Rav Wolbe (Advice to chasanim #1): Please tell me my dear chasan what is your view as to the joint basis that you want to build your marriage?. The chasan replied, “ The answer is obvious we should have love for each other!” I assumed you would give me such an answer so now permit me to ask a harsh question and excuse me for my contrary view which might upset you but afterall the goal of this conversation is for the purpose of proper prepation for the well being of your home. Therefore it is best thar you get used to being realistic in dealing with your wife. In many matters the reality of married life is totally contrary to that which the typical yeshiva student imagines it to be. And when you determine what the reality is you will see it is not according to your preconceptions. I have another question for you. It is very likely that after you get married you will discover that you and your wife disagree on a number of issues. It will become obvious that even in some matters there is absolutely no common understanding. Therefore relying on common understanding is a very poor foundation for the relationship. And as far as love is concerned . We know that only unconditional love lasts. Any conditional love can readily turn to actual hatred. Consequently it is not possible to be secure with conditional love and therefore it is not a strong foundation for your home. Furthermore concerning love, I don’t mean that which the masses call love which the Chazon Ish famously stated “that which is commonly called love we call “kares!” A Ben Torah who clings strongly to the values expressed by the Igros Kodesh which is attributed to the Ramban knows how great is the obligation to build a relationship of love and mutuality between himself and his wife. It is correct nevertheless that if love alone is the foundation to the relationship – we are talking about a long term relationship- day after day year after year until 120. In different circumstances and conditions – and there is no home that does have periodic crises - and then it is very likely that the love will turn to hatred. Even though I hope that will prove to be transient But still it can not be the reliable foundation of the relationship. You frighten me! I hope that with G-d’s help matters will not degenerate.. I am not trying to scare you but to merely to assure you by showing you a stronger foundation yo your home than what you were thinking . it is “It is good for a man to assume responsibility when he is young. That is the responsibility (yoke) of a wife (Koheles Rabbah 3:24). The idea of responsibilty – not love - -is the best foundation. Meaning you need to accept the responsibility for the well being of your wife in all circumstances, at all times and never neglect it.
I understand he was a BT. were there any Bt gedolim? Was steinsaltz considered a gadol?
ReplyDeleteGeneivas daas article
ReplyDeletehttps://blogs.timesofisrael.com/withholding-information-is-a-form-of-theft-eruvin-71/
But in yeshivas, they are goneiv daas on a daily basis.
How is that justified?
"The 9,000-15,000 Jews remaining in Iran “face societal discrimination and harassment,” the report says. They cannot serve in the judiciary, the security services, or various other professions. They “may not engage in public religious expression.” Jewish schools must have Muslim principals, must remain open on the Jewish Sabbath, and must have their curricula and textbooks approved by the authorities. Iranian government officials “employ anti-Semitic rhetoric in official statements and to sanction it in media outlets, publications, and books,” “government-sponsored rallies continued to include chants of ‘Death to Israel,’” and “local newspapers carried editorial cartoons that were anti-Semitic.”"
ReplyDeletehttps://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/289224
Iranian regime forces Jews to be mechalel shabbat, but some poskim
Claim they are totally free and not oppressed.
thanks for the downtick IR#
ReplyDeleteIf a question is asked, I found that generally the bottom line is "because I said so" or "because i am a rabbi". The Ruach hachaim, which ws written by Rav Chaim Volozhiner (founder of the modern yeshiva) taught in the name of Vilna Gaon, that sometimes the truth lies with the student, and he must engage in a holy war with the teacher in order to get to the truth. By ignoring the concept of truth, or where honest logic will lead to, and instead using the fist of authority, which is what is done in most Yeshivot (including MO ones), it is a) a departue fromt eh derech of the Gra, and b) geneivas daas.
http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2012/10/respectfully-disagreeing-with-earlier.html
ReplyDeleteMaking defamatory blanket statements, about a broad group of people, without providing concrete examples supporting such allegations, is slanderous.
