Guest Post: LazerA's comment to "Kollel & the needs of the Times":
Given that such studies cannot even begin until the student is a fully matured Talmudic scholar, the idea that we could readily produce such experts in "few years" is simply not realistic.
First, on the facts, while there are certainly some kollel yungerleit who never really settle down to learn seriously, the vast majority of such fellows leave kollel after only a few years. From my observation, the vast majority of kollel fellows leave kollel after only a four or five years regardless of how well they are learning. (I am, obviously, only talking about America. Israel is an entirely different story.)
As for the idea of "expertise", the basic ideology of Torah l'shma expoused by R' Aharon Kotler and others is that the purpose of learning Torah is simply to learn Torah. Expertise in any specific area - including semicha - is, for the most part, a by-product of this endeavor. Obviously, there are many bnei Torah who, for whatever reason, find themselves attracted to a particular area and become experts, but that is not the primary function or goal of a yeshiva or kollel.
To say that bnei Torah who are studying b'hasmada for years and are, in many cases, bekiim in shas, are learning "aimlessly" because they haven't gotten semicha demonstrates a basic ideological difference. This difference may well be the most critical distinction between the "chareidi" worldview and that of the "Modern" Orthodox.
A) A very substantial portion of kollel yungerleit receive their primary support from their families and from their wive's employment. Just as an example, when I was in kollel, I never received any government funds nor did I get any kollel checks. (I also did not receive money from my family.)
B) Those who take tzedaka while in kollel are taking it from fellow Jews.
C) It is questionable whether taking government money is considered public. The standard definition of בפרהסיא is in front of ten men. It seems to me that getting a check in the mail is certainly not בפרהסיא. Cashing a WIC check or using one of those government cards at the checkout counter would probably also not be, but it might depend on how obvious it is.
D) Even if it is, you have to determine whether or not they have the ability to do otherwise. Such a determination can only be made case by case.
E) In my opinion, it is questionable whether taking government money is considered taking charity in the first place. (Briefly, as our government moves more and more in the direction of socialism, taking government money is just how the system works. Almost everyone takes government money in some form or another. Entire industries, e.g. agriculture, are based on government handouts.)
F) There is no connection, to my knowledge, between being kosher for eidus and being counted for a minyan.
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While I don't agree with much of Bartley Kulp's comment, he does raise an important issue regarding the economic viability of the kollel system. It seems to me that while this is a major issue in Israel, it is much less so in America. I simply know too many former kollel fellows who went off to law school (or similar) and/or got good jobs. At the same time, I know even more fellows who never learned in kollel who are working as checkout clerks (some with college educations). I am not convinced that spending three to five years in kollel creates that great an economic disadvantage. (As for those who chose to stay in kollel for much longer, in that case we are dealing with a relatively small and very committed group that will either stay in kollel permanently or go on to the rabbinate (or related fields) or into education. The next generation will need roshei yeshiva also, after all.)
Again, it seems to me that the bulk of these criticisms are rooted less in actual practical issues but in basic differences in ideology. For those who truly believe that limud haTorah, in of itself, is the key to all of klall Yisrael's success materially and spiritually, these arguments are, for the most part, non-sequiturs. Perhaps the most dissonant idea is the apparent underlying assumption that we already have "enough" talmidei chachamim. I'm not sure if that is even possible, but, even if it is, I certainly don't think that we are anywhere near that point yet.
I would add an additional point. There are a fair number (I won't guess at percentages) of yeshiva students who don't really "come into their own" in learning until they are in their twenties. (I was one such, and I wasn't alone.) To rule out kollel for such students would mean eliminating their most productive years of Torah study.
Quite frankly, many of these complaints sound too much like social engineering. Ultimately we are talking about private decisions made by individuals. Who is going to decide who gets the chance to become a talmid chacham and who doesn't? Who is going to decide when someone has "lost his chance"? Without answering those questions, all of this is just kvetching.
