People who would follow this fellow as he presents himself would seem to be in search of a good psychotherapist or an Eastern meditational guru and not seeking conversion to Judaism. Very "new age-ish" and wishy washy. Oh yeah, like all good cultists, he is also looking for donations.... rachmona litzlan.
This is the problem with your approach! You worry about this fellow doing the P (prosetyzation crime, a crime not acknolweged by shulchanoruch in and of itself); what should worry you is that the guy brings GOYIM ato klal yisroel, that his gerut is not a "Gerut". This is *the* worry and concern! REform and Conservative Gerut are not wrong because they "prosetyze" (as you pick up and RAp are so staunchly fighting the wrong wars); they are wrong because THEY ARE NO GERUT!
No woneer you make a tzad hashoveh betwen this guy and EJF and do not make a tzad hashovoh between this guy and other fake orthodox dayonim and batey dinim who do not do true conversions! No wonder that we do nor hear from you anything about what your REbbe (Rav Sternbuch) writes in his Shut about the covnersions by fake dayanim are wothless and are goyim gmurim; you have priorities confused!
Roni will never give up and opportunity to misdirect his comments.
Get this Roni: EVERYONE who is Orthodox, from the Modern Orthodox to the most Haredi, AGREES that Reform and Conservative concersions are NOT valid! That is not and has not ever been an issue on this blog. If Tropper and EJF would be fighting the false conversions of the Reform (who do not even bother converting gentile men married to a Jewish woman because they hold from patrilineal descent, remember?) and Conservaatives no doubt all Orthodox Jews would concur with such an effort and maybe even join the good fight.
The problem is that EJF has created a devious program that has NOTHING to do with the Reform and Conservatives. EJF has decided that it alone is now the judge of all ORTHODOX conversions and that Tropper is the ONLY chief judge of this new tribunal. No Orthodox rabbi is safe, be he Modern Orthodox (who have already been negated by EJF because they wear colored jackets and maybe believe the Earth may be older than 6000 years) or even Haredi (who can easily be negated because they are charged with not being poskim that can take on EJF's claimed halachic guides) so that out of the blue, in less than three years EJF comes riding out of nowhere (not nowhere really, it came as a brainchild from the womb of the very deep pockets of its conceivers and backers) and loudly announces to the world that it, and it alone, can and must be the sole decision-makers regarding conversions.
If that were all, it would be bad enough, but to add to this near-diabolical scheme, EJF has also undertaken and pushed a full-scale proselytization drive which runs 100% counter to the actions and policies of all Chazal for over 2000 years, let alone latter-day poskim, that makes it very clear and evident (to all but poster Roni here) that Judaism has NEVER allowed let alone promoted "reaching out" to GOYIM of any kind in ANY situation -- even when married to Jews -- in order to make them into Yidden.
Yet Roni feels he can hand R' Celso Cukierkorn an underhanded "compliment" that proselytization as such is "not forbidden" and somehow or other twist the flow of the discussion that the "real" problem is that not enough people join with EJF to fight fellow ORTHODOX rabbis (that is, only the ones that EJF and Tropper deem to be "enemies" in targeted fashion) while never admitting to the obvious, that EJF and Tropper, while preaching to the choir of rabbis at their well-choreographed concerts about "higher standards" for conversion (meaning ONLY EJF's interpretations of such standards) while at the same time hiding and continuing with its OWN proselytization program as direct and open as R' Celso Cukierkorn's and of the other proselytizers as presented here in their own words yet.
Typo correction: I should have said about Reform: "who do not even bother converting JEWISH men married to a GENTILE woman because they hold from patrilineal descent"
But to come back to the original point: How can someone be so confused and fardreyt as to say that Cukeirkorn only problem is that he runs counter "policies" of non prosetyzing?!?! It is beyond beleif how one can fardrey an ikar to a tafel and a tafel to an ikkar.
In short: cukeirkorn and many others are a terrible problem for they bring LOTS OF GOYIM INTO KLAL YISROEL! TIHS IS THE BIGGEST PROBLEM! THISPROBLEM UNFORTUNATELY EXISTS IN MANY "ORTHODOX" RABBIS AND TIME HAS COME TO REMEDY THIS PROBLEM! DO NOT LET OTHERS FOOL YOU WITH "jackets" and "age of universe"; we are talknig about conversions without a shred of shirat shabbat deorayyossoh, (a la uncle tom's relative)' lack of basic kashrut and basic taharat hamishpacha!
Roni, it seems that the subject of R' Celso Cukierkorn has hit a raw nerve with you/Tropper.
