Five Towns Jewish Times
For many Orthodox Jews, it has been a very trying two months.
The confluence of the threefold factors of the shock at the appalling scandal, the silence of those who should not have been silent, and the idea of the acceptance of such lewd behavior by leading Rabbonim was too much for many to stomach. Thankfully, the issues have been put to rest this past Sunday evening, with the signing of a notarized contract by Leib Tropper.
The results were not, by any means, a foregone conclusion. The progression of events went as follows:
Last Tuesday afternoon, leading Rabbinic figures in Monsey met. That meeting was put together by Rabbi Dovid Ribiat and was chaired by one of the most senior Roshei Yeshiva in Monsey, HaGaon HaRav Moshe Green Shlita, Rosh Yeshiva of Yeshiva D’Monsey. [...]
============================================
This is a link to the actual documents tropper signed
For many Orthodox Jews, it has been a very trying two months.
The confluence of the threefold factors of the shock at the appalling scandal, the silence of those who should not have been silent, and the idea of the acceptance of such lewd behavior by leading Rabbonim was too much for many to stomach. Thankfully, the issues have been put to rest this past Sunday evening, with the signing of a notarized contract by Leib Tropper.
The results were not, by any means, a foregone conclusion. The progression of events went as follows:
Last Tuesday afternoon, leading Rabbinic figures in Monsey met. That meeting was put together by Rabbi Dovid Ribiat and was chaired by one of the most senior Roshei Yeshiva in Monsey, HaGaon HaRav Moshe Green Shlita, Rosh Yeshiva of Yeshiva D’Monsey. [...]
============================================
This is a link to the actual documents tropper signed
good
ReplyDeleteThe 5TJT headline is misleading, at best,
ReplyDeleteWhile many of the parties, including Tropper may want this story to be' put to rest' nothing could be further from the truth.
In reality, the investigations ought now just getting started.
How much money was paid to whom and in exchange for what? Why are not monies being returned? Will there be an accounting of what monies were spent by the recipients of Tropper's 'generosity' and will there be an open accounting of monies that will be spent in the future?
HOw much moniey did Tropper sopend in his defense and did any of the rabbonim he handed money to expend any money on his behalf?
Where is the complete accounting of Kol Yaakov assets and will any of those assets be transferred to Tropper prior his departure? Is there an agreement to transfer assets in the future? Who will be designated in charge of Kol Yaakov assets?
Have any monies been transferred by Tropper to anyone in the last few months? If so, who, why and in exchange for what?
Has Tropper agreed to have all his financial records, including tax returns, examined by an independent accounting firm so that there are no 'surprises' down the road?
Has the beis din been involved in any other negotiations with Tropper other than what they have publicly stated? Who did the negotiating? For how long? Were there any other 'deals' made?
How's that for starters?
I heard that the video released at Troppergate.com was the nail in the coffin that finally got Tropper to step down at the 11th hour, notice the coincidence that the video was released at about 5PM the Sunday that the Rabbi's convened.
ReplyDelete5TJT is full of itself with its pompousness and conceit. In how it subtly attacks Rabbonim whilst insinuating otherwise.
ReplyDeleteI wonder which is the worse aspect of troppergate?
ReplyDeleteThe money?
Bribes?
Perversion of halacha?
Gilui Arayos?
Growing up..just grow up and get the point...the ordeal is over!He has been asked to leave and move..what else do you want? get on with life...
ReplyDeletejustice said...
ReplyDeleteGrowing up..just grow up and get the point...the ordeal is over!He has been asked to leave and move..what else do you want? get on with life...
============
He got off easy considering what he did and no, it is not over. That is just wishful thinking.
Justice-
ReplyDeleteYou seem most disturbed by the questions I posed. I wonder why that is? Is there a reason my questions would throw you into a frenzy?
I'll concede to your request just as soon as you answer the questions I posed.
Are you so naive and out of touch to really believe this is over? Maybe of you click your heels 3 times...
Dear Rabbi Eidensohn:
ReplyDeleteThe work is not yet over. The next step is that EJF must be closed down.
Having now been shown that it was devised, designed and operated by a thoroughly corrupt individual, it reinforces the claim of Rabbonim and Morei Horah around the USA and Europe, that EJF's design, purpose and modus operandi were all a corrupt sham - undermining the age old ehrliche approach and process of the mesorah of Giyur K'Halacha for all generations!
It is time to remove the nonsensical fictitious notion of "universal" or centralized" geirus (accreditation?).
Since time immemorial all matters of kedusha (Gitten, Kiddushin, Geyrus) were in the hands of each city's Rabbonim and Dayanim - even when there was a great Beis Din in Yerushalayim.
Let us all individually and collectively strongly support the returning of Atarah L'Yoshna!
He got off easy considering what he did and no, it is not over. That is just wishful thinking.
ReplyDelete============
How isn't it over? What else do you expect? And how should he have been punished since you say he got off easy?
This not over.
ReplyDeleteGrowing up is correct as is R.Eidensohn.
FOLLOW THE MONEY.
And where are all the Rabbis of the Moetzes and others with heir public statement?
Just as a lesson in how not do to teshuvah, note that Tropper explicitly avoids confessing his chata'im, even what's supposedly (I didn't look) on public display on YouTube.
ReplyDeleteThe document states, "In not fulfilling the requirement of the Shulchan Aruch that a leader be pirko no’eh, I am permanently and irrevocably resigning from all positions..." He says he is resigning because a leader must be someone who "pirqo na'eh -- his reputation is pleasant". Nothing about actually being unfit for leadership because of his own behavior.
So, after all this, he's clinging to victimhood, not charatah. Very sad. Not the tzibbur's problem anymore, though.
-micha
Mr. Eidhelson,
ReplyDeleteyou want to see Tropper's blood on the streets of Monsey, this will not happen. You have made him into a hero. Thanks! He has more supporters than ever.
Why is everybody so happy? All this really says is that he must give up KY and leave Monsey. Monsey should dance this Purim. Nobody else. Isn't that kind of selfish on our part?
