money from the marital assets than otherwise. If she doesn't make such a petition the court won't award her higher property awards from the marital assets.

    So the Get Me'usa would come into play if she petitioned the court to take into account her lack of a Get.

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  19. Secular society has accepted as normal for "unwed mothers" to have children. Society is long past Dan Quayle and Murphy Brown.

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  20. What you are referring to in regards to the NY barriers statement, is the first New York Get Law, from circa 1984 or so. That law was never a problem in causing a potential Get Me'usa. It was preapproved by the gedolim, prior to the legislature passing it into law, as being halachicly sound and compatible. All it does is it merely prevents a husband from getting a secular divorce if he hasn't given a Get. It does not penalize him financially in asset distribution or in any other way, even if he does not give a Get.



    The halachic problems are with New York's second Get Law, from circa 1992 or so. Invoking that one by the wife does cause financial losses to the husband in the courts distribution of marital assets, if he declines to give a Get. And the wife invoking that law will cause the Get to be a Get Me'usa.

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  21. Religious ceremony without license is a full fledged wedding, not common law.

    New york almost doesn't have alimony / spousat support, for many years. Only applies in very limited, specialized cases. Just make sure it never appears in a prenup.

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  22. Here is a brand newly decided court case from this monthy (July 2015) in New York regarding this exact issue.

    http://www.artleonardobservations.com/ny-court-dismisses-divorce-petition-where-religious-marriage-was-performed-without-a-license-ten-years-earlier/

    i>NY Court Dismisses Divorce Petition Where Religious Marriage was Performed Without a License Ten Years Earlier

    Posted on: July 10th, 2015 by Art Leonard No Comments

    In what may have been the first New York court opinion to cite Obergefell v. Hodges, a Manhattan trial judge ruled on July 2 that a purported marriage between an Orthodox Jewish woman and a man was invalid, even though the parties lived together for ten years after a rabbi performed a marriage ceremony for them without a marriage license. Devorah H. v. Steven S., 2015 N.Y. Slip Op. 25228 (Sup. Ct., N.Y. Co.).

    The parties never obtained a marriage license. They were living together with their young children from prior marriages in a tiny apartment, and sought help from their rabbi in finding more suitable housing when a complaint by the woman’s ex-husband to the Administration for Children’s Services caused alarm. The rabbi found them a larger apartment and suggested they should marry before moving. He then officiated an abbreviated religious marriage ceremony for them on the spot, partially completing a standard form certificate (which he didn’t sign) and urging them to go to City Hall and get a license. They didn’t follow up, however.



    ...


    NOTE TO RDE: This newly issued court decision is hugely interesting to many discussions on this blog. You may wish to make a new post from the webpage I linked.

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  23. @Moe - please write a guest post on this

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  24. fedupwithcorruptrabbisJuly 30, 2015 at 4:11 PM

    these very same rabbis who oppose the GET, have permitted coercion before. They all have blood on their hands. They oppose it here because of MONEY!

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  25. What does "he's a loh sagooroo mipnei ish kind of guy" mean?

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  26. Kolel zircon menachemJuly 30, 2015 at 8:49 PM

    Kuafman Is known in the velt as soogoro mpney Eisha type of guy, and there is one more thing you should know learning is something you earn brains is something you are born with either you have it or not however Kuafman does not have it,

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  27. IMHO, the attempt at damage control by R' Kaufman rings hollow.

    Even if the get wasn't actually yet given, RK was willing to travel to
    Montreal to arrange a Get that obviously nobody in town was willing to touch (because everybody knows that it's "meuseh").

    "Yes,
    he agreed to come to Montreal to be mesader a get IF the
    Rabbonim there are ok with him doing so, and if there is no
    question of kefiyah. - They were not ok with it, and then he found out that there was a shayloh of kefiyah".

    NO. RK wrote a letter that he was coming to town. Period. No questions asked if the local rabbonim minded his meddling in their turf.

    Oh, he just found out that the rabbonim were not OK with it. What was he thinking when he wrote the letter? That there is no beis din in Montreal, and it's a mitzvah to help a fake agunah?

    The husband, who needs to be the one giving the Get, didn't ask RK to come down to to arrange a Get. If

    everything was so kosher about the Get, then they would have been able
    to have it done by local rabbonim, and they wouldn't need to import some
    carpetbagger beis din to do it. So the mere fact that he's being asked
    to come to town, when a standing beis din exists, should set off a lot
    of alarms.

    And of course, RK's letter then gets attached to a letter from the lawyer with a veiled threat that the husband better be there and he should give the Get freely and voluntarily.

    "You were used. Look
    carefully at all your documents--he did nothing but have a
    hava amina to go be mesader cause he was asked to by the
    wife's to'ayn".

