http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2016/06/senior-breslav-rabbis-protest-sefer.html
http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2016/06/breslov-hashkofa-you-cant-be-saved.html
update: See my previous post
Rambam(Hilchos De'os 6:8): Therefore, a person should be careful not to embarrass a colleague - whether of great or lesser stature - in public, and not to call him a name which embarrasses him or to relate a matter that brings him shame in his presence.
When does the above apply? In regard to matters between one man and another. However, in regard to Heavenly matters if [a transgressor] does not repent [after being admonished] in private, he may be put to shame in public and his sin may be publicized. He may be subjected to abuse, scorn, and curses until he repents, as was the practice of all the prophets of Israel.
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People (especially their families and students) criticize me - how can you say they have sinned? How can you insult gedolim (which a rosh yeshiva claimed is a sin worse than adultery)? My critics claim that what I say is impossible because they are great tzadikim! They are the gedolei hador. They have been responsible for decades of Torah development and countless talmidim? They are such nice people with exemplary midos.
How can you say that they are responsible for not only the severe distortion and corruption of the Torah and the rulings of Rav Moshe Feinstein and severe public degradation of an innocent man - but they have caused a man and woman to commit adultery! Perhaps even worse -that they have caused severe damage to emunas chochomim.
Unfortunately it is true and they have expressed no regret for their actions and have not done teshuva and apologized. Nor have they even said they have made a mistake. And apparently the adulterous relation still exists. [I am willing to publish a cogent defense of the Heter and the failure to denounce it and the failure to tell the adulterous couple to separate.]
To understand this reality one needs to not lose sight of an elementary truism - there is no man that does not sin (Koheles 7:20). However, not all men and not all sins are equal. The sins of an ordinary man are not that of a gadol nor are their consequences. The yetzer harah is very smart. An ordinary man can be readily seduced to sin by basic lusts such as money or women. For a person on a high spiritual level - the yetzer harah needs to be more creative. One of the sources for sinning unique to gedolim is in fact their high spiritual level. Starting with Adam, the most superior man of all times - sinned the first sin - in order to be like G-d.
Korach's sins were also in the spiritual dimension. He decided with his superior intellect and logic that the Torah of Moshe was wrong and that he knew better. Being on an elevated level he in fact had ruach hakodesh and with it he saw that Shmuel would be his descendant. That gave him additional support that his spiritual ideas were correct. However he was grossly mistaken and he sinned in his effort to elevate the spirituality of the Jewish people and save them from what he thought were the distortions and fraud of the Torah that Moshe presented to the people.
We have also the case of Zimri who openly had sexual relations with a Midianite princess - not chas v'shalom because of mere lust - but because he wanted to accomplish the same spiritual tikun that Moshe had done with his wife. In fact when he confronted Moshe with this idea - Moshe could not reject the idea because he had in fact accomplished that which Korach wanted to do.
Rav Tzadok(Takanas HaShavim #6): Dina was incarnated in Kosbi whose father was the source of evil of Midian who wanted to destroy the Jews so that they would be like all the other nations. But Kosbi didn’t listen to her father and wanted to convert if Zimri was interested. This is the meaning of Zimri’s claim, “Who permitted Tzipora to you?” Zimri grabbed Kosbi by her hair in the manner of the Amorites while she was still a non‑Jew because he was the incarnation of Shechem and he sensed that there are souls of non‑Jews that come into to Jews and non‑Jews who have Jewish souls. He thought that by having intercourse with Kosbi he would collect the holy sparks that were in her while she was still a non‑Jew.
Rav Tzadok(Likutei Amarim #16): Zimri went to Moshe with the defense, “And who permitted the daughter of Yisro to you?” That is when Moshe married Tzipora she had not yet converted since she was under the control of her father Yisro to the degree that the Mechilta says that Yisro insisted to Moshe that his first son should be for idolatry – conversion came later…
Rav Tzadok(Takanas HaShavim #15): Zimri meant by his defense to Moshe, “And who permitted the daughter of Yisro to you?” that the children he had with Kosbi would be considered Jews. Thus he was doing a sin for the sake of Heaven which is like a mitzva not for the sake of Heaven (Nazir 23b)…
Finally we need to mention Shabtsai Tzvi and Jesus who also sinned because of their greatness. Here are the words of Rav Tzadok.
Rav Tzadok (Machavos Charutz #1):...Therefore the Torah has to command us "Be Holy" You might mistakenly think that means as holy as G-d...[See Vayikra Rabba 24:9]. When a person has reached perfection in holiness until he is comparable to the angels through his free will - the Yetzer HaRah does not leave him alone ever and seduces him with the thought that he can be as holy as G-d literally (mamash). Because of this a person can fall from the greatest heights to the lowest depths c.v. This is in fact what happened to Jesus and Shabsai Tzvi - the name of the wicked should rot. Because of their excessive asceticism their imaginative faculty grew and they thought that they could compare themselves to G-d. This all came about because they saw themselves as holy people....
The Baal Shem Tov also noted the problem
Shivchei haBesht(#66) Rabbi Joel told me… that Shabbtai Zvi came to the Besht to ask for redemption. Rabbi Joel said in these words: “The tikkun is done through the connection of soul with soul, spirit with spirit and breath with breath” The Besht began to establish the connection moderately. He was afraid as Shabbtai Zvi was a terribly wicked man. Once the Besht was asleep and Shabbtai Zvi may his name be blotted out, came and attempted to tempt him again, G-d forbid. With a mighty thrust the Besht hurled him to the bottom of hell. The Besht peered down and saw that he landed on the same pallet with Yeshu. Rabbi Joel said that the Besht said that Shabbetai Tzevi had a spark of holiness in him but that Satan caught him in his snare, G‑d forbid. The Besht heard that his fall came through pride and anger. I was reluctant to write it down, but nevertheless I did so to show to what exent pride can be dangerous. [in Praise of Baal Shem page 86-87
In addition to being offensive and insulting, the post is also entirely wrong. All of the cases you cite have to do with people who were trying to work "outside the system" in an inappropriate way in order to bring about some sort of spiritual tikkun. That has nothing to do with the case at hand, which is more one of impaired judgment.
ReplyDeleteVery interesting, but did RSK act like Korach or merely make an error?
ReplyDeleteAnd can anyone elect to do an aveira lishma?
In addition to being offensive and insulting
ReplyDeleteYou do need to explain precisely what it is that you found to be offensive, and what you found to be insulting. Please explain why you are offended and insulted.
All of the cases you cite have to do with people who were trying to work "outside the system" in an inappropriate way in order to bring about some sort of spiritual tikkun.
In the case at hand, they also attempted to work outside of the system.
1) If the Beis Din that had jurisdiction was not fulfilling what they saw as real justice, then they found a way outside of the system by making a unhalachic "beis din" to issue "rulings". They decided to hold rallies, excommunicate etc. Their motivation may have indeed been a simple impaired judgment; but their actions were outside of the system.
