Saturday, January 15, 2022

The abusive use of psychology to destroy one's opponent:"All is fair in love and war"

In the Tamar Epstein heter - the critical issues is not so much the halacha but the psychological "reports" that are used as evidence to "prove" that Aharon Friedman is not capable of being a minimum husband and thus it is a mekach ta'us because Tamar would never have married a person whom the majority of women would not view as even a minimal husband.

She and her chief advocate R Shalom Kaminetsky presented as objective reality the report of a psychologist that Tamar hired to besmirch Aharon and thus justify for the poskim a ruling of mekach ta'us. He conveniently didn't meet with Aharon but relied on the "objective" reports that Tamar provided him.

Ploni has presented some really solid arguments against this approach - but it doesn't seem to have convinced various elements. So in the name of a scientific understanding of psychology that will grab even the most convinced opponent I would like to turn the tables and use the same technique in evaluating the mental health of Aharon Friedman's opponents including Tamar, Rav Shmuel Kaminetsky, Rav Shalom Kaminetsky and Rav Nota Greenblatt.

Is there any preference which one to start with? Perhaps Tamar - who while quite intelligent perhaps was possibly suffering [educated guess but not known to be true] from a post partum depression aggravated by the shrill voice of her mother and the Goldfein's telling her to drop Aharon because she could do so much better? 

Perhaps we should start with the two gedolim who are both above 90 [which we all know what that means] and who blame each other for the heter [both having ignored normative halacha in this case because of their respect for the other]? Both of whom acknowledged they know nothing about psychological diagnoses and were totally dependent on what R Shalom could get out of his paid "gun" which he thoughtfully put a severe negative spin on when he explained what the psychologist said.

Or perhaps we should start with Reb Shalom whom at this point is widely hated for making his father the Rav Goren of our generation. A person who has gotten himself and his father into a series of misadventures recently - including the Meisels Seminary debacle? A person who seems to have a Messiah complex and selflessly ran around the world with the solution to Tamar's problem (an annulment with a cooked psychological report that not only was full of lies but is so unethical the psychologist who collaborated with him would probably lose his license when his name is revealed)? A man so dedicated to freeing Tamar that he wasn't in the slightest deterred as posek after posek laughed in his face when he begged them to sign on the heter. A man who had no interest in asking what the halacha was but rather in finding someone who would agree with what he felt was the solution.

So where shall we start?

30 comments:

  1. Over done issue!

    Move on to other current events. ISSIS in California, ban on higher secular studies for females in Israel, Seminary for girls in these terror times, etc...

    ReplyDelete
  2. The entire episode could not have been presented better or in a more fair way than you have presented it.
    I think that the next step is for you to present the entire episode from day one in a similar way.
    Yeyashair Kochacho

    ReplyDelete
  3. Regarding TE's illness, one of the letters on tamar's side mentioned her therapist, though we assume that was a therapist to 'convince' her that AF has OCD and some unspecified sort of paranoia that she never knew about, and that she left him as soon as she found out (in contradiction to her diary entries, her bet din discussions, and her testimony in court.) For that, she needed a 'mumche' too.

    ReplyDelete
  4. Diagnosis is hereby confirmed. i just heard it from you ... and after all, I am also an anonymous expert EXACTLY like RSK's.

    We now have TWO experts who agree.

    We'll call up the SAME Rabbonim who granted the הפקעת קידושין and surely, in the name of even-handedness, they'll be fair and agree with us.

    Then it's pretty simple....

    There is a מצוה לשמוע דברי חכמים ... we need to get a few people who will help kidnap Tamar's baby - G-d forbid - since we experts have solid knowledge of Tamar's emotional state, and although we never met here ... so what...

