The problem hardly needs elaboration anymore. Fewer and fewer people continue to deny that pornography viewing and addiction are extant if not commonplace in even the most traditional and the most insular communities. The reach of the internet knows almost no boundaries.
So far initiatives to arrest this problem have been few and far between. GuardYourEyes.com is, in the words of Rabbi Dr. Abraham Twersky, “the only weapon we have” in the fight against pornography. It is a very robust tool, but it is not enough. Nor do we have any preventative measures in place. One rosh yeshiva I approached with a proposal to speak to the bochurim about the issue responded that “the rebbeim already speak to the boys individually about this issue.” I would wager an awful lot of money that the rebbeim in that yeshiva are not approaching bochurim to discuss with them the dangers of pornography. Perhaps the rosh yeshiva was referring to sporadic shmuessen on the topic of shmirat einayim or similar topics. This is not nearly enough.
Apart from prevention programs, what do we need to preserve our boys (and girls) from the destruction of pornography? As Rabbi Twersky reports, when the “Just Say No to Drugs” campaign was launched in the 80’s, some adolescents responded with a question: “Why? What else is there?” Pornography is just another drug. (Indeed, studies have shown that the effect it has on the brain is comparable to the effects of heroin.) In order to beat pornography, we have to offer our children something better.
Perhaps you think I am going to turn here to laud the value and primacy of Torah. While I do not deny either, I humbly submit that this is not the answer. When we say we need to offer something “better,” we aren’t speaking about “good” in its moral sense. “Better” to a teenager means more interesting, more satisfying, more gratifying. Developing an appreciation for Torah is a lifelong pursuit; we cannot expect of our youngsters to feel an emotional connection to and deep appreciation of it in their adolescent years, much as we don’t expect children to willingly choose healthy alternatives to junk food (even when they may be just as tasty), or fine wines over sugary sodas.
Pornography is indeed interesting, satisfying, and gratifying – but only superficially and temporarily. The urge, once fulfilled, remains so for only a brief time until it rears its ugly head again. Torah, of course, is much deeper and more permanent, but it is a fine wine, and we can’t rely on Torah learning in its pure form to compete with the quick-and-easy stuff for the minds of our youth when they live in a world so deluged with opportunities for instant gratification. Of course, the deeper pleasures in life only come with effort; but there is a ladder to climb in learning to appreciate this truth.
Thus, in order to assist our youth in climbing this ladder, we need to provide them with endeavors in which they can participate that do take effort and do provide a more lasting satisfaction. And let’s be honest: not every bochur is cut out for full-time learning. Not every bochur is even cut out for more than a small quantity of itim k’vuim (and even then, gemara is simply not on the metaphorical or literal table for many). This is not a chiddush to anyone; yet the system has few answers for these bochrim.
Students who do not enjoy learning will not find it an attractive alternative to pornography. True pleasure comes from using the skills and talents with which one has been bestowed by the Creator in productive and meaningful pursuits. Research has found that people are happy when they are using those skills in a forum that challenges them, but that does not present goals that are hopelessly out of reach. And let us reiterate: for many people, those skills do not involve logical reasoning, linguistic deliberations, or any of the other requirements of serious learning. (I am not suggesting we not cultivate those skills in our youth; I am merely proposing that those skills take time to develop, and that while they are developing, they are not terribly effective as weapons against a very well-developed yetzer hara.)
For many people – all kinds of people! – the skills they need to call upon to actualize themselves are far more varied. G-d has created artists in His world, creative writers, actors – people who need to invent new ideas, express them, share them. He has created people who are athletic, who are physically nimble or strong or active and for whom nothing could be more fulfilling than pushing their bodies to the limits, whether it be on a hike, in the gym, or on the court. He has created “people people,” who thrive when engaging with others socially and emotionally, not just academically. All of these kinds of individuals will need pursuits that match their personalities and skill sets. Gemara simply isn’t enough of an answer. When adolescents are in front of a computer screen with free time, considering the options of how to spend it, it will be only a very few who will choose to look up a Ritva rather than browse a site that may be off-limits. But there are decidedly more who might be willing to try out a new illustration program, or look up recipes to try in the kitchen, or write a meaningful letter to soldiers out in the field – and how much more so would this be true if these activities were valued in our community, not merely tolerated (at best). To an artist, creating art feels productive and good. To an engineer, building a model or a robot or a prototype feels productive and good. THIS is the tool that will help us fight the scourge of pornography. THIS is what can ward off the emptiness that invites the filth in with open arms.
None of this is a contradiction to the primacy of Torah. For most of Jewish history, Jews held up the Torah as the central value and guiding light of our nation, yet only a very few were privileged to learn a significant portion of it, let alone all day every day. And yet the Jewish nation has indeed survived the millennia, and the Torah has not been lost from us. It is vital to imbue our youngsters with the wisdom and vitality of Torah; but that does not equate to turning every child into a kollel yungerman. G-d did not design us so. And when we deny our children the outlet that their very nature yearns for, learning will not provide an adequate substitute. The result is the lack of fulfillment that pushes our youngsters to the supremely accessible drug of pornography.
Saving the next generation from the vice that already has many of them – and many among the older generations as well – in its clutches will not be a matter of doing what we are already doing, just better and harder. It will take an approach that is different – but that is after all not so different from what we did for so many centuries before last.
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This is a new approach! Using the incidence of pornography among bnei yeshiva (for which there are no statistics, only anecdote and hearsay) to attack the yeshiva system. Let them be artists, engineers and writers instead. Because writers, artists, gym rats, soldiers and engineers never view pornography. Of course not.
ReplyDeleteWell said, kishkeyum.
ReplyDeleteAnother takeaway from Mr. Bilek's article is that he is saying that those who truly are interested in Limud Torah are less prone to porn and those who aren't interested much in Torah are more prone to porn.
Dear Kishkeyum, with all due respect, I feel sorry for your children. Torah without daas equals disaster.
ReplyDeleteIs homosexuality a lesser evil?
ReplyDeleteThe yetzer hara cannot be stopped, and certainly not amongst hormone filled young men. If they can be insulated from online pornography, then they will seek stimulation elsewhere. You cannot fight against human biology, and when you do, the results may be worse that what you are fighting against.
So there's no way for them to avoid aveiras, you say?
ReplyDeletewith all due respect, I feel sorry for your children.
ReplyDeleteSaying that you're sorry for my children does not constitute respect of any kind, let alone "due respect." Why not take a break from silly blog-comment cliches and offer an actual response. If you're capable of one, that is.
His article is not very well thought out. It's an opportunistic use of the current pornography scare to push an unrelated agenda.
ReplyDeleteSeparately, I question this statement:
pornography viewing and addiction are extant if not commonplace in even the most traditional and the most insular communities
This smacks to me of scaremongering. I'll bet dollars to donuts that he has no data to base this on, that it's based on some anecdotes he heard somewhere. It's irresponsible to make such sweeping statements without proof.