Why is that exactly?
Do you/Tropper know him or know of him? Is he an associate of Tropper? Did he ever learn in Tropper's Kol Yaakov yeshiva and thereby learn all his moves from them? Do you/Tropper fear that he will have more pull and popularity than Tropper and EJF in reaching out to the millions of potential customers that EJF wants all for itself? Maybe he will be getting millions from uncle Tom's nephew that Tropper always imagined would "rightfully" devolved to him? Are you/Tropper afraid that he will have a kindlier and gentler appeal to the very people (GOYIM) that feel intimidated by Tropper's hard-sell methods and that he will wipe EJF off the face of the Earth with his lovable hound-dog droopy-eyed love-bombing and warm-and-fuzzy "kiruv" tactics? (You can almost feel this man R' Celso Cukierkorn "hug" you on this video, he is so hartzig.)
You sure seem so nervous about someone who was seemingly just plucked randomly from YouTube because he promotes clear-cut proselytization to gentiles.
Nothing is known about R' Celso Cukierkorn's actual work of conversions. Can you tell us if you have any accurate and truthful information about his participation in real-life conversions of gentiles to Judaism of any sort? Does he have his own bais din? Does he run a conversion mill operation? Does he run around the world like Tropper pushing his cause and personality-cult? Tell us about it rationally and calmly if you can instead of screaming into the ether. Does he participate in a bais din for conversion while also acting as a recruiter of converts? If he has a bais din that is under his thumb (as Tropper does in Monsey) what is the financial arrangements that all the parties may have with each other? Who pays who for what? Do converts have to pay R' Celso Cukierkorn, or the bais din he sends them to? Is he married? To whom? etc etc
There are more such questions, and any and all answers from you or anyone would be more than welcome to create a thorogh picture, but you can rest assured that no-one on this blog as far as I can tell is giving any sort of haskoma or validation to EITHER R' Celso Cukierkorn's proselytizations OR his conversionary work as it may be, so quit falsely accusing and misdirecting the dicussion as you like to do instead of focusing on the real issues.
In any case, is R' Celso Cukierkorn even Orthodox? Does anyone have any proof that he received a reliable semicha from reliable Orthodox rabbis? This has not been answered here so therefore you can be sure that his work is not being approved of in any way on this blog (it should be obvious in any case) as far as anyone can see yet it does not stop you from running off on tangents and making your usual false charges and misleading statements.
By the way, the difference between the EIDAH and EJF is the that the EIDAH is busy with itself and will act only when its self-interests are in question. They know their bounds and limits. Unlike EJF which has taken upon itself a multi-million dollar world-wide global effort and claims a mandate to charge into any situation anywhere on this planet (probabaly on other's as well) based on their own whims in the name of "raisng standards" all as a cover for an even more ambitious goal of converting millions of gentiles hichjed to Jews and making them into EJF junkies, none of which in any way is what the EIDAH would ever let themseeves get into. You know, there is a big difference between megalomania and normalcy.
Roni loves to mix subjects up especially when he despises who it's about, as seen in this gem: "The problems with his [R' Celso Cukierkorn's] covnersions is not that he is "prosetyzing"' the problem is that there is no conversion period."
And it shows how Roni/Tropper never allows simple logic and reason to interfere with his twisted foregone agenda of defending TRopper at the expense of pointing out failures, real or imagined, of others.
Let's break it down:
(a) There is the problem with proselytization. (Judaism has never allowed or encouraged it. There is no halachic precedent for doing so in the modern era by any known group of notable halachic decisors.)
(b) There is the problem of weak or invalid conversions. (If performed by a non-Orthodox clergyman they are totally invalid halachically, but when performed by an Orthodox rabbi each case must be assessed on its own merits or demerits. Opinions and conclusions may vary.)
(a) and (b) are NOT the same problem, so that when one speaks of (a) it does not mean that it is the same as (b), even though the problem of (a) is that it may lead to (b).
Thus it could well be, if he is provably not Orthodox, that in the case of R' Celso Cukierkorn his proselytization AND his conversions are not valid and any talk about his activities is halachically moot, but that does not mean to say that he is being dealt with like Tropper who is a bona fide Orthodx rabbi, and therefore he is being asked to produce and explain with real haskomas the validity of what he does as (a), but what he does as (b) is not the issue, and yes he (Tropper) does have many rabbis who also wish to raise standards (presumably all Orthodox rabbis want to do this too) and never has that been a real issue as far as this blog is concerned, even though poster Roni/Tropper goes balistic when questioned about his my-way-or-the-highway method of issuing ultimatums to rabbis and converts alike to follow ONLY EJF's supposed standards are be damned forevermore.
