Thursday, September 3, 2015

"For her I weep" - mourning Shira Banki : A postscript


Reb Daniel,

I am including this background note regarding my Jerusalem Post article about the murder of Shira Banki at the Gay Pride Parade. Please feel free to share it.

When Shira Banki was murdered by Yishai Schlissel I perceived an ambivalent response from the frum community here in ארץ ישראל and online. I was disturbed by an apparent lack of outrage, empathy, sadness or despair. While the frum community was not to blame for her murder - there was no incitement -  I believe we were at fault for our uncertain reaction. After numerous orthodox publications declined my oped, I decided to publish in the Jerusalem Post to express my sorrow and to encourage mourning her unjustified murder. After publication, a רבי I admire admonished me for publishing criticism of the frum community in a secular newspaper and I accept his rebuke. My intention was to inspire members of our broader community and not to disparage us on a public stage.

As a postscript to my article, when I went to be מנחם אבל her family, Shira's father was grateful for my consolation but adamant that his family wanted more than just my tears. In that context I could not share with him how I oppose the parade and at the same time mourn his daughter's horrific fate. To me, it is clear that one can be opposed to the parade and still horrified and saddened by her murder. I believe mourning Shira's death and visiting her family are natural responses to the tragedy and wonder why few in our community felt the same. As I heard afterward in the name of Rav Moshe Shapiro, "when one is killed שלא כדין it is רציחה and the דין of נחום אבלים applies." Hers was a remarkable murder under remarkable circumstances that should not have been met with silence.

To be clear, how to relate publicly to the LGBT community is a complex topic and I am in no position to endorse an opinion on the matter. Still, when an unjustified murder occurs publicly in the name of הלכה, I do believe that responding with compassion is appropriate, respectable and ultimately, a קדוש השם.


כתיבה וחתימה טובה,
Mendel

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For her I weep

By MENDEL HOROWITZ

The author is a rabbi and family therapist in Jerusalem, where he maintains a private practice working with adults and children.
08/10/2015 

There was no announcement about young Shira’s funeral in my neighborhood, no acknowledgment of her talents gone lost.

If a sixteen-year-old Jewish girl was murdered under any other circumstances than Shira Banki was in Jerusalem last week, our reaction as a community would have been different. That her ideological killing was met by ambivalence and not simply sorrow, so soon after Tisha Be’av, reflects how unfocused we have become. Shira’s unspeakable homicide should be met with tears and not with commentary. Her death should be mourned and not disregarded or explained.

There was no announcement about young Shira’s funeral in my neighborhood, no acknowledgment of her talents gone lost. At best I sensed disinterest. At worst I heard rationale. For some, the context of young Shira’s murder became cause for ignoring it. Others seized the opportunity to assign her community blame. Missing was our lamentation. Absent was our despair. There should be no uncertainty about young Shira’s assassination, no ambiguity about her Jewish blood spilled. “All her friends have betrayed her,” said Isaiah. Disregarding young Shira’s execution is akin to condoning her death.

As Jews we are accustomed to crying. The tragedies of history familiarize us all to pain. But there is more than oppression in our hardship, more than persecution in our fate. Survival has demanded our caution. Vigilance has contributed to our alarm. Exile, it seems, has looted our affections, robbed us of our sensibility and goodwill.

Alongside our grief lies confusion. Alongside our anguish looms mistrust. Not reacting to Shira’s murder indicates cowardice, not daring. Not recoiling from her death reveals weakness, not strength.

Satan must be laughing. In our zeal to uphold morals we have neglected ethics. In our defense of principles we have abandoned ideals. When a murdered Jew evokes anything but sadness we have strayed. When compassionate ones are apathetic we have blundered.

There is a time for debate and a time for weeping. A time for protest and a time for distress. Pretending Shira’s murder did not happen will not bring decency to Jerusalem. Dishonoring Shira’s slaughter with interpretation should not make anyone feel proud.

The scandal of Shira’s death is how predictably it exposed our vulnerability, how intolerably righteous was the indignation it, in some, aroused. Instead of human kindness, an unnatural detachment prevailed that was defensive and offensive both. Anticipating bigotry, some placed their self-justifying agenda first by insisting the community was not liable for a madman.