Garnel Ironheart said...While you might be able to produce people with reasonable competence in various areas, you would not be producing experts. I think we are dealing here with a different standard of expertise. For example, in my opinion (which I believe is shared by most bnei Torah), an expert in kashrus has a ready knowledge of all of relevant Tur/Shulchan Aruch, with the sugyos in Shas and a wide range of knowledge in the relevant shailos u'teshuvos.
For one thing, if the yeshivos actually had dedicated tracks and students had to choose one, you could produce experts in various areas after only a few years.
Given that such studies cannot even begin until the student is a fully matured Talmudic scholar, the idea that we could readily produce such experts in "few years" is simply not realistic.
It's because most guys sit and "learn" aimlessly (well, they won't admit it but if you haven't learned enough to get semichah after 10 years and you're still just "learning" it's aimless, I mean, they even given you only so many years to get a PhD!) instead of towards a defined goal of expertise.Here we are dealing with an obvious major difference in ideology.
First, on the facts, while there are certainly some kollel yungerleit who never really settle down to learn seriously, the vast majority of such fellows leave kollel after only a few years. From my observation, the vast majority of kollel fellows leave kollel after only a four or five years regardless of how well they are learning. (I am, obviously, only talking about America. Israel is an entirely different story.)
As for the idea of "expertise", the basic ideology of Torah l'shma expoused by R' Aharon Kotler and others is that the purpose of learning Torah is simply to learn Torah. Expertise in any specific area - including semicha - is, for the most part, a by-product of this endeavor. Obviously, there are many bnei Torah who, for whatever reason, find themselves attracted to a particular area and become experts, but that is not the primary function or goal of a yeshiva or kollel.
To say that bnei Torah who are studying b'hasmada for years and are, in many cases, bekiim in shas, are learning "aimlessly" because they haven't gotten semicha demonstrates a basic ideological difference. This difference may well be the most critical distinction between the "chareidi" worldview and that of the "Modern" Orthodox.
Earner said...I am not sure I am following this. The youth that are off the derech are not former kollel fellows. While divorce is rising throughout the Orthodox Jewish world, I suspect that it is probably lowest amongst those engaged in long-term Torah study. It certainly isn't higher. The same thing is true with regard to "drug use, sexual problems etc etc". I can't say that kollelim will save the general community from these problems, but they certainly aren't contributing to them in any significant way.
Whatever these yungerleit are learning in kollel after their chassunas it is not worth much as an unprecedented number of our youth are off the derech, there are a record number of divorces and our communities are plagued by drug use, sexual problems etc etc in our communities is a real Chillul Hashem.
The widespread practice of defrauding the government of both Israel and the US to support our families so men can "sit and learn" is stealing. To raise an entire generation to steal tzedakkah from the sick and disabled in the name of "Torah", is a crime against the Torah and a chillul Hashem.I agree with you that defrauding the government is stealing. Any yeshiva or kollel that engages in such forbidden practices should be shut down. But this problem is not inherent in the idea of kollel. I don't know how widespread these forbidden practices are. I, personally. did not encounter such fraudulent practices when I was in kollel. Granted, many yeshivos and kollelim are very adept at working the system to get as much money as is legally possible from the government. There are also kollelim (in America, at least) that specifically prohibit their members from taking any money from the government.
A man who receives tzedakka cannot even qualify as a kosher witness, so what does that say about the generation of learners who live off of the gov't and the tzeddaka of our communities? That they should not even be counted for a minyan.This is a pretty radical statement to make without supporting it. To my knowledge, only a person who publicly takes charity from non-Jews when he could do so privately is invalid for testimony. (Yoreh Deah 34:18) Applying this to kolleleit is obviously problematic for many reasons:
A) A very substantial portion of kollel yungerleit receive their primary support from their families and from their wive's employment. Just as an example, when I was in kollel, I never received any government funds nor did I get any kollel checks. (I also did not receive money from my family.)
B) Those who take tzedaka while in kollel are taking it from fellow Jews.
C) It is questionable whether taking government money is considered public. The standard definition of בפרהסיא is in front of ten men. It seems to me that getting a check in the mail is certainly not בפרהסיא. Cashing a WIC check or using one of those government cards at the checkout counter would probably also not be, but it might depend on how obvious it is.