What poster Roni/Tropper has constantly tried to do is to present (b) as some sort of red herring defense or excuse for (a) to justify EJF's agenda to reach millions of gentiles hitched to Jews, and will even go further and claim that problems concerning (a) AND (b), with R' Celso Cukierkorn, with this blog NOT approving of EITHER R' Celso Cukierkorn's (a) and (b), that "somehow" this blog by focusing on (a) "therefore" means that "somehow" this blog is "approving" of (b) when no such "conclusion" would be drawn by ANYONE except poster Roni/Tropper who cannot resist defending his own acts of (a) by distracting readers with his discussions of (b) when (b) is not in any way part of (a) in these discussions as far as EJF is concerned on this blog.
Roni, you may have learned a blat or two but you know nothing about simple logic and reasoning it seems.
RAp, after your krumme long treatise let tell you very simple
when someone steals from two stores: from one he steals 5$ and from the other he steals 1,000,000$ one is not going around and publicize from jupiter "the crook stole 5$"; he is going to say "the crook stole a million dollars", when one does the former he trivializes the later. It is that simple logic that you poshut do not beginto understand with you krumer upringing and irrational hatred.
With regards to the rest of the chollent you take do not understand anything: For while many times a and b are totally unrelated, but many a times they are related, and sometimes exepert rabbonim take a stand and see that b is the source of the problem (like stealing a million dollars) and a is a minute problem (if it is -because there is not even a recorded source that states this is as a prohibition) then one may use an avenue that may contain a to knock down B.
And for those who may be confused by this ah from jupiter and his krumkeyt, it is very simple:
By doing A rabbonim are taking the road that advertises to prospects about the non suitability of B and they are successful at it .
In simple terms by Ejf setting up batey dinim and letting people know that Rabbis like theone from Flatbush are not kosher for gerut they are able to divert propsects from seeing that rabi and even if they alread ysaw him they are able to make them redo the conversion. Since many of them would remain goyim and would mingle with klal yisroel and Ejf would make with them a proper gerut and they would be halachik jews, EJf is doing a favor to klal yisroel by ding A (the "p" unknown crime).
It is precisely for this success by Ejf that Rap (Who has partners that enable the rabbi in flatbush to bring in goyim to klal yisroel) decided to attack Rt. His main thesis is the bombastic non existing prohibition of "proseltyizng". Hislogic is flawed. his whole idea is a recipe from the sour chollent. And he is riddled with hatred to a man that causes him to expore his krukeyt to this degree that he and the blog owner would rail at Cukierkorn for "prosetyzing" and not for the known fact that he does not make orthodox conversions, ie. his covnerts are goyim gmurim.
roni wrote blog owner would rail at Cukierkorn for "prosetyzing" and not for the known fact that he does not make orthodox conversions, ie. his covnerts are goyim gmurim. ================== Roni this is typical of your hysterical rhetoric - where did I "rail"
I merely noted he was proseletyizing - someing which I am sure he is proud of.
You and Tropper have an ambivelance about proselytizing. You alternate by saying that it isn't done by EJF and then you turn around demand I show it is prohibited or say that it is $5 crime and is thus insignificant to those who do larger crimes. Please pay attention to what you have said before you erupt - which is the point that Mekubal made.
If you produced a letters from Rav Eliashiv or Rav Feinstein that said the following, "Even though activity encouraging goyim to convert has been discouraged or prohibited - today's society is different and therefore it is an acceptable approach." - I might not be happy with it but I would accept you have valid Daas Torah. It is obscene that in 2 years not a single letter has been produced. The letter from Rav Reuven you produced does not come close to saying this and your distortion of Rav Eliashiv's position speaks volumes about the quality of discourse you feel comfortable with.
HOw pathetic and stupid. You weren't "railing" about him about "rseletyzing"; you were just writing at the headof your post that this is the problem with the fellow. How silly and stupid!
You "noted" about the prosetyzing but you didn't bother to notice that he does a non orthodox conversion...how pathetic...
Yourporblem is tha tthat you gave now to this fellow a mtetzius as a man deomar! the only problem you found by him is that he prosetyzises. You don't care that what he brings is a goy gomur into klal yisroel.
bECAUSE YOUR MIND IS SO BENT TO ATTACK TROPPER THAT YOU WANT TO FIND OTHERS THAT FIT YOUR MOLD ABOUT HIM...HERE YUO FOUND CUKIERKORN AND YOU HAVE WHAT TO DO....