ReplyDeleteHe still has all his money and can move into any other neighborhood and start over. It will be up the that neighborhood to stop him. So he'll choose someplace that does not have a powerful rabbinate.
The Orthodox rabbinate still needs to rule on him before everyone forgets about him and he starts again.
I hope the people he hurt, the people their lives he destroyed, the converts he revokes their conversion, the parents who Tropper forbade his talmidim to see, the people their marriage and their shiduchim he broke and the others who were abused by the menuval feel some closure today.
ReplyDeleteUbiarta hara mekirbecha, vshem resahoyim irkav !
Kol Yaakov mentined. And life goes on per usual at EJF? No aplogy from the great ones now at EJF for defending and or endorsing Tropper?
ReplyDeleteNo mention of an investigatin into exactly these oter men are that ropper implicates on the tapes? Are these men still at EJF?
No investiatin into Orand or her quickie certificate despite these tapes? Anyone really believe she was coerced? She created this mess when she approached Tropper for thousands of dollors. She gets a reward that shames any and all potential converts to come in the wake of this chillul Hashem?
So if you dump a lot of sugar on the plate we won't notice the stench of rotting meat? It is time to raze te EJF building and clear away the real stench.
DT:
ReplyDeletegot off easy? would you or anyone want to have that same fate? worldwide Humiliation,stripped of all his money and rabbinical posts, relocating his family with this ugly scandal on his back to carry and the devastation to his children, grandchildren ect.For now it is over for LT and his family who will be in exile sharing a fate that NO ONE would desire..
WHO do you think you are to judge what one deserves? There is a din and cheshbon with the greatest of all JUDGES who knows and sees everything...
the other players got off scott free with one who got a bogus conversion and another in a mental ward(heavenly retribution)!
DT:
ReplyDeleteIn not fulfilling the requirement of Shulchan Aruch that a leader be “Pircho No’eh”,
What is the meaning of the term "Pircho No'eh "?
Tonny-
ReplyDeleteTo see Tropper as a hero after he has been run out of town on a rail indicates you are seriously out of touch with reality.
I wish you a refuah shelamah. Really.
Also, show a bit of derech eretz even even if you disagree. The author of this blog is Rav Eidenssohn, not Mr Eidensohn.
I agree with Eddie and Daas Torah; it is not over. Yes this looks like it might be major progress.
ReplyDeleteThere are major investigative issues about his corruption of others. Secondly, it is not clear what he has agreed not to do. In general such people move and go into the same business again. Finally, there is a remaining scandalous question: why was there no action before the release of the recordings?
The moral of the story is: "be a minuval gezunterheit, just don't get recorded." By this standard there were no bad guys before the invention of recording."
As for trusting Monsey to police itself: by now they have had major scandals involving chickens, gittin, geirus and kiruv.
Of course there's nothing about this in Yeshiva World or Cross Currents...yet. It's already far to late for them to maintain their credibility as reliable news sites.
ReplyDeleteI can't believe they think that if they don't report anything about EJF and Tropper (okay, CC ran one story but that was only to throw cold water on the furor) the problem will go away. All they are doing is driving the world over to the sites that tell you the real news. Daas Torah is catching up with them fast.
Thank you Dr. Eidensohn!
here are the documents that Tropper signed http://eternaljewishfraud.blogspot.com/2010/02/troppers-resignation-blow-by-blow.html
ReplyDeletefeel free to post it as a new post
Why does he have to leave Monsey?
ReplyDeleteI spoke with an insider and was under the impression Tropper wants to leave Monsey by choice. This article says that was imposed upon him. My question is: whats the halachic basis for this? I am not contending it I simply don't know and would like to.
http://online.barrons.com/article/SB126602914540245565.html
ReplyDeleteBarron's - Bill Alpert - Feb 13, 2010
Kaplan's Leor Energy bonanza is itself the subject of lawsuits in which his nephew, Guma Aguiar, alleges that Kaplan and attorney Natbony swindled Aguiar ...
Coincidence?
ReplyDeleteWolfgang has been involved in high end kosher catering (perhaps for EJF when only the best will do for fressers with discriminating palates like Tropper & the 92nd St Y crowd?)
Wolfgang is also an intermarried. His first marriage was to Barbara Lazeroff, a Jewish woman who grew up in the Bronx and his second marriage is to Gelila Assefa who is definitely Ethiopian and possibly Falasha via Israel.
http://www.nrn.com/article.aspx?menu_id=1368&id=379494
Tom Kaplan, senior managing partner of Wolfgang Puck Fine Dining Group.
Dave, you wrote "How isn't it over? What else do you expect? And how should he have been punished since you say he got off easy?"
ReplyDelete1. The moetzes Gedolei HaTorah haven't said a word. Why not? If they would have been the ones to have him sign this, it would have shut Tropper for good. Their Not signing this actually opens the door for him to say that in Monsey they think he's a sinner but in the general leadership they think he's fine.
2. I read that document he signed. There is apparently a financial package being worked out for him. Why is that? He can do much damage with the money he yields.
3. Get this straight Dave and friends. This is not about punishing Tropper. It's about stopping him forever. He should never again be allowed to be in a position of teaching again. Let him train to be a bookeeper or something. Let him spends his nights toiling in Torah and writing seforim. But keep him away, forever, from instructing people on how to live. This is to protect the rest of us.
I was once a talmid of his. He has erased all the great moral lessons he ever taught me. Hakoras Hatov?? Ha! He retroactively taught me that Torah is game to play with and control others with. He has erased the Tov. Nebach...
I feel bad for his wife, his ex-wife, his kids, and anyone that once felt close to him. This is not about punishing him. It's for the rest of Klal Yisroel.
Farshtei Dave?
Tropper will probably go to North Miami Beach.
ReplyDeleteIt flows downhill.
Anonymous Tonny S. said...
ReplyDeleteHe has more supporters than ever.
