There are ignorant people who claim they are relying on Rav Moshe Feinstein to annul a marriage because the husband has an incurable psychological issue. It is clear that not every personality order justifies such an approach. This can be seen clearly in one of the classic tshuvos where he annuls a marriage when it was discovered that the husband was a homosexual and he states that this applies only if the husband were exclusively homosexual.
Igros Moshe (E.H. 04:113): Concerning the present matter where the wife has discovered that her husband has had homosexual relations since we find that this is considered a major defect the marriage is a mistake also for the wife as I have explained in Igros Moshe (E.H. 1:79 and 1:180).. It is also reasonable that the fact that the husband is involved in homosexual relations - which are the worst possible abomination and most disgusting thing - it is a disgrace to the whole family. And surely it is extremely degrading to his wife that her husband prefers this disgusting intercourse rather than intercourse with his wife. Thus it is definitely a mistaken marriage. It is clear to us that no woman would be willing to marry such a disgusting, repulsive and debased man as this. Consequently if immediately after she was informed about this she left him - that if it is impossible for her to receive a divorce from him - that she should be permitted to remarry because of having a mistaken marriage. However if it is possible to obtain a divorce, it is necessary to try with all that is possible in order to obtain a kosher get. On the other hand, if he is not fully immersed in homosexuality - but only occasionally because of the influence of his lust - perhaps this should not be considered to be a mistaken marriage. So even though he is a complete rasha (wicked) - even for the sake of a single incident – there are those who mistakenly imagine that this is called a mistaken marriage. However if he is fully immersed in homosexuality - in that he gets more pleasure from homosexual intercourse than from relations with women – it is definitely a mistaken marriage. All of this is if she left him immediately when she found out. But if she remains with him even after being notified, then it is difficult to nullify the marriage. If his behavior is the result of foolishness, since this is something which is unnatural it is definitely a defect. Since it is from foolishness it is likely that there are other manifestations of foolishness. However in essence it is from wickedness and is repulsive - which also makes it a mistaken marriage.
what if he is a a heterosexual menuval, with other women?
ReplyDeleteIssue not addressed. Point is that he needs to have a condition that no women would consider marrying. There is no question some woman will marry someone knowing that he has had affairs with many women and might consider it desirable that he married her despite that there was so much competition
ReplyDeleteA man having extramarital affairs is not a halachic basis permitting a wife to be able to force her husband to give her a divorce.
ReplyDeleteThe question is whether it would allow annulment if the wife did not know that he was that type of person.
ReplyDeleteCan "we" (qualified podium) derive from the teshuva the parameters of what would also fall into this category? Eg , HIV/aids or even hpv which can kill the wife if he catches it in the brothels he visits?
ReplyDeleteThe definition is that no woman would marry a man if she knew he had the condition.
ReplyDeleteWho could there be a general rule? Certainly in this case, each has to be assessed by beis din.
ReplyDeleteOkay, so that begs this question: he has a history of violence against women. Now, the philandering might not be a disqualifier. Heck, she might be just as faithless to him. In this day and age with the corruption of general society, they both might have hetero and homosexual affairs while being married and be okay with it. But would any sane woman, being told her prospective husband is likely to beat her, marry such a man?
ReplyDeleteno decent/traditional Jewish woman would go into marriage expecting to get beaten, cheated on, or having a gay husband. it is the expectation when going into marriage, not post facto statistics.
ReplyDeleteRav Moshe says it is not the issue of expectations but the simple question of whether any woman would live with a man with this condition. So you posken differently!
ReplyDelete"Daas Torah Mod Kalonymus HaQatan • 3 hours ago
ReplyDeleteThe definition is that no woman would marry a man if she knew he had the condition."
So which one is it? Going into marriage, or staying once she finds out?
Not a question of me poskening, since that is a meaningless statement. I am thinking along the lines of the giur - is it what her expectations were at teh time she was getting married, or what can reasonably expected from a wife in general, after the act?
