Chazon Ish (Igros Kodesh #10): Question: Concerning a person who suffers from severe depression who has tried to commit suicide. Answer. Perhaps it would be helpful to teach his wife to speak to him words of endearment and affection. Perhaps he is one who takes a very ascetic approach to marital relations. In truth that is what he needs for a cure as the Yaavetz states in his Siddur, "There is someone I know who fell into a severe depression and it became apparent from what he said that it is the result of studying Musar books. Because of these pietistic studies he only has marital relations once a week and that only happens after he makes many religious preparations and he only does it exactly at midnight...I told him that he should increase the frequency of marital relations even having them 3 or 4 times a week – or more. And he should be involved in showing affection and hugging and kissing..." Thank G-d he recovered completely from his depression and thus we see clear proof that the advice of the Yaavetz is very helpful....
Rav Yaakov Emden (Siddur):[[ "There is someone I know who fell into a severe depression and it became apparent from what he said that it is the result of studying Musar books. Because of these pietistic studies he only has marital relations once a week and that only happens after he makes many religious preparations and he only does it exactly at midnight...I told him that he should increase the frequency of marital relations even having them 3 or 4 times a week – or more. And he should be involved in showing affection and hugging and kissing... Thank G-d he recovered completely from his depression."
Steipler (Igros Kodesh #1): 1) While it is true that asceticism in dealing with the lusts of this world is an important thing [assuming that it is done for the sake of heaven to give pleasure to G-d and not just to be more developed in spirituality] but that is only if it is done after he has already fulfilled is Torah obligations. However if by being ascetic he nullifies the slightest of his Torah obligations then his deeds are credited to the Sitra Acher [evil] - G-d forbid and he doesn’t advance in true spirituality. So even though he views himself as becoming a more elevated being by his asceticism he in fact is burying himself in the grave of pride by considering himself a very spiritual person when in fact his spirituality is seriously defective. And this frequently manifests itself as degradation in that it leads him to committing an actual Torah prohibition and he is not able to restrain himself at all as we know from a actual case where this happened – G-d should preserve us!Conjugal rights of the wife is a Torah commandment just as serious as eating matzo. And even ignoring it when she is pregnant [when the wife has not truly excused him wholeheartedly from his obligations] makes into a complete sinner. And sins like this which are between two people are not atoned for even by Yom Kippur. He is like a robber or mugger who steals from his wife what is owed to her. This is comparable to killing his wife since it is known that the prime hope of a woman in this world is that she have a husband who loves her. Therefore when she see that he doesn’t love her, it is almost life threatening (pikuach nefesh) because of the great upset and anguish he causes her by making her like a widow while her husband is still alive.The conjugal obligations of workers is twice a week, for a talmid chachom it is once a week. The Achronim write that in modern times we do not have people who are called talmidei chachomim according to Chazal [that is because in modern times we are not properly careful about not nullifying ourselves from Torah study and there are other reasons], nevertheless the reason why a talmid chachom only has an obligation once a week is because the Torah weakens his physical strength. That reason would therefore apply also a talmid chachom in modern times. However a talmid chachom who knows that he has the strength retains the obligation of having intercourse twice a week. This is how it is explained in the Biur Halacha (O.C. 240). This was the practice of the Chasam Sofer as is known – see the Mishna Berura there. It is also the practise of most talmidei chachomim in modern times ]before they reach old age ] It is obvious that she married with the understanding that her husband would follow the accepted practise. And furthermore the husband is obligated by the kesuba to conduct himself according to normative practise [for those similar to himself]. It is obvious that if he wants to exempt himself by have intercourse only once a week and not twice that this is close to creating a situation of a genuine uncertainty regarding a Torah obligation. Aside from that there is a separate obligation for the husband when he is aware that she desires to have