    NO. RK was manipulated and used by the wife, to create pressure on the husband. The wife probably needed this to be set up in a way that she can prove that the husband didn't show up, and then he can be shown to be in contempt of beis din. RK's was willingness to travel there, unasked by the husband or local rabbonim indicates that he allowed himself to be used as a pawn in this battle.

    Kudos to R' Eidensohn who put light to this issue, and gave this case publicity.
    Rats like to operate in the shadows. If you shine light on them, they scamper away.

    Finally, I note, that even of the Get hasn't yet been given, the husband is still facing an August 21 deadline, imposed by the judge. That sounds to me like "kefiyah".

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  28. With all due respect, the update does not compute.


    1) Why was he willing to go to Montreal? Why was he asked to go to Montreal? Does Montreal lack serious and capable rabbonim who can be mesader a get? Furthermore, should R. Kaufaman not have verified the position of the Montreal rabbonim prior to agreeing to travel over 300 miles to be mesader a get?


    2) Why would he invite the parties and their lawyers to come to Monsey? Why would he even think that it would be worthwhile for them to come to Monsey?


    3) What was R. Kaufman's relationship with Mendel Epstein? How many "siruvim" did Kaufman issue on behalf on Mendel Epstein?

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  29. If anything I wrote above is incorrect, I invite Rabbi Malinowitz or Rabbi Kaufman to set the record straight, for the benefit of the readership here.

    To think that the message from RK posted above will suffice, is an insult to the readers intelligence.

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  30. 2) Why would he invite the parties and their lawyers to come to Monsey?
    Why would he even think that it would be worthwhile for them to come to
    Monsey?

    I don't think that he expects them to come down to Monsey. It's a way for him to save face after he was called out by the rabbonim for agreeing to intrude into Montreal to arrange a sham Get.

    If all his conditions to arrange the Get in Monsey are fulfilled, then there's no need to come down to Monsey. Under those terms, the Get can easily be done in Montreal.

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  31. Its well known R. Kaufman had much to do with Epstein !


    He Changed positions on this Get only AFTER This Blog disclosed his plans ,So now he sends a Friend to say he has a Change of heart!
    I wont believe this hearsay.
    Until I see a Letter on r.Shlomo z. Kaufman's stationary signed by himself ..
    How about Rabbi Chaim Flohr doesn't He also have a Say in the matter?!!!!....!!

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  32. Rav Malinowitz responded to this comment as noted. It seem clear that Rav Malinowtiz is saying that Rav Kaufman was not and is not prepared to write a get that the Rabbonim will not approve. At this point the burden of proof is on those who have attacked Rav Kaufman.

    MHO, the attempt at damage control by R' Kaufman rings hollow.

    Even if the get wasn't actually yet given, RK was willing to travel to Montreal to arrange a Get that obviously nobody in town was willing to touch (because everybody knows that it's "meuseh").

    (R.M. responded - the Dayan was asked to come.He said-if the Rabbonim are maskim.What’s the problem.?)

    "Yes, he agreed to come to Montreal to be mesader a get IF the Rabbonim there are ok with him doing so, and if there is no question of kefiyah.

    - They were not ok with it, and then he found out that there was a shayloh of kefiyah".

    NO. RK wrote a letter that he was coming to town. Period. No questions asked if the local rabbonim minded his meddling in their turf.
    (R.M. responded:- untrue)

    Oh, he just found out that the rabbonim were not OK with it. What was he thinking when he wrote the letter? That there is no beis din in Montreal, and it's a mitzvah to help a fake agunah?

    (R.M. responded - I have nothing to add)

    The husband, who needs to be the one giving the Get, didn't ask RK to come down to to arrange a Get. If everything was so kosher about the
    Get, then they would have been able to have it done by local rabbonim, and they wouldn't need to import some carpetbagger beis din to do it. So the mere fact that he's being asked to come to town, when a standing beis din exists, should set off a lot of alarms.

    (R.M. responded - it set off enough alarms that he said-if the Rabbonim are ok with it, and if I am satisfied that there is no eesuiy)

    And of course, RK's letter then gets attached to a letter from the lawyer with a veiled threat that the husband better be there and he should give the Get freely and voluntarily.

    "You were used. Look carefully at all your documents--he did nothing but have a hava amina to go be mesader cause he was asked to by the wife's
    to'ayn".

    NO. RK was manipulated and used by the wife, to create pressure on the husband. The wife probably needed this to be set up in a way that she can prove that the husband didn't show up, and then he can be shown to be in contempt of beis din. RK's was willingness to travel there, unasked by the husband or local rabbonim indicates that he allowed
    himself to be used as a pawn in this battle.

    Kudos to R' Eidensohn who put light to this issue, and gave this case publicity. Rats like to operate in the shadows. If you shine light on them, they scamper away.

