Received this letter today with permission to post it. Any constructive suggestions welcome. I don't deal with this type of assessment - and I am not sure it is even is valid. Therefore I think the family needs to be informed as a first step - and the father evaluated by an experienced professional. Since he hasn't molested anybody recently - there is no requirement either according to halacha or secular law to report him. The issue is entirely whether he is dangerous.
[Update 11/16/2011]. I discussed this issue with a number of psychologists who deal with abuse. The consensus was that while testing can be useful - there in no test which can establish that a person is not a threat. So while it does happen that an abuser stops - it is difficult to determine whether a particular abuser has permanently stopped and is no longer a danger. Often it simply means that he choses his victims more carefully so that he doesn't get caught. Therefore this abuser can not be trusted and care must always be taken not to leave him alone with children. So while there is no requirement to report him to the police in the absence of any known abuse in many years - he is a major concern. However how to inform others is not a simple matter - especially where no one is willing to file a complaint. Therefore an expert in child abuse should be consulted for advice how to proceed. It is important to know that sometimes an abuser will abstain for 20 or 30 years and then start again.
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Dear Rabbi Eidensohn,I am writing because of the work you have done into the problem of pedophilia, etc. My question is as follows.
A (female) student/friend of mine was incested as a child by her father, a rabbi from a prominent Chassidic family. She knows of cousins who were also abused by him, many years earlier, when he was still a bochur. (These cousins include two women and a man). She (my student) has reason to believe that her brother and another sister were also incested. My student is now over forty and the abuse occurred between age 2 and 12.; Her father admitted to it. Until last night she had not spoken with anyone in the family about it (except her mother).
My friend has distanced herself from her family (gently but firmly with no explanation) starting about 10 years ago, but in the course of her own healing process she realized that her nieces and nephews are likely in danger for the scientific research suggests that a pedophile rarely ceases his predatory behavior at his own initiative, even in elder years (her father is probably in his late sixties). So yesterday she spoke with her brother, and told him her story, and charged him with informing their other siblings to be cautious with their children and to not leave them alone on any regular basis, with their grandfather.
The brother took it in, and then said that there is this therapist who gives people a test that is supposed to distinguish between pedophiles who are likely to be still dangerous and those who are probably not. He wants to ask his father to take this test to see if it is really necessary to inform his siblings. (Also if his father is really a danger than maybe he must inform the next generation his own children, nieces and nephews to watch their children).
My question is,: Do you know anything about this test. Do you think it is reliable. What if the perpetrator lies about the extent of his previous offences, can it detect that. Do you know about this therapist. Is there someone you can refer me to who might help me sort this out. My friend/student does not want to be involved any more. She feels like she did her bit by telling her brother, and feels that further involvement would be harmful to her, so she has dropped the ball in my court.
Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated. Many thanks
There is no such thing as curing a pedophile unless his sick desires are removed through castration, chemical or otherwise.
ReplyDeleteI am surprised that Rav Eidensohn pronounces there is no danger. It is very likely that the man is molesting strangers unknown to the daughter. Pedophiles who don't get caught are usually shrewd and know who to target kids in a way so that they don't get caught. When the rumors started regarding Kolko, he switched to children from broken homes who were easier to intimidate into silence.
I am surprised that Rav Eidensohn pronounces there is no danger
ReplyDelete============
I am surprised you say this because that is not what I wrote. I said there is no requirement to report him - statute of limitations as well as no who is filing a complaint and mandatory reporting laws don't apply. But then I stated he needs to be evaluated as to whether he is dangerous.
That is the main issue - not how to punish him for past deeds.
The family needs to assume that he is dangerous and take appropriate protective measurses - but a professional needs to be consulted.
It is accepted in both the psychiatric and legal communities here in the US that there are recidivism risk assessment tests that are of value.
ReplyDeleteE.g. see this inventory of such tools. However, all they do is let you better assess risk, not tell you with certainty whether or not this particular person has "recovered". But if the risk is low enough, how is this person different than anyone else you can't mind-read? Any new person in shul is also an unknown...
I'm a bit suprised at the header in the blog ("since he has not molested anybody" - how do you know?????) and at the answer to the comment.
ReplyDelete"Is a parent who had incestual relations - decades ago - still a danger to family?"
ReplyDeleteIf there's been nothing for DECADES, then the threat is in all likelihood long gone, and din rodef certainly does not apply.
Instead of asking for advice on a public forum, do the correct thing - call a professional and ask them directly.