relations – even if she indicates this by very slight hints as is explained in Shulchan Aruch (O.C. 240:1 which is from Pesachim 72 and in a number of other places.2) The details of sexual intercourse of the mitzva of conjugal obligations are explained in the Siddur of Rav Yaakov Emden in the section of the laws of Shabbos night. It should be studied carefully because these are actual halachic obligations. Because according to the Torah it is prohibited to have intercourse in circumstances where the woman is not interested and therefore it is necessary to get her interested with intimate activities such as hugging and kissing until she is sexual aroused and desires intercourse. Because if this is not done first – it is like placing her before a lion who mauls and eats as is explained in Pesachim (49). [It is a terrible sin to deprive her of her sexual rights even if he is doing it for the sake of piety and asceticism. Taking what belongs to his wife can not be the basis of piety by theft and treating her as a slave]. Furthermore to have sexual intercourse against her will results in having children who are sinners and rejecters of Torah – they are call bnei anusa (children of rape).A husband who grabs and has intercourse immediately without preliminary intimacy and then separates immediate after ejaculation and leaves her, might think that he is acting like a highly spiritual angel. But in actual truth he has not lowered his lust at all even though he definitely has placated his desires for the time being sine he has in fact obtained full pleasure from this intercourse. In contrast his wife felt no pleasures at all from this abrupt sexual act. In fact she has been hurt and shamed and the tears she sheds in private will not go unanswered. That is because our Sages(Bava Metzia) tell us that the Gate of Tears has not been closed. They say that a man should be very careful with his wife honor because she readily cries. There is no question that such a brutal act arouses Divine judgment against him. Furthermore he does not merit to have Divine help either in spiritual or material issues. And this that he mistakenly thinks he becomes a highly spiritual person by trying to be insensitive to his wife in sexual matters – this is a worthless fantasy and a lie. That is because from sins and transgression, one becomes blemished and spiritually impure – not elevated.And this is stated in Shulchan Aruch (240:8) that it is done only after his wife is placated and is interested in doing it. Because otherwise it is prohibited to have intercourse without her consent as is explicit there in the Shulchan Aruch (240:3) and as is explained in the Siddur of Rav Yaakov Emden and this is actual Torah halacha. [In particular what is written in Shulchan Aruch (68). We see in Orchos Chaim in the name of Neziros Shimshon who writes that according to the Zohar and the writings of the Arizal – the halacha is in accord with the first explanation [that one should not have intent for the sake of pleasure but only for the sake of doing a mitzva]. However according to the second and third explanations [that they should be dressed during intercourse and that it should be done quickly] the opposite is true and there is a prohibition in doing this according to kabbalah. Nevertheless even according to the view of the Shulchan Aruch this is only if done with the full agreement of the wife. And thus is my understanding.3) One who is intimate with his wife with hugging and other things for the sake of Heaven because he wants to have mercy on her that she shouldn’t be pained and feel abandoned – this will not cause the slightest weakening of his fear of Heaven or succumbing to lust. The opposite is true – it will bring him to holiness (kedusha) and he will be fulfilling the Torah command of imitating G-d. Just as He is merciful so to you should be merciful. Besides that hugging and kissing or any other act of intimacy is an inherent part of the mitzva of onah (conjugal duties) as is explained by the poskim regarding Shulchan Aruch (Y.D. 184:10) concerning the obligation when a man goes on a trip just before the time for his wife’s menstrual period. 