It was claimed that Goren liberated the Kosel by convincing Motta Gur to violate his orders
KA said
He was part of it, and he convinced Mota Gur to take the old City - which was not part of the military plans. In terms of Jewish history, it was Rav Goren who liberated the Temple Mount, and the Kotel. Also Hevron.
The fact is that Goren merely tagged along with the troops that liberated the Kosel. While it is true that initially the plan was not to take the Old City or retake the Jewish Quarter
That change was not because of Goren
Rather as Martin Gilbert noted Eshkol was convinced by Begin and Allon because of the call by the UN for a cease fire. Page 387 Israel A History and Dyan therefore gave orders for the troops to occupy the Old City. Gur was in fact obeying orders
KA also claimed that Rackman was a pioneer in Kiruv when in fact there is no mention of this anywhere
He claims that Liebman statement that Rackman brought more people to Orthodoxy is proof when it is not clear what Liebman is claiming. KA then said maybe it was as Rabbi or Chaplain- while a totally different claim - and is still not supported by any evidence.
KA also insists that Rakeffet is following Rav Soloveitchik and not Rackman regarding annulment of marriage
Rav Soloveitchik was against the annulling of marriage while Rackman felt it was essential-Rakefet is in favor of annulment as he stated regarding Tamar Epstein - thus he could not be siding with Rav Soloveitchik but with Rackman
We will conclude by citing from a speech delivered by Rav Yosef Dov Soloveitchik to the Rabbinical Council of America, in response to Rabbi Rackman's proposal:7
36
I have to discharge a duty. Believe me, I do it with much sadness in my heart. You know I never criticize anybody; I have never attacked anybody. But today... I feel it is my duty to make the following statement....
I also was told that it was recommended that the method of afka'inhu rabanan lekiddushin mineih [to annul marriages] be introduced.... Do you expect to survive as Orthodox rabbis? Do you expect to carry on the mesorah under such circumstances? Chaos will replace Torah. I hope that those gathered here will join me in objecting to such discussion at a rabbinical convention. I cannot imagine a Republican National Convention or Democratic National Convention where a symposium would be held as to whether communism should replace democracy in the United States.
With permission, I will try to respond to each of these statements:
ReplyDelete1) R Goren/Gur
https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/234276
Dr. Shifra Michelov, researcher of Rav
Goren's life, relates how the rabbi chose to join the fighting forces in
the Six-Day War. "Rabbi Goren arrived in Gaza.As usual, he joined the fighting forces, as he did in all previous wars.His
jeep was bombed, Rabbi Goren was wounded in the head and he somehow
managed to crawl back to our forces and there heard that Jordan joined
the war and that the battles in Jerusalem had begun."
"And then he says,'Motta [Gur], wait for me!' He
rushes to Jerusalem, meets Motta Gur and, to his disappointment, hears
from him that it is not altogether clear that they are entering.'Can we squander this historic moment?', he cries.
"I
told him, 'Why are not you advancing toward the Old City?' Then he
says, 'There is an order from the government not to occupy the Old
City,' I told him, 'You have been given the opportunity to liberate
Jerusalem, the Temple Mount, and you sit and do nothing?' He
said, 'There are orders, there's nothing I can do; I'm a soldier,' and I
told him, 'It's my responsibility, come with me together, we will enter
the Old City, and if they arrest you, I will go to prison with you. It's worth being arrested and even killed for the sake of Jerusalem!'"
Ultimately the government made the decision to enter the Old City and Rabbi Goren, as usual, joined the forces.At 10:20 on June 7, the forces passed through the Lions' Gate.Rabbi Goren, in uniform, ran under fire and reached the Western Wall.Minutes
after the liberation of the Western Wall, the rabbi said, quoting
Psalms:: "We stand at your gates, O Jerusalem, and this is the city that
embodies all beauty, the joy of all the land, the capital of the
eternal State of Israel."
So the government did hesitate, which was when Goren tells Gur to break orders. But eventually the government did give orders to go ahead.
KA also claimed that Rackman was a pioneer in Kiruv when in fact there is no mention of this anywhere
ReplyDeleteHe
claims that Liebman statement that Rackman brought more people to
Orthodoxy is proof when it is not clear what Liebman is claiming. KA
then said maybe it was as Rabbi or Chaplain- while a totally different
claim - and is still not supported by any evidence.
------------------------
My claim was based on Liebman's statement.