ReplyDeleteDon't waste any time when a family is at risk!
Family members should be advised to exercise caution, regardless of whether a psych evaluation is done, and whatever the findings.
ReplyDeleteAn investigator can also be hired to do a surveillance - monitor his daily activities, etc.
Must agree with those who say that the person writing this letter must seek professional help and guidance from reliable mental health practitioners. Then follow their guidelines no less than one would follow the guidelines of top cardiologists if serious heart problems were found or existed in the family. Doing an online "survey" won't get anything done.
ReplyDeleteThe "real" issue is perhaps that this subject is being raised at all. Unfortunately there is a lot of sexual depravity and misconduct (whatever the technical terms are for these conditions, and they do exist) within the Haredi world and the Hasidic world.
There is a vast "dark side" underground that from time to time one hears about episodes but they are easily dismissed and covered up. So perhaps the writer of this letter, perhaps not consciously even, is removing a veil from a very, very "touchy" disturbing subject that is not really dealt with.
Rabbis or Rebbes are not immune to sexual perversions, their yetzer horas are just as "functional" as any other human being who go through all sorts of temptations, trials and tribulations.
I think that there is no question that someone who regularly abused his children over 10 years constitutes a danger, even if the victim is not aware of any case in the present. Chances are that there are cases, and that they do not know about it.
ReplyDeleteDanger means risk, not certainty, so we definitely have to say that there is DANGER for younger family members.
PS: No, I do not think that such a "test" can eliminate the risk.
ReplyDeleteThis is the part which is hard for me to understand. Doesn't Torah change a person for the better? How can it be we hear such stories almost on a daily basis? What is the use of learning if it doesn't change you for the better?
ReplyDeleteMy daughter BH just got divorced, and it only cost me a little over $18,000. Extortion is considered normal nowadays. And the father is a mashgiach but had no problem of taking money which doesn't belong to him.
There is an excelent therapist in Maryland named Dr. John Gershefsky. He told me about an inpatient week long evaluation of alleged offenders that was put together by the Catholic Church after it became necessary. Anyone in a position of power with adults or children in the church who is accused of any kind of abuse is required to undergo the evaluation in order to continue to counsel. I know Dr. G. personally and trust him. He said that he thought the evaluation was excellent as the alleged perp is seen by at least four separate therapists...who then come up with a recommendation together as to whether the person should be allowed around children or not. Pedophiles are notoriously charming, engaging, and very manipulative. Seeing any ONE therapist a few times will not answer the question. We do NOT know that nothing has happened in decades, all we know is that nothing is known. Most victims never speak up, especially young children. Please let me know if you would like more info in how to contact Dr. G. I know alleged perps in Israel and all over the world who were flown to the U.S. to be evaluated in this program. Dr. G. told me that the only loophole is that after a few years the church sometimes assumes that the danger is past and re-institutes an alleged perp. causing more victims. This victims father is a repeated offender of both boys and girls and is not the type who can typically stop on their own. My friends father attempted to molest his granddaughter at eighty years old in a wheelchair! She had assumed he no longer posed a threat.
ReplyDeleteSam,
ReplyDeleteYours is a good question. That's the topic I try to address in an essay in our host's vol I on abuse. There is an on-line copy here.
-micha
To address Sam's question, there was a bochur in NY who horeved tremendously in learning. He did not have any deviant desires. His desires would be considered normal. He felt that whenever he walked out in NY's streets however he had uncontrollable desires. He tried to act on those desires but was not successful, due to what Chazal say that Torah umitzvos are a zchus that act as a shield. He went to Rav Pam and someone older and bigger in learning than Rav Pam. Rav Pam said that despite tremendous horeving, the gass still has the ability to entice someone to sin. The older gadol told the bochur to go learn in a secluded yeshiva away from the street. One of the Telzer roshei yeshiva said the kavana of the Anshei kneses Hagedola when they composed the nusach Hatefila "pada Hashem es Yaakov ugealo miyad chazak mimenu" goes on these times that the gass is stronger than us. We need to daven to be saved because learning is not enough in this dor.
ReplyDeleteNow imagine if someone has deviant desires that are a sickness and even less under control.
http://www.crainsnewyork.com/article/20111106/HEALTH_CARE/111109928
ReplyDeleteWhy are State officials concerned about Flatbush Hatzolah macher Steve Zakheim buying Peninsula Hospital? It's not just because he's a convicted sex offender.