2) The same applies to the annulment, once it has been clearly revealed that it was a mistake and unwarranted, they refused to retract. Why? The refusal to retract is outside of the system. The refusal to follow Rav Dovid Feinstein - like they said they would - is outside of the system. Their motivation may indeed only be an impaired judgment; but their actions are more than that. Their actions are outside of the system.
MEUVES ASHER LO YUCHAL LETAKEN!
ReplyDelete.... "people who were trying to work "outside the system" in an inappropriate way in order to bring about some sort of spiritual tikkun"....
Many bo'alei mekubolim and immitators claimed the same of "working outside the system", inappropriately - while bringing full fledged mamzerim beYisrael. Starting with the Prodfather, weber...milk... *man, maklev, shmerland, england, and all the other never never lands. They all are into elevating their own spirits and spark collection. Nitzutz echad yotze meniefiach shelohem vesoref es hakol. What was the great yetzer hora making another man and woman sin with eishes ish? Is this the tikkun for Adam? What happened to "ein Adam chote veloi lo"?
Impaired judgement? Impaired my foot! Why don't they tell the paramours to depart, huh?
This parsha is still open and begging for Tshuvos - tartei mashma. Hmmm... "Gedoilim", something stinks here and smells all the way to Denmark.
“How can you say that they are responsible for not only the severe distortion and corruption of the Torah and the rulings of Rav Moshe Feinstein and severe public degradation of an innocent man - but they have caused a man and woman to commit adultery! Perhaps even worse -that they have caused severe damage to emunas chochomim. Unfortunately it is true and they have expressed no regret for their actions and have not done teshuva and apologized. Nor have they even said they have made a mist.”
ReplyDeleteI keep thinking there are conditions, facts, explanations that we don’t know. Rabbi Dovid Feinstein is involved and is quiet. Maybe Rabbi Feinstein and others are waiting for the appeal of Mendel Epstein et al, hoping the appeal court will lower the draconian sentences. Why is the Kamenisky-Greenblatt heter related to Mendel Epstein? Through Susan:
(internet 2012):
“Supporters of Tamar Epstein, whose ex-husband, Aharon Friedman, refuses to give her a religious divorce, have been pressuring Friedman's boss, U.S. Rep. Dave Camp, R-Michigan, to fire Friedman. They have protested in front of Camp's office, signed a petition at change.org, started a website (freetamar.org) and in February, bombarded Camp's official congressional Facebook page. But Susan Aranoff, director of Agunah International, which supports Jewish women seeking divorces, said social media has little effect because many husbands still are resistant after all the bullets have been fired."
The NYS Court denied my motion 2016-415. Susan won. I heard a joke. Who wins in life? He who dies with the most money at the time of his death.
For there is not one good man on earth who does what is best and doesn’t err. (Ecclesiastes 7:20)
Shabbath 118b
“R. Jose also said: May my lot be of those who collect charity, but not of those who distribute charity.[ It is very difficult to perform the latter with absolute impartiality, as personal predilections are apt to intervene.] R. Jose also said: May my lot be of those who are suspected whilst innocent. R. Papa said: I was suspected [of something] of which I was free [Berachot 8b].
Mendel Epstein et al, Kamenitsky, Greenblatt are like those that distribute charity that devote their lives to doing good, keeping Torah and to helping people. These righteous do err by making errors of judgment, similar to Korah and Zimri etc.
"How can you insult gedolim (which a rosh yeshiva claimed is a sin worse than adultery)?" As it so happens, the gemara says that.
ReplyDelete"That has nothing to do with the case at hand, which is more one of impaired judgment." It does not matter what you call it. You missed the point of DT which is that Kaminetsky/Greenblatt are unapologetic which in such a matter is important to set the record straight to prevent such incidents from reoccurring.When you allow a married woman to remarry w/o a GET, you must PUBLICLY denounce the mistake to clear your name and sanctify Hashems torah if you are considered an Odom Godol.
ReplyDeletequick question... Where there people who defended Yochanan Kohain Gadol after he went bad???
ReplyDeletethe story of Dovid is not brought as halacha - look at Moed Koton 17a
ReplyDeleteAre you against Judaica plaza in Lakewood selling his picture amongst Large-sized expensive framed pictures, as is the case?
ReplyDeleteNo. Rather strange question.
ReplyDeleteI was coming off סוטה דף י עמוד ב׳. Look at תוספות ד״ה נוח. Its irrelevant if we pasken like it or not. From the very fact that such a concept might exist shows how חמור the עבירה of מלבין פני חבירו is.
ReplyDeleteOne more point about Zimri. The Midrash tells us how it came about. After many men from Zimri's Shevet had had relations with Midyonites, Hashem had sent a plague. They came crying to their leader, Zimri, to save them. That's when Zimri made a decision to take Kozvi and .....
ReplyDeleteWith Rav Tzadok's explanation it all makes sense. Zimri felt that he could save his Shevet from the plague if collected the Jewish sparks that the Bnei SHimon had unfortunately sent into the Midyanites. His motivation was to save the people whom he led. To fix their wrongdoings. But alas, he made things worse.
There is much comparison to the current state of events. And maybe there can be another comparison. Moshe was crying and unsure what to do. It took a Pinchos to do the hard work; for which he was called all sorts of names. Are many Talmidei Chachomim are unsure what to do, and would like a complete consensus to do it....?
Harav Moshe Shternbuch the Posek haDor inside of our system, asked all of us everywhere to protest as according to our system. Moshe Rabenu was not exempt working inside of our system. Torah achas yihye lachem is for an odom godol just as well, and when they sin, the chilull haShem is even greater because the layperson will learn from them e.g. "Im bearozim noflo shalheves ma yomru ezovei kir". Lo sakiru ponim bamishpat is referenced exactly to our case at hand. To err is human, not so in our case at hand. Our case at hand has a history of malicious attack from Adam starting from the beatings to force a get meusse, maligning, harassing all over the place through RA RA ORA Sharya and have never asked for an apology even as now. Veorav lo vekom olov, when on Tisha Ba'av anshei bliyaal ubnei avlo have been lurking in the driveway waiting for the signal of "Kiss your father goodbye", in order to jump the unsuspecting father, beating him over his head right in from his daughter. Ele manhigecho Yisroel? Huh? Paying ESNAN for the underworld to beat up another Yid? Gemeinheit! Yad Mendele shaygetz baemtza, may he rot away in jail and never see the daylight ever again. Let those fake agunos that received fake Gittin sue the begunias out of his estate. Have we yet mentioned Al toshes yadcha im rosho.
ReplyDeleteWhen this saga didn't fly, the other Fiasco kicked in. All of a sudden A.F. wasn't mentally sound having M3 Krispedin behind his ear in the fourth quadrant and fifth dimension, witnessed by a Yahr Eidus asher lo haya velo nivra. They duped RNG, at least the way he so claims and accepted everything for face value with no questions asked. They went on brazenly to bitul Kiddushin as if mekach taus while the person of interest is right in front of our eyes "ukreisah bein shineho", live and well and kicking. Even that was out of order, should it have been true, that only calls for a Get. Is that how an odom godol meddles in iskei Gittin veKidushin? Lo motzo yodov veraglov behalacha, that goes for all three of them as well as the other shopped around hand picked dayanim now playing low key. So you have a whole set of phooey Gedoilem erring the same thing. Come on, whom are you kidding, whom are you trying to fool? This was none other than an orchestrated megaleh ponim batorah shelo kehalacha wholesale, bezadon ubishat nefesh with the ruach of ANI EMLOCH. You say I can't, let me show you that I indeed CAN! When the whole world caught up with this FIASCO, went up in arms, HAYITOCHEN? So they were maskim to have R' Dovid as referee and do as he says, as if he didn't yet know she is an Eishes ish. Of course R' Dovid said it is worthless!