"Charles S. Liebman (Hebrew: ישעיהו ליבמן) (New York City October 20, 1934 – September 3, 2003) was a political scientist and prolific author on Jewish life and Israel. A professor at Bar-Ilan University, he previously served on university faculties in the United States." - Wiki
Liebman stated explcitly that even many of Rackman's opponments concede that he had done more than any other individual in bringing people back to orthodoxy.
Rackman was born in 1910, so was old enough to be my grandfather. His influence was greatest in the 50s and 60s, before the modern teshuva movement. So either one of the greatest political scientists and observers of Jewish life was simply writing nonsense, or he had some basis to it.
I brougth a source, and i brought the exact quote. The claim was not mine, the claim was Liebman's - who has published prolifically .
So if you are suggesting "fake news" that is at the doorstep of the late prof Liebman, not mine.
3) KA also insists that Rakeffet is following Rav Soloveitchik and not Rackman regarding annulment of marriage
ReplyDeleteRav Soloveitchik was against the annulling of marriage while Rackman felt
it was essential-Rakefet is in favor of annulment as he stated regarding
Tamar Epstein - thus he could not be siding with Rav Soloveitchik but
with Rackman
----------------------------------
That is despite my bringing several of Rakeffet's lectures where he disabuses the Rackman-Agunah court of the 1990s. Also, you have failed to bring any explicity support for your claim that Rakeffet supports the Rackman heter/BD.
And you have not explicitly quoted what Rakeffet says about the Kamenetsky -Ng heter. All I have heard is that he attacks this blog, especially the picture and the countdown clock of RSK. he simply said that Rav Shmuel is gadol and he would therefore not missapropriate halacha. That is his assumption.
I wish to add that I do not agree with Rakeffet 100% - he made a nasty comment as well regarding your "punishment" for abusing the Gadol hador. Is that why you are understandably angry with him?
The difference is I present evidence, and if my evidence is flawed, I accept it.
ReplyDeleteEven when i bring evidence, you don't accept it and attack the source.
i am still awaiting evidence for your claims regarding Rakeffet.
Here is another lecture where he takes issue with R Rackman
https://www.yutorah.org/sidebar/lecture.cfm/942940/rabbi-dr-aaron-rakeffet-rothkoff/rabbi-rackman-s-published-writings/
You still ignore the fact that despite what he says he supported annulment which Rav Soloveitchik opposed while Rackman encouraged
ReplyDeleteUntil you provide source, link to the specific lecture, it is not a fact.
ReplyDeleteYou also support anullment of RMF ztl . The most that can be made of his statement is that he has not rejected RSk shlita, and if RSk is wrong, this error is transferred by the mechanism of emunas chachamim to r rakeffet.
Bottom line contrary to your initial claim- Goren did not liberate the Kosel nor did he persuade Gur to violate his orders
ReplyDeleteGur was following orders when he liberated it and Goren just tagged along
Indeed - during the phase where the orders were on hold, he made the suggestion to Gur to go ahead anyway.
ReplyDeleteThe orders were then given later,
but depends on whether you take a Torah view or a secular view.
The Torah says to blow hotzatzorot before/ during war to gurantee victory. R Goren was the only person to take shofar with him to war, which he used. I have read peviously that he requested or asked to research producing silver chotzatzorot.
Now you will say that is not my original argument. So what? It was my though behind the argument.
Wow! so you expect me to read your mind and ignore your words
ReplyDeleteSo yes Goren claims he tried to convince Gur to disobey orders - but Gur in fact refused
Narkiss who was Gur's commander told Goren to bring his trumpet with him according to Gilbert
Thank you, https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Israel/-WlsDwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Martin+Gilbert+shlomo+goren&pg=PT406&printsec=frontcover
ReplyDeletewhat is actually written by Sir Martin Gilbert is "Narkiss told Goren to prepare his trumpet".
He took his Sefer Torah and Shofar with him throughout the war, even dug a trench and hid to avoid Egyptian fire.
I asked an Israeli friend of mine whether the military rabbis still use shofar or trumpets when faced with conflicts - he said no, not since rav Goren. Rav Goren left the army by around 1970. Since then, both the 73 yom kippur war and 82 Lebanon wars were disasters and not clear victories.
