https://yated.com/the-new-proliferation-of-female-pseudo-orthodox-rabbis-and-more/
However, there is one notable exception to this trend: the ordination of female “Orthodox rabbis”. In contrast with an acute decrease in the ordination of male Open Orthodox clergy, the female side of this enterprise has quietly mushroomed both in Eretz Yisroel and in the US, as two seminaries and a network of pseudo-Orthodox congregations have been involved in trying to radically change the Orthodox landscape and its future leadership profile.
They learn the material. They take the tests and pass with good marks. They are perceived as friendlier and more approachable and 50% of any congregation will automatically feel more comfortable with questions about family life and niddah. These are all considerations that can't just be waved away with "It's not Orthodox!"
ReplyDeletethere are likely a couple of reasons why this is shunned -
ReplyDelete1- any innovation must gain wide acceptance, and this simply has not
2- the source is from OO/feminista world, whom the strictly orthodox do not like or approve of. OO is left of even R Riskin, as far as I am aware.
There is a lack of interest in compromise on either side as well.
ReplyDeleteLook at the Yo'atzot. Great idea. Makes a lot of frum women more comfortable because they're more approachable with sensitive issues. And they work under rabbis so the "right person" is still in charge. This could be expanded to shuls and might have a strong affect on attracting people who now would feel more welcome. But one side is "No, only men!" and the other side is "We wanna be rabbis too"
Maybe it is not gaining acceptance because of articles such as this one.
ReplyDeleteWomen Rabbis?
ReplyDeleteBy: HERSHEL SCHACHTER
"Hakirah", Volume 11, pp. 19-23
https://hakirah.org/vol%2011%20schachter.pdf
Orthodox Women Rabbis?
Tentative Thoughts that Distinguish Between the Timely and the Timeless
By: MICHAEL J. BROYDE and SHLOMO M. BRODY
"Hakirah", Volume 11, pp. 25-58
Esther, a Queen. Promulgated the holiday of Purim. Does this not have validity?
ReplyDeletereally?!
ReplyDeletech9
ReplyDeleteכט וַתִּכְתֹּב אֶסְתֵּר הַמַּלְכָּה בַת-אֲבִיחַיִל, וּמָרְדֳּכַי הַיְּהוּדִי--אֶת-כָּל-תֹּקֶף: לְקַיֵּם, אֵת אִגֶּרֶת הַפֻּרִים הַזֹּאת--הַשֵּׁנִית. 29 Then Esther the queen, the daughter of Abihail, and Mordecai the Jew, wrote down all the acts of power, to confirm this second letter of Purim.
ל וַיִּשְׁלַח סְפָרִים אֶל-כָּל-הַיְּהוּדִים, אֶל-שֶׁבַע וְעֶשְׂרִים וּמֵאָה מְדִינָה--מַלְכוּת, אֲחַשְׁוֵרוֹשׁ: דִּבְרֵי שָׁלוֹם, וֶאֱמֶת. 30 And he sent letters unto all the Jews, to the hundred twenty and seven provinces of the kingdom of Ahasuerus, with words of peace and truth,
לא לְקַיֵּם אֶת-יְמֵי הַפֻּרִים הָאֵלֶּה בִּזְמַנֵּיהֶם, כַּאֲשֶׁר קִיַּם עֲלֵיהֶם מָרְדֳּכַי הַיְּהוּדִי וְאֶסְתֵּר הַמַּלְכָּה, וְכַאֲשֶׁר קִיְּמוּ עַל-נַפְשָׁם, וְעַל-זַרְעָם: דִּבְרֵי הַצּוֹמוֹת, וְזַעֲקָתָם. 31 to confirm these days of Purim in their appointed times, according as Mordecai the Jew and Esther the queen had enjoined them, and as they had ordained for themselves and for their seed, the matters of the fastings and their cry.