Others terribly suggested – with words or intentional silence – the anomalous evil was not worth bemoaning. While none proposed its permissibility, few people I know were outraged. Few unambiguously shed tears. Condolences were cursory and scarce.

The circumstances of Shira’s life need not be affirmed to justify bewailing her death. Her attitudes and behavior can be questioned. Her motives can be even denounced. Grieving, however, should be unfettered by opinion, unbound by the dispassion of thought.

Tears can fall with no reason. Sobbing can happen with no remark. The event behind her homicide may be regrettable but being numb to Shira’s slaying is something worse. A sister lay bloodied in our city. A daughter fell butchered in His name.

Tolerance is the call of our times and its demand is complicated to heed or to deny.

The divine image seems more varied than we knew.

Apologies may be gratuitous for what was said before her murder but introspection is needed for what came to mind after Shira died. To imagine Shira’s death was warranted is shameless. To ignore young Shira’s death is no less a sentiment of conceit. “Detestable are the proud of heart,” said Solomon. Exile is a time of reflection, humility, doubt. In our hurry to be right we may have wronged. In our rush to not condone we have condemned.

Like orphans without fathers we know how it feels to be frightened. Like widows without husbands we know how it feels to be alone. To be forsaken is to be endowed no security. To be rejected is to be afforded no hope. Banishment is cruel. With abandonment comes unrest and uncertainty. With confusion comes fear and disgust. Like countless victims before her Shira is a casualty of exile, of the disaster that arises from instability and hate. But not everything is controversial, not everything unclear. Shira deserves regard because she did not deserve her fortune. Shira deserves our notice, if not for how she lived then for how she died. As on Tisha Be’av our trust is in our yielding. As on Tisha Be’av our prayer is in our cry.

66 comments :

  1. it is clear that one can be opposed to the parade and still horrified and saddened by her murder

    A davar pashut.

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  2. Does anyone remember what Rav Elyashev zt"l opined when Yishai Schlissel attacked the homosexual parade in 2005?

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  3. "how to relate publicly to the LGBT community is a complex topic"


    It is not very complex at all.

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  4. We don't need to condone bad behavior by anybody.

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  5. Hay shufrei debolei beafrei, vechaval al deabdin. My heart goes out for her and her family. Titnachmu vetitnachmi. Tichleh shana vekilelateha. Shana tova.

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  6. If she had joined a group advocating spreading avoda zara in Israel would your response have been any different? Gay rights is poison for Israel and it was the cause of the mabul. She may have not been aware of how evil her association with this group was but she became ensnared in an evil cause and was hurt by it.

    You've written a fine indictment of the Orthodox community and smeared our name in public. It's not %100 clear that what Shlissel did was wrong even though he could have targeted the more flagrant violators. I heard that Rav Eliyashev gave him a yasher coach for what he did in 2005.

    Shira's death was unfortunate but it's like dancing near a volcano where you could get burnt. The muted Orthodox response was due to not wanting to endorse the evil cause in any way. It was the right approach

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  7. SDVSDVSDV

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  8. Wow. If you're not clear that Shlissel is a רוצח in every meaning of the term, it is no wonder at all how this post went completely over your head.

    The closest analogy I can think of is the בריוני of the Kamtza agaddita. Alas, it seems there's always people who will plunge us all into ruin, and justify it every step of the way.

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  9. This blog kept quiet about the assassination, and only several days later published a post saying that the murderer was crazy, and therefore is not representative of the hareidi community.
    It was a telling silence.

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  10. @Factsof life - your obnoxious screed is exactly the problem that the post is concerned with.

    Your public pronouncements on this topic without any halachic authority behind you are wrong.
    Using your make believe psakim you "solve "all the issues of the world - but they are simply not valid.
    Your logic is "if gedolim only know what I know they would psaken X" or "I am sure the gedolim agree with me". That was never and it never will be the basis of genuine psak.

    Your only "proof" is a rumor that Rav Eliashiv approved of Schlissel's action. Please produce actual documentation for your claim.

    She was not killed by her support of gay rights she was killed by Shlissel who wrongly gave himself the right to execute people against halacha.

    Objectively Shlissel has done a great chilul hashem and vastly greater sins than any of his victims.

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  11. BDE This lovely young lady was a talented pianist. What has happened and is happening to Goy ha Kodesh?