I don't alternate anytihng. (if anything you are the one who alternates the criticism at troper from saying he prseltyzes and then saying he wants the convert to wwear a jacket and the acrobatic argumentation).
I say one thing: YOUR WAR ON HIM IS NOT JUSTIFIED!
1- you are wrong about the FACTS,
2- you are wrong about the nature of the problem: there is no issur even if he WOULD be wrosetyzing the way you misportray...(and the fact is that he does not go to the lengths that you confuse the olom...Even if mistakes happen, they happen by all of us and he is happy to fix those problems).
Your new contentions are the same old contentions: But the premise (as always) is flawed. Rav Troper owes you NOTHING! He is doing something which carries no ISSUR . He has backing from gedolim. He does not need to show you letters from any Gadol. you hve to show where he was wrong. You haven;t shown even the basic issur let alone that we have here a crime that it is worth going on a war...
But what you haven't done a bit of your zeal about your nonsensical war over a non issur, is the REAL WAR the war wheere (not over a 5$ theft, but over MILLION $ theft) . This is ibizarre.
Dion't give your "red herrings". Start internalizing, there is a concept "amputate a hand to sve a life" .This is not a red herring: "how can you amputate the hand.?" I reply: "but i'm saving a life...", you reply: "don't give the red herring....don't amputate the hand". Your bobeh mayssos for two years is clearly that you do not care a bit for THE LIFE of the problem. At one one time you invented "they both stink"! how silly and pathetic. Yes, this approach is what gave you the narrishkeyt of saying that the problem with Cukierkorn is "proseltyzing"! you give Cukierkorn" a legitimacy and go after his 5$ theft!
Hamotzvi mechaveroy OLOV horayyo! you haven'tproduced any and Rt does not owe you any! In the meantime he taking away some fake converts from the flatbush rabbi and thatis what counts!
Here is Rabbi Cukierkorns credentials. He comes from a family of Rbbi's going back 700 or 800 years.
His grandmother's grandfather was the Kotske Rebbe. Besides the Rebbe of Kotske, he is also related to Rabbi Meir Shapiro of Lublin, the founder of Yeshiva Chochme Lublin and who was also the president of Agudat Israel political party. Rabbi Cukierkorn is also a descendent of Pinchas of Koretz and studied at Rabbinical College of America in Morristown, NJ at the Aleph Institute in Philadelphia, PA, and at Yeshiva Ayshel Avrham in Monsey, N Y.
He got his Smicha at Monsey. Wouldn't that make him an orthodox Rav? Another interesting fact not mentioned anywhere above is that Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson of righteous memory was named after Rabbi Cukierkorns Grandfather who migrated to Brazil from Poland in 1929.
It's ok to be critical of the act of proseltizing, but be careful when criticising a Rabbi, as it says Pirke Avot, keep your tongue from evil, and your lips from speaking guile.
The Torah commands this: “הקהל (haqeheil; congregate—verb root of Q’hil•âh′) ha-am, the men, the women, and the tots; and your geir who is within your gates; so that they will Shәm•a′ and so that they will learn, and they will revere י–ה your Ëlohim′, and will keep shomeir′ to do all of the matters of this Tor•âh′.” – Deuteronomy 31:12
(Torah akhat yiheyeh la-ezrakh; wә-la-geir hagar be•tokh•e•khem “One Tor•âh′ shall be for the citizen [i.e. native Yi•s’r•â•eil′i]; and for the resident-alien who resides among you).” S’hemot [Exodus] 12:49
Thus if we care for haSheims creations and acknowledge that He loves them and wants a relationsship with them, we must show them why they are required to keep Torah; and this requirement includes conversion as it is explicitly commanded in Shemot 12:48.
People who would follow this fellow as he presents himself would seem to be in search of a good psychotherapist or an Eastern meditational guru and not seeking conversion to Judaism. Very "new age-ish" and wishy washy. Oh yeah, like all good cultists, he is also looking for donations.... rachmona litzlan.
ReplyDeleteDT,
ReplyDeleteThis is the problem with your approach! You worry about this fellow doing the P (prosetyzation crime, a crime not acknolweged by shulchanoruch in and of itself); what should worry you is that the guy brings GOYIM ato klal yisroel, that his gerut is not a "Gerut". This is *the* worry and concern! REform and Conservative Gerut are not wrong because they "prosetyze" (as you pick up and RAp are so staunchly fighting the wrong wars); they are wrong because THEY ARE NO GERUT!