לב וּמַאֲמַר אֶסְתֵּר--קִיַּם, דִּבְרֵי הַפֻּרִים הָאֵלֶּה; וְנִכְתָּב, בַּסֵּפֶר. {ס} 32 And the commandment of Esther confirmed these matters of Purim; and it was written in the book
Esther, was a Queen, and a prophetess (Megillah 14a), but she was not a Rabbi.
ReplyDeleteEsther also did not promulgate the holiday of Purim, since she had no power to do on her own.
She asked the Sages of her day, that THEY should declare it a holiday, and after debate with Esther, they acquiesced.
[Megillah 7a - שלחה להם אסתר לחכמים: קבעוני לדורות]
So while Esther suggested it to the Sages, the ultimate decision and enactment was from the Sages, and not from Esther.
No evidence she was a prophet.
ReplyDeleteHow about mordechai, was he a navi, a rabbi, or just a tzaddik?
Are you mistakenly claiming the authority of the mitzva of Purim is from Esther?!
ReplyDeleteAre you trying to claim Esther was the authority that decreed the obligation of Purim?!
ReplyDeletethere are several stages outlined in the Megillah, Ch 9
ReplyDeleteFirst, the Jews who were fighting, celebrated on the 14th (in the provinces) and the 15th (Shushan)
v.17-19
Them we see that Mordechai sent "sefarim" to all the Jews across the Persian diaspora to keep these days as a day of simcha and feating - 20-28, and the Jews accepted this.
Then Esther wrote a second Iggeret, and sent it to all the Jews 29-32
לא לְקַיֵּם
אֶת-יְמֵי הַפֻּרִים הָאֵלֶּה בִּזְמַנֵּיהֶם, כַּאֲשֶׁר קִיַּם עֲלֵיהֶם
מָרְדֳּכַי הַיְּהוּדִי וְאֶסְתֵּר הַמַּלְכָּה, וְכַאֲשֶׁר קִיְּמוּ
עַל-נַפְשָׁם, וְעַל-זַרְעָם: דִּבְרֵי הַצּוֹמוֹת, וְזַעֲקָתָם.
31 to confirm these days of Purim in their appointed times,
according as Mordecai the Jew and Esther the queen had enjoined them,
and as they had ordained for themselves and for their seed, the matters
of the fastings and their cry.
לב וּמַאֲמַר אֶסְתֵּר--קִיַּם, דִּבְרֵי הַפֻּרִים הָאֵלֶּה; וְנִכְתָּב, בַּסֵּפֶר.
So Esther was instrumental in this process, but Mordechai ws the initiator.
It is not clear where the Chachamim were who accepted the request from Esther - were they in the Persian empire or elsewhere?
I may well be mistaken, but the Megillah seems to say this:
ReplyDeleteלב וּמַאֲמַר אֶסְתֵּר--קִיַּם, דִּבְרֵי הַפֻּרִים הָאֵלֶּה; וְנִכְתָּב, בַּסֵּפֶר
No evidence that Esther was a prophet?
ReplyDeleteI provided you with a reference (Megillah 14a), where it's stated explicitly that Esther is one of the seven prophetesses.
Did you bother to read the Gemara, is it that you feel that you argue on Chazal?
Esther did not promulgate the holiday of Purim, since she had no power to do on her own.
ReplyDeleteShe asked the Sages of her day, that THEY should declare it a holiday, and after debate with Esther, they acquiesced.
[Megillah 7a
שלחה להם אסתר לחכמים, כתבוני לדורות
שלחה להם אסתר לחכמים, קבעוני לדורות
So while Esther suggested it to the Sages, the ultimate decision and enactment was from the Sages, and not from Esther.
I just looked at the Gemara you cited, says she had ruach Kodesh.
ReplyDeleteIn the Megillah itself she is not prophesying, and does not mention G-d's Name.
Also, don't Chazal say that there is no prophecy outside of E'Y?
I see.
ReplyDeletewho were the sages at the time? Was it Anshei Knesset HaGedolah? If so, wasn't Mordechai amongst this Knesset? Or perhaps not yet?
