https://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/25249
(We cannot fail to note an Israeli Open Orthodox rabbi (Benny Lau) who attended a gay wedding with his well wishes, Rabbi Avi Weiss who, while rejecting Orthodox gay “marriage”, takes a very soft stance on going public on homosexuality, and Open Orthodox Rabbi Dr. Daniel Sperber, who sanctions the idea of “Orthodox” gay marriage, so long as another word, such as “partnership”, is used for it.)
These idiots are neither rabbis nor, even, Orthodox.
ReplyDeleteThis is a problem with all Orthodox groups. Gay marriage is just the OO's version of it.
ReplyDeleteConsider what OO transgresses and what it does not transgress.
There are no articles by their "poskim" redefining kashrus. They may say you should be a vegan or only eat free-range chickens but they never question the basic principles of kashrus. Odds are, Rabbi Avi Weiss has a properly kosher home.
They also don't redefine Shabbos. And frankly, if there's any taharas mishpacha trends in that community, it's for men to start going to the mikveh monthly. No one has said that women should be any less stringent about that.
So where do their differ? In ritual. Ritual has become detached from the basic practice of Judaism because it's where Judaism and secular liberalism collide. No one in the secular world cares if you keep kosher. No one cares about whether or not you keep Shabbos. No one cares if you choose not to touch your wife half the month. They might find it odd or call it limiting or old-fashioned but there's not moral opprobrium attached to it. You are not, according to the Woke Folks, a bad person for doing these things.
But ritual is different. You are a bad person if you limit the participation of women in synagogue activities. You are a bad person if you limit the rights of two men to get married. This isn't just about your quaint customs. It's a violation of Woke principles and therefore it does carry that moral opprobrium that the OO are so afraid of.
And that's why you're get things like "Orthodox Jewish weddings" where the main dish will be glatt kosher and the ritual part, excluding that it's two men, will be conducted as strictly as any genuine Orthodox wedding. It's so they can look at their secular liberal friends and say "See, we can be strictly Orthodox and also just like you!"
but your chief Feigele de Haan of the Old yishuv was a gayon, and orthodox, and buried in chelkas harabbonim,
ReplyDeleteAdd to the list: Steven/Shlomo Riskin
ReplyDeletehttps://blogs.timesofisrael.com/sorry-rabbi-riskin-and-rabbi-greenberg-homosexual-relations-are-not-permitted-by-the-torah/
In an interview (in Hebrew) that was sharply criticized even by some rabbis who generally identify with him, Rabbi Shlomo Riskin opined that the Biblical prohibition on homosexual relations only applies to one who voluntarily chooses homosexuality, but that one who considers himself wired as homosexual and feels that he can only experience intimacy with another man is exempt from the prohibition.
This is actually a line the Reformatives use - just like bestiality is condemned because it's non-consensual, so only homosexual intercourse that is non-consensual is forbidden.
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately for them, when you then suggest that this logic leads to permissible brother-sister intercourse if they both consent, they start to stutter about power dynamics and in those cases there is really no true consent.
Your comment has nothing to do with what I posted from Riskin, who wrongly exempted people who consider themselves wired as homosexual, and feel that they can only experience intimacy with another man; from the prohibition against homosexual relations.
ReplyDeleteThis article is from a year and a half ago. If men marrying men was so bad, we might expect, based on the Mesorah, that pestilence would sweep the world, and like in the time of Sodom and Gomorrah destroying objects might rain down on, say on Tel Aviv, for host LGBTetc parades.
ReplyDeleteAnd what's happened is world economies brought to their knees by covid and rockets from Gaza. But that would be presumptuous of me to draw a connection.
They are not exempted lechatchila. During bayit rishon, people were hardwired to want avodah Zara, doesn't mean it was permitted
ReplyDeleteThe fact is, thank God, those perverts are only a very tiny fractional minority in Israel. The vast majority of the people in Israel are normal heterosexuals, and God judges by the majority, who are normal decent people.
ReplyDeleteCosmetic rebranding of gay marriage, as a mere
ReplyDeletebanal “partnership”; is like putting lipstick on a pig. You can put lipstick on
a pig, but it's still a pig.
Read the haaretz article, you will see this is just a figment of Gordimer's pernicious imagination
ReplyDeleteEgel Hazahav.
ReplyDeleteGod was willing to spare Sodom and Gomorrah, if He would have found even as few as TEN righteous people there (Bereishis 18:32).