--------------------------------------
you mean he actually has a full minyan there now?
that is wonderful.
and in no time at all(25 years.)
he can now honestly say the yeshiva is growing.
it should continue to grow at such an accelerated pace.
Blogger Josh said...
ReplyDeleteThis not over.
Growing up is correct as is R.Eidensohn.
FOLLOW THE MONEY.
And where are all the Rabbis of the Moetzes and others with heir public statement
----------------------------
i know nobody wants to say this, but unfortunatly a certain rabbi from upstate ny seems to have been a major factor in the moetzes and others not coming out publicly.
said rabbi claims not to be supporting him in any manner but is largely perceived otherwise.
For JUSTICE who said: ..."would you or anyone want to have that same fate? worldwide Humiliation,stripped of all his money and rabbinical posts, relocating his family with this ugly scandal on his back to carry and the devastation to his children, grandchildren ect.For now it is over for LT and his family who will be in exile sharing a fate that NO ONE would desire..
ReplyDeleteWHO do you think you are to judge what one deserves? There is a din and cheshbon with the greatest of all JUDGES who knows and sees everything...
the other players got off scott free with one who got a bogus conversion and another in a mental ward(heavenly retribution)!
----------
Humiliation? Let's lok at humiliation! Potential female converts who were eiter dropped or left EJF as soon as te news broke about Tropper's romp in the hotel with ONE candidate. Humiliation - stripped of their good name and any chance of completing their conversin because they are now suspect in the sex games at EJF!! Can one of them face their community now? There is and will always be the cloud of suspicion on them! You want to alk about exile?!!!
WHO are you to defend him or EJF or EJF? Oh! Silly me! EJF was NOT mentioned in the punisment phase...right? It exists and is unharmed, just as are the oter 'players' - the men Tropper refers to on the tapes. Go find another cause mr. justice!!
Just wondering, what happens to his involvement with "Horizons"?
ReplyDeleteBen said: i know nobody wants to say this, but unfortunatly a certain rabbi from upstate ny . . .
ReplyDelete- - - - -
He was nothing in compariosn to a certain rabbi from staten island who came right out publicly and supported him - with svaros like - "He's only human" and "he surly did teshuva" etc.
Dissapointed said...
ReplyDeleteHe was nothing in compariosn to a certain rabbi from staten island who came right out publicly and supported him - with svaros like - "He's only human" and "he surly did teshuva" etc.
-----------------------------
the rabbi from staten island does not carry nearly the same respect as the one in upstate ny. at least in the yeshiva world.
additionally since he did not make any public pronouncements of support, it actually made things more complicated and much harder for the establishment (moetzes etc.) to disregard.
To Dr. Tom Kaplan:
ReplyDeleteWe hope someone points you to this request.
As you can readily ascertain, Leib Tropper's own peers have found him to be lacking in the qualities required of an Orthodox Jewish leader.
Also obvious is the fact that he did not utilize your generous endowments for their intended purpose. Instead, he used them for his own aggrandizement and other nefarious purposes.
Therefore, you have every right to demand the balance of your monies returned to you for use in real charitable endeavors.
As is readily apparent from posts on this and other Orthodox Jewish blogs, there is great anxiety that the fruits of your generosity will continue to be used as weapons against the gentler souls of our faith, and to catapult this man back to a position of power.
This, therefore, is a request that you use all means at your disposal to collect these monies and to end this sad chapter in our history.
May G-d bless you and give you strength.
Thank you for your attention.
Please DT, post what I am about to write, even if it hurts. I am not trying to harm klal yisroel. I am a former talmid of Tropper and I need the tzibburs help me in thinking this through... I suppose I now am the symbol of the fallout from Tropper. Here's my question:
ReplyDeleteIf 1. "a certain Rabbi from upstate" is helping Tropper out and another "Rabbi from Staten Island" is praising Tropper and assuming he did teshuva
and 2. both Rabbis' mosdos received big bucks from Tropper's coffers
and 3. both Rabbis are prominent members of a certain group of sages who lead us in moral matters
Is this the end of trusting our leaders in oral matters?
To add an important factor to my question:
ReplyDeleteSurely the members of the Moetzes understand that by remaining silent Tropper leaves Monsey and potentially continues his harm to others later on.
I am shocked!! Is this the Yiddishkeit I embraced when I became frum? How can they remain silent? (and how can someone on this blog call himself "justice" and try try to ignore this basic fact?)
the Monsey Tzadik said...
ReplyDeleteI hope the people he hurt, the people their lives he destroyed, the converts he revokes their conversion, the parents who Tropper forbade his talmidim to see, the people their marriage and their shiduchim he broke and the others who were abused by the menuval feel some closure today.
Ubiarta hara mekirbecha, vshem resahoyim irkav !
_________
Hardly the tone of a tzaddik!
Former Talmid: "Is this the end of trusting our leaders in oral matters?"
ReplyDeleteWho ever said we were supposed to trust "our leaders" rather than one's own personal rebbe? Unfortunately, while I found people to ask my she'eilos to (I needed more than one because my usual poseiq is too close of a friend for me to feel comfortable discussing taharas hamishpachah) I haven't really found a rebbe.
Instead I find myself clutching ever tighter to my rebbe's memory and in particular the inseperability of his Torah from his personal warmth. From dress and sartorial decisions (elements of that struggle in this post) to documenting my own personal shalsheles hamesorah. (I am at most 129 links away from Moshe Rebbeinu.)
But our host has one, and he trusts R' Sternbuch. Asei lekha rav -- if you can.
The general system of using the rumor mill to follow what "the gedolim hold" was bound to fail. It is too easily manipulable from the people (like Tropper) who can color what the gedolim think they know about the world beyond their four amos to the people who relay what they said.
-micha
Why is following the money so important? Just because he did something wrong in one area who says everything else he did is wrong? If he got 10 million - or 10 billions dollars from Tom Kaplan or whoever why can't he give it to whatever yeshiva he pleases or whomever he pleases, for that matter?