Very well said! With pornography prevalent, you can't make Torah more entertaining and enjoyable than Torah. Period! For mechanchim it's a steep battle. Very true kids need hobbies and recreational activities to staying clear from it. Boredom brings the yetzer hara, busyness keeps it away.
ReplyDeleteRabbeim also need to teach in a way that applies to How a kid thinks and knows How his brain works. Ofcourse a kid isn't turned on to learning When he feels it's not for him and can't relate to it.
Sick, anti-Torah drivel.
ReplyDelete"With pornography prevalent, you can't make Torah more entertaining and enjoyable than Torah."
ReplyDeleteWhat is this supposed to mean?
And "daas" is anything other than Torah!
ReplyDeleteMore than that. There is data out there. Data from internet providers, with regards to which neighborhoods frequent which types of sites, are available to researchers. Did Mr. Bilek even make an attempt to obtain the data?
ReplyDelete.ב"ב טז
ReplyDeleteבקש איוב לפטור את כל העולם כולו מן הדין, אמר לפניו, רבש"ע, בראת שור פרסותיו סדוקות, בראת חמור פרסותיו קלוטות, בראת גן עדן בראת גיהנם, בראת צדיקים בראת רשעים, מי מעכב על ידך
(וברש"י: "בראת שור בפרסות סדוקות וכו' - את זה טהרת ואת זה טמאת, הכל בא על ידך אתה בראת בו סימני הטומאה. בראת צדיקים - ע"י יצר טוב. בראת רשעים - על ידי יצה"ר, לפיכך אין ניצול מידך כי מי יעכב אנוסין הן החוטאין")
ומאי אהדרו ליה חבריה דאיוב... ברא הקב"ה יצר הרע, ברא לו תורה תבלין
וברש"י: "ברא לו תורה - הן תבלין שהיא מבטלת את הרהורי עבירה, כדאמר בעלמא [קדושין ל:] 'אם פגע בך מנוול זה משכהו לביהמ"ד אם אבן הוא נימוח' כו', הלכך לאו אנוסין נינהו, שהרי יכולין להציל עצמן
Yes, we can, and must!, fight against natural-seeming temptations. You might have איוב in your corner. But we must remember the response of s'איוב friends.
I think his point is to find kosher stimulation, like healthy hobbies and extracurricular and recreational activities
ReplyDelete'Not every bochur is cut out for full time learning'
ReplyDeleteThis statement is heresy for RY. Many of them honestly think their talmidim prefer gemara over other activities.
So they ignore other outlets like ... basketball (or other excercise), college (or other non talmudic learning), early (pre 21 year old) dating, creative endeavors like the arts mentioned ...
As an IT professional working in the frum community I have the opportunity to view computers of many different types of frum Jews, and have ways to see the history of people's browsing habits. I have seen that pornography was viewed on the computers of roshei yeshiva, choshove rabbanim both chassidish and non chassidish, doctors, lawyers, businessmen, elected officials and so forth.
ReplyDeleteMany of these are well adjusted people. They might view the pornography for a few minutes and then move on with their lives. We all have secrets and vices. If anyone knew what was in your thoughts you'd be ashamed.
All this fear-mongering about pornography, when everyone normal knows that viewing pornography is normal and not harmful, and definitely nothing like a drug, when done in moderation. A.J. Twersky is old and shriveled and totally out of touch, or is making a few bucks, or getting some attention from pushing the issue.
Another "everyone normal knows..." expert. Stick to computers, and you won't make a fool of yourself.
ReplyDeleteSince Rabbeim are trying to fight the pornography battle with Torah, they're going to lose. Cause you can't present Torah as more enjoyable than naked girls.
ReplyDeleteDon't think that's exactly true. Yes there are Ry that think that. But there are more Ry now that do encourage guys play ball, music, and do hobbies. When they say your cut out to learn they mean that theyre not giving up on them and don't hold yourself short, you can do it.
ReplyDeleteIm in yeshiva and have seen countless guys that said they weren't cut out and my Ry believed in them and they Love learning and are cut out. And alot are dedicating their lives for Torah.
IT guy, I appreciate your sincerity in trying to grasp this phenomenon. I doubt you are old and shriveled, But you are clearly out of touch, ignorant and naive with regards to addictions in general, especially with sex & pornography addiction. As a 37 male with porn addiction for more than 25 years, I can assure you and support what rabbi tweeki says. This is a real addiction. Don't believe him (or me)? Google it. Find out about sexahloics anonymous. Discover that this addictions spans all types from society, Jew nonjew, frum secular. Read all the stories from the fellas at guardyoureyes from the past six or so years. Go to amazom and check out all the books on the topic.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/s/ref=is_s/178-7199545-1842939?k=porn+addiction
There are books written on this topic from all angles from self help to biological undeestandings, psychology. After reading all the material on the topic and getting proper exposure to people with addiction, you still decide that rabbi twerski is old, shriveled and out of touch, then you have simply proven yourself to be dishonest.
I happen to be an IT Pro who has done work for the Pope, the Pope Emeritus, the Ayatollah of Iran, the POTUS and Mother Theresa. All of them have been heavy porn viewers.
ReplyDeleteAs it so happens you, sir, are in a dreamland. You are neither an IT professional nor have you found porn in every corner you've worked, nor have you been working on all the computers of roshei yeshivas and choshove rabbanim anywhere or everywhere.
But you do have a vivid imagination and ability to be a writer of fiction.
He's also an expert in medicine. In the next discussion he'll be telling you he's an internists whose seen roshei yeshiva, choshove rabbanim both chassidish and non chassidish, doctors, lawyers, businessmen, elected officials and found all of them to be engaged in extra marital affairs with many of them having STD.
ReplyDeleteAnd it's all normal.
I don't believe there's any data any American internet provider will give or even collect about which zip codes watch more porn than other zip codes. They'd be a major privacy scandal in the media if anything close to that was collected let alone released.
ReplyDeleteEddie,
ReplyDeletePornography is not normal human biology. It takes advantage of basic human biology. People don't naturally learn to crave and rely on pornography (the way me the porn addict does). This is based on the principle of Neuroplasticity. Basically, porn adsiction isa learnes behavior where over exposure rewires the brain. You can read more about this in the following book:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0143113100/ref=mp_s_a_1_sc_1?qid=1430478125&sr=8-1-spell&pi=AC_SX110_SY165_QL7
The author has a chapter on porn addiction, and its neurological understandings based on how the brain is rewrired.
Provenmen, a christian porn addict website conducted a survey last year. http://www.provenmen.org/2014pornsurvey/pornography-use-and-addiction/
ReplyDeleteBeware of the christian undertone of the site.
Obviously, this says nothing about the stats in Jewish world, but I think it gives a clue of how rampant it is in society at large
I do, however, agree with general sentiments of kiahkayim. The author's approach is way off.
If the elite porno fans are not afraid of Heavenly retribution, they can now be afraid of snoopy IT guys!