    ReplyDelete
  5. Please write a guest post on these topics

    ReplyDelete
  6. Stanley, my friend, these current issues, Isis, Syria, chinuch in EY, San Bernadino, ad nauseum, are transient (like the Crusades and the French Revolution) however, the Torah is Eternal. We must follow the Great Men of our generation in protecting our great Inheritance from corruption. This is why HaRav Shternbuch, shlita, in his letter protesting the heter allowing Tamar Epstein to remarry without a Get stated, “I am not coming forth except to encourage he who protests the heter and sanctifies G-d's name. His reward is exceedingly great.” You have confused the ikur for the tufel.

    ReplyDelete
  7. What ban on higher secular studies? Please enlighten ...

    ReplyDelete
  8. RDE/DT, Why have you deleted the post "Tamar Epstein's Heter: Baltimore Beis Din and major Israeli rabbis reject heter" ?

    ReplyDelete
  9. Some important people from Bbnei Brak demanded it. They said they want more signature before they want it published.

    ReplyDelete
  10. "Or perhaps we should start with Reb Shalom whom at this point is widely
    hated for making his father the Rav Goren of our generation"



    Rav Goren was and still is highly regarded in the RZ and MO world and even many parts of the Sephardi world.



    RSK senior is part of the Moetzet of Agudas Yisroel, and his mishpocho has recently intermarried with Rav Hershel shachter's mishpocho.


    The Hareidi/ponovezh hatred for Rav Goren was unparalleled, whereas for RSK it is rather muted - nobody has physically attacked or threatened him.




    I wish to raise a question, becasue i read something on another blog which reminded me of something you said a while back.


    Your statement was atributed to Rav Shterbuch - as saying in order to give a heter or kulah , you need to have a reputation for being machmir.


    The other statement , if true, represents the other side of the coin - it claims that sometimes someone will be given quite approval for a heter, with the express understanding that they will be attacked , so as not to make the heter a general trend.


    Are you aware of this mechanism?

    ReplyDelete
  11. Please show sources that Goren is still highly regarded in RZ and Sephardi world?

    ReplyDelete
  12. 1 Zalman Nehemiah Goldberg https://seforimblog.com/2020/10/rabbi-zalman-nehemiah-goldberg-eulogizes-rabbi-shlomo-goren/

    2 melamed https://en.yhb.org.il/the-legacy-of-rabbi-goren-%D7%96%D7%A6%D7%9C-2/

    Rav Obadiah yosef.
    https://www.yeshiva.co/ask/8660.

    My mentor, Rav Ariel, see his response to Rav aviner.
    https://lifeinisrael.blogspot.com/2008/02/rav-aviner-and-rav-ariel-on-har-habayit.html?m=1.

    Basically all rz support him.

    A lot of influential MO, eg Rav pruzansky, Rav rakeffet, and many others. Rav Moshe tendler ztl also.
    You are out of touch with the RZ world.

    ReplyDelete
  13. Wow the sources you cite are not saying what you claim!

    ReplyDelete
  14. you have gone through this before
    http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2015/10/tamar-epstein-rav-kaminetskyrav-goren.html

    ReplyDelete
  15. where is the hesped that Rav Yosef allegedly gave for Goren?

    ReplyDelete
  16. Wow, what are they saying?

    ReplyDelete
  17. I don't have it. But he also said they were friends and equals, long after the rabbanut days

    ReplyDelete
  18. They say he was a very great Torah Scholar. They are not discussing his contribution to baseball.

    ReplyDelete
  19. You asked me again

    ReplyDelete
  20. I asked for a specific item
    of course you have defended Goren many times

    ReplyDelete
  21. Torah thought daf hayomi Mo’ed Katan 9a The Yom Kippur that King Solomon suspended! Fascinating. Can he do that? Yes.