D) Even if it is, you have to determine whether or not they have the ability to do otherwise. Such a determination can only be made case by case.
E) In my opinion, it is questionable whether taking government money is considered taking charity in the first place. (Briefly, as our government moves more and more in the direction of socialism, taking government money is just how the system works. Almost everyone takes government money in some form or another. Entire industries, e.g. agriculture, are based on government handouts.)
F) There is no connection, to my knowledge, between being kosher for eidus and being counted for a minyan.
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While I don't agree with much of Bartley Kulp's comment, he does raise an important issue regarding the economic viability of the kollel system. It seems to me that while this is a major issue in Israel, it is much less so in America. I simply know too many former kollel fellows who went off to law school (or similar) and/or got good jobs. At the same time, I know even more fellows who never learned in kollel who are working as checkout clerks (some with college educations). I am not convinced that spending three to five years in kollel creates that great an economic disadvantage. (As for those who chose to stay in kollel for much longer, in that case we are dealing with a relatively small and very committed group that will either stay in kollel permanently or go on to the rabbinate (or related fields) or into education. The next generation will need roshei yeshiva also, after all.)
Again, it seems to me that the bulk of these criticisms are rooted less in actual practical issues but in basic differences in ideology. For those who truly believe that limud haTorah, in of itself, is the key to all of klall Yisrael's success materially and spiritually, these arguments are, for the most part, non-sequiturs. Perhaps the most dissonant idea is the apparent underlying assumption that we already have "enough" talmidei chachamim. I'm not sure if that is even possible, but, even if it is, I certainly don't think that we are anywhere near that point yet.
I would add an additional point. There are a fair number (I won't guess at percentages) of yeshiva students who don't really "come into their own" in learning until they are in their twenties. (I was one such, and I wasn't alone.) To rule out kollel for such students would mean eliminating their most productive years of Torah study.
Quite frankly, many of these complaints sound too much like social engineering. Ultimately we are talking about private decisions made by individuals. Who is going to decide who gets the chance to become a talmid chacham and who doesn't? Who is going to decide when someone has "lost his chance"? Without answering those questions, all of this is just kvetching.
I would have to say that learning with a goal can be incredibly helpful. Personally I didn't "come into my own" in learning until I started learning for Semicha. As it was a goal as well as a way of actually measuring progress. Just a personal opinion though.
ReplyDeleteOur children who are off the derech are the products of the chinuch of our kollel yungerleit.
ReplyDeleteA person who takes tzedaka for himself or his family to live on is not a kosher witness because his judgment is compromised. This was discussed in Hok L'Yisrael.
WIC, Section 8, welfare, Medicaid are certainly non Jewish charity programs because they are designed to support the truly destitute and those who are too sick to work. Recipients of these programs receive gov't aid publicly.
Some Rabbis will not count a man who cannot be a kosher witness for a minyan. For example, a man who is retarded or blind. I know of one Dayan, who does not count a diabetic who cannot fast on Yom Kippur as a kosher witness or for a minyan.
As much as I'm impressed with the responses themselves, I'm also impressed with the civility of LazerA's tone in dealing with such baseless accusations.
ReplyDeleteI hope I can learn from his example.
mekubal said...
ReplyDeleteI would have to say that learning with a goal can be incredibly helpful. Personally I didn't "come into my own" in learning until I started learning for Semicha. As it was a goal as well as a way of actually measuring progress. Just a personal opinion though.
This is a very valid point and is, in my opinion, an element that is often missing in our yeshivos. Garnel's point regarding "aimlessness" has some validity, though generally not with long-term kolleleit (which was where he was applying it).
The question at hand is not the use of a goals as motivational tools to improve our limud haTorah but the establishment of goals as the primary purpose for our limud haTorah.
P.S. FKM, thanks.
Earner said...
ReplyDeleteOur children who are off the derech are the products of the chinuch of our kollel yungerleit.