ReplyDeleteChecking the new revised Kol Yaakov website I see that Tropper sent last summer five talmidim to Congregation Adath Yisrael in San Francisco.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.kolyaakovtorahcenter.org/hakol/fall2009.htm
Where the rabbi, Joshua Strulowitz is a former TOURCH rabbi and a friend and associate of Rabbi Wender who is Shannon Original rabbi and part of the EJF original beis din list.
http://www.adathisraelsf.org/our_rabbi.html
follow the money? said...
ReplyDeleteWhy is following the money so important?
You must be trying very hard not to see this, or you are part of his PR group. If the leader of Iran or Aryan Nation gave money to selected yeshivas, would you you not investigate?
The reason we need to follow the money is that he corrupted people with this money. We see big names who defended him to the end, we see people trying to intimidate bais din for him, we see him finding those who can be corrupted and using them, we see him victimizing innocents while those who received his money kept silent or supported him against the innocents.
As we see from his being thrown out of KY, you can't have a yeshiva run by a corrupt Rosh Yeshiva and expect it to turn out uncrooked talmidim. Those who accepted his money (and we see this with EJF trying to stay alive) were willing to do anything to continue receiving his money. We need to look at all the decisions they made while receiving this money, publicize those decisions, and let the olam decide which decisions were likely tainted.
וּבַאֲבֹד רְשָׁעִים רִנָּה
ReplyDelete"why can't he give it to whatever yeshiva he pleases or whomever he pleases, for that matter?"
ReplyDeleteLet's see what happens in the court case with Guma's complaints about where the money went and then maybe we'll think some more about your question.
Worthless Kol Koreh without any signatures. Anyone could have made one up
ReplyDeleteTropperer Rebbbe
ReplyDeleteis RLT kkeping the miilions of dollars from donations?
He only resigned from the yeshiva but he still owns with Jacobs and Kahn Horizons Bais Achiezer
ReplyDeletewhich has $8,000,000 which he gets to keep and he is still able to bribe rabbis. Without the money from Bais Achiezer the yeshiva will fold.
To leave Monsey with $8,000,000 is not a punishment it is a double reward !!!
KolkisFraud said...
ReplyDeleteWorthless Kol Koreh without any signatures. Anyone could have made one up
The article said that it was never signed. It was written and tropper's friend who was involved told him it would be signed and publicized. This is why he made a deal instead.
Half the people in Monsey still know nothing about the whole affair. If the KK would have been published, all of Monsey would have to know.
Now tropper can tell those who know about it that he signed it for the good of the community as an act of self sacrifice. He probably won't enlighten those who don't know about it.
Interesting that the two Roshei Yeshiva closest to Tropper get to choose his successor.
ReplyDeleteInteresting as well that these two happen to be extraordinarily influential within the Moetzes and that the Moetzes hasn't said a peep about Tropper.
Good thing that Tropper hadn't ordained any women Rabbis, because THAT would have REALLY gotten him in deep trouble with the Moetzes.
Smart move.
I am a former talmid of Tropper and I need the tzibburs help me in thinking this through...
ReplyDeleteThe first thing you need to do is review whom you trust and why you trust them.
As is common for such manipulators, tropper played up some rabbonim as the do all and end all, even though they are not recognized as authorities by the mainstream yeshiva world. I won't list them here, but you probably know who he pushed. Sons of gedolim, sons of big poskim in Eretz Yisroel as poskim to go to here, etc.
I've heard KY bochurim saying they now need to go ask what to do from these people who tropper pushed them to. They might not be r'sho'im like him, but for the most part they are not gedolim and tzaddikim like he told his followers.
Examine their credentials yourself. Do not examine how they dress or how they hold themselves or their mannerisms. You were led astray by a con artist. It was in his best interest to send you to these people. Figure out why.
In case of doubt, go to those on the bais din that threw him out of Monsey. But don't go to his friend on the bais din, of course.
Not all rabbonim are crooks. The old rule of thumb used to be the ones who did not get involved in politics were the good guys. This psak might be an indication that the rules are about to change. You need to use your own daas to determine who is real.
Easier said than done, but life is like that.
http://chaptzem.blogspot.com/2005/04/factory-owner-fires-due-to-cloth-not.html
ReplyDeleteRabbi Schlesinger, the Tropper mole inside the beis din who compromised the din Torah according to Troppergate blog, seems to be one of the brothers in the infamous Schlesinger family from Williamsburg.
See the article and comments.
http://www.lohud.com/article/20100215/OPINION/2150315/1015/OPINION01/A-case-study-for-vaccination
ReplyDeleteRabbi David Eidensohn, a frequent Orthodox Jewish commentator on family issues, told The Journal News, "Any parent who doesn't get their child vaccinated is being foolish and endangering the entire community."
This whole Beis Din circus was tainted. An EJF beis din with a faculty member of Kol Yaakv. Another beis din with Rabbi Schlesinger.....
ReplyDeleteTropper signs a treif piece of paper - Orand receives one. They both win.
The money and control for Eternal Jewish Family comes through and from HORIZONS!!! You might also check and find out that Horizons owns the EJF website.
Bloggers, if you want a real story, follow the money as has been stated many times.
Tropper has lost nothing! Eternal Jewish Family AND Horizons has not been mentioned as part of the package. So, Tropper owns Horizons and maintains control of EJF.
This Beis Din was a side show, offering up just enough to give the impression they are taking back control of morality, ethics and Judaism. Take a good look at what has happened here and what remains intact. Just enough water to the dust and 'the good life' and corruption continues as usual.
The only thing different is that Tropper may get some sun on his pastey face in NMB, Fl.
Empty out EJF building and raze it! All of Tropper's associates are still there and being protected by the 'great ones'!
This probably won't get posted, but it seems that too many of the people who post here have way too much time on their hands.
ReplyDeleteTropper is toast.
The rest of you should get to the bais medrash and stop being bitul Torah!