    “For R. Tahlifa taught: “So Solomon and all Israel with him ---a great assemblage, [coming] from the Lebo-hamath to the Wadi of Egypt (i.e. coming from one end of the country to the other)---observed the Feast (i.e., of Booths cf. Lev. 23:34) at that time before the Lord our God, seven days and again seven days, fourteen days in all. On the eighth day (i.e., of the second seven day feast; cf. 2 Chron. 7:8-10) he let the people go. They bade the king good-bye went unto their tents לאהליהם, joyful and glad of heart over all the goodness that the Lord had shown to His servant David and His people Israel.” (1 Kings 8:65-66). [It is written], To their tents, that is, they went [home] and found their wives in [a state] of purity [On the meaning of tent as denoting wife, cf. supra 7b. As regards the state of purity referred to here, v. Lev. XVIII, 19 and XX, 18; XV, 19-24] [to receive their husbands]; joyful, that is, that they had enjoyed the radiance of the Shechinah [the elation of feeling the Divine Presence near]; and glad of heart, that is, each man's wife conceived and bore him a male child. ”

    Beautiful. My theory. King Solomon can rule however he wants. He’s King Solomon. He completed building the Holy Temple on the 8th day of the 7th month and declared 14 days feasting and released the people on the 23rd day of the seventh month. Wow! What about: “Indeed כי, any person who does not practice self-denial throughout that day shall be cut off from his fin ונכרתה מעמיה.” (Leviticus 23:29)? That year King Solomon suspended Yom Kippur. Bravo.

    Allow my letter today to the NYS Commission on Judicial Conduct:
    “3.Bravo that the NYS Commission on Judicial Conduct removed an elected judge, Judge Ash. This is precisely what the NYS Constitution empowers the NYS Commission on Judicial Conduct to do. I claim that my complaint against Judge Prus is similar. I spoke with Anita at the NYS Commission on Judicial Conduct on Thursday. She told me that I should be getting a letter from the the NYS Commission on Judicial Conduct. I asked that I get all correspondence by email (garanoff@netvision.net.il) as snail-mail to Israel is extremely slow and unreliable. UPS mail is excellent and well-worth the cost.
    4. have a long history of complaints at the NYS Commission on Judicial Conduct, against the late Judge Gerald Garson and against Judge Michael Ambrosio. The NYS Commission on Judicial Conduct will remove an elected NYS judge only for clear and convincing evidence of malfeasance or gross negligence. I ask here that the NYS Commission on Judicial Conduct look again at my complaints against Judge Garson and Judge Ambrosio. Why? For clear and convincing evidence of malfeasance or gross negligence of Judge Prus.
    5.The NYS Constitution right to divorce, plainly, is only for NYS married husbands or wives to seek divorce from their other not divorcees or unmarried. The critical issue is the standing of the party seeking the matrimonial action. Obviously Judge Prus accepted that Susan was married to me according to NYS law in 2013. Actually, according to NYS law, I'm still married to Susan. Susan had no standing in 2012-2013 to seek divorce before Judge Prus because she was a divorcee. Susan said she's a divorcee to the Jerusalem Post at the marriage our daughter Yaffa. Susan signed that she wants to live with me in Jerusalem in 1989.”

    ReplyDelete
  22. Rav kanievsky letter to rav kamenetsky
    https://vinnews.com/2022/01/14/rav-chaim-kanievski-sends-personal-condolence-letter-to-rav-shmuel-kamenetsky/

    ReplyDelete
  23. No, Rav Kamenetsky has not been rekjected in Hareidi land to the degree that they did in the 1970s:








    "Rav Chaim wrote in the letter: “A letter of condolence to the Gaon, my
    friend, Maran Rabbi Shmuel Kamenetzky [shlita] over the loss of his pure partner,
    the righteous Rebbetzin."

    ReplyDelete
  24. Rav Shmuel retracted his support for the heter

    ReplyDelete
  25. Rav Shmuel retracted his support for the heter!

    ReplyDelete
  26. show me documentation

    ReplyDelete
  27. https://daattorah.blogspot.com/2016/03/kaminetsky-greenblatt-heter-rav-dovid.html

    ReplyDelete
  28. Thanks for this post, DT. Yes I agree. May I speculate on mental health of Susan in Aranoff v Aranoff? My case at the NYS Commission of Judicial Conduct rests on that the fake/phony 2013 Prus NYS civil divorce was so divorced from reality: clear and convincing evidence of malfeasance and gross negligence, the standard of criminality. I presume this is how NYS Court of Appeals suspended Judge Ash . I note: APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL Roger V. Archibald, Brooklyn, for Hon. Sylvia G. Ash.
    Robert H. Tembeckjian, New York City, for New York State Commission on Judicial Conduct.