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  12. Why are some in the frum community making the mistake of turning Banki, who participated in the homosexual abomination parade in the Holy City of Yerushalayim Ir HaKodesh, again a homosexual parade in Yerushalayim Ir HaKodesh that has been condemned and denounced in the gravest terms by Gedolei Yisroel across the spectrum with Rav Elyashev and others calling for it to be stopped, and Banki marched in it and she is being now turned into a hero and saint?

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  13. Where is your halachic authority to post his despicable smearing of the Orthodox public? Which Rav provided you guidance on this?

    Shlissel may have been wrong but to say that his sin is greater than those who engage in an open aveira with a chiyuv misa and who are maisis and maidiach klal yisroel to follow this evil approach which will definitely be a kitrug gadol on the klal is totally misguided.

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  14. Please explain how he is different that Pinchos? Why don't you care about the destruction of the morals of Eretz Yisroel and the danger it brings with it?

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  15. What does being a talented pianist have to do with anything? She could be completely untalented, and it would still be a wicked act of retzichah.

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  16. An utterly foolish comment. If you don't recoil with horror at the idea of a frume yid committing murder, there is something wrong with you.

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  17. Why do you opine that the Aveira of Retzicha - by a person acting לשם שמים albeit horribly mistakenly- is a greater Chilul Hashem than a mass rally to show pride in גילוי עריות and תועבה? And why is your opinion more "objective" than anybody else's - What "actual documentation" do you have to back up your claim? Where is your "halachic authority"?

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  18. Why don't you write: "All these homosexuals used to have pure, unsullied Neshamos. What has happened and is happening to Goy ha Kodesh?" And by the way - what is the connection between musical talent and Kedusha?

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  19. those who engage in an open aveira with a chiyuv misa

    Not applicable to lesbians.

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  20. Perhaps I should have expressed myself
    otherwise. When I say that Shira ZL
    was a talented pianist I should maybe have gone further and said a lovely
    talented young lady with her life in front of her. That talent was bestowed upon her by haShem alone. David do not sully her memory any further where is your kedusha and respect. When I ask what has happened to Goy ha
    Kodesh I am asking what direction we are going in when terrible things are
    happening in our society? A Jew – frum or not frum carrying such an
    atrocity amongst other Jews? An
    innocent young girl robbed of her children through lies and violence and a
    whole community including Rabonnim turn their backs? Problems with domestic and child
    abuse cover ups and threats. Well Chaim you and I do not know what about anyone's neshamo except our own and at the end of the day lets remember there is only one Judge.

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  21. I won't get into a silly discussion about Pinchas, as if the נרצחת in our case was comity in anything close

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  22. 3) pre-Conditions for Pinchas that must be met

    Umah Pinchas that was mekane leshem shomayim ossoi hoish veossah hoisho
    beoisso mokom, is only when 1) besha'a sheroin es hama'asse velo leachar
    hamaasse, 2) velo pirash, 3) more so the kanoiee must be clean of such aveiros
    as bnei odom ksherin, amrinan "halacha vein morin ken", Shira that was not
    involved in any of this outside of standing on the sideline, al achas pi kamah
    vekamah. More so, even the Zimri marchers themselves may kill the attacker,
    since he is a Rodef. These are hard facts of HALACHA! Pinchas Schlissel was
    acting on his own, already had a criminal record in prior, is not from the
    anoshim ksherim, and did not meet any of these preconditions, is a Rotseach
    limehadrin, veod mevakesh schar kePinchas?






    Even Moav was spared, since tsadikim were to descend from them in the
    future. If he is looking for Chillul haShem, he can find a dime a dozen in his
    own backyard and no need to be mechapes birushalayim beneros. Yitamu chatoim min
    ho'orets velo hachotim, spare Shira since she was not one of them. Don't for one
    moment think that I support the marchers or their rights, however, lo zu
    haderech velo zu ha'ir.

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  23. @Chaim - I was debating with myself whether to answer your shameful response. I can understand
    "Facts of Life" expressing himself in an insenstive way with a clearly mistaken understanding of elementary halacha - because he is a genuine ignoramous.

    But what is your excuse? I would suggest you run your reply by one of your rebbeim and see if he is proud of your "gaonish" response.