Micha & Shqueeze,
ReplyDeleteYou're both missing the point. I understand the hierarchy. I realize Rav Reuven isn't Rav Moshe zt"l, and the R"Y of S. Fallberg isn't the Mashgiach of Lakewood, his father zt"l. Without giving away too much info about myself, let me just say I've been frum for quite a long time and LT never instructed me to listen to anyone, so don't confuse current events with what I'm asking.
Let me re-ask my question to the tzibbur:
Is there such a thing as leadership in klal yisroel? Was there ever? When did it end? Does it still exist. Can you prove it? Yes there are tzaddikim. I'm sure Rav Shternbach is great but I'm talking about people at the helm who allow a disease to fester because of ulterior motives.
How can it be that a larger more central and recognized rabbinic court isn't doing the same thing that this local one in Monsey is doing.
Shkoyach to Rav Shternbach, Micha. But last I knew, he wasn't recognized as the godol hador. Are there any dealing with this? Where's Rav Chaim Kanievsky, Where's the Noviminsker Rebbe (head of Moetzes GY in America)? Where's Rav YL Shteinman (or whoever has been pinned up as the ones who are on top)? Have they been informed of these goigs on? Are they taking a stand? Why not?
That was what I meant when I wrote earlier that I need to think this through with the tzibbur.
Tropper (and others who hopefully are fine) were trusted by me and my generation. They introduced us to Torah - but looking back I want to puke, to think that he ended up doing these things. And not just the immoral behavior, but the manipulation of people who were defenseless (or so he thought.)
And now I ask you the tzibbur, do we have no leadership? Am I left to think, many years after I trusted him (and his peers), that our religion is like the wild west? I'm lucky nothing bad ever happened to me, but if it did, well sorry... The perpetrators will go free? We're all too timid or want his money? Is this the Yiddishkeit I entered those years ago?
NOW do you understand the question?
Former Talmid-
ReplyDeleteThere is such a thing as leadership.
'Asay lecho Rave'.
Leadership in our communities are predicated on character and not identity.
Last names mean little. If you can find a manhig whose character you admire and wish to emulate, you have found a leader. Further, you can and should be close to others of fine character. The more mentors one has in life the better.
That is who we are as people. We admire and show loyalty to character. Name recognition, while nice, is less important.
It really is that simple.
Finally some quiet around here from the likes of "orthodoxjew" and the fanatical cult disciples of Tropper.
ReplyDelete... that our religion is like the wild west? I'm lucky nothing bad ever happened to me, but if it did, well sorry... The perpetrators will go free?
ReplyDeleteIt seems you are pressing for a direct answer. At this point in time, the answer is yes, unless you are affiliated with a recognized rabbinical authority of some stature. Most people just keep their heads down. Even when a public outcry takes a menuval down, there is usually no compensation to the victims.
But the other choice is centralized control of rabbinical authority, which in itself poses even greater dangers. As you can imagine, such a nexus of power would attract the slickest of the bad guys.
The acknowledged reason for this situation is that we don't have a Gadol Hador today. All the yeshiva world laments this. One of the results of this void is the wild west culture we live in. This is one reason victims of abuse are beginning to seek help from secular authorities, and victims of theft are asking whether they can report it to the police.
This is one reason why "it seems that too many of the people who post here have way too much time on their hands". Posting these abuses seems to be the only pressure being exerted to turn the situation around. One lone voice usually accomplishes nothing.
Eddie said...
ReplyDeleteI wonder which is the worse aspect of troppergate?
The money?
Bribes?
Perversion of halacha?
Gilui Arayos
---------------------------
this scandal is the tip of the iceberg of what tropper is all about.
only because it is of a sexual and deviant nature has it made such a splash.
this is arguably mild compared to some of his conduct in the past.
he is rotten to his core. (and yes even rotten people do good things occasionally). the harm he has caused to numerous individuals over the years is beyond belief.
i was told that r' breslauer had to be hospitalized as a result of one the rabbis hindering the process.
ReplyDelete(or maybe it was just the shock of hearing leibs escapades and sexcapades).
can anyone confirm this?
"He only resigned from the yeshiva but he still owns with Jacobs and Kahn Horizons Bais Achiezer"
ReplyDeleteYou are either mute or dumb..
LT RESIGNED from EJF 2 months ago and has no $ from there whatsoever..Mr. Kaplan has cut his supply off from HIM..!
"unless you are affiliated with a recognized rabbinical authority of some stature. Most people just keep their heads down. Even when a public outcry takes a menuval down, there is usually no compensation to the victims."
ReplyDeleteWhat is the the function of the Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah? I would have thought a strong statement from them would be the least they should have done, let alone conduct the Beis Din to investigate this. But they have said and done NOTHING!!! Why?
Will someone who cares about klal Rabbonim of authority talk to them and perhaps leaders in E"Y and complete the task of removing Tropper from the cash he still seems to be holding to that he doesn't emerge again.
This is not about punishment, it's about protecting klal yisroel.
Is there no way to have a conversation with Rav Elyashiv or someone of his stature about this?
It is maddening to think that such a conversation cannot take place because some important gatekeeper is on the take. Is there another explanation?
Mr. Kaplan has cut his supply off from HIM..!
ReplyDeleteCould you please point me to a source for this?
You are either mute or dumb..
ReplyDeleteLT RESIGNED from EJF 2 months ago and has no $ from there whatsoever..Mr. Kaplan has cut his supply off from HIM..!
He can resign from a position in EJF but the question is if he still owns a part of the corporation (HORIZONS BAIS ACHIEZER INC), it is like Paul Allen does not have any official title in Microsoft but he still own a big part of it.
The question is if Tropper filled up a an ownership transfer form with the state, if not he still control the corporation.
Careful....Please do your homework more carefully.
ReplyDeleteWhere does the money come from to operate EJF? (rhetorical)
Where is there any statement of Kaplan's disassociation from Tropper?
WHY hasn't EJF or Horizons been named in any 'punisment' of Tropper? hummm? If you have it, please share?
It is maddening to think that such a conversation cannot take place because some important gatekeeper is on the take. Is there another explanation?