I don't know what this means. Perhaps you could explain the mechanism by which kollel yungerleit are causing children to go off the derech.
The overwhelming majority of young people from Orthodox homes today are not "off the derech." This is a significant improvement over the situation of roughly 50-60 years ago, when most young people from Orthodox homes in America were abandoning Orthodoxy.
The rise of the major yeshivos and kollelim has been paralleled by a great improvement in the Orthodox Jewish community's ability to keep its children within the fold. I would argue the two are related.
Also, I doubt that one could reasonably claim that there is a greater proportion of young people abandoning Orthodoxy in those communities that stress kollel, than in those communities that do not.
A person who takes tzedaka for himself or his family to live on is not a kosher witness because his judgment is compromised. This was discussed in Hok L'Yisrael.
That is not a useful reference (Chok l'Yisrael is five fat, densely printed volumes). Can you say where in Chok l'Yisrael? Or, better, what source was Chok l'Yisrael quoting? (Chok l'Yisrael, in of itself, is not a source for anything. It is a likut.)
Given that your claim appears to contradict the Shulchan Aruch, the likelihood is that you misunderstood the source you read.
WIC, Section 8, welfare, Medicaid are certainly non Jewish charity programs because they are designed to support the truly destitute and those who are too sick to work. Recipients of these programs receive gov't aid publicly.
I alread gave my arguments why I disagree. You are responding by repeating your assertion without any additional evidence or response to my arguments.
Some Rabbis will not count a man who cannot be a kosher witness for a minyan. For example, a man who is retarded or blind. I know of one Dayan, who does not count a diabetic who cannot fast on Yom Kippur as a kosher witness or for a minyan.
These are very dubious claims on several levels. Do you have a rabbi who has actually stated that a kollel yungerman cannot be counted for a minyan?
Quite frankly, it seems to me that you're arguments are rooted in a visceral dislike for the entire concept of kollel, rather than reason. While your comments have been instructive as illustrations of how irrational the hatred for bnei Torah can be, even within the Orthodox community, they have not actually contributed anything substantive to the discussion.
The concept of "Haredi Harvard", the Lithuanian yeshiva began in Europe about 150 years ago in response to Haskala and in order to discourage young men from attending university.
ReplyDeletePerhaps it is time to accept that the Jewish people cannot support a significant percentage of families whose head of households do not work.
The affluence of the last generation of American Jews is now a memory. If we will expect women to support large families, we will have to repeal the Takana against marrying more than one wife because statistically women earn significantly less on average than men.
The system is bankrupt and it is not fair to raise our sons without a parnassa (which is the same as raising him to be a criminal) or our daughters to be beggars.
Earners,
ReplyDeleteHad you not written your first comments, then your last comments would carry more weight as they ought to be explored if the kollel system is overly abused and especially in today's situations if it is proper live in a fashion where the affluence of the past may be a memory.
But your first comments really attest to Lazera's point that there may be something beyond objectivity which drives your opposition to the kollel system. For whether or not you may find that amongst their population there is a percentage that went off the derech due to the hardships of kollel lifestyle; the truth will probably incline towards the opposite of your assertions, for propbably it is precisely amongst children of kollel yungerleit that there is the lowest number of off the derech for they do imbue to their offspring a life of torah and mitzvot with a greater intensity and greater level of commitment and belief.
Earners said...
ReplyDeleteThe concept of "Haredi Harvard", the Lithuanian yeshiva began in Europe about 150 years ago in response to Haskala and in order to discourage young men from attending university.
This is a very dubious claim in several respects:
A) Simply as a matter of basic history, virtually anyone discussing this issue would date the beginning of the modern yeshiva movement from the founding of the Yeshiva of Volozhin in 1802, more than two centuries ago.
B) While the founding of Volozhin and its related yeshivos was a major change in the way yeshivos were organized and funded, it did not really represent a fundamental change in how Torah scholarship was pursued. (It was more a response to how individual Jewish communities were no longer providing the necessary funding for such scholarship.)