ReplyDeleteThat's if he indeed is an IT guy. I mean, can you picture the scene of Roshei Yeshiva and choshove rabbanim trudging their computers to this guys supposed store.. LOL
ReplyDeleteI'm anonymous here on the internet. I can claim to be anything I would like to in order to try to get you to accept my point of view.
do you have a magic wand? do you think there were no problems 20 years ago before internet?
ReplyDeleteThat the destructiveness of pornography is overrated is an interesting point, but you take it a bit too far. It is certainly not true that "everyone normal" knows that viewing pornography is "normal and not harmful". There are lots of non-frum people who have gotten comfortable with it, but they generally don't care about morality in the sense that we do, and don't have the same expectations out of relationships that we do. Furthermore, many drugs are not either harmful in moderation - the problem is precisely that they are difficult to moderate.
ReplyDeleteA reasonable approach to address the sudden accessibility of pornography is going to require a balance. The euphemistic wailing about kedusha and shmiras einayim and homes being destroyed probably destroys more homes than pornography alone. On the other hand, our community can reasonably treat pornography as a general negative, and conceive of productive and reasonable ways to curtail its prevalence within our borders.
Oh, for heaven's sake. And you claim to be in yeshiva, no less. Are you high?
ReplyDeleteYou should have told all this to G-d before he wrote the Torah.
ReplyDeleteAnd how do you know this? What are your experiences and training that has given you the expertise to reach this conclusion?
ReplyDeleteYou are conflating destructiveness and prohibition. The two are not necessarily the same. Regardless of whether or not pornography destroys homes, marriages and lives, it is prohibited to view min haTorah.
ReplyDeleteAs far as its destructiveness is concerened, I don't think anyone really knows. There are anecdotes but no reliable data. I'm skeptical of the claims, b/c they remind me of the hysterical claims of the anti-internet people.
@MiMedininat HaYam: Either you are not really from medinas hayam, or you know nothing about this topic, because your information is absolutely, hopelessly wrong. You are talking out of your posterior.
ReplyDeleteA brief comment to all the mockers.
ReplyDeleteFirst of all, I really am an IT guy, and no, "Roshei Yeshiva and choshove rabbanim" don't "trudge their computers to my supposed store," I do IT installations and support at mosdos and businesses, as well as for private people. I either visit them, or more often, I log in to their computers remotely from the comfort of my office. They call me complaining that their computer is slow, their printer isn't printing, they are getting pop-ups, and so forth.
I really don't get what you are mocking? Is it that you don't believe rabbanim need their computers worked on, or that you don't believe IT people work on them, or you don't believe that there are rabbanim who look at porn?
If it's that you don't believe that any rabbanim look at porn, then you are like the people who don't believe that such a and such choshove person could have molested anyone. The idea that rabbanim are exempt from our vices is naive and childish.
There are rabbanim who molested children, yet you don't believe that there are rabbanim who watch porn, which involves only themselves?
Naive, naive, naive, is all I can say, although I can probably add in, denial, denial, denial.
(And by the way, as much as people think their browsing history can be erased or hidden with private browsing, often there is still a record in various places, especially when there is a server.)
As for pornography addiction, to call everyone who looks at pornography an addict would be like calling someone who has a glass of wine at dinner an alcoholic. Are there people who have porn addictions? Yes. Are most people who look at porn addicts? No, not unless the casual wine drinker is an alcoholic. The porn user is no more a porn addict than the person who checks his Facebook several times a day has a computer addiction.
I absolutely stand behind what I said about A.J. Twersky. His advice is harmful and causes more problems.
what a cynical reply - doesn't Maimonides state that in every community you will have 3 inescapable sins - theft, gilui arayot and avkat loshon hara - in other words, he is stating from a Torha perspective the same principle that i state as being psychology or reality.
ReplyDeleteFurthermore, the Torah itself, which is Hashem's revealed Word, sates that man's imagination is evil from the beginning.
It is difficult to speak of free will as if it is something you can buy on amazon. It is not something that can be fully understood. Perhaps since you are a tzaddik, and have never sinned in any aspect, then you look down upon humans and see how wretched they are!
If there is an easy way to avoid aveiros, maybe you can cancel Yom kippur!
ReplyDeleteNuanced Eddie strikes again!
ReplyDelete"His advice is harmful and causes more problems."
ReplyDeleteDid you glean this insight from your IT work?
It's either easy or there is no way to avoid aveiros? No middle road? Does every aveira have the same chance of being committed?
ReplyDeleteYes, everyone is prone to transgress some form of avak lashon hara. Most transgress some sort of wrongdoing with property (or money) that isn't theirs. Very few Torah Jews transgress adultery.
(בבא בתרא קסה)
You have many who claim that half, or more, of the general population commits adultery. Just like their numbers of infidelity is not applicable to us, so are their numbers on pornography inapplicable to us.
Okay, so now not only are you an IT pro you're a porn export as well. And a rabbinical and psychological export, to boot, with your professional commentary on Rabbi Twersky and acholholism and porn addiction. Tomorrow you will be posting a medical doctor whose diagnosed roshei yeshiva, choshove rabbanim both chassidish and non chassidish, doctors, lawyers, businessmen, elected officials and so forth with STD and determined they're all engaged in extramarital affairs after having conversations with your large roster of roshei yeshiva, choshove rabbanim both chassidish and non chassidish, doctors, lawyers, businessmen and elected officials.
ReplyDeleteHow many elected officials are calling you to login to their computers? You must have a large number of rabbonim in addition to those government official customers of yours. And while you're checking their printer, of course you make sure to look at their browsing history. Not only that, you even investigate the browsing history when they were in privacy mode. Hopefully you're logging all this evidence. That and the STD. Especially as most of these roshei yeshiva and choshove rabbanim are opposed to having internet and it would be surprising for them to be calling you in your heimishe basement to check out why their browser is getting pop-ups.
Anyways, the Pope just called me to check why his internet connection is down. Gotta go logging into vatica.va
No one said anything is easy. But you are of the opinion that "The yetzer hara cannot be stopped".
ReplyDeleteIf you want us to accept your point-of-view based upon your assertion that you are an IT person, then you would have to reveal your identity. As long as you remain anonymous, you don't have any credibility and your argument have to measured by cold logic standards. In fact, your anonymous claim of being an IT guy only serves to discredit you. Either speak logically, and exclude the IT claim, or reveal yourself. Hiding behind the claim is extremely suspicious.
ReplyDeleteLet's get to your claim of Roshei Yeshiva. Kookoo, kookoo, kookoo. Fantasy, fantasy, fantasy. The serious rosh yeshiva does not have time to spend in front of computers, and certainly does not have the type of computer system set you concocted. Ditto with serious rabbonim. They just don't have the time.
---
You then stretch your claimed IT expertise to emotional health expertise.
Your claim that Rashei Yeshiva and rabbanim have no time to spend in front of computers is preposterous. There are many Rashei Yeshiva and rabbanim who use their computers extensively, whether preparing for shiurim using Otzar hachachma-type programs, communicating with talmidim, parents, and congregants, and the like.
ReplyDelete"Yes, everyone is prone to transgress some form of avak lashon hara. Most transgress some sort of wrongdoing with property (or money) that isn't theirs. Very few Torah Jews transgress adultery."