Sam:
ReplyDelete>This is the part which is hard for me to understand. Doesn't Torah change a person for the better? How can it be we hear such stories almost on a daily basis? What is the use of learning if it doesn't change you for the better?<
Sorry to hear about your daughter's divorce and the pain it caused (re the shakedown).
Re your comment above: I noticed years ago that most goyim -- even ones eith many tatoos and earings -- semed to hold the door open for the person behind them at the convenience store while many (most?) frum people did not. That strted my soulsearching odyssey to the point where I hardly consider myself orthodox anymore.
Sad but true...
Dear Sam,
ReplyDeleteas long as one does not acknowledge any addiction they might have, it makes no difference how much Torah they learn and how many Mitzvos they do. THEY ARE STILL ADDICTED. Not a complicated idea.
More along JG's lines... mitzvos are tools for becoming the person Hashem wants you to become. But if you do nothing to actively pursue that goal... What value is there in a hammer in the hands of someone who isn't building anything?
ReplyDeleteI titled the aforementioned essay "Watering our Weeds" in reference to something the Vilna Gaon taught: Torah is like water. If you water your garden, you will have beautiful flowers. But only if you weed your garden and plant flowers. If you water an unprepared lot, all you will get is really tall weeds.
Can someone please relate, especially in our day, why the second part of the פסוק seems to attract so little attention in the context:
ReplyDeleteוכל ישראל ישמעו ויראו ולא יזידון עוד
I am aware that the perpetrator(s) ordinarily are listed as:
המסית, ובן סורר ומורה, וזקן ממרא, ועדים זוממין
I ask, though, whether under the rubric of קדושים תהיו we should not allow such things to slumber in silence?
Re: the "Update":
ReplyDelete"So while there is no requirement to report him to the police in the absence of any known abuse in many years"
Actually, not only is their no halachic requirement, it is actually halachicly forbiddento moser (report) him in such a case. It is only permissible when there is an obvious danger he may strike. After being clean, a good Yid, for 20 - 30 years, no such clear danger exists.
Englishman said...
ReplyDeleteRe: the "Update":
"So while there is no requirement to report him to the police in the absence of any known abuse in many years"
Actually, not only is their no halachic requirement, it is actually halachicly forbiddento moser (report) him in such a case. It is only permissible when there is an obvious danger he may strike. After being clean, a good Yid, for 20 - 30 years, no such clear danger exists.
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You are right if it has been clearly established that he has done nothing.However without clear knowledge it is legitimate to suspect him and to take precautions. In other words it is not clear that he has regained his chezkas kashrus and therefore it is unclear if there is a prohibition of mesira. However the statute of limitations prevent charging him with a crime and no one wants to bring charges it. Under Jewish law there is no power to do anything anyway.
This is the key statement from what you have added and it must be noted:
ReplyDelete"an expert in child abuse should be consulted for advice how to proceed"
"However how to inform others is not a simple matter - especially where no one is willing to file a complaint."
ReplyDeleteWhat are the main issues here: Loshon Hara, the siblings horror at hearing this new about their father, the possibility this might also trigger a memory for them, disrespect of father. What are the primary concerns here.
TaF writes: What are the main issues here: Loshon Hara, the siblings horror at hearing this new about their father, the possibility this might also trigger a memory for them, disrespect of father....
ReplyDeleteThere is also the possibility they hear this about their father and there is nothing for them to remember because he isn't among the recidivists. Someone who sinned as a teen or a young man who is now in his 50s or 60s is losing the respect of his children for something he did "decades ago"?
Why this assumption that once guilty always guilty? There is a real risk, and the risk needs to be dealt with. But worrying about the risk is different than taking guilt as a fact. (A fundamental and recurring theme in hilkhos Lashon Hara.)
Someone who has incestual relations with a daughter from age 2 over 10 years deserves no respect from his (other) children.
ReplyDeleteIn response to Micha's comment,
ReplyDeleteSomeone who sinned as a teen or a young man who is now in his 50s or 60s is losing the respect of his children for something he did "decades ago"?
Why this assumption that once guilty always guilty? There is a real risk, and the risk needs to be dealt with. But worrying about the risk is different than taking guilt as a fact. (A fundamental and recurring theme in hilkhos Lashon Hara.)
May I share another perspective. Perpetrators usually are far from being fully- upstanding members of society. Even if they originally aren't psychopaths, (though it is hard to imagine how one can harm his daughter is such a severe manner,and not be a psychopath,) yet by choosing to act out the way they do, and then remaining silent about it, pretending that they are ok, that in and of itself turns them into psychopaths.