4) While it is true that many talmidei chachomm conduct themselves in an ascetic manner in a number of intimate things – but that is only with the complete agreement of his wife and with her forgiveness with a full heart. And this agreement comes in most cases after it is explained to her that in truth her husband loves her and it is only for the sake of heaven that he is restraining himself. Or alternatively she married someone who is known as a tzadik whose reputation compensates for her loss of intimacy with him. But G-d forbid that the husband should conduct himself as an ascetic when it causes pain to his wife who is dependent upon him and does not forgive him whole heartedly concerning that which he is obligated to do for her.5) Our Sages (Yevamos 62b) say, One who loves his wife as himself and honors her more than himself…is described by the verse "You should know that you will have peace with your wife…." It is important to note that our Sages are not saying to love one's wife with the natural love that man is attracted to a woman but rather to love her with the love that friends have for each other - as someone he knows and has a covenant with him and that they are partners in many things and each one helps and receives help from the other. In addition the love he feels for her should also come from gratitude. He needs to have the clear image in his mind that if he had not gotten a wife and would have remained alone and isolated - how much suffering and pain he would have from this. But now that he has a wife his life is in place and functioning. The significance of gratitude is immeasurably important. In fact our Sages state in the Mishna Rabbi Eliezer (Chapter 7) that all those who lack gratitude to their fellow men will eventually lack gratitude towards G-d. If you look there you will see how extremely stringent they are in this matter. This type of love is what our Sages say a man is obligated to have towards his wife. And again this love does not come from the lust a man has for a woman at all but from one of the good attributes which he is obligated to have. He needs to have this type of love and feeling towards her when he strives to cause her rejoicing at the time of intercourse and well as before and afterwards. Such a relationship is not disgusting – chas v'shalom – but rather it is a mitzva. In fact he should conduct himself in this manner even if he were not obligated by the Torah and surely now that the Torah does obligated it - as we mentioned before.
Yaakov Emden was critical of the Rambam's Guide of the Perplexed - which is a very ascetic book. However, the reasons are not clear to me. R' Emden does dislike philosophy - which he says leads to apikorsus. he said the More nevuchim is so bad,, it couldn't have bene written by the Rambam. Are there specific reasons?
ReplyDeleteSo what the Steipler Gaon is saying is that being too frum is serving the sitra achera, and in fact he is saying that certain claims of the Shulchan Aruch are wrong! Well said.
ReplyDeleteThe above are by Gedolei Torah of previous generations who were giants even next to their contemporaries. It is their clarity and encompassing knowledge of Torah matters as well as metzius that gives authority to their statements, dispelling misconceptions that many hold or teach.
ReplyDeleteit is also worthwhile noting, that an understading of psychology would teach the same thing - that represion of natural behaviour, or hierarchy of needs causes only trouble and depression. Hamevin yavin.
Clearly none of these men were Gerrer Chasidim.
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ReplyDeleteMisconceptions about Modern Orthodoxy-
ReplyDeleteA Bt Rabbi, who is now teaching in a BT Yeshiva, was formerly an academic, teaching in a University. He was firstly MO, then he decided to become Haredi. Then he left his secular job to be in full time learning.
He was once, in his yeshiva, criticisng MO, and citing his own MO experience as an academic. His argument was that you cannot be a unviersity professor and be frum - acording to Haredi definition - because of the time required during the day to engage in learning Talmud.
This argument is is not only sheker, it is also ridiculous.
Making a living is not easy, whether being an academic, a professional or a businessman. Being in business can also detract from your daily schedule.
Hareidi, and also MO yeshivas are false economies - getting donations from wealth people (who do work very hard, spend many hours and are not learning all day) as well as Government.
the suggestion that working for a living somehow makes you a bad Jew is not Judaism at all, it is Christo-Islamo- nazism. In fact the talmud says that not teaching your son a trade is teaching him to steal (whcih presumably is what yeshivas are doing).
But for those who also accept the Torah, it tells us 6 days you shall work. that does not just mean we have a heter to drive cars and open tin cans for 6 days. It means working , toiling, whatever that may entail.
The fascism of Hareidi ideology is to de-Judaize people who try to make an honest living. A bit liek the Spanish inquisition.
Why mention this fellow but not his name? We don't know who you refer to, and why should his opinion matter? OTOH if it is someone known, then why can't he be named to his own opinions?
ReplyDeleteBecause I don't wish to publicly insult him. So I'm insulting a nameless fool.
ReplyDeleteit is an opinion held by many, and possibly the majority of the ultra-orthodox ilk.