ReplyDeleteTorah thought this week’s parsha דברים appropriate for the Three Weeks
ReplyDelete“When the Lord heard your loud complaint, He was angry, He vowed” (Deuteronomy 1:34). Our loud complaining to God was completely uncalled for. This angered God.
דברים א' ל"ד
וַיִּשְׁמַע יְקֹוָק אֶת קוֹל דִּבְרֵיכֶם וַיִּקְצֹף וַיִּשָּׁבַע לֵאמֹר:
ספורנו
את קול דבריכם. קול בכיה של חנם:
העמק דבר
את קול דבריכם. שני דברים, גם הקול שנתנו ברעש ובצעקה, וזה הוסיף העדר כבודו ית', וכדכתיב בירמיה [י"ב ח'] נתנה עלי בקולה על כן שנאתיה, גם הדברים אשר לא כן, והרי זה כמו שכתוב את קול את דבריכם, והכי הרבה בתורה וע' לעיל ט"ז. ובאמת קול הבכי והצעקה
היה מזו הכת הכתוב כאן, ודברים קשים היה משתי הכתות שאמרו כי חזק הוא ממנו או נתנה ראש וגו', כמבואר בפ' שלח:
מלבי"ם ירמיהו י"ב ז'
עזבתי את ביתי. ואהיה מוכרח להחריב את בהמ"ק: ואת ידידות נפשי. לא לבד שעזבתיה, כי מסרתיה בעמי בכף אויביה, משנאתי אותה, ומבאר הטעם ששנאה תחת אשר אהבה, כי:
מלבי"ם ירמיהו י"ב ח'
היתה לי נחלתי כאריה ביער. מדמה אותה במשלו כמי שגדל חיות מדבריות לעשות אותם בני תרבות והיה לו ארי בן תרבות שהיה משעשע עמו, אבל כאשר עבר עמו דרך היער נזכר את מעמדו הקודם הפראיי ונתן בקולו על אדונו (כמ"ש בב"ק טז וסנהדרין ב. שהארי אינו בן תרבות), ור"ל שבמצרים היו במעמד הפראיי רחוקים מדת ומצות, ואני עשיתים בני תרבות ובעלי דת, ובבואם ביער היינו בין האומות שבו אל טבעם הקודם ונתנו קולם על ה' ועל נביאיו להרגם, על כן שנאתיה, ולכן נתתי ידידות נפשי בכף אויביה:
I like Malbim. God trained us as a man might train a lion (as Tarzan supposedly did). Walking in the jungle with his trained lion, the lion starts to remember his jungle instincts and roars ferociously. God freed us from Egypt and gave us the Torah. On no! Jeremiah laments once we live in galut (America) we adopt the wild/bad ways of the nations. Jeremiah is so depressing
“I have abandoned My House עזבתי את ביתי, I have disserted My possession נטשתי את נחלתי; I have given over My dearly beloved נתתי את ידדות נפשי Into the hands of her enemies בכף אויביך. My own people acted toward Me היתה לי נחלתי Like a lion in the forest כאריה ביער; She raise her voice against Me נתנה עלי בקולה; Therefore I have rejected her על כן שנאתיה.” (Jeremiah 12:7-8).
I read the Haaretz article, and even posted the link to it:
ReplyDeletehttps://www.haaretz.com/.premium-how-homosexuality-splits-the-orthodox-world-1.5383363
As far as I can see, Gordimer accurately quoted it:
"...Sperber thinks there may be a way around this. “The problem is with the word ‘marriage,’” he notes. “Perhaps they can call it something else like a ‘partnership.’”
No one is ever exempted from the prohibition against homosexual relations, not "le'chatchila", nor "b'dieved". Even if they might think of themselves, as wired as homosexual, they are never exempted from this prohibition.
ReplyDeleteHowever Stevie Riskin disagrees. He seems to think that for these kinds of people, it's permitted lechatchila.
As was posted above:
"Riskin opined (!) that the Biblical prohibition on homosexual relations only applies to one who voluntarily chooses homosexuality, but that one who considers himself wired as homosexual and feels that he can only experience intimacy with another man is exempt from the prohibition."
Thanks, I had to go through a few versions of the article to find that quote.
ReplyDeleteWhere does he say that he sanctions it? He says earlier on :
"“Many don’t like it when they’re too overt,” notes Sperber, “and when
they wear clothing that publicizes their position. These synagogues
would prefer a greater degree of discretion – they want what goes on at
home to stay at home.”"