No woneer you make a tzad hashoveh betwen this guy and EJF and do not make a tzad hashovoh between this guy and other fake orthodox dayonim and batey dinim who do not do true conversions! No wonder that we do nor hear from you anything about what your REbbe (Rav Sternbuch) writes in his Shut about the covnersions by fake dayanim are wothless and are goyim gmurim; you have priorities confused!
an easy fast,
Roni will never give up and opportunity to misdirect his comments.
ReplyDeleteGet this Roni: EVERYONE who is Orthodox, from the Modern Orthodox to the most Haredi, AGREES that Reform and Conservative concersions are NOT valid! That is not and has not ever been an issue on this blog. If Tropper and EJF would be fighting the false conversions of the Reform (who do not even bother converting gentile men married to a Jewish woman because they hold from patrilineal descent, remember?) and Conservaatives no doubt all Orthodox Jews would concur with such an effort and maybe even join the good fight.
The problem is that EJF has created a devious program that has NOTHING to do with the Reform and Conservatives. EJF has decided that it alone is now the judge of all ORTHODOX conversions and that Tropper is the ONLY chief judge of this new tribunal. No Orthodox rabbi is safe, be he Modern Orthodox (who have already been negated by EJF because they wear colored jackets and maybe believe the Earth may be older than 6000 years) or even Haredi (who can easily be negated because they are charged with not being poskim that can take on EJF's claimed halachic guides) so that out of the blue, in less than three years EJF comes riding out of nowhere (not nowhere really, it came as a brainchild from the womb of the very deep pockets of its conceivers and backers) and loudly announces to the world that it, and it alone, can and must be the sole decision-makers regarding conversions.
If that were all, it would be bad enough, but to add to this near-diabolical scheme, EJF has also undertaken and pushed a full-scale proselytization drive which runs 100% counter to the actions and policies of all Chazal for over 2000 years, let alone latter-day poskim, that makes it very clear and evident (to all but poster Roni here) that Judaism has NEVER allowed let alone promoted "reaching out" to GOYIM of any kind in ANY situation -- even when married to Jews -- in order to make them into Yidden.
Yet Roni feels he can hand R' Celso Cukierkorn an underhanded "compliment" that proselytization as such is "not forbidden" and somehow or other twist the flow of the discussion that the "real" problem is that not enough people join with EJF to fight fellow ORTHODOX rabbis (that is, only the ones that EJF and Tropper deem to be "enemies" in targeted fashion) while never admitting to the obvious, that EJF and Tropper, while preaching to the choir of rabbis at their well-choreographed concerts about "higher standards" for conversion (meaning ONLY EJF's interpretations of such standards) while at the same time hiding and continuing with its OWN proselytization program as direct and open as R' Celso Cukierkorn's and of the other proselytizers as presented here in their own words yet.
Typo correction: I should have said about Reform: "who do not even bother converting JEWISH men married to a GENTILE woman because they hold from patrilineal descent"
ReplyDeleteBut to come back to the original point: How can someone be so confused and fardreyt as to say that Cukeirkorn only problem is that he runs counter "policies" of non prosetyzing?!?! It is beyond beleif how one can fardrey an ikar to a tafel and a tafel to an ikkar.
ReplyDeleteIn short: cukeirkorn and many others are a terrible problem for they bring LOTS OF GOYIM INTO KLAL YISROEL! TIHS IS THE BIGGEST PROBLEM! THISPROBLEM UNFORTUNATELY EXISTS IN MANY "ORTHODOX" RABBIS AND TIME HAS COME TO REMEDY THIS PROBLEM! DO NOT LET OTHERS FOOL YOU WITH "jackets" and "age of universe"; we are talknig about conversions without a shred of shirat shabbat deorayyossoh, (a la uncle tom's relative)' lack of basic kashrut and basic taharat hamishpacha!
Roni, it seems that the subject of R' Celso Cukierkorn has hit a raw nerve with you/Tropper.
ReplyDeleteWhy is that exactly?
Do you/Tropper know him or know of him? Is he an associate of Tropper? Did he ever learn in Tropper's Kol Yaakov yeshiva and thereby learn all his moves from them? Do you/Tropper fear that he will have more pull and popularity than Tropper and EJF in reaching out to the millions of potential customers that EJF wants all for itself? Maybe he will be getting millions from uncle Tom's nephew that Tropper always imagined would "rightfully" devolved to him? Are you/Tropper afraid that he will have a kindlier and gentler appeal to the very people (GOYIM) that feel intimidated by Tropper's hard-sell methods and that he will wipe EJF off the face of the Earth with his lovable hound-dog droopy-eyed love-bombing and warm-and-fuzzy "kiruv" tactics? (You can almost feel this man R' Celso Cukierkorn "hug" you on this video, he is so hartzig.)