    In 2013 20 years passed after I divorced Susan. What was Susan’s mental state? Probably bad to make her do a whole phony/fake Prus NYS civil divorce. What was Susan’s mental state when she refused to join me in Israel in 1991 as she promised? Probably bad.

    “A passerby עבר who gets embroiled מתעבר in someone else’s quarrel על ריב לא לו Is like one who seizes a dog by its ears מחזיק באזני כלב.” (Proverbs 26:17)

    The metaphor is good. Seizing a sleeping dog’s ears may seem safe. No. The dog will fight and howl. The court granting civil divorce to Susan over my objections may seem safe. No. I will fight and howl.

    Women have no right to divorce like they have no right to abortion. Divorce, abortion, and voting only with due process and regulation.

    Maybe SCOTUS will stop the extreme radical progressive left of Biden/Harris. Maybe Israel’s legal fraternity will allow Netanyahu back seeing there is no evidence of any Netanyahu wrongdoing.

    ReplyDelete
  29. Torah thought this week’s parsha יתרו “And Jethro rejoiced for all the kindness that the Lord had shown Israel when He delivered them from the Egyptians.” (Exodus 18:9)
    שמות פרשת יתרו פרק יח פסוק ט
    וַיִּחַדְּ יִתְרוֹ עַל כָּל הַטּוֹבָה אֲשֶׁר עָשָׂה יְקֹוָק לְיִשְׂרָאֵל אֲשֶׁר הִצִּילוֹ מִיַּד מִצְרָיִם:
    רש"י שמות פרשת יתרו פרק יח פסוק ט
    ויחד יתרו - וישמח יתרו, זהו פשוטו ומדרשו נעשה בשרו חדודין חדודין מיצר על איבוד מצרים, היינו דאמרי אינשי גיורא עד עשרה דרי לא תבזי ארמאה באפיה:
    על כל הטובה - טובת המן והבאר והתורה. ועל כולן אשר הצילו מיד מצרים עד עכשיו לא היה עבד יכול לברוח ממצרים, שהיתה הארץ מסוגרת, ואלו יצאו ששים רבוא:

    Sanhedrin 94a
    “And Jethro rejoiced [wa-yihad] ויחד. Rab and Samuel [dispute its meaning]. Rab said: He caused a sharp knife to pass over his flesh [i.e., he circumcised himself, ויחד thus being derived from had חד, sharp]; Samuel said: His flesh crept [with horror at the destruction of the Egyptians] [lit., his flesh became full of sharp edges, Prickles, deriving it likewise from חד, sharp, the goosiness of the flesh caused by fear or horror]. Rab [Yalk.: R. Papa] observed: Thus people say, Before a proselyte, even unto the tenth generation, insult not an Aramean [general term for a non-Jew. Jethro, though according to tradition a proselyte, was nevertheless horror-stricken at the fate of the Egyptians].”

    My theory. No to “All is fair in love and war” (means no rules). God has rules. Thank you God today for יציאת מצרים and Manna and Well of Miriam etc. On God’s punishing Egyptians who sought to kill us: “I will deliver them into the hands of those who seek to kill them, into the hands of King Nebuchadrezzar of Babylon and into the hands of his subjects. But afterwards she shall be inhabited again as in former days of old, declares the Lord.” (Jeremiah 46:26 Haftorah for parsha בא).

    I apply this to those who seek to kill us today. God will punish them but afterwards they will be inhabited again as in former days of old, declares the Lord.