ReplyDeleteYes there is.
There are a lot of Orthodox Jews today. If our leaders became involved in every dispute of this caliber and put in the time to research it adequately, they'd be much too busy to get to learn, or even eat or sleep. Even big Roshei Yeshiva hardly ever get involved in local disputes.
If you have a Gadol Hador everything changes. The masses respect yashrus, and people who do bad things are looked upon as weak or evil. Today Jewish crooks have no problems getting shidduchim for their children. It's about money, not about being devout.
In a society where yashrus is important (at least outwardly), you wouldn't need to get a Monsey bais din involved to get rid of tropper. People would automatically cross the street in order not to be near him. He wouldn't get service at restaurants or other Jewish establishments. The problem here is that this mindset is not present today, as you can see by all those who defended tropper.
So it's not about being on the take. It's about no mechanism being present to replace what happens when we have a Gadol Hador.
Shqueeze, Rav Elyashiv is recognized as the Gadol HaDor by many. His name gave great clout to Tropper. Surely that same person should now be approached to speak up and shut down Tropper. That's really all I'm asking. Let the same people who propped up Tropper before, as a who's who roster of famous Rabbonim, now line up to shut him down.
ReplyDeleteWhy don't they? Is there someone standing at Rav Elyashiv's door blocking the way in to discuss this? I think there must be.
Your response that we are a generation without Gedolim is not good enough for me. We all know the names of the recognized authorities who are brought together to elicit a response from the tzibbur when they need to. They've done this so many times in recent years. Why not do so now when a clear manipulator who had global reach is at large? A manipulator that manipulated them? This is not a local matter. It's a huge matter that won't go away. EJF made this into a global matter. They attempted to revoke conversions across the globe. Now the leader of this group is considered a small local guy? Be honest. Something is very fishy.
Why isn't all this maddening to you? It's making me crazy! It's making me wonder if the whole deck of Gedolim cards has just fallen. Someone please shlug me up!
When it comes to Rav Elyashiv, there are people who say that Eisenstein is the gatekeeper.
ReplyDeleteIt may very well be on this blog. A quick google gave me
http://haemtza.blogspot.com/2007/11/eisensteins-war-against-jews_10.html
>What is the the function of the Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah? I would have thought a strong statement from them would be the least they should have done, let alone conduct the Beis Din to investigate this. But they have said and done NOTHING!!! Why?<
ReplyDeleteIn a nutshell: A certain rabbi on Coney Island Avenue in Brooklyn seemes to 'own' the Moetzes and it is not in his interest to criticize LT. Tragic but true, IMHO
Dov said...
ReplyDeleteIn a nutshell: A certain rabbi on Coney Island Avenue in Brooklyn seemes to 'own' the Moetzes and it is not in his interest to criticize LT. Tragic but true, IMHO
-------------------------------------
that would definitely seem to fit with troppers request that the rabbi from coney island ave and the one from upstate ny designate or choose his replacement at kol yaakov.
incidentally, without the backing and support of the rabbi from coney island ave, tropper would have been forced to leave KY some 20+ years ago.
Shqueeze said...
ReplyDeleteWhen it comes to Rav Elyashiv, there are people who say that Eisenstein is the gatekeeper.
---------------------------------
eisenstein is known to refer to rav elyashiv simply as "maran" without mentioning his name.
as in 'i spoke to maran' or 'according to maran'.....
Whatever happened to "Mekubal" and his insisting that the rabbanim were convinced (from the audio tapes no less) that tropper wasn't guilty. Will Mekubal retract and apologize now for his delusion/deception in the comments on this site?
ReplyDeleteCan anyone verify this or are these just more lies from Machane Tropper?
ReplyDeleteSomeone posted a comment at 5TJT that R' Aba Dunner is a hypocrite since CER has a division that does giyur outreach to goyish Russians in Israel.
What is the the function of the Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah? I would have thought a strong statement from them would be the least they should have done, let alone conduct the Beis Din to investigate this. But they have said and done NOTHING!!! Why?
ReplyDelete_____________
Obviously, you expect Gedolim to conform to your opinion. After all, who are the Gedolim to disagree with you?
Understand this. If Gedolim have been quiet about this, at least until now, then THAT is their response.
If they suddenly come out publicly against this then THAT will be their response.
Sometimes the best course is to keep it out of the public.
If you can't understand that then at least understand that you are not a Gadol and their ways of thinking are not yours.
If you can't understand that then at least understand that you are not a Gadol and their ways of thinking are not yours.
ReplyDeleteGreat answer. Subjugate yourself. Don't look into it. Never question authority or those who say they speak for those in authority, even when bodies are falling around you.
After all, it's not up to use to make sure the lines of communication are open to them. That honor belongs to important people like tropper and eisenstein.
Your answer, of course, goes even further. Don't even try to understand how they think. Just follow like a cult member.
Now that's daas torah.
Shqueeze said...
ReplyDeleteIf you can't understand that then at least understand that you are not a Gadol and their ways of thinking are not yours.
Great answer. Subjugate yourself. Don't look into it. Never question authority or those who say they speak for those in authority, even when bodies are falling around you.
After all, it's not up to use to make sure the lines of communication are open to them. That honor belongs to important people like tropper and eisenstein.
Your answer, of course, goes even further. Don't even try to understand how they think. Just follow like a cult member.
Now that's daas torah.
___________
You are putting words in my mouth. And if you knew me you'd know I'm anything but a herd-follower.
But there is something called emunas Chachamim. And if you don't have that -- well, have a nice religion.
But there is something called emunas Chachamim
ReplyDeleteBut the shochad blinded the chachamim and they are no longer chachomim...
But the shochad blinded the chachamim and they are no longer chachomim...
ReplyDeleteAnd in other cases the questions and information going to the chachamim and the answers we are told are coming from the chachamim are twisted by those who impose themselves as gatekeepers.