    You apparently totally missed the message of the post and are totally oblivious to how your "frum" thinking is perceived outside of your circles. This blog is read by all types of people and all types of religions. One of my rebbeim told me he considered Meir Kahane a rodef because of the danger he was placing all Jews in with his "Torah psakim". Surely Shlissel's horrific act is not only wrong according to objective halacha but also in the larger picture.
    You should read Rav Moshe Feinstein psak about the consequences of a "frum" doctor who doesn't want to save a goy's life on Shabbos and on the basis of the foreseeable consequence Rav Moshe permits it.

    It is clear that Shlissel is a nut who committed murder. No competent rav would have told him that there he should do such a thing. He was a self-appointed executioner with no basis in halacha and anybody who had killed him protecting the victims would have done a great mitzva.

    Again please show your "psak" to your rav and see if he agrees with you - and whether he permits you to publicize his opinion in his name. You can talk about apikorsim and who is the bigger sinner all you want - but you lack either elementary knowledge of the world or seichel or perhaps both.

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  24. @Facts of Life - you clearly are ignorant of elementary halacha if you can even ask such a question. Pinchas is not a justification for anyone to kill sinners

    There is no halacha that a person can go around stabbing people who are not religious. There is a requirment of beis din - and no beis din rules on capital punishment today. Aside from that the victim was not guilty of a crime punishable by capital punishment.

    A frum Jew who kills people as a zealot is much more destructive of the moral fiber of society than secular Jews who support homosexuals.

    If frum society is itself corrupt it is worse than the possible corrupting influences on a healthy frum society.

    You might have read the Netziv's words that the destruction of the Temple was because of frum people who were fanatics and caused others to die who they viewed as apikorsim.

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  25. @Facts of life - this comment is gross and disgusting. Only a complete ignoramous would think that a Jew can appoint himself as executioner without warning and beis din - especially when the victim was not guilty of the crime he was protesting.

    You have no understanding of chilul hashem. Shliseel not only was wrong but he is a murderer who by his criminal act endangers the lives of Jews everywhere. See Rav Moshe Feinstein concerning the need to save a goy's life on Shabbos to protect Jews all over the world. If you can't understand that elementary concept - please ask any rav.

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  26. @David - you grossly misunderstood the post. No one here is turning her into a hero and a saint.

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  27. I understand how your desire to defend your statement leads you to impugn anybody who dares disagree with you, without responding to any of the actual points - but please do not put words in my mouth. I gave no "psak", and was not ח"ו coming to justify the murder, which I called "horribly mistaken". I was responding to your proclamation about Chilul Hashem, which I thought, and think, is wrong.

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  28. "Well Chaim you and I do not know what about anyone's neshamo except our own and at the end of the day lets remember there is only one Judge."


    How many times does this nonsense come up in its various forms.


    (1) The Torah teaches us that doing Aveiros sullies the Neshama.


    (2) The Torah tells us that certain actions are Aveiros.


    You cannot write what you wrote without disagreeing with one of the above premises, and denying either is unfortunately not acceptable for a Jew who obeys the Torah.


    Of course when it comes to crimes that you agree are sinful, your anti-judgmentalism stance goes out the window, and you cry "what is happening to Clal Yisrael?" Sorry, but the רבש"ע's list of sins is longer than yours.

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  29. Thus far folks have not acknowledged that ten years ago when Yishai Schlissel attacked the homosexual abomination toeiva pride march in 2005, and wounded three people with a knife, Maran Rav Elyashev zt'l reacted positively to this act.

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  30. @David - the assertion has been made before - but I can not find any reliable sources that confirm this. I can also make up claims - please provide evidence.

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  31. Wow I didn't realise talking about Hashem is nonsense.... I was brought up to have Yiras Shamayim. Judaism encourages active discussion and learning not knocking another person down. However, where are the Torah values in murder? I seem to remember somewhere a Commandment against murder amongst other things such as lying and thieving. That man went into a crowd of human beings with a knife and murder in his heart. You will not sully any further the memory of that beautiful Jewish daughter

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  32. @David - are you proud of Schlissel's actions? Do you view him as a hero that you would emulate if you had the guts? Do you praise him to your friends and family and tell your children - "a true kiddush hashem"?! Or is he disgusting. Validating the horrific view of anti-Semities and making the name "frum Jew" something to be ashamed of?