    My theory on SCOTUS. Small matter ruling against Trump’s application for a stay (21A272). SCOTUS may yet announce a conference date for 21-932. Trump writes there: The question presented to the Court is clean, clear, and serious; the Petition should be granted. My clerk at SCOTUS tells me she has no control on announcing conference dates. I’m waiting for a conference date on 21-6561.

    ReplyDelete
  30. Torah thought this week’s parsha משפטים “If he came single, he shall leave single אם בגפו יבא בגפו יצא; if he had a wife, his wife shall leave with him. If his master gave him a wife אם אדניו יתן לו אשה, and she has borne him children וילדו לו בנים או בנות; the wife and her children האשה וילדיה shall belong to the master תהיה לאדניה, and he shall leave alone והוא יצא בגפו. But if the slave declares ואם אמר יאמר העבד: I love my master, and my wife, and children; I do not wish to go free לא אצא חפשי,” (Exodus 21:3-5).

    My theory. Everyone knows well the rules. She must put on a show of conversion to enjoy the full rights and duties of a Jewish wife (Hertz Chumash p. 840) “and discard her captive’s garb. She shall spend a month’s time in your house lamenting her father and mother a full month; after that you may come to her and possess her, and she shall be your wife.” (Deuteronomy 21:13).
    שמות פרשת משפטים פרק כא פסוק ג - ו
    (ג) אִם בְּגַפּוֹ יָבֹא בְּגַפּוֹ יֵצֵא אִם בַּעַל אִשָּׁה הוּא וְיָצְאָה אִשְׁתּוֹ עִמּוֹ:
    (ד) אִם אֲדֹנָיו יִתֶּן לוֹ אִשָּׁה וְיָלְדָה לוֹ בָנִים אוֹ בָנוֹת הָאִשָּׁה וִילָדֶיהָ תִּהְיֶה לַאדֹנֶיהָ וְהוּא יֵצֵא בְגַפּוֹ:
    (ה) וְאִם אָמֹר יֹאמַר הָעֶבֶד אָהַבְתִּי אֶת אֲדֹנִי אֶת אִשְׁתִּי וְאֶת בָּנָי לֹא אֵצֵא חָפְשִׁי:
    רש"י שמות פרשת משפטים פרק כא פסוק ג
    בגפו יצא - מגיד שאם לא היה נשוי מתחלה, אין רבו מוסר לו שפחה כנעניתי להוליד ממנה עבדים:
    אם בעל אשה הוא - ישראלית:
    ויצאה אשתו עמו - וכי מי הכניסה שתצא, אלא מגיד הכתוב, שהקונה עבד עברי חייב במזונות אשתול ובניו:
    רש"י שמות פרשת משפטים פרק כא פסוק ד
    אם אדניו יתן לו אשה - מכאן שהרשות ביד רבו למסור לו שפחה כנענית להוליד ממנה עבדים. או אינו אלא בישראלית,נ תלמוד לומר האשה וילדיה תהיה לאדוניה, הא אינו מדבר אלא בכנענית, שהרי העבריה אף היא יוצאה בשש, ואפילו לפני שש אם הביאה סימנין יוצאה, שנאמר (דברים טו יב) אחיך העברי או העבריה, מלמד, שאף העבריה יוצאה בשש:

    https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/320969 Rabbi Fischer says: “I did meet with her and with her beau, not from employment fear but because it was the right thing to do. She had a lovely personality, was very respectful and courteous. So was the boyfriend. And she also was very honest: she just does not believe in G-d, has no desire to convert to any religion, has no intention to rear future children in any religion, will let them decide. It was clear she was not ready for proper conversion to Judaism.”

    The Talmud says the master is allowed to use violence/force to evict the slave who says I do not wish to go free. Many use this Talmud as precedent for beating a recalcitrant husband. Better would be if the non-Jewish slave girl simply announces she wants to become a Jew, much like the captured slave girl in war time. Follow, KA, Garnel, JoeOrlow, Ploni ?

    ReplyDelete

ANONYMOUS COMMENTS WILL NOT BE POSTED!
please use either your real name or a pseudonym.