Do you for one moment think that the world stops here? Of course not! She needs to depart immediately, with no questions asked, and rest assured R' Dovid told them so. As of yet, no departure, no directing so, no nothing. Is this what you call ERRED? Did anyone apologize for the beatings, hoitzoas shem ra, Lo soinu ish es amiso, mevaze a Beis Din, ... and the list goes on and on and on. This is neither inside nor outside of the system. It is a toivel vesheretz beyodo. Please don't insult our intelligence. Every day that goes on while they don't do tshuva and ask mechila berabim, this FIASCO is betokef and a Chilull haShem. What a Shande!
Yes it is tragic when a yid gets embarrassed - but in this case that is the psak of the Rambam and the Moed Koton. No it is not irrelevant what the halacha is You don''t consider halacha a valid concern?!
ReplyDelete1: "You do need to explain precisely what it is that you found to be offensive, and what you found to be insulting. Please explain why you are offended and insulted."
ReplyDeleteComparing one of the great marbitzei Torah and one of the great poskim of our generation to Shabetai Tzvi and Jesus is offensive and insulting. If you don't see that, there is not much I can do to help you.
2: You misunderstand what "outside the system" means in this context. It does not mean outside the beis din system. It means trying to use spiritual forces to effect tikkunim in ways not sanctioned by halacha.
who would you compare a major rabbi who actively is involved in producing an adulterous relationship and does nothing to stop it after it has been pointed out that he is wrong? To the Chofetz Chaim? To Moses Mendelsson? To R Emmanuel Rackman? To Rav Shlomo Goren?
ReplyDeleteOf those four choices, it would probably be closest to the fourth. But even that is accurate concerning only their respective roles in the particular cases of this saga and the mamzer case. That mamzer case was hardly R' Goren's only pesak that could come under major criticism.
ReplyDeleteWell, I don't think I missed the point. The point is to compare R' Kamenetzsky to Korach, Jesus, and Shabtai Tzvi.
ReplyDeleteLook at תוספות ד״ה נוח
ReplyDeleteHe was from the ktanei amono. Bemokom sheyesh chilul haShem ein cholkin kovod larav.
Tzelofchod for one.
ReplyDeleteWhere did this concept that gedolim dont make mistakes come from? lot of examples in jewish history of great people who did err, or sinned
ReplyDelete“People (especially their families and students) criticize me - how can you say they have sinned? How can you insult gedolim (which a rosh yeshiva claimed is a sin worse than adultery)? My critics claim that what I say is impossible because they are great tzadikim! They are the gedolei hador. They have been responsible for decades of Torah development and countless talmidim? They are such nice people with exemplary midos.”
ReplyDeleteI praise and completely support Rabbi Eidensohn. Those “People (especially their families and students)” that criticize him are liars. I share Rabbi Eidensohn’s umbrage at the lies. I dare anyone of them to respond to: “ [I am willing to publish a cogent defense of the Heter and the failure to denounce it and the failure to tell the adulterous couple to separate.]” Yes, this relates to Susan. I’m incensed at her lies, that I didn’t divorce her on her initiative 2/17/1993 etc. Yes, I bless her and wish her well, though she won 55% of my pension and 100% of the house. I thank God that I escaped IRS tax audits for 2011, 2012, and 2013 with $0.00 due and I get my full social security with Yemima as my wife. Oh, if anyone, Susan could write the cogent defense of the Heter Rabbi Eidensohn is looking for--- how she managed to convince so many. Good luck.
Of course halacha is a valid concern, that's why I never said you should commit adultery. You've avoided the point again though. Being מבזה תלמדי חכמים is so serious there is a צד that your should rather commit adultery, why do it? (correcting what you consider to be someone else's עבירה doesn't count)
ReplyDeleteyour consideration doesn't override the halacha - which is to embarrass even a talmid chachom
ReplyDeleteThe point was to show that R Kaminetsky's blatant disregard for halacha have the same roots as the others. There is a feeling of entitlement and that the rules are for others because they are after all gedolim.
ReplyDeleteIt is my opinion that in pursuing this matter, you have time and time again gone beyond the mitzva of tochacha and have descended to the level of mevazeh talmidei chachamim. Comparing prominent gedolim to Jesus and Shabtai Tzvi is reprehensible. Period. Full stop.
ReplyDeleteplease tell me what the Rambam says is the halacha?
ReplyDeleteComparing one of the great marbitzei Torah and one of the great poskim of our generation to Shabetai Tzvi and ... is offensive and insulting.
ReplyDeleteThey were not being equated. However, the lessons derived from one are quite relevant to the other. If you feel otherwise, you should state a clear and logical opposition without resorting to "insulted and offended". These two feelings are not relevant to this discussion.
2: You misunderstand what "outside the system" means in this context. It does not mean outside the beis din system. It means trying to use spiritual forces to effect tikkunim in ways not sanctioned by halacha.
Actually, you either misunderstood my comment, or chose to pretend that you did.
Outside the system means outside the the halacha. Meaning, that although they are currently well aware that there is no halachic justification for their psak, they are standing with it due to the "greater good" that they see coming out of it.
Outside the system means that you realize that you are going against the rules that Hashem set forth, yet you feel that you are doing some greater good...
RSK was engaging in this earlier. RNG was much later.
How do you define error? One can assert that Korach also erred.
ReplyDeleteWhat do you mean about aveira lishma?
Again you miss the point. The halacha is you embarrass if faced with the alternative of committing adultery. You aren't being faced with that alternative!!
ReplyDeleteSo if you were around when "Rabbi Goren and the Langer children" was happening what would you have done??
ReplyDeleteI feel like the ball was dropped big time on this story. Big hullabaloo then quiet. Why are there no big time protests going on? The adulterous couple are still living together!!! What happened to the peak of the Posek Hador that they should separate? Olam kiminhago noheg.
ReplyDeleteIt actually is quite offensive to anyone who respects Halacha and the Torah to have his picture amongst the Gedolei Torah.
ReplyDeleteIt is no matter how many years he was Marbitz Torah. He facilitated Aishes Ish, future Mamzeiros - and has at the very least acquiesced to its continuance.
If you deny the above, you are either naive, partial, or ignorant of the facts.
bottom line is this was a game of chicken. All the major rabbis blinked when the only choice was to censure R Kaminetsky or declare the issure resolved. There was a collective sigh of relieve at the top when they could pretend that he acquiesced to the psak of Rav Dovid.