It is staying married. If she discovers something unexpected but stays anyway the marriage can not be annulled. For example if she was expecting to feel deeply in love forever and never have an argument. But stays on in the marriage anyway.
ReplyDeleteIf she expected her husband to be neat and bathe regularly. But he is a smelly slob and she stays with him there can be no anullment.
On the other hand he is psychotic, exclusively homosexual, impotent, a mumar and he concealed this, she left as soon as she learned it and the condition is incurable. An incurable personality condition, that many women could accept is not grounds for anullment.
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but if she stays with him despite being abused something fairly common. the marriage can not be annulled
ReplyDelete“What is a serious defect to annul marriage without a get?” No. Not a proper question, allow me to explain. I ask:
ReplyDeleteIf a pregnant worried woman asks a rabbi about abortion, in a case where her doctor tells her that signs are that the baby is not 100%---is the rabbi is violation of “You shall not curse the deaf, or place a stumbling block before the blind. You shall fear your God: I am the Lord.” (Leviticus 19:14) if the rabbi tells her the lenient opinions?
Follow my question? I say yes absolutely. Similarly, if an angry wife gives money to a rabbi and tells the rabbi that her husband won’t give her a get. Bad that she asks the rabbi “What is a serious defect to annul marriage without a get?”
I ask:
If the rabbi explains to the pregnant worried woman the halacha on annulments, is the rabbi in violation of “You shall not curse the deaf, or place a stumbling block before the blind. You shall fear your God: I am the Lord.” (Leviticus 19:14)? Surely, yes!
My theory. The pregnant worried woman and the angry wife are blind to what the law is. They are sorely tempted by the evil inclination. The evil inclination blinds them.
Rabbis, don’t dare encourage the pregnant worried woman to have an abortion. Rabbis, don’t dare encourage the angry wife to shout agunah and do public protests. This is the meaning of “You shall not curse the deaf, or place a stumbling block before the blind. You shall fear your God: I am the Lord.” (Leviticus 19:14).
I remember one great Rabbi a few years back, who suggested the solution to the Agunah problem is to improve our middos. It is true. But it is also , near impossible, unless we are going to achieve Moshiach.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.academia.edu/31883080/Talmud_Based_Solutions_to_the_Problem_of_the_Agunah?email_work_card=view-paper
ReplyDeleteTalmud_Based_Solutions_to_the_Problem_of_the_Agunah
expected response - " they are not well known poskim, they are secular academics".
Not so simple, especially of the husband is unrepentant.
ReplyDeleteSee the opinion of the Agudah, cited by Rema, in Even Ha'ezer (154:1).
See also Shut Chacham Tzvi (133).
I assume you did not read this academic exercise in psak. If you did please explain why you thought it was relevant?
ReplyDeleteYou think that the poskim are ignorant or have been avoiding a solution they knew would solve the problem.?
I didn't read it. It isn't psak as far as I can see..
ReplyDeletePoskim only follow the traditional system of psak, whereas academics like to find something in the Talmud and say "look at that".
Even the greatest academics , such as prof Efraim Urbach ztl, who was a Rav, are not accepted by poskim, especially hareidi ones.
When did he become "that type of person"? Before marriage or after marriage? What if the incidents only started five years (or ten years) after the wedding, rather than immediately after marriage?
ReplyDeleteWhy is she still with him? Is it possible she can't leave? He controls the bank account so she has no money. He's isolated her from her friends so there's nowhere she can go other than a shelter which she would never do because of the shame. Perhaps she's a prisoner in the home wishing desperately to leave but practically unable to.
ReplyDeleteKeep guessing. Some women stay in abusive relationships because of low self esteem. In such a case the marriage can not be annulled if she stayed in spite of abuse
ReplyDeletedoes the halacha assume she has self esteem?
ReplyDeleteThe halacha assumes free-will
ReplyDelete