There is more to it than not being a herd follower. One must also use one's own sechel to try and determine what would make sense, given a situation, as coming from a talmid chochom or gadol. Though I guess some people will tell me that today's gedolim have ruach hakodesh, sometimes it's just garbage in garbage out.
"If you can't understand that then at least understand that you are not a Gadol and their ways of thinking are not yours"
ReplyDeleteInteresting choice of words. God says in our holy scripture: "My thoughts are not your thoughts and my ways are not your ways." Perhaps you confused 'gedolim' with God since it starts with the same first syllable?
UOJ has a theory that R' Aron Schechter will probably get Avrom Fruchthandler to examine Kol Yaakov's 13 students and 12 staff from a business standpoint and if it is determined that there is no money to be made there by building it up, they will let the place collapse and leave Tropper holding the bag.
ReplyDeleteBut the shochad blinded the chachamim and they are no longer chachomim...
ReplyDelete______________
If you think every Gadol is somehow in cahoots with Kaplan/Tropper, or if they were somehow that that is what causes them to not take this as public as you would like, you are the blind one.
Consider this possibilty. There are Gadolim who have no shaichus to the money and nevertheless think the best course of action is to let the local Monsey beis din take care of it as they have.
Or any number of other reasons that we are not privy to.
A little emunas chachamim please...
Interesting choice of words. God says in our holy scripture: "My thoughts are not your thoughts and my ways are not your ways." Perhaps you confused 'gedolim' with God since it starts with the same first syllable?
ReplyDelete_________
God's thought are not like our thoughts, even the thoughts of Moshe Rabeinu.
But even Moshe Rabeinu's thoughts are not like everyone else's thoughts.
And even true Gadolim, whom we have today, who are nowhere near Moshe Rabeinu - even their thoughts are not our thoughts.
Consider the possibility. They are not weak or bribed or somehow corrupt -- but have decided that the best course of action, for now, is to not make their meetings and thoughts public, but rather to work behind the scenes as much as possible for as long as possible.
Again, a little emunas Chachamim please...
Consider the possibility. They are not weak or bribed or somehow corrupt -- but have decided that the best course of action, for now, is to not make their meetings and thoughts public, but rather to work behind the scenes as much as possible for as long as possible.
ReplyDeleteOr consider this: They see somebody like tropper who can do tons of damage, maybe even damage them one at a time if he wanted to (divide and conquer). Each one challenged would lose credibility with those with weak emunah in them (like us being attacked by Amalek). Because of that, their ability to come forward and be followed in times of true emergencies (maybe Iran lobbing a nuke at Yerushalaim C"V) would be endangered. So they don't get involved unless there is a threat to a major portion of the Bnei Yisroel.
This possibility does not require them to be omnipotent as well as omniscient. More in line with what I think one is allowed to believe about people, even gedolim.
And with the power wielded by tropper, it would probably be the right decision until he is buried. I doubt they would want a war with Tom Kaplan if it came to that. More Jews would be hurt in such a war than were hurt by tropper, and it would lead to other wars that would eventually dilute their authority.
Emunas chachamim does not mean sticking your head in the sand and convincing yourself not to think or act. We may have gedolim today but not a Gadol Hador who has undisputed authority due to who he is.
Keep in mind that the argument of not thinking but following blindly is exactly what tropper taught to many of his talmidim. (To the others he taught that the system is easily manipulated).
It's been proven that he was able to manipulate many, because other gedolim protested.
The nafka minah to the "believe and ignore" argument is that this scenario does not preclude us from acting to go against the berserkers any way we can.
Consider this possibilty. There are Gadolim who have no shaichus to the money
ReplyDeleteNames Please…..
Even r’ Elyashiv who does not need nor use the money itself still had a shayachus by telling Tropper to whom to give the money and according to Tropper he told him to ignore Guma wishes concerning Guma’s money.
And Rav Elyashev did that according to who? Tropper who has all the credibility in the world?
ReplyDeleteCut it out already.
"It's been proven that he was able to manipulate many, because other gedolim protested "
ReplyDeleteWhere and when was that proven?
Some of you posters sound like a "lynch mob".I am not exonerating this alleged behavior of LT, yet we are doing more damage than anyone by all of this hate talk. Our past HAS proven, that we Jews are causing the inner strife that can only lead to terrible consequences for AM Yisroel.Please DESIST from falsehoods, condemnation, exagerations and let us look into our own deeds and correct them. Would any of us want a prosecutor up there to condemn our deeds publicly and viciously as you are??
justice said...
ReplyDelete"It's been proven that he was able to manipulate many, because other gedolim protested "
Where and when was that proven?
Some of you posters sound like a "lynch mob"...Would any of us want a prosecutor up there to condemn our deeds publicly and viciously as you are??
Just off the top of my head, Rav Dunner is one who protested loudly to tropper's buying respectability. A bais din stood firm in converting Orand, who had proclaimed that she did this because she wasn't the only one tropper extorted. Hopefully this is in the past. I won't search the archives for more names.
None of us would want a prosecutor protesting publicly. But it seems obvious to me (but clearly not to you) that the only action that brought tropper down was the outcry on the net. If a prosecutor had been involved, there would have been no need for the outcry. tropper and his ilk depend on us NOT bringing him to trial (mesirah) and have studied the legalities of corruption all their lives. Since the only outcome so far is a ruling that he give up his yeshiva and leave Monsey (not yet acted upon), we need to keep a PUBLIC eye on him.
I've followed this for a while now. First people loudly stating that he was innocent and all the accusers would burn for the accusation, then people saying that OK it was true but he was set up and only human (forgetting the extortion part), then people saying it couldn't be proven, then people saying loudly and repeatedly (Sammy) that it wasn't tropper in the video, and now people saying "Hasn't he suffered enough?".
The denial will go on forever. The decision to deny was made before the evidence was heard. But some of us know that we have evil people in our midst who take advantage of the system, and that the only way to change this is to not relent in a public outcry. I'm sorry you miss this point. It means we have a long way to go.