ReplyDeleteThe rationale was simply that it would destroy emunas chachomim. That is clearly what happened with Rav Feldman with his absurd statement that insulting a talmid chachom is worse than adultery and that he would never have written his letter if he knew it would be seen by the public on the Internet. It is basically a game of smoke and mirrors. It indicates that our leaders are of small faith when they think the system can only be preserved through lies and deception.
same thing I did with the Kaminetskys. That is also what I would have done if I were blogging in the time of Korach or Shatzai Tzvi etc etc
ReplyDeleteWhat you you have done?
I think I missed that in the Rambam - please tell me where he says such a thing
ReplyDeleteWhy do you keep quoting Rambams for הלכה למעשה? Last I checked, you should be quoting שו״ע. And I'm not sure why you don't get what I'm saying. Its אסור to be מבזה תלמדי חכמים. Just because it's allowed when faced with the alternative of committing adultery, that's not applicable here. You yourself aren't faced with that alternative. You are just blogging your opinions. If you would stop you wouldn't be committing any sins
ReplyDeletewhat is the difference between Horiot and Shogegot?
ReplyDeleteIt is allowed when he doesn't stop the sin he is doing - why is that so hard for you to grasp. You seem to have not bothered reading all the psakim of the rabbonim that the heter is wrong - it is not my opinion that the heter is wrong but it is the consensus of rabbonim who have looked into the matter.
ReplyDeleteRav Kaminetsky's alleged announcment that he would accept Rav Dovid Feinstein's ruling - without stating that the heter is wrong - is outrageous and needs to be protested. On what authority are you proclaiming that If I ignored this corruption that I wouldn't be commiting any sin? Who told you that there is no mitzva of tochacha for the mistakes of gedolim?!
The Torah tells us how it came about. Asher niklu lochem al dvar peor veal dvar kozbi...it was Bilam's *plot* to ensnare them through the Yetzer hora with Arayos. The Torah therefore tells us Tzror et haMidyanim and distance ourselves from them. No such thing as Tikkun for a Heter. This is what all these charlatans, Boalei mekubolim, paedophiles and child molestors try to mesis umadiach the unsuspecting. When teaching the halachos, they should mention all these charlatans so as NOT to be trapped into their bobbe maisses under no and any circumstances, so that it should raise a red flag and report it right away . The young and the unsuspecting have been duped too many times through these menuvolim. Nitzoitzis, tikkunim, Gilgulim, veZikukin de nur should be publicized misof haolam ad sofo that it is Assur no matter the length of the beard or the stature of Itztele derabanan they wear. No hafakaot Kidushin, or bitul kidushin, Gitei meusse can do the trick. Veal tomar lifnei haMalach ki Shgogo hi, pen yiktzof H' elokecha. Fess up, tell them to depart so that we can move on. Till that happens, we need to protest and protest more so that all know the Truth, the whole Truth, and nothing but the Truth. Didn't R' Dovid Pasken so???
ReplyDelete"On what authority are you proclaiming that If I ignored this corruption that I wouldn't be commiting any sin" Rav Aron Feldman's authority. It's very nice that you keep quoting Rav Moshe Shternbuch, but is it on his authority that you are bringing in Jesus and Shabsai Tzvi? Are you screaming bloody murder that the Rema married someone on Shabbos?! No matter how much you might think you know better than Rav Shmuel, that might not be the case. This isn't the first time that you have major poskim disagreeing in halacha on cases of איסורי סקילה. Let the gedolim work out their differences, and if they can't it still won't be a first.
ReplyDelete"You seem to have not bothered reading all the psakim of the rabbonim that the heter is wrong" the rabbonim never said to be מבזה תלמדי חכמים!!!!!!!
ReplyDeletewe are going in circles. The heter was certified to be wrong by a wide range of rabbis. The Kaminetskies and R Greenblatt refused to acknowledge that. There was and is a danger of this fraud setting a precedent for anulling marriages by a report of a psychologist basing himself entirely on the wife's complaint. We are talking about adultery.
ReplyDeleteIt is rather clear that such needs to be protested - and if the talmidei chachomim refuse to budge - then to increase pressure. Nothing controversial about that - except to you. The halacha is clear that when a talmid chachom does something wrong and refuses to retract then he is embarrassed.
Please cite anyone who disagrees with the Rambam - besides you.
The Rambam also states that whoever has the abliity to protest and doesnt' is responsible for that sin (De'os 6:7).
Your mechanincal repetition "it is prohibited to insult a talmid chachom" doesn't make it any more relevant.
You might have noticed my post about Meir Pogrow - I didn't notice that the distinguished rabbis who condemned him avoided publicly embarrassing him - and he is a very solid Torah scholar.
Rav Aharon's position was dismissed by Rav Malinowitz who is recognized as being vastly superior to Rav Feldman in psak halacha.
ReplyDeleteRav Feldman basically takes the position of a mashgiach - that is not relevant for halacha l'maaseh.
Cut out the nonsense - there is no machlokes haposkim as to whether the heter is valid
According to your conclusion - let the gedolim (if there are any who disagree with my position) take care of their own problem - what are you mixing in for?
Meir Pogrow isn't in the same universe as Rav Shmuel in terms of Gadol Btorah.
ReplyDeleteWe don't pasken off Rambams, so stop quoting him as a halachic defense. When you show me a ש״ך, ט״ז, מגן אברהם or any of the נואשי כלים we can talk. The burden of proof is on you to matir.
Despite the thousands of talmidim and the many supporters of Rav Kaminetsky that are accomplished talmidei chachom - there has been absolutely no intelligent scholarly defense of his position or actions - nor has there been an intelligent critique of my position. All we keep hearing his "it is prohibited to insult a talmid chachom" Why not just say Rav Kaminetsky is like G-d and just as we can't critizie G-d we can't critize him. It is the same embarrassing lack of intelligent responsel
ReplyDeleteI am not publishing anymore of this nonsense. If you have something intelligent to say then say it support with clear sources. As I have repeatedly said - I will publish any intelligent discussion of the issues from his supporters. All they say is he is right because he is a gadol and you are wrong because you are disagreeing with him and that is disrespectful which is a terrible sin,
Rav Shmuel knew more Torah than I possess now when he was 8 years old - so why can't he wipe the floor with me in a straightforward halachic discussion?
so now you are finally getting down to the argument. Your are not concerned about whether a talmid chachom is degraded. You are saying that a gadol can't be criticized. There is no such halacha. Assuming you acknowledge that Rav Moshe Feinstein was a gaold and one considerably greater than Rav Shmuel Kaminetsky - he states clearly that he is not infallible. He doesn't say that if he was promoting an adulterous relationship that he could not be criticized harshly.
ReplyDeleteNope the burden is on you to show that the Rambam is not vialbe as halacha.
Since when don't we pasken like a Rambam - if there is no discussion in Shulchan Aruch that disagrees?
Your standard is nonsense. If you find an acharon that disagrees with the Rambam - please produce it.
“ [I am willing to publish a cogent defense of the Heter and the failure to denounce it and the failure to tell the adulterous couple to separate.]”