Where was the BD located? It wasn't yet in Israel, was it?
Here is Gemara which states that Mordechai and Esther "proposed" the holiday of Purim:
Megillah 5b:10
This can be proven from the fact that initially, when Mordecai and Esther proposed the celebration of Purim, it is written: “A day of gladness and feasting and a good day [yom tov]” (Esther 9:19), and at the end, when the celebration of Purim was accepted by the Jewish people, it is written: “That they should make them days of feasting and gladness” (Esther 9:22), whereas the term good day [yom tov], which alludes to a day when it is prohibited to perform labor, is not written. The people never accepted upon themselves the prohibition against performing labor on Purim as if it were a Festival, and therefore the prohibition never took effect
So according to the citations you made from Megillah 7a, the Sages approved the proposal, i.e they officialy gave it a "rubber stamp" .
But people themselves had started to celebrate it even before Mordechai submitted his letters.
Then there is another question - he submitted his letters across the disapora - was this to jewish communities, or the sages/ rabbis across these communities. In other words - was there a sitting Sanhedrin at the time, or there were just local Rabbis, in each town, and they accepted by a "majority" count of responses? did the rabbis sit together? they could not have used telephone or Zoom at the time, so they either had to sitt as a sanhedrin, or just reply to Mordechai by letter, and he counts the yays and nays!
In Megillat esther, there is no "open" prophecy, which we observe elsewehre in the Tanach , where the Neviim explicitly prophesy, and the Scripture tells us that they are doing so. Also, my understanding of Daniel, is that Chazal did not consider him a true Navi, becasue he was outside of E'Y, and prophecy is only in Israel. Daniel lived in Persia, just as Esther did, so at most she can be a visionary, like Daniel was. But there are no visions mentioned as being expereinced by Mordechai or Esther - although Mordechai obviously has Divine guidance , as he knows what to do and what to say.
ReplyDeleteIn other words your initial assumptions were wrong
ReplyDeleteExcept the first meaning of the, when you google it is _
ReplyDeletepromulgate
/ˈprɒm(ə)lɡeɪt/
Learn to pronounce
verb
promote or make widely known (an idea or cause).
"these objectives have to be promulgated within the organization"
Which she clearly did do.
but you clearly did not mean it that way
ReplyDeleteBut you are correct.
ReplyDeleteI said she was a Queen, but not a halachic one.
the text of the megillah makes it look like the takkanah was made by Mordecai and Esther, but we need to look at what the oral law says in detail.
it actually goes far deeper than even the quoted sections in Megillah. plus the neviim and chachamim fought to oppose the establishment of a new holiday.
very interesting indeed.
ת"ר ארבעים ושמונה נביאים ושבע נביאות נתנבאו להם לישראל...
ReplyDeleteשבע נביאות מאן נינהו, שרה, מרים, דבורה, חנה, אביגיל, חולדה, ואסתר
how do you know?
ReplyDeleteIn any case, both types of "promulgation" are subject to acceptance by the majority of the masses, and the masses had already taken upon themselves to celebrate , at least on the first year. So even if Esther "promulgated" ( publicised, campaigned for) and the Sages promulgated (issued the halachic decree) , it requires the majority of Jews to accept it, in order for the halacha to be valid.
Yeah, they try but then they have to twist into pretzels to explain Yechezkel (must've started when he was still in Israel and we just don't have a record of those prophecies), Daniel (wasn't a real prophet despite having all those magnificent visions) and Esther.
ReplyDeleteHulda, we have very little of.
ReplyDeleteWas Megillat Esther written through Nevuah? Just becasue she had at some point in her life Ruach kodesh, does not mean all her words and writings were Nevuah. Why did she argue with Mordechai, about being killed?
My understanding was that the Book of Esther does not have G-d's name, and therefore is not written with nevuah. Please correct me if I am wrong.
ReplyDeleteThe Talmud Shabbat 30b. states, “Prophecy does not come upon a prophet when he is sad or languid.”