To Shqueeze:
ReplyDeleteA. The beis din that converted Orand was bought off and is an invalid conversion not recognized by the Israeli Chief Rabbinate.
B. Orand cannot be a credible mouth. She has lied and manipulated her way to bring down Tropper.
C. The VIDEO was discredited by the court that converted her! That is how they claim they could convert her. video was sent to a professional lab with results that found them to be doctored.
D. There is no concrete evidence of any other woman extortions, for now that's hearsay.This is a falsehood, exageration that I refered to in my previous post.
E. Dunner has a personal motive for his comments against EJF & Tropper, I wish to go into. Those comments are not PROOF.
All of the above does not exonorate Tropper's deeds if indeed they are as Orand (who was set up to destroy him)has claimed(and changed stories many times to fit her agenda!). Even so, must we resort to inner strife, hatred and viciousness against our own brethren? A person can be watched, and reprimanded, stripped of rabbinical authority(If need be) with some sense of justice and dignity. Remember the brothers of Yosef who wanted to kill him and sold him..were punished only because they sat to eat a meal as their brother was suffering in the pit..some of the posters are showing that 'JOY" and lynch mob attitude which is prohibited and does not show JUSTICE.
As for A, B, and C, D, and E, I don't believe them. I am choshed those who I know have done bad things. I won't be choshed those who have a chazaka of kashrus.
ReplyDeleteI won't believe the bais din was bought off, that Orand lied (I saw no discrepancies myself), that the video was discredited (and Leba's discussion showed me that she did not doubt that the incident occurred, even if the tape is not proven), that Orand's statement that there were others (which I read in some interview somewhere) was incorrect, or that R' Dunner (who I never heard of before) would lie, risking his position, indeed his whole life, just for revenge.
I consider tropper a criminal who is at large. Guma is in a psychiatric hospital and cannot even bring a civil suit against him at this point. To treat tropper as someone who was caught and did his time is not fitting at this juncture. He is continuing to push for everything he can get (this from people who continue to witness his tumling, not from the blogs).
He needs to be stopped, at the very least watched. The best way to keep him from doing the most outrageous things is to watch him noisily.
The glee you speak of seems to be the mob watching the hanging. I agree that it's not pretty or even appropriate at times. If there were a justice system that could take hold of this situation, I believe the ones "dancing at his funeral" would be shouted down.
He's Jewish, but he's a bad guy. If it were just about sex I wouldn't bother commenting at all.
Shqueeze, you seem to be misguided or better yet, very biased. Your answers are not reasonable and it seems that you must have had a personal encounter that leaves you with hatred, anger and blind.
ReplyDeleteDiscrepencies in fact:
A.Orand first claimed that she was doing this sordid thing in return for a jewish conversion, the tapes(if not altered) tells us it was for payments for "treatments" to a Doctor White. b. She also stated that she meant for the tapes to be sent to rabbinical authorities, when in fact there was evidence of emails between her and Guma to the contrary. c. after she rcvd her bogus conversion, she stated that she never had any physical contact with LT, yet the audio and video show otherwise as did her previous comments prior to the "conversion". Additionally the video was discredited so she can get her "geirus". You cant have it both ways! either she did not participate in this 'arayos" and thereby Tropper is innocent as well OR she is lying and Tropper is guity! This is what you call chazaka of kashrus in this woman? I dont know what or who you are, but you need to use your BRAINS and not your FEELINGS of hatred, anger that in fact do blind a person to make radical and statements such as "I consider tropper a criminal who is at large" , These Rabbis never had experience in a conversion before. Yet out of the blue they did do this one..This is what you call chazaka of kashrus? where did you learn? feelings of anger and hatred are against Torah teachings despite who it is against. It is not JUSTICE and hatred is self defeating.
You are just writing fiction. I no longer assume that you are sincere. Rather, you are either tropper or one of his supporters attempting to discover the identities of those who won't fold, so this will be my last post on the matter. You may have the last word, but I go on record declaring your insincerity.
ReplyDeleteA. Orand said she was accepting money from tropper in the custody battle for her children against her husband, a child molester. I do agree that she seems to be attracted to bad men. But she was not doing a sordid thing for conversion. She was protecting her children.
b. I know nothing of emails between her and Guma to the contrary. Even if there was communication between them, what happened is conjecture. You are stating that you are choshed her without knowing what went on. That is an aveirah. And even if we find out later on that she lied about something outside bais din, so what? She doesn't have to be a tzadekess. She is certainly allowed to team up with someone to fight her tormentor. This is what tropper does, character assassination. It makes me suspicious of you.
c. She was not shown having sex in the video. In fact, she states that she and Leba just got undressed and waited for him to show up, telling him that they had had sex. More lies (to tropper). So what? In your mind, is this on par with what tropper did?
Additionally, I did not see or hear anywhere that the video was discredited, and certainly not so that she could get a conversion. This again is just fabrication.
So yes, she does have a chezkas kashrus. You are the one who hates her. Maybe because she is a giyores, maybe because you are tropper or one of his cohorts.
I don't hate tropper. We are supposed to hate injustice and he is the epitome of the unjust charlatan. You can love Amalek and say this is what the Torah teaches, but love of everybody is not what is found there. Hatred for nothing (sinas chinum) is forbidden, not anger at those who corrupt the system for their own aggrandizement.
Love a nazi and call yourself frum. I won't. All emotions have their place in the Torah world. Pinchus was not a rushuh. Those are Christian teachings.
I will not comment with you any further on this..I am not Tropper or his cohort as you falsely claim.I do not write fiction as you stated. Your fraudulent comments leads me to beleive you are a "Radical Zealot" who twists the truth to fit their own agenda! I am commenting on this with objectivity and with the limited info i have verified.Your a,b,c replies are so baseless and contain no logic that it is worthless to respond to you any longer.Perhaps you are Orand and Guma or their cohorts(using your twisting and fasefying statements) . so let it be said..let it be written. Go "shqueeze" your brains till you get some SECHEL..BH you are not a Dayan ..
ReplyDelete