ReplyDeleteRabbi Eidensohn, you and your brother, so honest, so forthright, you bring Torah sources, all surely for Heaven’s name. The Greenblatt-Kamenitsky heter clearly has wide and deep supporters. Not one of defenders, supporters aid and abettors responds to give a cogent defense.
“Moses sent for Dathan and Abiram, sons of Eliab; but they said, “We will not come! Is it not enough that you brought us from a land flowing with milk and honey to have us die in the wilderness, that you would also lord it over us? Even if you had brought us to a land flowing with milk and honey, and given us possession of fields and vineyards, should you gouge out those men’s eyes? We will not come!” Moses was much aggrieved and he said to the Lord, “Pay no regard to their oblation. I have not taken the ass of any one of them, nor have I wronged any one of them.’ ” (Numbers 16:12-15).
Mo’ed Katan 16a
Raba said: Whence do we know the regulation that we send a messenger of the Court? From what is written: And Moses sent to call Dathan and Abiram the sons of Eliab.
The חפץ חיים הלכות שמירת הלשון , כלל ד׳ אות ד׳ in the star says מפורש that in this type of case its 100% אסור what you're doing.
ReplyDeleteAccording to your conclusion - let the gedolim (if there are any who disagree with my position) take care of their own problem - what are you mixing in for?
ReplyDeleteBut Dov may feel that R. Shmuel and his family did ask him to mix in. Oh, well, if that is the case, then what's good for the goose is good for the gander. We all have a responsibility to mix in as well.
“ [I am willing to publish a cogent defense of the Heter and the failure to denounce it and the failure to tell the adulterous couple to separate.]”
ReplyDelete(internet 2012):
“Supporters of Tamar Epstein, whose ex-husband, Aharon Friedman, refuses to give her a religious divorce, have been pressuring Friedman's boss, U.S. Rep. Dave Camp, R-Michigan, to fire Friedman. They have protested in front of Camp's office, signed a petition at change.org, started a website (freetamar.org) and in February, bombarded Camp's official congressional Facebook page. But Susan Aranoff, director of Agunah International, which supports Jewish women seeking divorces, said social media has little effect because many husbands still are resistant after all the bullets have been fired."
My cogent, compelling and convincing defense of the heter is that there is no other way for Tamar Epstein to become free from her husband Aaron Friedman. Aaron Friedman was, simply, totally resolved not to divorce his wife, whatever she tried. It can’t be that the Torah ways would permit her to be wed-locked (Susan’s term) until death. The heter, done exactly as was done, was the only way to free Tamar. God bless the rabbis and supporters of the heter. The heter, as was done, will put the fear of the devil in men who, similar to Aaron Friedman, totally resolve not to divorce their wives, whatever they try. The heter is important today, now that the prenup is falling into disrepute.
Is that the best you can do?
ReplyDeleteIt is at best relevant to prohibit your criticism of me for criticizing a gadol who has orchestrated a phony heter for adultery and has not acknowledged that the heter is junk nor has he done teshuva for his other activities of publicly degrading an innocent man - against the halacha.
As the Chazon Ish clearly states one can say negative things about a public figure who people mistakenly think is doing the right thing. Rav Elchanon Wasserman has the same view. We are talking about to'les and tochacha. Not saying something means that there is a clear danger that Torah will be distorted and women will commit adultery. The Chofetz Chaim did not prohibit what I am doing. Not protesting is the problem - not protesting.
Instead of taking the bean counters approach - try looking at the overall picture before you "pasken". Again I will repeat - where are the refutation of what I am doing from the many genuine talmidei chachomim who view themselves as students or supporters of Rabbi Kaminetsy? Mumbling the absurdity that the supreme value in Yiddishkeit is to preserve the public's respect of gedolim - no matter what egregious sins they do- is simply proof that there is no justification for Rav Shmuel's failure to acknowledge he was wrong.
Korach came after the facts attempting to justify a wrong of being boel an Aramit.
ReplyDeleteWhen upon trying to procure a Get Meusse failed, they made an invalid bitul kidushin that was based on pre known *false* facts deliberately orchestrated mitchila vead sof, to *FREE TAMAR* at any cost, by hook or by crook, by all key parties involved. They were done namely, by the Psychiatrist that should have never affirmed an opinion without hearing directly from the person of interest, by the RSK's of a newly discovered alleged mental disorder in spite of having a din of sovro vekibla, of which only calls for a Get and not bitul kidushin of mekach taus, a mishna mefureshes. It was known by Tamar that she had concocted all this up, especially if she had never mentioned it in prior by BD nor in her diary of two column assessments and decision making. It was conveniently overlooked by RNG not to authenticate any and all information taken into consideration before
1) Releasing an Eishes Ish
2) Mekadesh an Eishes ish
as well as in cahoots with at least two other so called dayanim situated in different States while at it. Didn't RNG already pasken in prior, that only if it's *BEDIOME* to R'Moshe Feinstein's case and *HAS BEEN THERE FROM BEFORE KIDUSHIN*, he therefore knew and was aware that this case has taken up a second new life after failing to procure a Get Meusse. Why didn't this call for a red flag? Where was the "Meshuga of Toit" in the first round, Huh? How can a meshugener give consent to any Get for that matter? He should have known that this is mezuyef mitocho umigabo, how come NO questions asked? Is this what you call over 6 decades of experience?
After having R' Dovid paskened to RSK's special request that it is worthless and all WORLD rabonim call for the paramours to depart immediately, you have yet heard absolutely nothing of RSK ordering so. Does Torah Achat not apply?
This is not an Error nor what you call
a Mistake. It is a clear megaleh ponim baTorah shelo kehalacha *LISHMA*, having people engage in Gilui Arayos. For every second they live in sin the Aveira is on their shoulders, all done for LAH - LISHMA little LOLA the Pricess. Not so Korach veadoso, he at least came in conniving as heich , meassrin es hateven ve'es ha melach.
If you come to think of it, this all happened just to spite AF to disenfranchise him of his daughter. A nekama lishma. Has nothing to do with Torah. What a Chilull HaShem!
What's keeping them back NOW from recall of the alleged ERROR?
Even RHS said that smicha of SOD H' LIREOV, unless "SHETA'A BEHEDYA".
Ha'IM ele manhigecho Yisroel??? Then you wonder from whence these cahdoshim labkorim pigei haPOGROW-m's and MAK-ah ba-LEV's etc. etc. etc. are coming from. Of course all in the name of TORAH, and never mind, all LISHMAH. Im beArozim noflo Shalheves, uma yomro Ezoivei Kir? So much for Bilbulim, Gedoilim, Gilgulim, Tikunim and chotfei neshomos mishachar tal yaldusom. You cannot turn the other way and claim lo raiti velo shamati, not kedarka not shelo kedarka on TASHBAR, with kivyachol MESSIRA, no RAGLAYIM no BA'AL DOVOR, hein bA'Aretz, vehein bechutz lA'ARETZ. ELSE, you be left KERACH MIKA'AN VEKORACH MISHAM.
Lo yikrechu Korcho, or asher korcho baderech, velo sihye keKorach veAdoso.