You sure seem so nervous about someone who was seemingly just plucked randomly from YouTube because he promotes clear-cut proselytization to gentiles.
Nothing is known about R' Celso Cukierkorn's actual work of conversions. Can you tell us if you have any accurate and truthful information about his participation in real-life conversions of gentiles to Judaism of any sort? Does he have his own bais din? Does he run a conversion mill operation? Does he run around the world like Tropper pushing his cause and personality-cult? Tell us about it rationally and calmly if you can instead of screaming into the ether. Does he participate in a bais din for conversion while also acting as a recruiter of converts? If he has a bais din that is under his thumb (as Tropper does in Monsey) what is the financial arrangements that all the parties may have with each other? Who pays who for what? Do converts have to pay R' Celso Cukierkorn, or the bais din he sends them to? Is he married? To whom? etc etc
There are more such questions, and any and all answers from you or anyone would be more than welcome to create a thorogh picture, but you can rest assured that no-one on this blog as far as I can tell is giving any sort of haskoma or validation to EITHER R' Celso Cukierkorn's proselytizations OR his conversionary work as it may be, so quit falsely accusing and misdirecting the dicussion as you like to do instead of focusing on the real issues.
In any case, is R' Celso Cukierkorn even Orthodox? Does anyone have any proof that he received a reliable semicha from reliable Orthodox rabbis? This has not been answered here so therefore you can be sure that his work is not being approved of in any way on this blog (it should be obvious in any case) as far as anyone can see yet it does not stop you from running off on tangents and making your usual false charges and misleading statements.
By the way, the difference between the EIDAH and EJF is the that the EIDAH is busy with itself and will act only when its self-interests are in question. They know their bounds and limits. Unlike EJF which has taken upon itself a multi-million dollar world-wide global effort and claims a mandate to charge into any situation anywhere on this planet (probabaly on other's as well) based on their own whims in the name of "raisng standards" all as a cover for an even more ambitious goal of converting millions of gentiles hichjed to Jews and making them into EJF junkies, none of which in any way is what the EIDAH would ever let themseeves get into. You know, there is a big difference between megalomania and normalcy.
and the difference between EJf and you is: that they are doing something and you are infested with troppermania syndrome.
ReplyDeleteRoni loves to mix subjects up especially when he despises who it's about, as seen in this gem: "The problems with his [R' Celso Cukierkorn's] covnersions is not that he is "prosetyzing"' the problem is that there is no conversion period."
ReplyDeleteAnd it shows how Roni/Tropper never allows simple logic and reason to interfere with his twisted foregone agenda of defending TRopper at the expense of pointing out failures, real or imagined, of others.
Let's break it down:
(a) There is the problem with proselytization. (Judaism has never allowed or encouraged it. There is no halachic precedent for doing so in the modern era by any known group of notable halachic decisors.)
(b) There is the problem of weak or invalid conversions. (If performed by a non-Orthodox clergyman they are totally invalid halachically, but when performed by an Orthodox rabbi each case must be assessed on its own merits or demerits. Opinions and conclusions may vary.)
(a) and (b) are NOT the same problem, so that when one speaks of (a) it does not mean that it is the same as (b), even though the problem of (a) is that it may lead to (b).
Thus it could well be, if he is provably not Orthodox, that in the case of R' Celso Cukierkorn his proselytization AND his conversions are not valid and any talk about his activities is halachically moot, but that does not mean to say that he is being dealt with like Tropper who is a bona fide Orthodx rabbi, and therefore he is being asked to produce and explain with real haskomas the validity of what he does as (a), but what he does as (b) is not the issue, and yes he (Tropper) does have many rabbis who also wish to raise standards (presumably all Orthodox rabbis want to do this too) and never has that been a real issue as far as this blog is concerned, even though poster Roni/Tropper goes balistic when questioned about his my-way-or-the-highway method of issuing ultimatums to rabbis and converts alike to follow ONLY EJF's supposed standards are be damned forevermore.