ReplyDeleteSo Esther was not happy during this entire Megillah, how could she have prophesied? unless the requirement to be happy is only for male prophets!
The Talmud (Megillah 14a) clearly lists her as a prophetess, of which fact you were ignorant of, and despite having been shown an explicit source in the Talmud, you still have trouble accepting it.
ReplyDeleteYou can ask all the questions that you want, but that line in the Talmud is not going to go away.
A single Talmud citation does not answer all the questions.
ReplyDeleteWhen you said she did not have authority to enact a new holiday /mitzvah - would her being a Prophet give her such authority? Or is this a case of Adif Talmid Chacham m'navi?
Yes, she was a navi, but what were her prophetic teachings?
ReplyDeleteThe Talmud citation I cited, was not intended to answer any questions. It stated a fact; which you apparently have trouble accepting.
ReplyDeleteWhy did you hijack the subject of this Disqus thread; which is about the alleged proliferation of female pseudo-Orthodox “rabbis”?
ReplyDeleteNO, i accepted it
ReplyDeletethe question was whether women can be rabbis, or other figures of authority - guess what, Esther was a figure of authority and the
ReplyDeleteTalmud citation You cited confirmed this, which you apparently have trouble accepting. :)
If Chazal considered Megillas Esther to be written with Nevuah, it would be in Navi, not Ksuvim. They may have considered her to be a Nazi but perhaps her prophecies were not recorded, just like Huldah's. The Megilla isn't part of that prophecy.
ReplyDeleteBeing a prophet did not give a person Rabbinic authority, per se.
ReplyDeleteQueen Esther was the wife of a Persian monarch, and had absolutely no Rabbinic authority, unless you have some flexible definition of "authority" that you use however it suits you. If you think otherwise, please provide a source from Chazal to back up your position.
Maybe. Who twisted your hand to accept it?
ReplyDeleteEsther is #7 of the woman prophets.
ReplyDeleteHave you worked out the prophetic teachings of all the other 6?
Should read: Navi.
ReplyDeleteIR, thank you,
ReplyDeleteshtreimel tip to IR!
there are a few parallel discussions going on-
ReplyDeleteI wish to know if the megillah is written through Nevuah, or a historical document. See Ironheart's comment on the same question.
But Rabbinic is not the only authority - I would make the chiddush that there are 4 crowns, not 3 -
ReplyDeleteThe 4th being Prophetic crown. The 3 that Chachamim refer to being the Crown of Malchut; of Kehuna, and of Torah (talmud Torah).
Megillah 7a
ReplyDeleteאסתר ברוח הקודש נאמרה
What authority does a "Prophetic crown" convey?
ReplyDeleteIf you read the neviim, they give instruction to the people, to the Kings, and we are obligated to listen to them.
ReplyDeleteIsraelReader: "What authority does a "Prophetic crown" convey?"
ReplyDeleteSee Zechariah 7:
2 When Bethel-sarezer, and Regem-melech and his men, had sent to entreat the favour of the LORD,
3 and to speak unto the priests of the house of the LORD of
hosts, and to the prophets, saying: 'Should I weep in the fifth month,
separating myself, as I have done these so many years?' {P}
4 Then came the word of the LORD of hosts unto me, saying:
5 'Speak unto all the people of the land, and to the priests,
saying: When ye fasted and mourned in the fifth and in the seventh
month, even these seventy years, did ye at all fast unto Me, even to Me?
6 And when ye eat, and when ye drink, are ye not they that eat, and they that drink?
7 Should ye not hearken to the words which the LORD hath
proclaimed by the former prophets, when Jerusalem was inhabited and in
prosperity, and the cities thereof round about her, and the South and
the Lowland were inhabited?'
12 Yea, they made their hearts as an adamant stone, lest they
should hear the law, and the words which the LORD of hosts had sent by
His spirit by the hand of the former prophets; therefore came there
great wrath from the LORD of hosts.
So the Prophets had authority , and they taught Law , what you now call Halacha.