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  33. @Chaim - actually you don't understand some elementary issues. Your assumption that my negative response to you was a debating technique or one based on my supposed psychological need to attack all those who disagree with me - is very sad and simply untrue.

    You are taking a bean counting approach to a complex issues and demonstrating not only a gross lack of understanding of human nature - but also a sensitivity to Torah values.

    Instead of responding to the the issues you take a pedantic position of scolding me my supposed lack of objectivity. The gemora describes your actions of being a "chassid shoteh".

    Regarding the issue of chillul hashem - the gemora gives a simple measure. As a result of this action do people look up to frum Jews more and wish there were more of them - or the opposite? Haven't heard of praise or admiration of Shlissel horrendous act which unfortunately was done in the name of Torah.

    People disagree with me many times - but I don't respond to all of them the way I am responding to you. So stop hiding behind psychobabble and acknowledge that I honestly disagree with your views on the basis of my understanding of Torah.

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  34. Your gratuitous insults add nothing to the discussion and only weaken your arguments.

    I agree with his Rebbi that Horowitz shouldn't have published his condemnation of the Orthodox public to the world and neither should you have. Which Rav did you consult before publishing this?

    Shlissel's act was his own and there is no reason that the Orthodox public has to apologize for what he did whatever your opinion about it is. The public endorsement of a sin that is an abomination and a chiyuv misa (for men) is not a trivial thing. The people in the parade are making a public declaration of war on Hashem Yisborach and his Torah and this is not at all trivial and this display must be protested in a valid way.

    As to the public not going to be menachem avel for unfortunate Miss Banki, there are a number of reasons for this;

    1 Many in the Orthodox world didn't know the details of the attacks and weren't aware of the particulars of the victims

    2 People did not want to seem to be advocating for the evil cause by being menachem avel there

    3 Many may have felt that they would not be welcome at the Banki house and did not go for that reason.

    You are wrong about a bais din being required for a legitimate kanai. See Rav Moshe's explanation for this for Pinchas in Dorash Moshe.

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  35. Firstly, I never said, or intended to imply, that you do not "honestly disagree with me based on your understanding of Torah". I accused you of misrepresenting my view on whether the murder was justified or not. But let's let that pass.


    Do you think that the sole criterion for Chillul Hashem is what secular society thinks about our actions? Do you think that we should ban Mila and Shechita if gentiles consider these acts to be barbarious, in order to avoid a Chillul Hashem? And do you think that when thousands of Jews gather to celebrate violating חייבי מיתות that this is not a Chillul Hashem, because homosexuality is in vogue nowadays.


    We can debate whether Schlissel's actions constitute רדיפה of any sort - but that is not germane to the Chillul Hashem issue.

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  36. This is boring. Instead of responding to any actual points, you just retreat to the default nonsense of accusing me of things I didn't do. Don't worry, I don't hold it against you - I'm sure that engaging in "active discussion" like this is second nature for you now. Keep defining "Emuna" and "Yiras Shamayim" as you see fit.

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  37. @Facts of LIfe - please look up the meaning of gratuitious - there was nothing gratuitious in my comments about you.

    Your assuming that Shlissel is the case of Pinchas is something that is objectively wrong and indicates that you haven't really looked into the matter seriously. You continue to repeat your error by claiming support from Rav Moshe Feinstein. You can't incorrectly declare an orange to be an apple and then bring proof from apples. It is not the same case. This has been pointed out to you a number of times - but it hasn't made an impact because you obviously "know better".

    Your nonsense about Shlissel's actions were his own - shows you are not aware of the principal that all Jews are responsible for each other. You are unaware of how this act is viewed and the possbile negative consequences of your attitude.

    Protest is not tolerating assasination.

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  38. @chaim -if you are bored so please stop wasting my time by responding. You clearly do not understand my points

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  39. @Chaim - the fact that I relied on an explicit gemora to explain Chilul HaShem and that the Rambam explictly paskens like this gemora - is sufficient to make to a valid explanation.
    We are not dealing with cases like mila or schechita.
    Please show me any gadol who has said what he did was prasieworthy?

    We weren't talking about whether the parade is a chilul hashem - it surely it. We were talking about responding to the act of a frum Jew who claims he acted according to the Torah. I particular we were discussing the appropriate response when a charedi Jew kills someone in the name of religion.