ReplyDeleteHonesty, thank you for your comments. I wodner why you are nto being attacked but I am? Am i quoting a different gemara from you?
Chaim, you cannot take action against me to prevent me from making nuanced comments. Only after I have made them!
ReplyDeleteIndeed, those who use internet connected computers extensively are not the ones I'm referring to. What does many mean, and what does the term "rosh yeshiva" mean?
ReplyDeleteDon't put words in Chazal's mouth they did not say. Only Eddie has said "The yetzer hara cannot be stopped, and certainly not amongst hormone filled young men.".
ReplyDeleteSo, you are basically asserting a tautology, that Rashei Yeshiva and Rabbonim who don't use internet computers do not view inappropriate websites. Well, I certainly can't argue with that.
ReplyDeleteMoe, did they not say what is quoted from Bava Batra?
ReplyDeleteThat is what my previous comment was referring to, as I mentioned.
Once again, do you think the yetzer hara can be stopped? Show me proof.
Also having spoken to people from a generation older than me, i have been told that things went on in Yeshivot 50 years or so ago. This was before internet, and it involved the yetzer hara. As i said, perhaps you are a ministering angel who has not struggle with the yetzer hara, but for ordinary flesh and blood this is case.
Here is a controversial argument:
ReplyDeleteAccording to Rambam, it might be the case that pornography is worse than adultery/ znus. He explains the comment of Chazal that the thought is worse than the act, by arguing that the nature of the body is to seek teh physical, whilst the nature of the mind is to seek the spiritual. Thus, says Rambam in his Moreh haNevuchim, that it is natural for a body to seek pleasures of the flesh, but when the mind seeks such pleasures, it is a destruction of its holy nature.
This is both interesting and paradoxical. Any comments?
It doesn't take that much time. Ain Apotropos Le'arayos. If someone told you that a rosh yeshiva or a choshuva rov was secluded with a girl, would you also be denying that he would have time to sin? Why is a computer different? Do you think that every single person with a computer has a filter?
ReplyDeleteI don't know what generation you think we are in, but these days, when we say Roshei Yeshiva and Rabbonim, we are not only referring to Rav Moshe ZT"L, Rav Yaakov Z"TL, and Rav Aharon ZT"L. There is a very wide spectrum of people who are called Roshei Yeshiva and Rabbonim
ReplyDeleteNot saying that I agree with everything that the purported IT guy said, but it would be nice to see one of you guys counter his points with actual LOGIC.
ReplyDeleteNothing in Bava Basra comes remotely close to "The yetzer hara cannot be stopped, and certainly not amongst hormone filled young men.".
ReplyDeleteThat's certainly a great argument why folks shouldn't have internet.
ReplyDeleteYes. From now on, I advise anyone about to have an evil thought to instead go out and find a zonah and sin with her instead. But that is only on condition that they only sin with her physically and do not think about her at all while committing the act. Sort of like an out-of-body experience.
ReplyDeletedo you think the yetzer hara can be stopped? Show me proof.
ReplyDeletehttp://daattorah.blogspot.com/2015/04/how-to-get-porn-out-of-our-yeshivas-by.html#comment-1996938982
There is probably a difference in the thought of an aveira of which a person can commit, as opposed to the thoughts being brought on by video - which is not at present within his reach. However, this is only in reference to the thought being worse than the action. However, the action of looking at כיעור is a transgression, in and of itself.
ReplyDeleteThere is a very wide spectrum of people who are called Roshei Yeshiva and Rabbonim
ReplyDeleteTrue. There are orthodox rabbis who are unaware that Avraham avinu existed. There are orthodox Roshei Yeshiva who even encourage pornography.
This supposed IT guy didn't simply state rabbis.
roshei yeshiva, choshove rabbanim both chassidish and non chassidish suggests that he is talking about the real deal Rabbonim.
You and Mr. IT guy are speaking about different things. Please reread both his claims.
ReplyDeleteI know how to read, thank you.
ReplyDeleteI am also talking about people who are considered real deal Rabbonim. These days, this is also a very wide spectrum. Again, I know how to read.
ReplyDeleteI see your logic. It is also true that one who never interacts with another human being never violates the halakhos of lashon hara, so that is certainly a great argument why folks should never interact with another human being.
ReplyDeleteAnd one who never eats meat never violates the halakhos of neveilos and tereifos, so that is certainly a great argument why folks shouldn't eat meat.
And on, and on.
Nat, that is one of your best replies so far. In fact, this was my own reaction/yetzer hara when i first heard this concept. However, dear Nat, since you are (apparently) frummer than me, how do u justify mocking the words of the Sages?
ReplyDeleteI don't know the specific category of the p-o-r-n aveira, but I assume it may be largely mental or visual. But the statement made by Chazal was already before the days of internet, movies etc. However, it is a very interesting concept - and we know that acts are punishable, eg the act of Zimri, although had he only thought about it but not acted, there would not be (an earthly) punishment.
ReplyDeleteYes, I have a comment on Eddie's bizarre shtickel Torah:
ReplyDelete"A little knowledge is a dangerous thing."
Honesty, I didn't bother listening to the podcast, but is it necessarily pornographic to discuss issues like that? There are discussions in Chazal of various intimate matters, including....
ReplyDeleteIf it is done in the correct spirit, then it is not pornography.
I forgot to add that it would be preferable if it would be a non-Jewish zonah, which is not really a problem according to halacha, as opposed to a Jewish Zonah, which may be a problem of Nidda (Unless you can get her into some mikva beforehand), but you can also do a pilegesh setup.
ReplyDeleteAlthough a non-Jewish zonah is a bigger problem according to kabbalah, we are speaking within the Rambam leshitaso, and the Rambam didn't really hold of kabbalah, so this would definitely be the better option.
kishkes, since you purport to have a lot of knowledge, why are you so afraid to share it?
ReplyDelete@Nat you are ignoring the Rambam's words which contradict your summary
ReplyDeleteRambam (Hilchos Issurei Bi’ah 12:6): If the man having relations with a non-Jewish woman doesn’t get punished by zealots and doesn’t get lashes from beis din – then the punishment is kares which is known from tradition (Malachi 2:11-12)…We learn that this verse that someone who has sexual relations with a non Jewish woman is as if he is married to an idol since this verse describes her the daughter of a strange god and it is described as profaning G d’s holiness.
Rambam (Hilchos Issurei Bi’ah 12:7-8): This sin [of sexual relations with a non Jew] even though beis din does not impose the death penatly - should not be viewed as minor because there is a loss associated with it. Contrary to all other sexual transgressions in which the son of the relationship is still his son in every respect and has the status of a Jew – even if the child is a mamzer – but the child from a non Jewish mother is not his son as it says in Devarim (7:4): For they will turn away your son from following Me.” That means that the son has been removed from following after G d. This activity causes him to attach himself to non Jews which G d has separated us from them so that we would follow after Him and thus he is rejecting G d.
