https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=4618298561619441&id=314191358696871
Despite this, we checked, investigated and questioned thoroughly. Witnesses testified that he committed adultery with married women for many years and they were forced to divorce because they were prohibited from their husbands. We saw rulings from other Batei Din (rabbinical courts) about these issues and supported the findings with additional unanimous evidence. In addition, we heard recordings in his own voice that attest to serious immoral acts, and we found him guilty without a doubt.
Guilty of what?
and then after finding him guilty we
- We called upon Walder to take upon himself a path of teshuva. We sent people to convince him to repent, in order to prevent a huge Chilul Hashem (desecration of God’s Name) when his actions became public. Instead of repenting, he chose to threaten us through his messengers, just as they tried to threaten Rav Yehuda Silman shlit”a who paskened (ruled) that people to remove Walder’s books from their homes. It’s a pity that he doesn’t (didn’t) surrender and follow a path of teshuva (repentance).
It seems clear from R Eliyahu's own words that his psak was about adultery involving consenting women and there was no rape or child abuse. Thus this was not related to the expose in Haaretz - despite all the yelling and wailing, Nothing about rape either - statutory or otherwise nor sodomy
If you read your own link , it includes child sexual abuse
ReplyDeleteSee this too https://vinnews.com/2021/12/28/rav-shmuel-eliyahu-the-moment-walder-died-dozens-of-girls-were-saved/
it was a nice after thought but not what he said originally
ReplyDeleteThis is quote from Rav Nakar, who is one of the dayanim in the BD.
ReplyDeletecontrary to your claim, it is satint explicitly that there was child abuse/rape to the complete or absolute degree
"מדובר פה על המעשים החמורים ביותר", הוא אומר. "פדופיליה של קטינות, מעשים שנעשו בהן עד הסוף – תוך ניצול מאוד מחפיר של מי שבאו לקבל ממנו ייעוץ ועזרה – והוא ניצל את מעמדו. נעשו גם דברים עם נשים נשואות, שכתוצאה מהם התפרקו משפחות".
על הטענות בדבר "לשון הרע" והביוש שהביא להתאבדותו, מבהיר הרב נקאר: "אנחנו נגד הלבנת פני חברו ברבים, ונגד לשון הרע – אבל פה יש הוכחות וראיות בבית דין, אז הדין הוא שונה לגמרי. חשוב להעביר את הדבר הזה".
https://www.ynet.co.il/judaism/article/hk3ptpksk
https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/headlines-breaking-stories/2038456/leading-bnei-brak-dayanim-pasken-not-to-read-walders-books-until-further-clarification.html
ReplyDeleteDayan Silman and Dayan Rosenberg
“Of course, all this [is true] if it’s clarified that the
allegations are true and he’s a ba’al aveirah and it hasn’t yet been
clarified. But because the author didn’t provide a clarification on the
matter and the allegations were not brought for clarification to a Din
Torah, so although the matter is a safeik, it is fitting not to read his books until the allegations are properly clarified.”
The author was required to bring a clarification, which he refused to do.
a) since he didn't come forward to clarify in BD, then the above presumably still applies to his books
b) Since according to the above it was then a safeik whether he is a baal aveirah, then at the very least it is still a safeik. If you accept Rav Eliayhu's BD, then he was a baal aveirah. And even if you claim that they only proved the "minor sin" of adultery, then he is a vadai baal aveirah, as some Orthodox Jews still consider that to be dinei nefashos.
With this logic I can prove that you are the greatest genius who ever lived!
ReplyDeleteThat ignores that R Eliyahu said he was guilty but not of what and that he should have done tshuva - how?
ReplyDeleteA dyan claiming he heard testimony is not proof of that anything happened.
In other words only if you believe all allegation are always true is his statement meaningful
Nope, I don't see how this logic would lead to such an obvious conclusion! Joking.
ReplyDeleteRav silman states it is acceptable in these cases. Are you saying that's limited to stopping the abuse, not concluding a judgement.
ReplyDeleteyes!
ReplyDeletethat is what the shoel u'meishiv said
And how about the lo tzais dino, ?
ReplyDeleteThe point being, if nobody appears at BD, or Sanhedrin, there will be absolute lawlessness.
ReplyDeleteWhich beis din?
ReplyDeleteCan I simply create a beis din with two friends and demand people testify before me?
What if one bd is dealing with a case can another take over?
It's a serious aveira isn't it?
ReplyDeleteIf you have a bd, you might need to deal with matters beyond divorces and financial disputes.
ReplyDeleteThe problem is that BD are limited in their power. In Israel they are more powerful, as they control divorces.
Theoretically, someone can ignore BD in new York or London, and continue in his ways. They have little or no power of enforcement.
not necessarily?
ReplyDeleteWhat is your point?
In any case, this is just my opinion - the whole matter of BD dealing with rodef is self contradictory - we do not need a BD to deal with a rodef, we need to take immediate action, to stop and maim or kill if necessary. Since in a modern state, the situations where a person can lawfully kill another are only in self defence, it may or may not be applicable to rodef - so teh most efficient way is to call the police. As i understand it, in Israel, the police want a lot of evidecen for these kinds of cases, and could dismiss one without sufficient evidence.
ReplyDeleteThat is why there are various NGOs to help with sexual abuse and rape. So the most effeicient way is a combination of having a private investigator or other group, NGO to help, and then go to the police.
police opened investigation into walder on boxing Day
ReplyDeletehttps://www.haaretz.co.il/news/law/.premium-1.10495416
He shoots himself the following day.
Really?!
ReplyDeleteThe police are simply to accept the results of a beis din?
You can't be serious!
I can't be serious what?
ReplyDeleteDid I say they converted the psak into judgement and sentence? Or just that they opened an investigation according to the news report?
Presumably the police were not looking into his books either!
https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/319344
ReplyDeleteHe doesn't seem to specify what the guilty verdict was about , but he is referencing other BD decisions on adultery.
Other BD had already found walder involved in adultery.
If the Eliyahu BD is not allowed to pasken against in absentia walder, then they are just restating previous piskei BD.
Or perhaps he is not giving a psak din but in the capacity of a quasi investigative body. Or the psak is on the din of rodef rather than regular BD arbitration.
In other words you are uncertain what is all the noise about?
ReplyDeleteIs it adultery with a consenting woman that happened years ago
or is it the cases of rape alleged by haaretz
or is it sexual abuse of boys and girls who came for therapy?
No, there has been a bit of misunderstanding or misinterpretation of our mutual comments, and that is what i am trying to clarify.
ReplyDeleteInitially , you said that a Dayan must not judge without both or all parties present - which is well established halacha. And this was the brunt of your criticism of the Eliyahu BD.
So my initial reading of this post was that you were minifying the charges brougth against CW. But my second reading was that actually, the BD didn't reach a psak at all, other than confirming other piskei BD on previous charges of adultery. In which case, your initial accusation (not judging without both parties present) no longer stands.
Nope you obviously missed R Eliyahu's announcement that Walder had been found guilty
ReplyDeleteMy point before was similar to that of R Aviner and others
The Sho'el umeishiv allows a beis din to gather testimony of one side - not to decide guilt but to stop future abuse
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsmxzgncXmY&t=495s
ReplyDeletehe is one of the Dayanim, is saying there are different rules for al Taamod al dam Raecha
not just shoel u meshiv
So therefore we don't care about facts just allegation?!
ReplyDeleteNo pe, they went through cross examination
ReplyDeleteI agree it should go to the police. They would have gone but W decided he can get a better deal under the earth.
ReplyDelete