Thursday, October 27, 2022

Wife disagreed with Daas Torah

Shemos Rabbah (52:03) The story is told of R. Simeon b. Halafta, that he once came home just before the Sabbath and found that he had no food for that day, so he went outside the city and prayed to God, with the result that a precious stone dropped down for him from heaven. He sold this to a jeweller and bought with the money provisions for the Sabbath. When his wife asked him, ‘Where did you get all these [good things]?’ he replied: ‘God has provided them.’ Said she, ‘If thou dost not tell me whence these come, I will not touch a morsel.’ He then told her the whole story, concluding: ' Thus did I pray to God and [the precious stone] was sent down for me from heaven.’ But she replied: ' I will not taste aught till thou promise me to return the precious stone as soon as Sabbath terminates.’ When he asked her the reason, she replied: ‘Dost thou wish that in Paradise thy table shall lack all good things, while that of thy colleagues shall be laden with them?’ R. Simeon then went and told the story to Rabbi Judah ha-Nasi who said to him: ' Go back and tell thy wife that if aught be lacking from thy table, l will replenish it from mine.’ When he told this to his wife, she retorted: ‘Take me to him who has taught thee Torah.’ When she came to him, she said: ' O master, does then one righteous man see the other in the World to Come? Has not every righteous man a world for himself’ When R. Simeon b. Halafta heard this, he at once returned the precious stone to heaven. Our Sages said: This last miracle was more difficult to perform than was the first. As soon as he stretched out his hand to restore it to heaven an angel descended and took it from him.

Berachos (10a)There were these hooligans in Rabbi Meir’s neighborhood who caused him a great deal of anguish. Rabbi Meir prayed for God to have mercy on them, that they should die. Rabbi Meir’s wife, Berurya, said to him: What is your thinking? On what basis do you pray for the death of these hooligans? Do you base yourself on the verse, as it is written: “Let sins cease from the land” (Psalms 104:35), which you interpret to mean that the world would be better if the wicked were destroyed? But is it written, let sinners cease?” Let sins cease, is written. One should pray for an end to their transgressions, not for the demise of the transgressors themselves. 3Moreover, go to the end of the verse, where it says: “And the wicked will be no more.” If, as you suggest, transgressions shall cease refers to the demise of the evildoers, how is it possible that the wicked will be no more, i.e., that they will no longer be evil? Rather, pray for God to have mercy on them, that they should repent, as if they repent, then the wicked will be no more, as they will have repented.

16 comments:

  1. and?
    what rules can we derive from this?

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  2. no rules just an awareness that this could not happen today

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  3. That's women's common sense trumps it.

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  4. Is today's leadership more knowledgeable than chazal? Or women lesser than how they were?

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  5. well, the first question is whether the wife's advice is true or the Rabbi's? Where does all this anti-materialism come from? Doesn't the Torah speak of rewards, eg Im Bechukotai? And the bracha vs klalah.
    If it is true, should we be living like the Essenes , in holes in the ground? I know some Roshei Yeshivos who have very luxurious lifestyles.

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  6. This story is brought in the Talmud Bavli in Taanis in the name of Rabbi Chanina ben Dosa. Why source it from a Medrash if you have a Gemora?

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  7. Was his decision to daven for it Daas Torah? Was Sorah's conflict with Avrohom regarding Yishmael arguing against his Daas Torah? Avrohom was commanded to listen to Sorah, proving she was a bigger prophet, not a bigger Talmud Chochom

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  8. Nope!
    This is a theological dispute

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  9. You don't tjink medrashim are proper sources? Or are you simply parroting the yeshiva view that gemora is the highest truth

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  10. https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/2932910/jewish/Challahs-from-Heaven.htm

    That was with the golden table leg.

    I don't believe these events took place historically, rather the midrash is trying to convey a teaching. And the teaching is not about arguing with Daas Torah, since it had not yet been invented.

    to my very limited mind, it is teaching perhaps 2 things -

    1. to learn to live with adversity, since we cannot rely on miracles.

    2. Perhaps a more sinister concept - that we have our lot in this world, and to try to change it may cause damage somehow in overall scheme, whether in olam hazeh or olam haba.

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  11. Of course Medrash is an appropriate source. I'm not a parrot. This is my understanding feom my Rebbeim and research. Do you have an actual source that it's preferable to cite one over the other?

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  12. Please give some substance to your argument

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  13. The Ramban cited by the Chatam Sofer supportse Mordechai's contention, unless you are saying Rav Sofer disagrees with the Ramban?

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