So as a practical matter which sin is worse. Sinning with a non-Jewish woman or with a Jewish nidda?
ReplyDeleteEddie: Where have I "purported" to have a lot of knowledge? Nowhere that I can recall.
ReplyDeleteThis is a very serious discussion, although there have been digressions in sarcasm etc.
ReplyDeleteThe current sub-debate between myself and Nat is understanding the concept of the "thought is worse than the act" if operationalised halachically. In other words, Nat is making a logical inference from this statement (which is also based on Rambam/Chazal). he is making a kal v'chomer, that the thought (eg watching pornography) is worse than the act (examples he has given). Even though he says this somewhat sarcastically, it is a logical argument. So unless we understand the concept of thought-aveiros differently, eg as non halachic , but some kind of pedagogic device, then ther may be some justification for considering the thought of such an act as even worse than committing the physical sin itself!
Rav Yaakov Kaminetsky (Emes LeYaakov Parshas Yechi page 237): A practical example of zealousness which is not based on a correct reading of the halacha is found in the following question. A person has the choice of marrying a Jewish woman who doesn’t observe the laws of family purity or a non Jewish woman. Which is preferable? A student who has not properly served an apprenticeship with an experienced posek will say that it is obvious that the person should chose to marry the non Jewish woman. That is because sexual relations with a nidah is punished by kares while sexual relations with a non-Jew is only a violation of a negative commandment of the Torah which is not punished by kares. The truth is not this way. Rambam (Hilchos Issurei Bi’ah 12:7-8) states that even though sexual relations with a non-Jewish maidservant is only a rabbinic prohibition he rules that, “this sin even though it is not punished by capital punishment from the court should not be viewed lightly. That is because there is a loss associated with sexual relations with a non Jew which you don’t find in the violation of all the other prohibited sexual relations. That loss is that the son from the other prohibited sexual relations is still his son in every respect and is considered a Jew. That is true even if the child is a mamzer. In contrast the son from a non Jewish woman is not his son…. This sexual relationship with a non-Jewish woman will cause him to turn away from G-d and to attach himself to non-Jews. - from whom G-d has deliberately separated us so that we can be close to G-d... “ It is clear from this that the person should chose the relationship with the Jewish woman even though she doesn’t observe the laws of family purity.
ReplyDeleteRDE: My question isn't about marrying a Jew vs. a non-Jew. The question was whether it is worse sinning with a non-Jew or sinning with a Jew (unmarried). (In either case a one time event, not an ongoing relationship or marriage.)
ReplyDeleteOK - into the childish thing now. Cool.
ReplyDeleteOK, have it your way. You must have a valid point somewhere in all that ambiguity.
ReplyDeleteI was actually referencing this point made by Rav Yaakov in my satire. I guess that I should have mentioned that it was satire so that you would have not taken me seriously. I thought that, based on the history of my comments on this blog, you would have understood it as such, but I guess I was mistaken.
ReplyDeleteEddie, I do admit to having a little fun at your expense by carrying your unspoken logic ad infinitum. But I will answer you seriously now, as I was definitely not mocking any of the sages. What I understand to be the solution to this apparent problem is that the different references are referring to different bechinot (facets) of the matter. As discussed in Nefesh Hachayim, an aveira of thought does more damage on a certain bechina than aveira of action. However, in other ways, an aveira of deed obviously does more damage than an aveira of thought. In addition, it is easier for a person to control his actions than his thoughts, and this factors into the matter as well. Each statement of Chazal has a place in its context. You cannot just take one statement of Chazal out of context and say that since Chazal said that a hirhur is worse than an aveira, then it is better to do an aveira than to have a hirhur. This was the point of my sarcasm, and I hope that my point is somewhat better understood now. And I do not remember to have claimed to be frummer than others.
ReplyDeleteKishkes, by your assertion that I have a little a knowledge, you imply that you have more knowledge - and hence i requested that you demonstrate that knowledge, which you have been unable or unwilling to do.
ReplyDeleteI heard a very similar - or identical - deah was expressed by the Lubavitcher Rebbe. But my concern is whether this is policy, Daas, or halacha.
ReplyDeletefrom one perspective, as far as the Kehilla is concerned, then marrying within is obviously better. On the other hand, from the severity of the punishment, kareth is not specified for intermarriage - certainly not when it is outside of the 7 nations (which do not exist today). I am speaking only in terms of what a BD could today or even when they have full powers, and also in terms of the reward/punishment in the next world.
@Nat - satire doesn't work very well in comments on a blog. Even for someone like yourself
ReplyDelete@David - Rav Yaakov's point is that what action is worse or the lesser of evils is not bean counting.
ReplyDelete@Eddie - there are many explanations
ReplyDeleteרבינו בחיי (דברים פרק כט:יח): וזהו שאמרו רז"ל: (יומא כט א) הרהורי עבירה קשין מעבירה, לפי שהרהור הזה יוצא לידי פעולה ומתגלה בגוף, ועל כן יהא קשה מעבירה בלא הרהור, שהרי בזה הרהור ופעולה, ובזה פעולה בלא הרהור. והמאמר הזה לרז"ל גדול הערך מאד, רבו בו הפירושים, וזה שאמרתי אחד. ועוד פירשו בו: הרהורי עבירה קשין מעבירה, כי רגילות המחשבה מביא האדם לידי עבירה. ועוד פירשו, כי הרהורי עבירה קשין על הנפש מעבירה עצמה לפי שהרהור תלוי בלב והנפש משכנה בלב, ועל כן כשהוא מטמא אותה במחשבה רעה קשה יותר מן העבירה עצמה כי העושה עבירה עצמה אין מחשבתו כל כך טרודה. ועוד פירשו בו: הרהורי עבירה קשין מעבירה, כי המחשב לעשות עבירה אחת כגון לגזול או לגנוב או לבא על אחת מן העריות וחשב בלבו: אם יבא אדם כנגדו שם לבטל מה שאני רוצה לעשות, אכנו או אהרגנו, כדי שאשלים חפצי, ונמצא כי כשגנב או גזל או בא על הערוה שעשה עבירה אחת, אצל ההרהור היה קשה יותר מגוף העבירה שהרהר כמה עבירות וגמר בלבו שיכה ושיהרוג ולבסוף יעשה העבירה.