A partnership is not an explicit status of gayness, and in that statement he is not saying that he will officiate such a same sex partnership. If you cna find a quote wher ehe explictly sanctions such behaviour, let me know.
it is the same approach that the leaders of the Aidah took towards De Haan. As long as he was not doing anything b'parhesia, they were happy to have him on their team. The problem being, that he was publishing, in a different parhesia, that is Dutch speaking in Holland.
ReplyDeleteIn those days there was no internet or satellites or cellphones. They probably heard various rumours but had no first hand accoutns of his gaiety.
I could be wrong. If Sperber is planning to allow civil partnership ceremonies for mishkav zachar partners, then that would essentially be the end of him, or any rabbi. I doubt he is so stupid.
I'm not at all confident that a majority of Israeli Jews are opposed to homosexual conduct.
ReplyDeleteMr. Riskin, the Rabbi Jesus guy, is a putz.
ReplyDeleteOH. MY. G-D.!! 🤯🤯🤯
ReplyDeleteThank G-d, is absolutely 💯percent correct!
ReplyDelete🎤🎤🎤
ReplyDeleteOh, for crying out loud!! 🤦♀️🤦♀️🤦♀️
ReplyDeleteNow they're playing word "games?!"
I don't recall any exemptions in Leviticus or anywhere else in the Torah.
ReplyDeleteG-d made His feelings about this matter crystal clear. It is a Toeavah (abomination) and absolutely 💯PERCENT FORBIDDEN ALWAYS.
So you accept that de haan had free will and was violating the Torah with his toevah behaviour ñ
ReplyDeleteWhy do keep bringing up dehaan.
ReplyDeleteDo you think he is proof that homosexuality is permitted by the Torah?!
I never mentioned tolerance or intolerance.
ReplyDeleteI merely mentioned the facts on the ground (in the bedroom), that the vast majority of the people in Israel are normal heterosexuals,
I refrain from using the p**z word.
ReplyDeleteYou're probably unaware, but it's a vulgar slang word, that is not befitting for a Yehudi to use in normal conversation.
This is a disaster of epic proportions!
ReplyDeleteHashem swore that that the Torah will never be changed.
NOWHERE does it say that we are only to keep the Torah when it is easy, convenient, and comfortable to do so.
"Adom Leamal Yulad."
(A person is born to toil.)
We are supposed to work on ourselves constantly and GROW.
THERE IS NO STASIS. A person cannot stay on the same level. He either climbs or falls.
As Rabbi Ben Zion Shafier said "This world is the gym, the next world is the spa."
We have to overcome our Yetzer Horah (EvilInclination).
He is very crafty and shrewd.
He'll talk one into anything and everything, IF ONE ALLOWS HIM TO DO SO!
Hashem made it very clear to Kayin (Cain) in Genesis that sin (the Yetzer Horah), is lurking at the door. But we can (AND MUST) master over it.
As my father always says.
A person has a very finite period of time on this world.
One cannot sweet talk or bribe Hashem on his Yom HaDin (day of judgment) -- and no one knows when that day will be.
Boruch Hashem, my parents are living mussar seforim (holy books that instruct us how to properly conduct ourselves in accordance to our beautiful and holy Torah.) They are shining examples of how high one can climb and continue climbing. May Hashem bring Moshiach today and allow us all to climb upwards and closer to Hashem forever.
Introduce me please to the Jews who are actively working to outlaw homosexulity in the State of Israel. I want to make a donation.
ReplyDeletePut your money where your mouth is.
ReplyDeletePlease let us know when you make your donation.
Rabbi behind anti-LGBT party says right and left both ‘tainted’ with ‘perverts’
https://www.timesofisrael.com/rabbi-behind-anti-lgbt-party-says-right-and-left-both-tainted-with-perverts/
The new ‘normal’? Far-right, anti-LGBT candidate set to enter Knesset
https://www.timesofisrael.com/exit-polls-show-far-right-anti-lgbt-candidate-slated-to-enter-knesset/
In context, Sperber is commenting on finding a workaround for rabbis to be able to agree to perform same-sex marriages, and his proposed "solution", is to use another word, “partnership”, for it.
ReplyDeleteIn other words, Sperber is comfortable with a rabbi officiating at a "partnership celebration", in honor of two Mishkav Zacharniks joining together, for what we ALL know is not a Chavrusa “partnership” to study Sefer Mesilas Yesharim.
By agreeing to officiate at such an event, the rabbi is offering legitimacy to their actions, and gives it the stamp of rabbinical sanction, and Sperber is fine with that. Shame on him!
Solution to... What? Does he say?
ReplyDeleteMany people do stupid things.