What poster Roni/Tropper has constantly tried to do is to present (b) as some sort of red herring defense or excuse for (a) to justify EJF's agenda to reach millions of gentiles hitched to Jews, and will even go further and claim that problems concerning (a) AND (b), with R' Celso Cukierkorn, with this blog NOT approving of EITHER R' Celso Cukierkorn's (a) and (b), that "somehow" this blog by focusing on (a) "therefore" means that "somehow" this blog is "approving" of (b) when no such "conclusion" would be drawn by ANYONE except poster Roni/Tropper who cannot resist defending his own acts of (a) by distracting readers with his discussions of (b) when (b) is not in any way part of (a) in these discussions as far as EJF is concerned on this blog.
Roni, you may have learned a blat or two but you know nothing about simple logic and reasoning it seems.
a meshugener.....
ReplyDeleteRAp,
ReplyDeleteafter your krumme long treatise let tell you very simple
when someone steals from two stores: from one he steals 5$ and from the other he steals 1,000,000$ one is not going around and publicize from jupiter "the crook stole 5$"; he is going to say "the crook stole a million dollars", when one does the former he trivializes the later. It is that simple logic that you poshut do not beginto understand with you krumer upringing and irrational hatred.
With regards to the rest of the chollent you take do not understand anything: For while many times a and b are totally unrelated, but many a times they are related, and sometimes exepert rabbonim take a stand and see that b is the source of the problem (like stealing a million dollars) and a is a minute problem (if it is -because there is not even a recorded source that states this is as a prohibition) then one may use an avenue that may contain a to knock down B.
And for those who may be confused by this ah from jupiter and his krumkeyt, it is very simple:
By doing A rabbonim are taking the road that advertises to prospects about the non suitability of B and they are successful at it .
In simple terms by Ejf setting up batey dinim and letting people know that Rabbis like theone from Flatbush are not kosher for gerut they are able to divert propsects from seeing that rabi and even if they alread ysaw him they are able to make them redo the conversion. Since many of them would remain goyim and would mingle with klal yisroel and Ejf would make with them a proper gerut and they would be halachik jews, EJf is doing a favor to klal yisroel by ding A (the "p" unknown crime).
It is precisely for this success by Ejf that Rap (Who has partners that enable the rabbi in flatbush to bring in goyim to klal yisroel) decided to attack Rt. His main thesis is the bombastic non existing prohibition of "proseltyizng". Hislogic is flawed. his whole idea is a recipe from the sour chollent. And he is riddled with hatred to a man that causes him to expore his krukeyt to this degree that he and the blog owner would rail at Cukierkorn for "prosetyzing" and not for the known fact that he does not make orthodox conversions, ie. his covnerts are goyim gmurim.
roni wrote
ReplyDeleteblog owner would rail at Cukierkorn for "prosetyzing" and not for the known fact that he does not make orthodox conversions, ie. his covnerts are goyim gmurim.
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Roni this is typical of your hysterical rhetoric - where did I "rail"
I merely noted he was proseletyizing - someing which I am sure he is proud of.
You and Tropper have an ambivelance about proselytizing. You alternate by saying that it isn't done by EJF and then you turn around demand I show it is prohibited or say that it is $5 crime and is thus insignificant to those who do larger crimes. Please pay attention to what you have said before you erupt - which is the point that Mekubal made.
If you produced a letters from Rav Eliashiv or Rav Feinstein that said the following, "Even though activity encouraging goyim to convert has been discouraged or prohibited - today's society is different and therefore it is an acceptable approach." - I might not be happy with it but I would accept you have valid Daas Torah. It is obscene that in 2 years not a single letter has been produced. The letter from Rav Reuven you produced does not come close to saying this and your distortion of Rav Eliashiv's position speaks volumes about the quality of discourse you feel comfortable with.
HOw pathetic and stupid. You weren't "railing" about him about "rseletyzing"; you were just writing at the headof your post that this is the problem with the fellow. How silly and stupid!
ReplyDeleteYou "noted" about the prosetyzing but you didn't bother to notice that he does a non orthodox conversion...how pathetic...
Yourporblem is tha tthat you gave now to this fellow a mtetzius as a man deomar! the only problem you found by him is that he prosetyzises. You don't care that what he brings is a goy gomur into klal yisroel.
bECAUSE YOUR MIND IS SO BENT TO ATTACK TROPPER THAT YOU WANT TO FIND OTHERS THAT FIT YOUR MOLD ABOUT HIM...HERE YUO FOUND CUKIERKORN AND YOU HAVE WHAT TO DO....
I don't alternate anytihng. (if anything you are the one who alternates the criticism at troper from saying he prseltyzes and then saying he wants the convert to wwear a jacket and the acrobatic argumentation).
I say one thing: YOUR WAR ON HIM IS NOT JUSTIFIED!