This is in Frum father, who leads Shabbos Tables, and Pesach Sedarim, supposedly aiming to instill Jewish Values into his children, while he is fully aware that that he is just so full of hypocricy.
I agree that it would be really difficult for the children to assimalate this information. But I really don't feel one needs to worry at all about this unfortunate father loosing the respect of his children. Can't you see how he is a horrible imposter, attending PTA meetings, leading his kids under the Chupah, and all along acting like a holy individual who is concerned with the spirtual welfare of his children, "for Hashem's sake."
And dare I add, that all who are fooled by this hypicrate actually risk there own spiritual senstivies becoming dulled.
A community who really believes in the values they are proposing they beleive in, i.e how important children are, and how gravely important G=d's Halachas are, really should be outraged about this father's actions, and not have space to worry about his "kavod." No less then the outrage our community showed against Levi Aron, or the guy who sold us Treife Meat in Monsey, (and can we even compare the spiritual damage caused by eating Triefe to the damage done to an innocent child who is forced to transgress one of the three cardianl sins.)
" Perpetrators usually are far from being fully- upstanding members of society."
ReplyDeleteYour conclusion is inherent in this assumption, and I do not share your assumption. I fail to believe that a person at 50 or 60 is necessarily the same person they were at 20. For that matter, I am not sure how Judaism makes any sense to someone who doesn't believe people can change. This is the time scale of "decades ago", large fractions of a lifetime.
So again, unless you can document this assumption, I remain convinced that the usual rule of deal with the risk of danger but do not assume definite guilt applies here too.
Micha, you didn't seem to get my point.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you that people can and do change, and that that is an important concept in Yiddishkeit. However,eaqually important and basic concept in Yiddishkeit is that our actions have reprecussions.
When a father sexually abuses his daughter he nartaually forfiets the kavod we usually have for fathers. He ceases to be a devoted caring father, and in regards to this daughter he turns into her rapist. This is just one aspect of this heneous crime that makes it so dispicable, and yes I do feel the father is a psychopath at the time that he commits this crime.
Now, I do believe people can change, and let us say this father never ever abuses another child, so I guess you feel he is a changed person. But the fact remains, for this daughter this father is still her rapist, and ever time she sees her father, especailly since her father keeps this all a secret and continues to play the role of a loving father to the world, this daughter feels extremely violated over and over again.
Now a person who lives with the knowledge that he has incested his daughter, thus she is suffering horribly because of his actions, yet he continues to act as if nothing has happened, in my opinon this silence too is the nature of a psychopath, (even if he stops abusing.)
Can't you see it from the daughter's perspective? Her father is this Shiene Yid, demanding kavod as a devoted father, and she knows the truth, that he is simply an imposter!
Actually, I would say that were the father on a true Teshuvah path, then after noticing what he has done, and the horrible effects of his actions, (which is an intrisic step in Teshuvah,) this father should be taking steps on his own to make sure he can never do this again, by either making sure on his own never to seclude himself with a child again, or by telling a family member so that they can keep an eye on him. And it would be only fitting for him to relate these steps he has taken to the abused daughter, so that she can rest assured that it will never happen again.
I know this all sounds like so embarrasing for the father, but sorry, the fact is OUR ACTIONS HAVE REPROCUSSION, AND THE ACTION WE ARE SPEAKING ABOUT HAS EXTREME REPRUCUSSIONS, as can be seen by the punishment the Torah ascribes to this sin, and by the horrible effect it has on the victim.
Now, I don't beleive we need to be Hashem's policemen and just go out there and embarress every perpetrator, but when you are contemplating warning the siblings because he might still be a danger, and you want to make sure nobody else will get hurt, to be asked to be concerned about the father's kavod at this point, a kavod that he doesn't deserve in the first place, that I feel is totally misguided.
I just have to say thank you to "Don't Defend..." for your well put comment esp ref to the victim's perspective.
ReplyDeleteThe effects that this issue causes to child victims is so grave that we must not ever take chances. If an adult has ever violated a child, and esp if he did not get punished for it, and certainly if he doesn't admit or confess, he is a serious danger and the family most certainly should be notified.
Why keep secrets like this? What do you gain? Are you willing to risk those other children? And if not for these exact situations, then what is hilchos shmiras haloshen for anyway? This is toeles of pikuach nefesh!