The ideal of intensive long-term Torah study, with communal support, is of very great antiquity. (The simple fact of the halachic debate we have already discussed is testimony to this.) R' Binyamin of Tudela, in his famous travel journals from the 12th century, describes such yeshivos in various communities. For example, he speaks of such a yeshiva in Lunel, "The students that come from distant lands to learn the Law are taught, boarded, lodged and clothed by the congregation, so long as they attend to house of study."
There are other similar historical accounts from many periods in history.
C) The claim that the yeshivos were a response to Haskala is dubious on its face for the simple fact that the Volozhin yeshiva was founded at the very beginning of the 19th century and the Haskalah movement did not become a significant force (especially in Eastern Europe) until mid-century.
D) The claim that the yeshivos were intended to discourage attendence at non-Jewish colleges is, quite frankly, absurd. Jews were not permitted to attend the non-Jewish colleges in Eastern Europe. There is a reason why all the great Eastern European maskilim had good yeshiva educations. Those were the only centers of higher learning open to them! If the yeshiva movement had originated in Germany or France, your claim might have made some sense, but the great yeshivas of the 19th century were in Eastern Europe.
Perhaps it is time to accept that the Jewish people cannot support a significant percentage of families whose head of households do not work.
The affluence of the last generation of American Jews is now a memory.
It is probably true that a serious drop in affluence within the Orthodox community will probably result in a parallel drop in the numbers of young men in kollel. This would be unfortunate but inevitable.
I don't know if I agree that this drop in affluence has already occured. In my opinion, if anything, the biggest problem the yeshivos and kollelim face is an excess of affluence. Many of our young people have been raised in such comfortable environments that they are unable to make the necessary sacrifices for long-term study in kollel. (I don't want to say much more in this regard lest I violate "al tiftach peh l'satan.")
In any event, I don't know if anyone has actual numbers on this, but, as I have stated previously, the overwhelming majority of kollelleit go to work after four to five years. To describe the current situation in the frum community in America as being a "a significant percentage of families whose head of households do not work" is almost certainly not accurate. Of course, much depends on how you count the numbers (e.g. who is considered part of the "Jewish people" for this calculation. All Jews? All Orthodox Jews? A chareidi Jews? All Lakewood alumni?) and what you consider significant.
If we will expect women to support large families, we will have to repeal the Takana against marrying more than one wife because statistically women earn significantly less on average than men.
Yeah, that's gonna happen.
The system is bankrupt and it is not fair to raise our sons without a parnassa (which is the same as raising him to be a criminal) or our daughters to be beggars.
I'm not sure what you mean when you say that the "system is bankrupt." If you are talking about finances, then, as I have said, I am far from convinced. By any reasonable historical standard, the frum Jewish world of the early 21st century is one of the most affluent of all time. To claim that we are simply incapable of shouldering a burden that previous generations did with far greater sacrifice says much more about our values than it does about our finances.
As for raising our children without a parnassa, asides for the fact that this is a very, very old debate (as per the last mishna in Kiddushin), you are grossly oversimplifying the situation. Firstly, throughout the bulk of human history, teaching your child a trade meant apprenticing him at a very young age to a craftsman (who, in some cases, was the father). Virtually no one in the Western world does that anymore. In the Western world, "teaching a trade" means providing your child with an education that equips him to viably function in our civilization. The overwhelming majority of American yeshiva students receive valid high school diplomas and are fully literate and functional. (Granted, not every yeshiva does a great job, and not every student does well. That has been true throughout history as well.)
The only factor that is missing is a college education. Being that, according to the 2000 Census, only 24% of Americans had completed even a bachelor's degree (about 52% have attended "some college or more"), it is certainly debatable if we can truly consider this an obligation. There is no basis in halacha or hashkafa for only accepting a professional career as a valid parnassa.
I know of one Dayan, who does not count a diabetic who cannot fast on Yom Kippur as a kosher witness or for a minyan.
ReplyDeleteA diabetic?!? What on earth would passul him for eidus? I suspect that he wouldn't count him for a minyan on a public fast day. You really mixed this one up.