That is why you need to fix this Chilull haShem before this MEDURA SHEL GEHINOM spreads C'V' AL KOL HAGOLAH KULA!
Shabtai Tzvi, Cheeses and Korach had tremendous *gadlus*, but THAT IN ITSELF made them fall all the harder! .....and on the flip side of the coin, your assertions are without any proof, no offense, it's not so much you, it's your stance. .
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately, yes.
ReplyDeleteIf they try to bring Kovod Shomayim, I may entertainment that thought (which may also depend on their spiritual level, are they gedolim in the 1st degree or the 3rd degree :-), but when they try to bring chas v'sholom the opposite (due, in this case to negous), then your notion is definitely ruled out...
ReplyDeleteDaas Torah: "Why not just say Rav Kaminetsky is like G-d" - The fanatical disciples of the feminist rabbis (such as Rav Kaminetsky) have elevated these rabbis into infallible supreme beings who never have to answer for any of their actions. These fanatical disciples have replaced Hashem and His Torah with corrupt rabbinic politicians. One can cite valid Torah sources all day that demonstrate the severe halachic violations of the feminist rabbis, but their fanatical devotees will continue to demonstrate full faith in them.
ReplyDeleteIt is well known that various feminist rabbis, including Rav Kaminetsky, have for a number of years been providing unqualified support to moredes women who moser their husbands in archaos, rob their husbands of their assets, and severely alienate their children from the children's fathers.
The main obstacle these moredes women have faced is obtaining a kosher Get from their exploited and oppressed husbands. In the Friedman-Epstein case, fanatical ORA hooligans failed to force a Get from the husband, so the ultimate feminist solution was devised by the feminist rabbis - fraudulent marriage "annulments".
Although various Chareidi rabbis were forced to condemn the obviously outrageous Epstein "annulment", in fact the Chareidi rabbis have dealt with the feminist rabbis far too leniently up to now.
[I am willing to publish a cogent defense of the Heter and the failure to denounce it and the failure to tell the adulterous couple to separate.]
ReplyDeleteThe people behind the Heter see themselves as a vigilante committee, organized without legal authority to keep order and to punish wicked husbands (in their view) that refuse a wife’s demand for a divorce. Mendel Epstein et al and radical feminists would call the supposed wicked husband, Rasha. Mendel Epstein et al will be trying to convince the appeal court in his papers due 7/15/2016 that his work is a social good and, at most, he punished wicked husbands that well deserved their punishments. Mendel Epstein et al needs wide rabbinical support that his divorces he arranged are kosher.
Supporters of the Heter call Aaron Friedman Rasha. What’s new with Heter is a trick to create an annulment anytime they wish. The licensed psychologist or psychiatrist who testified against Aaron Friedman without meeting him is perfect for their purposes. That’s exactly what they want. They want the annulment to be easy to get. The men just better divorce the wife as demands because if they make trouble, they get an annulment and remarry! Supporters of the Heter need rabbinical support that the annulment is kosher. Rabbi Feinstein’s silence helps their cause.
Today’s Wall Street Journal http://www.wsj.com/articles/pelosi-lives-matter-1466723407:
ReplyDelete“Democrats will ride to November on a protest politics that is antithetical to self-government, but they do America no good by bringing the methods of the bullying radical left to America’s House.”
I say that the Greenblatt-Kamenisky Heter and Mendel Epstein et al (and Susan) 30 years bullying radical left-feminism to Judaism in America will do Judaism no good.
Today’s Wall Street Journal http://www.wsj.com/articles/pelosi-lives-matter-1466723407:
ReplyDelete“Democrats will ride to November on a protest politics that is antithetical to self-government, but they do America no good by bringing the methods of the bullying radical left to America’s House.”
I say that the Greenblatt-Kamenisky Heter and Mendel Epstein et al (and Susan) 30 years bullying radical left-feminism to Judaism in America will do Judaism no good.
Today’s Wall Street Journal http://www.wsj.com/articles/pe...
“Democrats will ride to November on a protest politics that is antithetical to self-government, but they do America no good by bringing the methods of the bullying radical left to America’s House.”
I say that the Greenblatt-Kamenisky Heter and Mendel Epstein et al (and Susan) 30 years bullying radical left-feminism to Judaism in America will do Judaism no good.
“People (especially their families and students) criticize me - how can you say they have sinned?”
ReplyDeleteHere’s a proof from this week’s parsha, that it is permitted to publically criticize those that “rebel against the Lord” even in the face of danger from the enraged rebels, and even if some the rebels are gedolim and Torah teachers:
“And Joshua son of Nun and Caleb son of Jephunneh, of those who had scouted the land, rent their clothes and exhorted the whole Israelite community: “The land that we traversed and scouted is an exceedingly good land. If the Lord is pleased with us, He will bring us into that land, a land that flows with milk and honey, and give it to us; only you must not rebel against the Lord. Have no fear then of the people of the country, for they are our prey: their protection has departed from them, but the Lord is with us. Have no fear of them!” As the whole community threatened to pelt them with stones, the Presence of the Lord appeared in the Tent of Meeting to all the Israelites. people of the country, for they are our prey: their protection has departed from them, but the Lord is with us. Have no fear of them!” As the whole community threatened to pelt them with stones, the Presence of the Lord appeared in the Tent of Meeting to all the Israelites.” (Numbers 14:6-10).
There are 2 issues here - using the procedure of annulling a kidushin , which the vast majority of poskim say is very problematic . The bigger issue is the corruption in the process of the paskening the heter which would not stand up in any court of law – secular or religious
ReplyDeleteI can't justify anything but I can understand how even great people can come the wrong conclusions and bad judgment.
The starting point is how people view AF. People automatically identify with a woman who is being denied a get and especially if the family come to you for help and you are indebted to them for their financial contribution to Torah. This natural identification, the Gemorrah in Ketovot calls – sho –chad , bribery , becoming one with the other , so it is impossible to see fault in the other – see the Alter of Slobodkah on this. I have heard Rabonim say that in many of these get cases , you may be legally in your rights , but the right and clever way to act is to cut your losses and put all your energies in building a new future instead of trying to get what is rightfully yours .It saps so much energy and hold you both back instead of allowing you to live and move forward. Wise people have often forgone money and their rights rather than expend energy to battle people for what is rightfully theirs. They believe that if they put that energy into the future more prosperity will result than fighting over the past.. So when a person acts against his own interests , even if the ' law' is with him and makes another person's life miserable by not giving a get , it is quite easy to understand why people view AF as a rasha. And when you view someone as a rasha , you act in ways that justify your view My personal view is that both parties got bad advice . The next complication is when your family gets involved and you need to back them up and justify their position. And then when your colleagues back you and try to protect your reputation , you have no chance of seeing the truth and admitting wrong. The problem was getting involved in the first place - you only can get it wrong
Allan, your comments really smack of feminist propaganda. You're attempting to deflect attention from the real issues in AF's divorce conflict which are: AF's blatant loss of parenting rights with his child, the denial of his halachic due process rights in Bais Din, and the vicious campaign of harassment, slander, and persecution he suffered at the hands of the ORA thugs and their Kaminetsky henchmen.