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  40. Your pattern of insulting those that don't agree with you is indicative that the insults are not based on any valid foundation.

    You did not answer who you asked about publishing this information. Apparently you are not concerned about the slander of the olam Hatorah.

    What did you mean about going to a bais din? You couldn't have meant that a true kanai (which Shlissel wasn't) needs to go to a bais din as Rav Moshe has clearly indicated.

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  41. Daas Torah - you are confusing me. I say something to "Emunah" and you respond. Are you "Emunah"? If not, then why do you assume that what I say to one person is said to you as well? Very strange indeed.

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  42. Don't tell me what we were discussing - I was there, remember? We were discussing your pronouncement of which is a greater Chillul Hashem, and I took issue with you. Period. How many God-fearing gentiles look at the institutionalised widespread sinning in the holy land, by the holy chosen people? Do you seriously think that that is less Chillul Hashem than one sole murderer, who every society unfortunately produces, and is not officially endorsed by anybody?

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  43. And that is exactly the point. Since Pinchas Schlissel's actions was not qualified by kanoiss or even a resemblance to maase zimri, how can he take matters of life and death into his hands. Having that, Dinei nefoshos needs a bet Din of 23, of which we have none today.

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  44. It is too late int he day for me to enter this debate, but the question of Chillul Hashem raises an anomalous problem: In the political debate, some Jews/Zionists, even frum ones, suggest that Israel's openess to gay rights, in contrast to the surrounding Arab states and authorities, shows Israel's moral correctness. they believe this is a kind of "kiddush Hashem". the whole thing is quite twisted, but this adds another level of complexity to the problem.

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  45. Chaim,
    The murdered girl was not a homosexual according to the Torah. That issur applies only to men (MSM). The general issur that is applied to lesbians (females) is (methinks) darkei Emori, and this is at worst a lav.
    This is quite apart form the fact that today we do not have a BD which is empowered to apply chiyuv mita, and no individual can take matters into their own hand.

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  46. Maran Rav Elyashev zt'l reacted positively to this act.


    If this were indeed the case, why is it that none of Rav Elyashive's talmidim went out to do this type of act??? Why is there no public proclamation or recording of Rav Elyashive supposedly supporting this act??? Why did Rav Elyashive not lead the act himself? Why is it that only a Shoteh le'halacha committed such an act?

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  47. I also misunderstood the post. What did Mr. Horowitz intend to do when he published this article in The Jerusalem Post, and what was his true intention in the letter he sent you in asking you to post this.


    Apologetics? Does shame of his religion have anything to do with it? Did anyone of note condone the murder, in any way?


    Yes, proudly so, people do not see marchers in this type of parade in a positive light. Of course it is very sad that she lost her life. It is also very sad that she chose to march in the parade. (this is not justifying her being murdered of physically harmed). Her unfortunate and horrible death will not ,and cannot, negate the her erroneous choice of marching in that parade.

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  48. Huh? Relevance? Are you suggesting that this violation of tznius and maaseh Eretz Mitzrayim doesn't sully the soul?

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  49. "but to say that his sin is greater than those who engage in an open aveira with a chiyuv misa"


    He did an open aveira with a chiyuv misa. Murder.

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  50. It is sheker. Period. True, that "community" of waywardness and freaks has no redeeming value. Equally true is that the murder is horrendous, unjustified and absolutely wrong.

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  51. You only quoted half of my comment. He did a private sin, they are instigating the entire Jewish people to sin openly in a death penalty sin (for males at least) in open rebellion against Hashem and his Torah

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  52. I hardly think it is likely that there is any shred of truth to this claim.
    An example for a much simpler case is as follows: A few years ago, R' Shmuel Eliyahu proposed that Jews do not rent apartments to arabs (in the North) in order to prevent intermarriage and also the prohibition of Lo techanem etc. Rav Shteinman, who was second to Rav Elyashiv said that if Jews do this, then why can't Germans ban Jews from renting apartments in Berlin? If I recall correctly, Rav Elyashiv at the time made the old joke that why to Tzionim act so strict on giving (or renting) land to goyim, but are happy to do heter mechira?
    This kind of approach, Hareid Daas Torah, is cognizant of what the outside world thinks of what we do. Furthermroe, R' Eliyahu had a very strong case halachically for his proposal. So unless verifiable evidence can be shown, the claim that R' Elyashiv made such an approval is unbelievable.