    Finally, I note, that even of the Get hasn't yet been given, the husband is still facing an August 21 deadline, imposed by the judge. That sounds
    to me like "kefiyah".


    (R..M. responded - YUP.That’s why RSZK is saying he will not do the get.)

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  33. Did RSZK put it in writing that he will not do the get? Does he want to have his cake and eat it, too? Once he meddled and put things into writing, if he is busying himself with damage control he should retract in writing as well.


    I have lost a lot of respect for Rabbi Manillowitz. I used to think that he was kosher v'yosher.

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  34. Me thinks R K not a Fearless Lo Sagooroo Mipnei ish ,kind .

    But only a" Pawn" of Freid the Toen on this Case and his Stack &Thick WAD of Bills!! in a Billionaire case.

    A true Sonei Betzah!!!

    Hashm Yirachem!

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  35. Dear Dr. Yael

    Dear Readers:

    I am excited to inform you about an upcoming interview on my radio
    show. On Sunday, August 2, I will air an interview I recorded with Naomi
    Klass Mauer, associate publisher of The Jewish Press and Olam Yehudi.

    The focus of the show is the plight of the agunah and some ways
    of dealing with this horrific situation. Mrs. Mauer discusses cases the
    The Jewish Press has been involved in and the weekly Seruv listings in the paper’s Family Issues section where names of men and women who have refused to abide by a beis din’s psak are mentioned.

    We also talked about Rabbi Mendel Epstein, his methods and trial.
    Many years ago, Rabbi Epstein wrote a column in The Jewish Press about
    the plight of the agunah. This was the first time an Orthodox
    publication directly addressed the issue of agunot in such a public way.

    Mrs. Mauer and a number of women who had been agunot offered to testify on Rabbi Epstein’s behalf and explain what it’s like to be an agunah, but the judge would not permit it.

    Is this fair and just to Rabbi Epstein? I don’t know, but it is a legitimate question.



    ...


    http://www.jewishpress.com/sections/family/marriage-relationships/dear-dr-yael-32/2015/07/31/

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  36. Rabbi Malinowitz's comments about SZK are interesting.

    ("RSZK has enemies., cause he's a loh sagooroo mipnei ish kind of guy.")

    I'd be interested to hear Rabbi Malinowitz elaborate on this.

    He's saying that those who hate him have no legitimate basis for doing so, that in every instance it's because of his being a "loh sagooroo mipnei ish kind of guy?"


    Given that Rav Malinowitz is an experienced dayan, I would assume he wouldn't make such a broad claim without having spoken to those who hate him and heard the particulars of their claims, so I would be interested if Rabbi Malinowitz would explain.

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  37. I am disappointed that Rabbi Malinowitz did not write an official letter explaining the situation. The way you quoted him leaves problems. Here is how you quoted him:



    Yes, he agreed to come to Montreal to be mesader a get IF the Rabbonim there are ok with him doing so ,and if there is no question of kefiyah. {NOTE: ONLY IF RABBONIM IN MONTREAL FIND IT OK FOR HIM TO COME AND IF THERE IS NO QUESTION OF A FORCED GET. BUT IF THERE IS NO QUESTION OF A FORCED GET WHY DON"T THE MONTREAL RABBIS WRITE THE GET?} [NOW SKIP DOWN A BIT***


    They were not ok with it, and then he found out that there was a shayloh of kefiyah.
    end of story meetzeedoh




    ***{THIS NOW SAYS THAT HE ONLY WANTS TO WRITE THE GET IN MONSEY BECAUSE THE MONTREAL RABBIS DON'T WANT HIM THERE. WHY NOT? HE NOW SAYS THAT HE HAS TO BE SURE THERE IS NO COERCION. AND IF THERE IS NO COERCION, WHY WON'T THE MONTREAL RABBIS PERMIT HIM TO WRITE A GET THERE AND WHY WON'T THEY WRITE IT THEMSELVES? WAHT THIS PROBABLY MEANS IS THAT HIS OPINION OF COERCION IS NOT THE SAME AS THE OPINION OF THE RABBIS IN MONTREAL. THIS HAS TO BE CLARIFIED. HOW CAN ANYONE FIND IN THE QUEBEC LAW THAT IT IS NOT COERCION? AND IF WE ACCEPT THAT RSK HAS A GENIUS HEAD, THEN WHY IS IT THAT EVERYONE IN THE WORLD BESIDES HIM IS SURE THERE IN QUEBEC THERE IS A TERRIBLE COERCION, AND WHY DID HE NOT KNOW THAT ALSO? UNLESS, OF COURSE, HE HAS A DIFFERENT INTERPRETATION OF COERCION AND HE ACCEPTS THE ENTIRE QUEBEC COERCION AS NOT BEING COERCION? THIS MUST BE CLEARLY EXPLAINED.]He stands ready to be mesader a get IF


    a)the parties come to Monsey, he will not go to Montreal (because the rabbonim there object to his coming there and being mesader a get)


    b)if all the lawyers come, if she undoes what she did there (causing a kefiyah shayloh) and he is satisfied that no other kefiyah exists .