ReplyDeleteThere is absolutely no justification for those who view view AF as a rasha, other than their twisted feminist value system. The people that view AF as a rasha are the true rashayim and perverters of Torah law and ethics.
If you want to give up your relationship with your own children in order to appease ORA thugs, that is your right, but you really have no business telling men in divorce situations that they must do so.
Neither of the above. I would compare him precisely to one of the gedolei hador of his times ....and his name is. ....Zimri ben Solu....
ReplyDeletecut your losses is great advice from rabonim that i have heard from in Israel. AF could have been remarried , started his own family and then had a normal home to welcome his child and have a better chance having a relationship with your child. I personally know men who have done that and found happiness. And of course he could have let his ex to get on with her life. The question is why is there so little sympathy for AF - I think I have answered that , but of course those who are fighting the feminist agenda would rather see him put up a fight and be miserable. His life could have been rather different now
ReplyDeletebottom line you are saying that he should give up any hope of a meaningful relationship with his daughter.
ReplyDelete“Kaminetsky-Greenblatt Heter and the sins of Gedolim - have their roots in Korach and his associates.”
ReplyDeleteI agree. I know nothing of Aaron Freidman, other than this blog. I get the feeling that for whatever reason, Aaron Freidman does not want to remarry and does not want to divorce his wife. He may be the confirmed bachelor type that really didn’t want to marry in the first place. Who knows? God bless him. Our focus has to be on the rabbis who acquiesce in his wife living with another man!!! This is a rebellion against God which we must denounce, much as Joshua and Caleb denounced those (including gedolim and Torah teachers) that followed the wicked spies.
A shoshvin must recluse himself. They wanted to take away his daughter. First they wanted to force a Get meusse, now they are into Arayos up to theor eyeballs and got caught while at it. Their ignorance in Gittin veKidushin cries to the heavens. If anyone is a Rasha, it is one being megaleh ponim baTorah shelo kehalacha, have we yet mentioned chilull haShem? Af has been dragged through the wringer, A Tzadik min hane'elovim ve'einom olvim and a true Mideshoskei tfei! Give him back his daughter, and then we talk.
ReplyDeleteI said ' AF could have been remarried , started his own family and then had a normal home to welcome his child and have a better chance having a relationship with his child' - his chances imho are much better for a meaningful relationship with his daughter if he puts an end to the conflict , starts his own family . His chances of remarrying are hindered by having a name as someone who with held a get - no matter how justified , the bad name has stuck >Maybe it is a Gerald has said - he is a confirmed bachelor.
ReplyDeleteI agree that AF is the victim. But the focus on the heter shifts the focus from the injustice done to him. From what I can gather it is only RDE who has taken up his cause, why is there so little sympathy for him from the community as a whole. I suggested an answer which basically says - don't be in the right , be clever or as i heard it once - be happy and get married, start a new family and from this situation work on improving the relationship with your first child
ReplyDeleteNot only you agree, but the 80,000 bloggers that peaked this blog. The Heter FIASCO takes nothing away, it is kvodo bimkomo munach as R' Dovid paskened, it is worthless. From whence do you take the sympathy count? The true and valid Gedoilei haDor and Poskei haDor vesiyatam are all keish echod ubelev echad that it is beKesher Bogdim this Chilul Hashem and Megaleh ponim baTorah, and that ain't no small potatoes! They owe an Apology to AF, and a BIG one for that. Klall Yisrael will NEVER forgive them for the travesty they have inflicted, VEAMOS HASIPIM YANIU. They hurled a heavy blow to Emuinas Chachomim misof haolam ad sofo that can never be recovered, and even as of now, vehaSHERETZ BEYODOM BIZROA NETUYO, just because they think they can. Have you suggested this clever idea to the perpetrators, those Chachomim leheira, Huh??? And FYI, your own child is a G-d given gift along with divine rights to have and to hold shepping nachas ad bli d'ay ad sof kol hadoros and you don't have to pay undue DUES for those that keep them hostage, fershteist? And last but not least, a big Yasher Koach to R's Eidensohn brothers to fight for the TRUTH, lochem milchemes HASHEM and for what's right! Cheilchem leOrayso. Veoni tfilah, VEHOELOKIM YEVAKESH ET HANIRDAF. AMEN
ReplyDelete“Kaminetsky-Greenblatt Heter and the sins of Gedolim - have their roots in Korach and his associates”
ReplyDeleteI see one issue for us as outsiders: Today, 139 Days Rav Dovid Feinstein's Beis Din has considered Heter. Outsiders, cannot properly give advice to Aaron Freidman, his wife, etc.
My questions:
Do Rav Dovid Feinstein's Beis Din and main rabbis involved make no objection and no protest to Aaron Freidman’s wife living with another man? Do Rav Dovid Feinstein's Beis Din and main rabbis involved acquiesce to the annulment of Aaron Friedman’s Tamar Epstein marriage? Is this case similar to gamara approved annulments?
To me, this annulment is not similar to gamara approved annulments. I object and I protest Aaron Freidman’s wife living with another man. I support and praise daattorah.
I do advice Jews outside Israel to make Aliya. I quote Psalms 102:16-17:
“The nations will fear the name of the Lord, all the kings of the earth, Your glory. For the Lord has built Zion; He has appeared in all His glory.”
The Malbim says here:
“will fear…that is to say, You [God] have mercy on Zion and then “The nations will fear the name of the Lord.” The parallel sayings “The nations will fear the name of the Lord… For the Lord has built Zion.” And “all the kings of the earth, Your glory.” Shows publicizing from a distance. The few nations that did not see [or fear] the glory of God, will see [or fear] because of publicizing His Name, heard from a distance by means of His building Zion with signs and miracles. The kings of the world, who are more enlightened [or educated] and know about matters of glory [or honor], they will see [or fear] God’s glory, that will be revealed after the rebuilding [of Zion] and they will fear His Great Name.”
The Malbim says that first God will rebuild Zion and then, later, the kings of the world, will see that God rebuilt Zion and then they will fear the name of the Lord. The Malbim doesn’t talk here of the Messiah. We’re in the stage of God rebuilding Zion. Now is a good time for Jews in America to make Aliya. Some Jews in America wait for the later stage that the kings of the world fear the name of God to make Aliya. These Jews are waiting for the Massiah. The Massiah in not in the Tanakh, but God rebuilding Zion is.
80 000 hits , not bloggers , here we are preaching to the converted
ReplyDeletebut the 80,000 bloggers
ReplyDeleteOver 117,000!
R' Dovid has spoken LOUD n' CLEAR! All those letters posted here from POSKEI uGEDOILEI hador *vesiyatam* of each Posek are not bloggers. Count them in as the silent majority. Vechi milsa zutrese hi, Huh? And you have the Tzitz to be bodek betzitzis of the bloggers hits, halonu o letzorenu ata? What about chavra chavrei is lei. The whole world was/is up in arms over this and going strong. Veal tehi Rov hedyot be'einecho, Rov tartei mashma. This will never go away! They must declare befumbi to depart, ask mechila of AF and the Ribono shel olam, vekol Yisroel kulo.