ReplyDeleteIR is displeased 😆
ReplyDeleteIndeed. I’m displeased with you scurrilous rant about the Torah scholars and their teachings.
ReplyDeleteI won’t even address the straw man quote from a single unnamed BT rabbi. There’s no point in addressing alleged statements, from phantom unnamed people, that we don’t know if they even exist beyond your own imagination, let alone, if the alleged quote is being given over exactly as they said it, and in what context the words were stated.
If the premise that all yeshivas are false economies, is correct, based on the fact that they get donations from wealthy people; then you should also include the universities that are based on donations from wealthy people, and some of them have multi-billion dollar endowments [examples: Harvard - $41B, Yale - $30B, Stanford - $27B, Princeton - $25B, MIT - $17B].
Historically, patronage of the arts and other disciplines has existed from the ancient world onward, especially in medieval and Renaissance Europe. However the Torah has also provided for such a mechanism for Torah scholars [see Rambam (Hilchos Shemittah 13:12-13)], and there is nothing wrong with such a system. In fact, sponsoring Torah study is the next best thing to studying Torah yourself.
Most troubling is the assertion that the Torah mandates that one MUST toil for 6 days, implying that one who doesn’t do so is transgressing one of the Ten Commandments.
Do you have any sources from Chazal to back up such a pejorative interpretation, that “תעשה” means that you MUST do work, not that you MAY do work. Do you have any sources from Chazal to back up your interpretation that this is allegedly not referring to the 39 various form of labor that a person may do in the course of the day?
Based on the amount of time you spend at your computer, do you practice what you preach? Does commenting on Disqus, count as the required “toil”?
If you have issues with your current life, you shouldn’t be taking it out on the entire Torah world.
I have no idea who it is, but with him being nameless, you could also quote a janitor's opinion, and it would be equally relevant. Naming him makes the comment worth examining.
ReplyDeleteIf he is not ashamed of his views and states them publicly, why can he and his views not be critiqued?
Ultra orthodoxy is actually a Reform movement. They made up a bunch of fake halacha, then demonised those who don't agree. They have no authority to do so. Then they are driven by mussar fascists like e. E. Dassler, who turned gateshead & ponovezh into looney establishments.
ReplyDeleteChazal always held that they are careful of Israel's parnassah, so they would not (and could not) make laws against people earning an income. Hatedi -reform reversed this position, and became the persecutors of israel.
Reminds me of the Islamist terrorists, on the one hand trying to destroy society, on the other crying about islamophobia.
He's referring to me, and he doesn't know my name.
ReplyDeleteThe point of the discussion is the message, which is why the name of the messenger isn't important.
Maseches Shabbos (119b):
ReplyDeleteא"ר יהודה, לא חרבה ירושלים אלא בשביל שביזו בה ת"ח, שנאמר ויהיו מלעיבים במלאכי האלקים ובוזים דבריו ומתעתעים בנביאיו עד עלות חמת ה' בעמו עד [ל]אין מרפא.
מאי עד לאין מרפא, אמר רב יהודה אמר, רב כל המבזה ת"ח אין לו רפואה למכתו
You answer your own point further down
ReplyDelete"The point of the discussion is the message, which is why the name of the messenger isn't important"
Who said i have issues with my current life?
ReplyDeleteAm i taking it out on the entire Torah world? I am pointing out that certain sectors are taking it out on others. To the point where many forms of work are falsely forbidden. The Talmud says work with perfumes, not leather tanning - thats to do with better quality of life.
Also, well done for being displeased, you should always scrutinize my radical comments and try to defend yeshivas.
ReplyDeleteSee haEmek Davar, and also Chatam sofer on this verse where he cites Rema/SA.
https://www.sefaria.org/Exodus.20.9?with=Chatam%20Sofer&lang=bi&aliyot=0
I SAID 6 days you shall work - thats the way sefaria translate.
Good point - melachos of shabbat are derived from other verses. Are you suggesting it is only a heter to do melachos, eg boiling a kettle, driving to yeshiva or weekday minyan?