1- you are wrong about the FACTS,
2- you are wrong about the nature of the problem: there is no issur even if he WOULD be wrosetyzing the way you misportray...(and the fact is that he does not go to the lengths that you confuse the olom...Even if mistakes happen, they happen by all of us and he is happy to fix those problems).
Your new contentions are the same old contentions: But the premise (as always) is flawed. Rav Troper owes you NOTHING! He is doing something which carries no ISSUR . He has backing from gedolim. He does not need to show you letters from any Gadol. you hve to show where he was wrong. You haven;t shown even the basic issur let alone that we have here a crime that it is worth going on a war...
But what you haven't done a bit of your zeal about your nonsensical war over a non issur, is the REAL WAR the war wheere (not over a 5$ theft, but over MILLION $ theft) . This is ibizarre.
Dion't give your "red herrings". Start internalizing, there is a concept "amputate a hand to sve a life" .This is not a red herring: "how can you amputate the hand.?" I reply: "but i'm saving a life...", you reply: "don't give the red herring....don't amputate the hand". Your bobeh mayssos for two years is clearly that you do not care a bit for THE LIFE of the problem. At one one time you invented "they both stink"! how silly and pathetic. Yes, this approach is what gave you the narrishkeyt of saying that the problem with Cukierkorn is "proseltyzing"! you give Cukierkorn" a legitimacy and go after his 5$ theft!
Hamotzvi mechaveroy OLOV horayyo! you haven'tproduced any and Rt does not owe you any! In the meantime he taking away some fake converts from the flatbush rabbi and thatis what counts!
Here is Rabbi Cukierkorns credentials. He comes from a family of Rbbi's going back 700 or 800 years.
ReplyDeleteHis grandmother's grandfather was the Kotske Rebbe. Besides the Rebbe of Kotske, he is also related to Rabbi Meir Shapiro of Lublin, the founder of Yeshiva Chochme Lublin and who was also the president of Agudat Israel political party. Rabbi Cukierkorn is also a descendent of Pinchas of Koretz and studied at Rabbinical College of America in Morristown, NJ at the Aleph Institute in Philadelphia, PA, and at Yeshiva Ayshel Avrham in Monsey, N Y.
He got his Smicha at Monsey. Wouldn't that make him an orthodox Rav? Another interesting fact not mentioned anywhere above is that Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson of righteous memory was named after Rabbi Cukierkorns Grandfather who migrated to Brazil from Poland in 1929.
It's ok to be critical of the act of proseltizing, but be careful when criticising a Rabbi, as it says Pirke Avot, keep your tongue from evil, and your lips from speaking guile.
I would like to comment about conversion:
ReplyDeleteThe Torah commands this:
“הקהל (haqeheil; congregate—verb root of Q’hil•âh′) ha-am, the men, the women, and the tots; and your geir who is within your gates; so that they will Shәm•a′ and so that they will learn, and they will revere י–ה your Ëlohim′, and will keep shomeir′ to do all of the matters of this Tor•âh′.” – Deuteronomy 31:12
(Torah akhat yiheyeh la-ezrakh; wә-la-geir hagar be•tokh•e•khem
“One Tor•âh′ shall be for the citizen [i.e. native Yi•s’r•â•eil′i]; and for the resident-alien who resides among you).” S’hemot [Exodus] 12:49
Both geirim – non-Jewish Torah-observant proselytes [Documentation that geirim are not equivalent to ‘Jewish converts’: Link] – and Jews are required according to Torah to keep the mitzwot to the utmost of their ability.
The person looking up the terms זר (zar) and גוים (goyim) - i.e. non-Jews whom don’t keep Torah, including those whom are satisfied with only keeping the seven laws of Noakh - in a Hebrew concordance for Tana’’kh finds out that these groups are not in a relationsship with haSheim; and that the only thing goyim are promised in Tana”kh is destruction. They are not promised ha-olam haba. These groups are according to Tana’’kh required to keep the mitzwot of Torah and when keeping the minimum requirements and undertaking to observe the mitzwot of Torah non-selectively before a beit din, they get the status of a geir toshav [Documentation: Link.
Thus if we care for haSheims creations and acknowledge that He loves them and wants a relationsship with them, we must show them why they are required to keep Torah; and this requirement includes conversion as it is explicitly commanded in Shemot 12:48.
“Jews were apparently extraordinarily successful in winning converts” - quote by the Scholar Louis Feldman which he corroborates with many statements in his book Jew and Gentile in the Ancient World.