ReplyDeleteFYI, slander is oral defamation. Libel, is written defamation.
ReplyDeleteOf the two, Libel is far more serious. Slander, is also harder to prove, sometimes.
did you read the above article in the name of Rav wolbe?
ReplyDelete"In many matters the reality of married life is
totally contrary to that which the typical yeshiva student imagines it to be."
In other words, what is told to the bochrim is sheker.
You want a concrete example, previous Hareidi Gedolim who attacked R' Soloveitchik, and attacked university education. yet, many people earn livings from having studied law, medicine, engineering etc. This pack of lies is then repeated by regular rabbis who teach in yeshivas, and their hatred is amplified towards e.g. YU or university educated people.
This is not only goneivas daat, but is geneiva in terms of the 10 commandments, which teach a) do no steal, and b) 6 days you shall work.
If you steal a man's livelihood from him that is geneiva, and that is also destroying a family of israel. Of course for the Desslerites, there is no problem in destroying thousands of Jews to produce one Hareidi "gadol".
There is also a furhter crime, when this is doen to orphans, who do not have a father or rich family to support them, and they are told lies by rabbonim, against making a parnassah through rational worldly means. It is a serious aveirah to oppress an orphan.
ReplyDeleteRabbis are allowed to speak about an idealistic lifestyle, but people have free choice, and they make their life choices accordingly, deciding for themselves if they want to live their lives that way.
ReplyDeleteAfter making their decision, people need take personal responsibility for their life choices, and not blame others for any failures that may arise from the choices that they themselves made.
If x misleads y, it is geneivas daas. That's the gist of the link by rabbi Friedman that I posted. The gemara he cites doesn't say what you said - it blames the one who gives bad or misleading advice.
ReplyDeleteRabbi Wolbe allegedly said, that "In many matters, the reality of married life is totally contrary to that which the typical yeshiva student imagines it to be."
ReplyDeleteYou extrapolated from that, that “in other words, what is told to the bochrim is sheker”.
That’s a baseless conclusion. Nothing in Rabbi Wolbe’s statement indicates what is being told to the students. It merely mentions what students IMAGINE. People imagine many things, and you shouldn’t blame other people for the student’s unrealistic imaginations.
So if they watch movies, TV, internet etc, then you can blame these influences. On the other hand, if they develop wrong, unrealistic ideas whilst under the opposite influence - namely yeshiva environment, then you can't blame the yeshiva environment.
ReplyDeleteAs always, very well done!!
ReplyDelete🎯🎯🎯
ReplyDeleteActually, you are right. I'm bitter from some of my negative experiences.
ReplyDeleteIf Y misleads himself to make a life choice which he might regret later, that it is NOT geneivas daas (Chullin 94b).
ReplyDeleteThe topic being discussed is regarding a person's imaginations and unrealisitic fantasies, specifically in the realm of marriage.
ReplyDeleteThese can be fueled by many different forms of influence, over the course of a person's lifetime, and it's usually impossible to pinpoint exactly where the person got them from.
The bottom line is that people need take personal responsibility for their life choices, and not blame others for their failures.
But it is also reasonable to assume that the teachings of their rabbis (or, the failure to teach contrary to the imaginings) play a part in how students' unrealistic imaginations materialize. Implicit in Rav Wolbe's comment is the notion that if all the rabbis were teaching wisdom that Rav Wolbe has about the reality of marriage, the bochurim likely wouldn't harbor false impressions about marriage. Since they don't, Rav Wolbe is attempting to help this chasan with his own advice.
ReplyDeleteYes, so Y ought to avoid X and their ilk. Stay far from an evil person.
ReplyDeleteResponsibility - true.
ReplyDeleteHowever, a mechanech must also take responsibility.
The leshon used in the article "typical yeshiva bochor" implies that it is a cultural thing, ie the general milieu leads to such views. On the other hand, there is no guarantee that the general population will be any more enlightened.
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ReplyDelete