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  53. Eddie - you misunderstand me. (But first, it's not דרכי אמורי, it's כמעשה ארץ מצרים לא תעשו, which is a Lav.) I am not claiming that there was any חיוב מיתה here, or any justification for the murder. I am just pointing out that when there is a huge pro-abomination rally, which constitutes a massive Chillul Hashem, "Emunah" only sees something bad happening to the "holy nation" when one of them is killed - not in the rally itself! That's all.

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  54. Thanks, Chaim - OK, i don't disagree with what you have written here. The rally or gay pride is a chillul Hashem, but then again it is relative. As i said, some claim it to be , chas v'shalom a 2Kiddush Hashem". It might be a Kiddush medinat Yisroel in the eyes of the Western liberals, but it ain't quite a kiddush Hashem.

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  55. No, I am saying that it is akin to wearing shaatnez, ie a basic lav. i don' think you can go around killing people for wearing shaatnez.

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  56. He committed murder in public. What in the world are you talking about?

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  57. I am not really surprised that this blog attracts people who condone Shissel's murder.

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  58. You don't understand. He did the sin himself without getting anyone else involved to doing the sin with him. The gay reshaim are sinning themselves and trying to get everyone else to go along with them or at least be agreeable to allowing it to be done without condemning it as the grave sin that it is. Their sin is an open rebellion to have the entire congregation violate severe crimes in the Torah.

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  59. @Chaim - yes. In the context of the deafening silence.

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  60. OK then. We can disagree - but please be honest when presenting the views of others. Don't ask me to "find a Gadol who says that the act was praiseworthy", as if that is my opinion, after I explicitly called it "murder" and "horribly mistaken".


    By the way - if you claim fealty to the Gedolim, then presumably you recognise that they, like most of Charedi society, have been "deafeningly silent". This would indicate that in their opinion, silence is the correct response (which, of course, is not the same as saying that they endorse what happened). Or am I missing something?

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  61. @Chaim - reading the silence as a definite decision is simply wrong. Often the issue is the gadol is afraid that he will be criticized or misunderstood so he says nothing. Many times they simply don't understand the issues and feel "the proection of wisdom is silence"

    We have gone through this with Tropper, child abuse, various divorce cases, various cases of dybbuk, the lady who was abusing her son at hadassah etc etc etc

    Bottom line you can't make a positive assertion of the views of gadolim by their silence.

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  62. So why is the silence of the Chareidi public deafening? The reasons you give don't only apply to Gedolim! Besides which, wouldn't the prudent course of action be to ask the Gedolim (or a Gadol) what the correct response should be, instead of automatically assuming that it is NOT to remain silent, as the Gedolim have done, and chalking up their silence to a host of concocted motives? היכא דאפשר לברורי מבררינן.

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  63. @Chaim - you are assuming that it is possible to clarify the matter i.e., there is a unified view some call Daas Torah.

    In my experience it is difficult to 1) get clear answers 2) get answers that are for the public record 3) get answers that aren't based on inferences from leading questions that bias the outcome 4) are based on a reliable report that isn't upon to a wide ranger of interpretations.

    If you think you are better connected please find out the information and report back ot us.

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  64. On the contrary - I am sure that you are better connected than I am. Do you have enough שייכות to any living Gedolim to be able to ask them this question?

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  65. @Chaim I do have a good relationship with Rav Sternbuch and the issues has come up repeatedly over the years and my summary of the problems remains.

    It is very difficult to get an explicit public statement on a significant issue - especially when no other rabbonim are saying anything.

    Tropper affair was perhaps an exception - except in that case the entire Bedatz had signed a denunciation of Tropper. Though bizzarely enough Tropper's people in Bnei Brak were convinced that I had manipulated the Bedatz with my advanced psychological methods.

    A number of years ago there was a case of a frum guy throwing acid in the face of a girl he didn't think was modest enough. When I ask Rav Sternbuch why no protest - he said that this is in fact what these people want and unless acid throwing became more common it was counterproductive to publicly protest it.

    Likewise what is going on in Philadelphia regarding Tamar Epstein - is rather astounding. There are clearly significant poskim who are strongly against what is happening. Yet when asked why don't they publicly say something the response is - no one will listen to me against a gadol!

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