ReplyDeleteSotah 3a
אין אדם חוטא אלא אם כן נכנסה בו רוח שטות
Went througg both articles. Nowhere does it talk about outlawing homosexuality. Perhaps I wasn't clear in my original comment.
ReplyDeleteOutlawing homosexuality means making homosexual activity illegal. Punishable.
Initiatives like "blocking expansion of gay rights" don't reach the threshold of outlawing.
#fail
Because, you cannot have a gay-tzeddek. It's an oxymoron. I'm only bringing his case when debating with pro Satmar/nk people, who claim his tzidkut.
ReplyDeleteIf r professor Sperber is doing a whitewashing of ortho-gays, then he is also outside of the Torah , in my humble view. I will try asking him for a clarification.
Like the vast majority of people virtually anywhere.
ReplyDeleteI didn't know, so I'll keep that in mind for the future.
ReplyDeleteI took a quick glance in Merriam-Webster's dictionary, which gives the primary meaning as a stupid or foolish person. It secondarily gives the slang you're referring to.
It also identifies the origin of the word from the Yiddish puts, literally, "finery, show," probably from putsn "to clean, shine"; akin to German putzen "to adorn, clean".
In some places - including meah shearim.
ReplyDeleteThe origin is unimportant.
ReplyDeleteThe main thing is how it's perceived.
There's a commonly used vulgar equivalent in English, and just because someone uses a Yiddish word, doesn't make it any less vulgar.
When I was a teenager in yeshiva, I first heard someone referred to as a "Pei Tzaddik". I had no clue what it was, and why they couldn't say it out.
Well, today I know.
In Yiddish, if someone wants to describe someone as a stupid or foolish person, there is a choice selection of juicy words that adequately convey your sentiments. Here are some of them:
"Goilem" - גוילעם
"Narr" - נאַר
"Shoyteh" - שויטע
Tippesh" - טיפּעש
"Idyot" - אידיאט
He's working with precedent. There are lots of invented rituals in Judaism, some of them copies from non-Jewish cultures. Upsherin comes to mind.
ReplyDeleteThe thing isn't about creating a new ritual. It's whether that ritual embraces non-halakhic behaviour which is Sperber's failing here.
Is he agreeing to officiate?
ReplyDeleteOk, so jewish guy with non Jewish woman, partnership, not marriage. Would they officiate? How about non kosher restaurant - just change the names on the menu, would we then be able to go?
Read the quote from Sperber in the context of the Haaretz article.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.haaretz.com/.premium-how-homosexuality-splits-the-orthodox-world-1.5383363
Sperber is proposing a pathway for rabbis to be able to officiate at same-sex marriages. e's not addressing the other scenarios that you refer to,
ReplyDeleteI sent him a message, asking him to clarify
ReplyDeleteAnd Bnei Brak, Yerushalayim, Lakewood, Boro Park, Williamsburg, Flatbush, etc.
ReplyDeleteLet's see if he'll even bother to respond, and if he does respond, let's hear what he has to say for himself.
ReplyDeletethis is the quote that I must have missed the first time around:
ReplyDelete"As liberal as they become, Katz does not believe that Orthodox rabbis will ever agree to perform same-sex marriages, though Sperber thinks there may be a way around this. “The problem is with the word ‘marriage,’” he notes. “Perhaps they can call it something else like a ‘partnership.’” "
The article is written by a journalist, and it is not clear what question Sperber was responding to. The journalist is making it look like marriage , but above he was saying he and communities don't like people openly acting or identifying as mishkav zacharists.
So there is a stirah between his 2 statements, if you take the 2nd one as suggesting he will officiate at menuval partnerships but not m.z. weddings.
Their misdeeds don't justify further misdeeds by others.
ReplyDeleteAnd what do you expect them to do about it to satisfactorily express their intolerance of it? Whatever it is, you go first.
ReplyDeleteEmpty inbox so far. Will keep you updated
ReplyDeleteMinimally, denounce it.
ReplyDeleteUntil relatively recently sodomy was illegal even in the western world.
OH. MY. G-D.
ReplyDelete"When I was a teenager in yeshiva, I first heard someone referred to as a "Pei Tzaddik". I had no clue what it was, and why they couldn't say it out.
ReplyDeleteWell, today I know."
Myself included.
In fact, I never knew it when I was single.
It was long after I was married.
We had a very beautiful upbringing, Boruch Hashem!
🎯🎯🎯🎯🎯🎯
ReplyDelete🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆
ReplyDelete