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  38. Lumah Holach Hazarzeer aitzel Haorev Elah Mifnei Shehoo Meenoi.

    Birds of a color fly together I still remember the Kotler /Feinstien Heter Meah Rabbonim issued By Malinowitz , I just Happened to be staying in the home of one of the main family members of the Kotler side active in producing100 Rabbonim for the Heter. , Malinowitz upon receiving a call from rabbi Nissan Karelitz that Reb Michel Feinstien did not yet answer his summons , Immediately started assembling 100 rabbonim for the Heter ,not an easy task , but one hour later when Reb Nissan karelitz tried to retract his telephone call and when he tried to call Malinowitz again to cancel it,,Malinowitz Just put the phone off the hook !for a WEEK! did not let any calls through from Israel to be able to still Continue his (Now false)efforts for a Heter meah rabbonim , This I witnessed from the kotler side !During the mad dash to get a heter meah rabbonim ,! So even though the Malinowitz Bais din was Fully aware that the Israeli bais din summoning the feinstiens Withdrew their Siruv completely Because Reb Michel Feinstien finally answered Reb Nissan KARELITZ, still MALINOWITZ /Landsman CONTINUED OBTAINING THE 100 RABBONIM! with complete knowledge that it was retracted , and they even fooled all the hapless American rabbonim who signed the heter ,Malinowitz Continued without disclosing His new knowledge of retraction to any outsiders !
    I witnessed it personally!

    This was before there was Internet so it Never became too well known.
    Malinowitz is a Bird of that same color as RSZK they fly together !
    Of course Kaufman takes the corruption to escalated Heights..

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  39. This is Rabbi Eidensohn's reply.

    http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2015/08/rav-moshe-sternbuch-strongly-condemns.html#comment-2171004351



    I do not understand. If Rabbi Manilowitz felt it worthy to comment on this blog twice, why would he walk away before the conversation ended?


    As to Berel's claims, why was heter not opposed by Rav Karelitz in writing?

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  40. Moe,
    Who gave you permission to pasken GET MEUSO? And where did you get the idea that if the husband is terrified but the wife does not invoke the law in court, the GET is kosher? Is it because you "tend to think" that you wrote this?

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  41. If the wife does not inform the court but could inform the court a year later, that is still a terror for the husband. Why do you disagree?

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  42. Good for you.

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  43. Rav Dovid, I agree with you. But what can be done? It is the law on the books as enacted by the legislature. If the wife doesn't threaten to use it, and a Get is is given to her, will all gittin in the State or Province be invalidated because of the law?

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  44. I retract if mistaken. Are all gittin issued in New York and Canada invalid because of the Get Law?

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  45. What Beth Din is
    Kosher? Rabbi Dovid E. Eidensohn






    Wed night 9:30 Aug 5, ’15 – call 605-562-3130 code 411161#






    Years ago I spoke at length with Posek haDor Rav Yosef
    Shalom Elyashev zt”l about coerced Gittin.
    This was about the time that New York State began coercing husbands to
    give a GET upon demand when the marriage was over. The Rov feared that such a
    law could create invalid Gittin and mamzerim, chas vishalom. I asked him the
    following question:






    Let us assume that I go to Beth Din and protest that I do
    not want to give a GET to my wife. The Beth Din then coerces me, maybe even
    beats me, until I say, “I want the GET.” The Beth Din then writes a document
    that the GET has been properly performed and that the wife is free to remarry.
    I then go outside in the street and begin complaining that I was beaten and
    coerced and that the GET is invalid. And the Beth Din maintains that I gave the
    GET willingly. Who will believe me?






    I am now disputing a BETH DIN, who are at least two
    witnesses that are believed over everything else. And furthermore, they are a
    BETH DIN that may be stronger than two witnesses. See Sefer Raviyo #919 about
    witnesses and Beth Din. (Raviyo was Rebbe Eliezar ben Rebbe Yoel HaLevi, from a
    famous family of gedolim who lived in the early period of the Tosfose, after
    Rabbeinu Tam.)


    On the other hand, I am not even one witness, as I am
    talking about myself and not a witness. So what can I do if I am coerced to
    give a GET?



    The Rov replied, “A Beth Din that does things in defiance of
    the Shulchan Aruch loses the status of Beth Din.” His exact words, as I
    remember them, were that he removed from the Beth Din “the Chezkas Beth Din.”

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  46. Due to the tremendous outcry regarding the goings on in Kaufmans Beis din a number of victims are preparing to pursue a class action against the beis din. Please forward your information to classactionkaufmanbeisdin@gmail.com

    ReplyDelete

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