ואם ישאל שואל: והאיך יעניש הכתוב על ההרהור בלא מעשה, כי בודאי אין האדם יכול לשלוט בעצמו שלא יעלו בלבו מחשבות רעות, ואם כן למה יעניש על מה שאינו בידו. אבל אודיעך עיקר הדבר, ידוע כי בחירת המעשים מסורה בידו של אדם לטוב ולרע, הוא שכתוב: (דברים ל, טו - יט) "ראה נתתי לפניך היום את החיים ואת הטוב ואת המות ואת הרע וגו', ובחרת בחיים", גם בחירת המחשבה מסורה בידו אחר ההכנות, כי נצטוה שיחשוב מחשבה טובה ונזהר שיפנה לבו מלחשוב מחשבה רעה, והוא נגמל על המחשבה הטובה ונענש על המחשבה הרעה. ומה שלפעמים יולידו סרעפיו ורעיוניו מחשבות בלתי טובות, ויעלו על לבבו בפתע פתאום הרהורים לא ראוין שלא במתכוון, הנה זה טרם ההכנות והוא סימן המכשול והחטא, כי הטה עצמו מני אורח ולא גדל נפשו במדרגת ההכנות, ותקנתו ורפואתו שישתדל בהכנות והוא שיכין לבו ומחשבותיו אל השם יתעלה, ולו ישעבד ויכוף מחשבתו במחשבה טובה ובכשרון המפעלים, ואם באת המחשבה הרעה שיגער בה, שאם אינו גוער בה והיא עומדת בלבו הנה הוא נענש. וכאשר יתמיד מחשבתו זאת זמן רב ויכין לבו לאהבת השם יתברך ולקרבה אליו וללכת בדרכיו, גם ה' יתן הטוב ויגמלהו כצדקו שיכין לבו שלא יחשוב בדבר רע ולא יעלה במחשבתו רק טוב, ועל זה אמרו: (יומא לח ב) בא לטהר מסייעין אותו. ורבים הכתובים על העיקר הזה, הוא שכתוב: (דברי הימים - א כח, ט) "כי כל לבבות דורש ה' וכל יצר מחשבות מבין אם תבקשנו ימצא לך", וכתיב: (משלי כא, ב) "ותוכן לבות ה'", כי הש"י מכין לב האדם ומישר תולדתו כשאדם מכין לבו כנגדו יתעלה, וכן כתוב: (תהלים י, יז) "תאות ענוים שמעת ה' תכין לבם תקשיב אזנך", וכתיב: (דברי הימים - א כט, יח) "ה' אלהי אברהם יצחק וישראל אבותינו שמרה זאת לעולם ליצר מחשבות לבב עמך והכן לבבם אליך".
והרמב"ם ז"ל פירש הרהורי עבירה קשין מעבירה, לפי שהמחשבה מעלה גדולה באדם מכח השכל וממדות הנפש השכלית, וכשהוא חוטא בו הנה הוא חוטא במבחר מדותיו, ואין אשמת המשתמש בעבד סכל כאשמת המשתמש בבן חורין חכם, (כן כתב בתחלת פרק שני מספרו [מורה נבוכים ג, ח]). ועוד טעם אחר הרהורי עבירה קשין מעבירה אחר מעשה העבירה, כי כיון שעשה העבירה כבר, ועוד הוא מהרהר בזה הוא קשה לענין עונש הנפש מעבירה עצמה, אבל קודם מעשה העבירה אין עונשו קשה ואינו נענש כלל, שהרי אמרו רז"ל: (קידושין מ א) מחשבה רעה אין הקדוש ברוך הוא מצרפה למעשה, ואינו נענש עליה, וכן הכתוב אומר: (תהלים סו, יח) "און אם ראיתי בלבי לא ישמע ה'", אלא אם כן היתה מחשבת עבודה זרה שכתוב בה: (יחזקאל יד, ה) "למען תפוש את בית ישראל בלבם".
תוספות רי"ד (יומא כט.): הרהור עבירה קשה מעבירה פי' יותר מתאוה אדם על העבירה כשמהרהר עלי' מעבירה עצמה כשהעבירה לפניו ועוסק בה וסימנך ריחא דבשרא כשאדם מריח הצלי יותר אדם מתאוה לריחו ממה שהי' מתאוה אם הי' הבשר לפניו:
yes, but in a certain bechina, as you state, it is "better" or less worse to do the aveira than the thought.
ReplyDeleteThose familiar with literature understand satire to be one of many available literary tools. Otherwise, it's like telling someone he can't write a sentence in a book because, according to Word grammar check, the sentence is incorrect.
ReplyDelete@Nat no one is stopping you from writing satire. I am just letting you know it isn't perceived as such
ReplyDeleteWhen you use the term "better," one imagines a fellow going to a Rov and asking him--I am going to commit an aveira. Which one is the better one to commit?
ReplyDeleteYes, from certain bechinot, certain aveirot are worse than others. But you can't take a single statement of Chazal out of context and build an entire structure on it. That is my general point. These statements are meant to be academic, not practical. Because if someone goes to a Rov to ask which aveira is "better," the premeditation involved in his actions alone is somewhat heretical, and then he has lost out from that bechina, even if he ends up doing the aveira that is "better." That was basically the point that Rav Yaakov was making.
Yes, I do. It seems, from the general direction of your comments, that you live in a simplistic, black and white world, where all non-charedim are bad, and all charedim are good, and especially if they carry the title of Rosh Yeshiva or Rov. This is not the case in the real world.
ReplyDeleteIt implies no such thing. Of course, I certainly hope I know more than you, though that sets a very low bar.
ReplyDeleteAs a rule, I refrain from involving myself in your so-called Torah discussions, which are often actually distortions of Torah to fit your anti-Torah notions. I have no interest in fueling your ongoing זיוף התורה. Torah is a two-edged sword: זכה נעשית לו סם חיים לא זכה נעשית לו סם המוות. I try to stay on the right side of that divide.
I also find distasteful your habit of deriding chareidim, which borders on open hatred. I seems ridiculous to me to discuss Torah with someone who displays hatred for an entire community of Jews, specifically a community deeply committed to shemiras Torah u'mitzvos.
And finally, your observed genius at never, ever grasping the point makes it impossible to discuss Torah with you. It is an exercise in futility.
I thought the satirical intent was clear.
ReplyDelete@Kiskeh
ReplyDelete1). If you claim I always get the wrong end of the stick etc, it implies that you always and automatically get the right end. But you have not proven this to be the case.
2) זיוף התורה is your allegation - but this implies you know the torah perfectly. However, I am not convinced of anything nearing that. And how do you know which is the "right side"? By taking an opposite view from me?
3) I do not hate an entire community of Shemiras ha Torah. I disagree (whether that is worth anything or not) with extremism . I also work on admitting to my mistakes when either they are shown to me, or I realise them later on. Sometimes I have gotten caught up in other peoples' controversies, and I am now trying to avoid doing that.
Your last point is your prerogative. however, Chaim for example, who has probably argued with me on more occasions than anyone else, is open to discussion, and sometimes persuasive in his arguments, or is persuaded (at least by DT).
The current discussion on porn is a good example, since I am now moving to a direction of being chozer or partially chozer on my initial argument - and it is largely due to the further discussion on here regarding the thought being worse than the act.
where all non-charedim are bad
ReplyDeleteEvidence, my dear?
especially if they carry the title of Rosh Yeshiva or Rov
Evidence, my dear?
Again, what precisely is your point?
DT, it does not matter what the benefit or whether or not you display a warning beforehand. You have no right whatsoever posting these videos on a "Torah" website and are machshil the rabbim. There is nothing to discuss. Either take them down or take down the word Daas or the word Torah. I am giving you the benefit of the doubt that you have not gone all of the videos, which in and of itself is a tremendous avla.