ReplyDeletefrom his autobiography:
ReplyDelete"In order to complete this picture, let me tell you about the shofar. My shofar had been burnt on the outskirts of Gaza. Since I knew that on this day we would be liberating the Old City and reaching the Kotel, at around 4:30 in the morning I hurried to the home of my father-in-law, who had a synagogue attached to his home. “I need your synagogue’s shofar,” I told him when he opened the door to the sound of my knocking. “We are going to liberate the Kotel!” He became so emotional that he began to cry, but he climbed onto a table (the shofar was tucked away high up in a cupboard), and gave me the shofar. I took it and rushed back in the direction of Rockefeller Museum, and from there I began the climb toward the Old City."
Goren, Shlomo. With Might and Strength: An Autobiography . The Toby Press. Kindle Edition.
Also, this article about R Rackman's engagemnt with Jewish academics and intelligentsia:
ReplyDeleteRackman's
string of appointments between 1967 and 1971
spoke to his growing standing as a public figure within
Orthodoxy.
A New York Times story of February 5, 1967, reporting
on Rackman's
selection as spiritual leader of Fifth Avenue
Synagogue, referred
to him as
"one of the nation's leading rabbis."'8 More pertinently
for our
discussion, Charles Liebman, in his classic 1965 study,
"Orthodoxy in American Jewish Life," stated
the following about
Rackman:
To the extent... that the modern Orthodox have produced an
ideologist, it is probably Rabbi Emanuel Rackman, although his
position is not representative of all modern Orthodox Jews. He is
certainly the favorite target of the Orthodox right wing, notwithstanding
the private concession of at least some of its members that
he has brought more people into the Orthodox fold than any other
person.... His concern is with understanding the meaning of the
halakhic injunctions in order to find contemporary applications.
138
In the course of
his efforts he has suggested what many feel to be a
radical reinterpretation of the halakhah.19
One element of Rackman's modern Orthodox stance that
roused
the ire of Orthodox traditionalists was his emphasis on
intellectual openness. Rackman aspired to bring members of the Jewish
intelligentsia closer to Orthodox.Judaism, but felt
stymied by what he
saw as the "rigidity of most contemporary
exponents of Orthodoxy."
Jewish intellectual types, he argued, might be ready
for a "leap of
faith," but
not for a "leap to obscurantism."20 To make it clear tha
his own brand of Orthodoxy
stood at the furthest possible remove
from obscurantism, Rackman prefaced his contribution to
the 1966
Commentary symposium on "The State of Jewish Belief
All
use subject to https://about.jstor.org/terms
Emanuel Rackman: Gadfly
of Modern Orthodoxy
Thus Liebman claims that there is anonymous minority of Orthodox who think this way-
ReplyDeleteWow! - who are these people that anyone should care?
And even if true how does ii prove your claim that he was a kiruv pioneer- especially since no-one besides you makes such a claim?
Wow and that proves that Goren not Gur liberated the Kosel?!
ReplyDeleteAre you trying to say that Goren was the key factor to victory?!
ReplyDeleteAnd you are still claiming Goren convinced the army to disobey orders and liberate the Kotel?!
ReplyDeleteNo, it was the army. Same army which made disastrous errors in 1973.
ReplyDeleteIt helps. Just like 73 was a disaster
ReplyDeleteNo, he just suggested it.
ReplyDeleteTorah says that blowing the trumpet will ensure victory. Must still have some relevance today, at least if we have bitachon.
ReplyDeleteAnd even if true how does ii prove your claim that he was a kiruv pioneer- especially since no-one besides you makes such a claim?
ReplyDeleteThat is self evident.
What is your definition of kiruv? Must you go out and make random people wear tefillin, even if they might be goyim?
In which case, ohr samyeach /Aish do not do kiruv.
Aish do audiovisual programmes. Is that kiruv? Rav Goren provided kosher food, siddurim, services etc in the army. I've met people who went to hesder yeshiva, who were secular but didn't want solid army service.
So there are many forms of kiruv. You just can't accept that your enemies did it.
Wow!
ReplyDeleteSo Jews have always been involved in kiruv-thus you are sayingt he concept is irrelevant
No, at times they separated from reform, eg in Hirsch's Frankfurt.
ReplyDeleteRackman was also working with conservative or attempting to.
The point I am making is kiruv does not only mean tefillin campaigns. BTW he said that the rebbe told him he has to be like a commando in his mission, and that sometimes commandoes can even be killed in their line of duty.
Aryeh Kaplan style kiruv:
ReplyDeletehttps://haribhakt.com/the-hindu-science-of-idol-worship-is-the-greatest-discovery-of-mankind/
Rav Goren was also a General and had access to the army and political leaders. So his influence was not as minor as you may think.
ReplyDeleteNor as great as you think!
ReplyDelete