ReplyDeleteEhud, have you been in such a situation? I've been with those who have. There are 2 dinim (at least) being discussed here: #1, who is right, be it al pi din or al pi yashrus and #2, some issue totally irrelevant - that which is best for Aharon Friedman. As far as #1 is concerned, I think we are all on the same page that AF was utterly wronge, except for some trollers. Just some people pipe in and mix #2 with #1, when they are TWO SEPARATE DINIM! therefore messing up the shiur! (Oyyyyyyyy...sigh....and of course if they continue to confuse the 2 issues they should sharply be reprimanded (thumbs up)). Does that mean that our shiur is the most important nekudah? Of course, not. But people should be clear that he is not wrong for not giving a get and if we suggest to him to give a get that it is davka for HIS good and NOT because he has to. It took a while for me to be convinced that there was nothing to be gained by not giving a get because she was totally undealable and not capable of negotiating (the great Rav Menashe Klein zt"l, of all rabbonim, saw this a long time ago, of only had I listened to him then....).
ReplyDeleteWhat we CAN do is help get AF a heter me'ah rabbonim and get him on with his life! We have people chanting no get or no to terrorism, do we have people helping them from terrorism, helping them remarry with a heter me'ah?
We say no to terrorism, bit do we fight terrorism by raising funds for their legal battle? MI laShem ailayy!
Where did Rav Menashe Klein zt'l say what you attribute to him?
ReplyDeleteWhat AF has to gain is a lot. Firstly, a Heter M R is not something any woman is willing to marry, thereby limiting the pool of those available. His daughter is liable to have mamzerim siblings, and a mother a Z... R'L'. As long as these so called gedoilim do not retract and admit their wrongs telling them to depart, AF is still being a nirdaf, ORA SHARYA olecho Shimshon!
ReplyDelete[I am willing to publish a cogent defense of the Heter and the failure to denounce it and the failure to tell the adulterous couple to separate.]
ReplyDelete“If two men get into a fight with each other, and the wife of one comes up to save her husband from his antagonist and puts out her hand and seizes him by his genitals, you shall cut off her hand; show no pity” (Deuteronomy 25:11-12).
Baba Kama 28a
“Come and hear: you shall cut off her hand; show no pity” (Deuteronomy 25:12) means only a monetary fine. Does not this ruling apply even in a case where there was no other possibility for her to save [her husband]? [Thus proving that even where irreparable loss is pending, as in this case, it is not permitted to take the law into one's own hands.] No, it applies only where she was able to save [him] by some other means.[ In which case she acted ultra vires, i.e. beyond the permission granted by law.] Would indeed no fine be imposed upon her in a case where there was no other possibility for her to save [her husband]? But if so, why state in the subsequent clause: “If two men get into a fight with each other, and the wife of one comes up to save her husband from his antagonist and puts out her hand and seizes him by his genitals” (Ibid. 11)? [This] excludes an officer of the Court of Justice [from any liability for degradation caused by him while carrying out the orders of the Court]? Could not the distinction be made by continuing the very case [Dealing with a woman coming to rescue her husband.] [in the following manner]: Provided that there were some other means at her disposal to save [him], whereas if she was unable to save [him] by any other means there would be exemption? This very same thing was indeed meant to be conveyed [in the subsequent clause:] Provided that there were some other means at her disposal to save [him], for were she unable to save [him] by any other means, the resort to force in her case should be considered as if exercised by an officer of the Court [in the discharge of his duties] and there would be exemption.”
This is my cogent, compelling, convincing of the Heter. Aaron Freidman and his wife were fighting. Rabbi Kamenistky came to save Tamar Epstein from her husband who had the foulest intentions for his wife. Rabbi Kamesnistky saw absolutely no alternative way to free Tamar Epstein, other than the Heter. Yes, he did a gross act similar to: “and the wife of one comes up to save her husband from his antagonist and puts out her hand and seizes him by his genitals.” The Heter with the expert testimony against Aaron Freidman without meeting Aaron Freidman was a gross act. The gamara says that where the wife had absolutely no alternative way to save her husband, she did right to save her husband in that way. The gamara says, not only she did right, it’s as if she acted as an officer of the Court. This applies only in fights with the parties having the foulest intentions to hurt the other.
Sanhedrin 107a:
ReplyDeleteדרש רבא מאי דכתיב ובצלעי שמחו ונאספו נאספו עלי נכים [ולא ידעתי] קרעו ולא דמו אמר דוד לפני הקב"ה רבש"ע גלוי וידוע לפניך שאם היו קורעין בשרי לא היה דמי שותת ולא עוד אלא בשעה שהם עוסקין בארבע מיתות ב"ד פוסקין ממשנתן ואומרים לי דוד הבא על אשת איש מיתתו במה אמרתי להם הבא על אשת איש מיתתו בחנק ויש לו חלק לעוה"ב אבל המלבין פני חבירו ברבים אין לו חלק לעולם הבא
very interesting but not relevant. Last time I checked we generally don't pasken halacha straight from agadata especially when there are a number of other relevant sources. As a talmid chachom I am sure you are aware that the Rambam and other poskim have ignored this gemora and that of Bava Metzia 59a
ReplyDeleteBetter it is for man to cohabit with a doubtful married woman1 rather than that he should publicly shame his neighbour. Whence do we know this? — From what Raba expounded, viz., What is meant by the verse, But in mine adversity they rejoiced and gathered themselves together... they did tear me, and ceased not?2 David exclaimed before the Holy One, blessed be He, ‘Sovereign of the Universe! Thou knowest full well that had they torn my flesh, my blood would not have poured forth to the earth.3 Moreover, when they are engaged in studying "Leprosies" and "Tents"4 they jeer at me, saying, "David! what is the death penalty of him who seduces a married woman?" I reply to them, "He is executed by strangulation, yet has he a portion in the world to come. But he who publicly puts his neighbour to shame has no portion in the world to come."’5
However given your knowledge in Shas and Poskim perhaps you can show us the sources which says that a talmid chachom is not to be embarrassed when he perverts the halacha and that it is better for a couple to commit adultery then to reveal that a gadol has made an huge error in understanding the halacha.
Bottom line. Given the many distinguished talmidim of Rav Kaminetsky - I don't understand their shyness about coming to the defense of their rebbe and bringing up halachic sources which show what an ignoramus I am. I am sure Rav Kaminetsky could do it himself but it is not worth his time or dignity to accept a challenge from a lowly blogger. Simply repeating over and over again that one does not publicly criticize a gadol - is an incorrect and shameful defense.
Shabbetai Zvi had mental problems, was probably bipolar and some more as well. It was Nathan of Gaza that told him he was Moshiach.
ReplyDeleteThe later evil person, J. Frank was an out and out rasha. Zvi was obviously a rasha but he was totally meshuga, and had not real free choice.
the problem with attacking RSK is that he is the Gadol hador in America (Am -erva - ke)
ReplyDeletethe Hareidi litvish world no longer has a gadol hador, or a recognized single leader accepted by all. by default, Rsk is the Zaken and posek of the generation.