Are you suggesting Netziv is giving the Torah a pejorative interpretation? Are you at the same time decrying mevazeh talmidei chachamim as you are mevazeh the Netziv. Reminds me or a certain rabbi freilich from dvar yerushalayim london concession, who decried immorality whilst dating one of his female students.
Your comparison to universities - yes they get govt and private donations. Do they discourage their students from getting professions, to destroy their livelihoods? Do they discriminate against people who want one form of profession or other? No. So your comparison is useless.
ReplyDeleteYou cite Rambam Hilchos
ReplyDeleteShemittah 13 – which says “G-d will be His portion and heritage forever and will provide
what is sufficient for him in this world like He provides for the priests and
the Levites.29 And thus David declared [Psalms 16:5]: "Go-d is the lot
of my portion; You are my cup, You support my lot."”
This at best gives a heter for the
special individual to don the ecclesiastical robe. It does not mean you need a
heter to not be Rav, or to work in the general economy. It does not mean one is
an apikorus for learning an academic discipline.
Also, the Leviim did not own land or
real estate. Is that case with Yeshiva rabbis, who are given the equivalent of
what they would have made had they been doctors, lawyers, accountants, own
properties, then magically also properties
for each of their kids?
Mishnah (Avot 4:6) "If one learns [Torah] in order to
teach, he is given the means to learn and to teach; if one learns in order to
do, he is given the means to learn, to teach, to observe, and to do."
"Rabbi Tzaddok says, 'Do not make the teachings of the Torah into a crown with which to adorn (i.e., be proud of) yourself, nor like a
spade with which to dig (i.e., earn a living).' Hillel would say, 'One who
makes use of his crown passes away.' From here we see that whoever derives
benefits from his Torah knowledge removes himself from the world."
CEO styled salaries for Rosh yeshivas and chief rabbis, dayanim etc.
Whilst on the topic of the Rambam, it is notable that you omitted his halachic statement in Hilchot T’T
Talmud Torah 3:10
10: Anyone who decides to be engaged in Torah [study] and not to work, and will be
supported by Tzedaqa – this person desecrates God’s name (*Chillel et Hashem*), degrades the Torah, extinguishes the
light of our faith, brings evil upon himself and forfeits life in *Olam haBa*
(The world to come); since it is forbidden to derive benefit from the words of
Torah in this world. The Rabbis said (Avot 4:5):
Anyone who derives benefit from the words of Torah in this world, forfeits his
life in Olam haBa. They further commanded and said: (Avot 4:5)
Do not make them [the words of Torah] a crown to magnify yourself or an axe
with which to chop. They further commanded, saying: (Avot 1:10)
Love work and despise positions of power (*Rabbanut*). And: (Avot 2:2)
Any Torah which is not accompanied by work will eventually be nullified and will
lead to sin. Ultimately, such a person will steal from others.
There is also a distinction between how he closes each book,
which is an aggadic styled statement, whereas the bulk of his work is halachic.
If someone is a navi sheker, we don't follow them. The Torah states - what if you say how do I know which is a true navi vs a fake one? Then you test him, if his words do not follow, eg his predictions , we shall not be afraid of him.
ReplyDeleteI'm well aware of Rambam's words in Hilchos Talmud Torah (3:10). If you read them carefully, you will realize that he did not contradict himmself in Hilchos Shemittah.
ReplyDeleteHowever I have no obligation to educate you, so you'll have to figure it out on you own.
Very well stated!!
ReplyDeleteMaybe, but taking the reverse position to TT 3, 10, is the false concept that I'm arguing against.
ReplyDeleteIf you read Rambam carefully, you might realize that he sets very severe consequences for those who follow the extreme ultra orthodox way which opposes everything secular. Furthermore, he himself was employed as a professional doctor, and wrote scientific treatises on many subjects. Reb Ephraim Shach was someone who also held of this position.
ReplyDelete