ReplyDelete1) No it doesn't imply that. Your wrong-headed argument inadvertently bolsters my point.
ReplyDelete2) You don't know what זיוף התורה means, evidently.
3) I've read enough of your comments to recognize your extreme distaste for chareidim, and your eagerness to disparage them.
Sorry, Stanley, I'm not accepting the assignment of showing proof by collecting Eddie comments. I've been reading here long enough to form a very clear opinion. You disagree? Fine with me.
ReplyDelete@Nat these were submitted by a well known Talmid chachom and I am relying on his judgment
ReplyDeleteOh, a well-known Talmid Chachom? I guess everything's fine then.
ReplyDeleteA Ted video is somehow assur?
ReplyDeleteActually the discussion of the effects on the brain of the topic in hand are a modern discussion of the very divrei Chazal and Rambam which we have been analysing here - ie the thought of an issur and the damage done tot he sechel from it!
RDE, the videos were submitted only by a commentor here.
ReplyDeleteNat, what's on the video that's objectionable?
ReplyDeletethe commentator is a talmid chachom that I know
ReplyDeleteIt wasn't the TED video. It was the accompanying links, which contain improper images. I am sure that the important content of those links could have been copied and pasted into a word file without inclusion of the improper images. Or would that have been bittul Torah for the "Talmid Chachom" that you are relying on?
ReplyDeleteNat, let me just see where your logic leads to:
ReplyDeletea) to ban pornography per se, which is halachically correct
b) to ban scientific discussion of pornography's negative side effects
thus, should we also ban discussing the ban on pornography, since it might lead to people looking at pornography as a valid option?
In fact, a similar line of though already exists in another area. there was a conference in England called "Limmud", where different streams of Judaism, ie non Orthodox as well as some Orthodox were present. Now, the Orthodox Chief Rabbi spoke at this conference, and was vilified by his Hareidi (and even right wing MO) colleagues for being present. This ws not because he said anything treif, (or pornographic), but because his mere presence at the conference allegedly gave respectabilty to the non Orthodox streams which he was opposed to.
This is fallacious logic (even if it is used by Talmide hachamim). therefore, by the same token, even partaking in this blog or discussion would allegedly give legitimacy to pornography as an alternative lifestyle option 9which is doesnt).
Eddie, here's an idea. How about not banning any of the above, but rather editing out a couple pictures of naked women from the otherwise important information that needs to be dispersed? Is that logical enough for you?
ReplyDelete@Nat - which links lead to such pictures?
ReplyDeleteYour
ReplyDeleteBrain on Porn 6 part youtube playlist (a detailed scientific
explanation on pornography addiction and its impact on the brain):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?...
OK, Nat, I am sorry, i didnt click to any porn links, so if there were such links then I am in agreement with you!
ReplyDeletejust watched it - just had diagrams
ReplyDeleteWhile I can't deny the idea of viewing pornography is perhaps sinful it is still only a prelude to a sin. Downloading or viewing illegal content is worse. The fate of the great flood was sealed by rampant theft. If we view certain routine practices as problematic and teach people to avoid them then perhaps we can all work ourselves the level of keeping our eyes where they are supposed to be. Keeping our mouths shut when we can't resist the temptation to say something we should not be saying is far more important than keeping away from inappropriate imagery. We need to prioritize the problems and deal with them systematically.
ReplyDeleteThere were more than diagrams, and I see that you took down the link, so thank you.
ReplyDeleteI think that your head got screwed on backwards this morning. Please have it fixed.
ReplyDeleteIt's the other way around. It is not at all pashut that illicitly obtaining digital content is a violation of the Torah commandment against theft. It is a davar pashut that viewing pornography violates a Biblical commandment. It's not just a prelude to sin. It is itself a sin.
ReplyDeleteone more thing about what you said is that no amount of teshuva for what you said is "mechaper" until you ask for "mechila" - but I will do you a favor and offer you an unconditional "mechila" so it shouldn't be a source of "agmas nefesh" to you when it time for "din v'chesbon"
ReplyDeleteIntangible goods are not considered to be a property under halacha.
ReplyDeleteViewing porn is not "perhaps sinful", it is definitely very sinful. On its own even without it being a prelude to anything else. This requires a high priority in fighting.
ReplyDeleteDownloading pirated software or contents falls under "hasagas gvul" not theft.
Please explain what is and isn't a "davar pashut" otherwise your comment is meaningless.
ReplyDeleteOh, b/c I didn't identify the lav, the comment is without "meaning?" I don't think so. Do you know the meaning of "meaningless?"
In any case, the lav is ונשמרתם מכל דבר רע -- see Avodah Zarah 20a and 20b. There are many more mareh mekomos on this, but I'll let you sweat for them your own self.
It's not even clear that it's hasagas gvul if it's for personal use.
ReplyDeleteyou just proved my point about rationalizing theft. furthermore cite the source of what you are saying and then you may enter into a discussion.
ReplyDeletenot enough - when you challenge someone (and try to embarrass them) be prepared to back it up on your own. when i see the bottom line halachah from you - at that point you will be eligible to enter into this discussion. hillel had most of the debates ruled in his favor since he listened to the other person's point of view. you have yet to present support for your point of view. i can do the same by making obscure references and saying that there are "mareh mekomos". by engaging onaas dibbur in your comment i can definitely say now that your words are meaningless. i will offer the same unconditional mechila to you as I did to Nat so that it shouldn't be a source of "agmas nefesh" to you when it is time for "din v'chesbon". name me one mareh makom that allows you to speak in a disrespectful manner to people that you disagree with.
ReplyDeleteThe determination would be whether you would have purchased the product otherwise, had you not copied it.
ReplyDeleteso you must believe that "geneivos da'as" is mutar?
ReplyDeleteone more is that you and Nat completely proved my point about trampling on "lavim" in the torah while trying to prevent the violation of others. In your attempts to prove me wrong you tried to embarrass me - which is clearly forbidden
ReplyDeleteMoe, i am curious to understand the focus of this part of the discussion - are u referring to downloading software Unlicensed) such as MS word, or to doing the same with movies, whether regular or XXX?
ReplyDeleteAnd when you speak of property, are u discussing the issur or hasagat gvul or regular gneiva?
Finally (sorry, one of my tangents again) - there is a legal concept of intellectual property. This could be a book or sefer that is copyrighted, or music or design , or a molecule - eg a new medicine. These are intellectual property, which the inventor , author etc has legal rights to. But are you suggesting that in halacha they do not? thanks and kol tuv!
you should be clear in your classification of what is a lav and what is not. the passage you cite is a positive commandment and im pretty sure your attempt to disrespect me falls under the very thing (among many other actual lavim) that you cited in your attempt to embarrass me - ironic inst it.
ReplyDeleteGeneivos da'as has nothing to do with this issue.
ReplyDeleteAgain, it has nothing to do with theft. Cite any halachic source you think exists that intangible music or images can be "stolen". Maybe no one is allowed to even look at the beauty of your garden unless you give them permission, otherwise they are "stealing" from you by looking at your property.
ReplyDeleteNo idea what you're talking about. You're the one who described my informative, perfectly intelligible comment as "meaningless," so quit whining.
ReplyDeleteA pasuk in the Torah is "obscure?" A Gemara is "obscure?" Yours is not a serious response.
ReplyDeleteIn your attempts to prove me wrong you tried to embarrass me
ReplyDeleteHow?
This is what you said: We need to prioritize the problems and deal with them systematically.
Tell me that this was not intended to permit certain behaviors that the Rambam rules that if it is necessary for saving a man's life, it is still prohibited. No healing. No alternative. The example is when he needs to hear a prohibited woman's voice in order to heal, without even seeing her.
Micheal,
ReplyDeleteWhy are you trying to shame Moe Ginsberg. Your ad hominem does not advance your claims. You are just as wrong as before.
You are clearly a fool and have already embarrassed yourself with your comments.
ReplyDeleteIt appears you don't know what geneivas daas is.
ReplyDeleteMoe, I just realised that you are named after a retail store in the USA!
ReplyDeleteDepends how you define intangibles assets, this is about an accounting convention. if , for example, you were to copy DT's book, and post it on scribd or sell on amazon, it would be theft in secular law, and I am pretty sure he would have a case in a BD. If you sing a song written by a pop star at a Barmitzvah, there will probably not be a problem, but if you record it and sell it on CDs in a store (eg Ginsburgs), again you will have legal problems. Now, i am interested to know halachos of intellectual property (IP)>
2 quick porn related points:
ReplyDelete1) It just occurred to me that in previous centuries, western art was famous for paintings and statues of naked bodies. How did the poskim deal with these issues (separate from the issue of whether the pesels were avodah zarah).
2) There was a few years ago a TV show about the porn business in Los Angeles, and the producers were often Jewish, obviously not frum. However, in a free market, would it be assur, theoretically for a yid to be involved in the business side of that "industry"? Or the legal side for example!
http://he.wikisource.org/wiki/%D7%A8%D7%9E%D7%91%22%D7%9D_%D7%94%D7%9C%D7%9B%D7%95%D7%AA_%D7%90%D7%99%D7%A1%D7%95%D7%A8%D7%99_%D7%91%D7%99%D7%90%D7%94_%D7%9B%D7%90_%D7%9B%D7%91
ReplyDeleteit is still only a prelude to a sin.
ReplyDeleteרמב"ם הלכות איסורי ביאה פרק כא ב
העושה דבר מחוקות אלו הרי הוא חשוד על העריות ואסור לאדם לקרוץ בידיו וברגליו או לרמוז בעיניו לאחת מן העריות או לשחוק עמה או להקל ראש ואפילו להריח בשמים שעליה או להביט ביפיה אסור ומכין למתכוין לדבר זה מכת מרדות והמסתכל אפילו באצבע קטנה של אשה ונתכוון להנות כמי שנסתכל במקום התורף ואפילו לשמוע קול הערוה או לראות שערה אסור.
The BD case on selling copies of his book would be hasagas gvul, not theft.
ReplyDeleteonce again you made your attack on my comment personal without adding anything intelligent to the converrsation
ReplyDeleteonce again "onas devarim" - attack my comment and not me - if you were a true scholar you would not be attacking me
ReplyDeleteyou cited the gemara and the pasuk and used it to personally attack me - if you want to the discuss the ramfications of the gemara and the pasuk please do so in your comment
ReplyDeleteplease enlighten me
ReplyDeletei made no claim - i suggested an alternative approach at solving a problem - I am just a wrong as before? a bold statement - please address my claim point by point and point put out where i am wrong instead making a claim without presenting an argument.
ReplyDeletei asked moe a question without any intent to shame him
your point is well taken - it doesnt excuse my mistake of trying to fend off personal attacks nor does it validate those personal attacks on me - my original point was to suggest that is something wrong with the process and how people trample on very important things in the zeal to prevent passive (and highly subjective) violations - my suggestion was that teaching children to be wary of commonplace active violations would build towards an ideal that revolves around not looking at things that we shouldn't. it was a suggestion and not intended in a way to permit the very thing that is the subject of this entire discussion
ReplyDeleteHonesty, thanks for that. Let me point out that I personally think it is asur gamur to be involved in that "business", and I simply would refer to "Kedoshim tiheyu", and various other issurim. But I am trying to get into specific halachas on this subject.
ReplyDeleteA few years ago there was some scandal as to how some money laundering had gotten into Yeshivos, (that means money from drugs, crime, znus etc.). At the time R' Steinsaltz was reported to have said that whilst it is assur to bring money of znus to the Temple, it does not apply to yeshivot. This is the same Steinsaltz of the reputed Talmud editions.
I was /am not convinced by his argument. But let's say you are a lawyer and you deal with certain aspects of that business, or an accountant who keeps books for them...
Never attacked you, although you are absolutely deserving of such. No interest in discussing anything further with you.
ReplyDeleteI'm talking about copying software, books, music, etc. Nothing to do with xxx. I'm speaking from a halachic perspective only. If it would cause the intellectual property owner a loss in profit it would likely be assur due to hasagas gvul (which is a different issur than geneiva.)
ReplyDeleteSorry, I'm done with you. Enlighten yourself.
ReplyDeleteGOOGLE: DISNEY PORN
ReplyDeleteYour childhood cartoon characters are ALL doing PORN, thanks to the NEW JEW CEO.
BETHSHEBA WAS THE FIRST PORN STAR & DAVID WAS HER FIRST CLIENT.
ReplyDeleteThink about it!
GOOGLE: RED TUBE!
ReplyDeleteIts all about Bol-she-vicks
Who would you like to look at:
ReplyDeleteVicki Polin or Nina Hartley?
IF A GENTILE LOSES HIS DVD OF NINA HARTLEY, DO YOU RETURN IT TO THEM?
ReplyDeleteQuestions and Answers
Question: Publication date: 31-10-2005
Title: Returning a lost item to a gentile or secular Jew
Content: According to Halacha, should one return a lost item to a secular Jew or to a gentile?
Ephraim Speigelman
Answer: Publication date: 31-10-2005
Title: Returning a lost item to a gentile or secular Jew
Content: Dear Ephraim,
It is forbidden to return a lost item to a gentile or to a secular Jew. (Not only is there no commandment to do so, there is a prohibition against it.) We have cited, in the essay Morality in Halacha, and we will bring here the halachic ruling of the Shulchan Aruch (Choshen Mishpat 266:1-2):
1. A gentile's loss -- "The loss of an idolater is permitted [one should not return it], as it is written, 'The loss of your brother' [the gentile is not your brother], and one who returns it has committed a transgression."
2. A secular person's loss -- "One is forbidden to return lost items to a Jew who publicly desecrates the Sabbath."
MOSES "DOWNLOADED" THE 42 PRINCIPLES OF MAAT & PRODUCED THE 10 COMMANDMENTS FROM THEM.
ReplyDeleteOK?
CHECK IT OUT!