Long-standing battle
for control of Ponevezh seminary erupts into violence when mainstream
faction returns after pandemic regulations lifted; two people
hospitalized, including son of yeshiva dean
People on the inside of the system know these fights and quarrels are happening in the big name yeshivas, but on the outside we are always told these are facilities full of perfect tzadikim with completely pure activities
The same Bet Hamdrash was where everyone outside of the strict Hareidi world was attacked, - YU, Dati Leumi, the Rabbanut, JCT, Rav Lichtenstein, Rav Riskin, etc. Now the Modern orthodox world is no longer a target, and instead they are fighting themselves.
Chasidim and Misnagdim have been attacking each other en mass for centuries. Chasidim have had infighting when it comes to successions for centuries. This is a feature of the system, not a glitch. Just because "official" histories erase it doesn't change that.
It is refreshing to remember the the holy words of the Netziv at the beginning of his HaEmek Davar - about how the various groups in the time prior to the 2nd Hurban were attacking those to the left of them, and calling them heretics or tzedukkim. It was like a pecking order. We are all guilty of this to some degree - when you attack R' Cardozo, when I attack Open orthodox etc.
Netziv (Introduction to Bereishis): Bereishis was called Sefer HaYoshor (the Book of the Upright) by the prophets. That is because it is about the Avos - Avraham, Yitzchok and Yaakov who were called upright by Bilaam. We need to understand why he singled them out by the title “upright” instead of other descriptions such as tzadik or chasid? Furthermore, why is Bereishis singled out with this description of “upright”? Another question is why Bilaam asked that his end should be like those who have such a description? The praise of uprightness is to reinforce G d’s judgment in destroying the Second Temple which was a generation of tzadikim and chassidim and those devoted to learning Torah - however they were not upright in the mundane world. Therefore, because of the baseless hatred in their hearts to each other they suspected that whomever they saw who did not conduct himself according to their opinion in Yiras Shamayim must be a heretic. Consequently, this led to much killing and all the evils in the world until the Temple was destroyed. Thus, there was an acknowledgement of the uprightness of G d’s judgment in that He would not tolerate tzadikim like these. Rather He wanted tzadikim who were upright in the world. Because even if the non upright tzadikim were motivated by religious consideration - such conduct destroys the world. Therefore, this was the praise of the Avos that besides being tzadikim and chassidim and lovers of G d to the ultimate degree - they were also upright. That means that they conducted themselves in relation to the peoples of the world - even the debased idol worshippers - with love and were concerned about their welfare in regards to the preservation of Creation. This we see in the pleading of Avraham for the people of Sedom - even though he had total hatred for them because of their wickedness - nevertheless he wanted them to live…
there is a pecking order People, even on here, who moan about being atatcked by Hareidi extremists, are happy to use the same language when it comes to someone less "frum" or with less "Daas Torah" than they. Rabbi cardozo, who is trying to bring Jews together, is attacked regularly, for words he uses, eg when he says perhaps we can learn something from secular Jews.
Who said that? The whole point is that while these guys are engaging in unTorah behaviour, many would consider the guy holding the cell phone to be the real apikores.
I don't wish ill of Cardozo or the OO. I don't like their positions and vigorously disagree with much of what they stand for but I don't want any harm to come to them. If I met them, I'd either try to argue respectfully or change the subject to what a lousy job my government is doing handling the pandemic. I don't hate them even though I differ from them. That's a big difference. Back in Temple times, that subtlety was lost. Recall the story of how Hillel himself was physically intimidated by Shammai's students because he wasn't offering a korban the way they thought he should.
No, if all are guilty, then all are guilty. Just like when Antifa attacked the Neonazis in that riot a few years ago and everyone was trying to say "Well if you attack Nazis you must be good" and I was saying "No, both sides can be bad. LIke the USSR vs the Nazis. You don't want either side to win.
Chazal had a system where they could only erect a fence if the majority could keep to it. That means at anytime since, a large minority cannot keep it. Plus, a majority 2000 years back is not guaranteed to last. Hareidi society is trying to get 100% of the people to go through yeshiva system (which didn't exist back then). Hence, a large number cannot even keep to the basics, not to mention the chumras which keep getting added on ( without regard to the majority). So this Darwinian system, based on r' dessler's world view, is not producing gedolim, but is alienating many thousands, and driving away secular Jews altogether.
His argumentation is not understodo or even listened too. And the articles he publishes are contain a lot of ideas, which are designed to arouse controversy. I don't agree with everything he said. He paid tribute to Louis Jacobs because Jacobs was talmid chacham muvhak of R Dessler. R Dessler's views themselves destroyed both gateshead and Ponovezh yeshivas, and Jacobs is just one manifestation of that.
Another example, the predecessor of Litzman, Menachem Porush, who in his youth made an effigy of Rav Kook on Purim (compring him to Haman). So there are many examples of my theory, where in yeshivas, one may expect to find Tzaddikim, but instead finds rashaim.
This has gone on for 2 decades now, that means 2 generations of new rabbis are entering the market, and have such bad middos.
ReplyDeletewow. I will have to send this to my Lubavitch friends.
ReplyDeleteIs this why they don't enlist in the army, so they can have internecine conflict instead?
People on the inside of the system know these fights and quarrels are happening in the big name yeshivas, but on the outside we are always told these are facilities full of perfect tzadikim with completely pure activities
ReplyDeleteThe same Bet Hamdrash was where everyone outside of the strict Hareidi world was attacked, - YU, Dati Leumi, the Rabbanut, JCT, Rav Lichtenstein, Rav Riskin, etc.
ReplyDeleteNow the Modern orthodox world is no longer a target, and instead they are fighting themselves.
In 50 years time, someone will write a book about making gedolim, and mention these incidents. His book will be banned.
ReplyDeleteA true prophet.
ReplyDeleteHistory repeats itself
ReplyDeleteR' Nosson Slifkin has a website called Zoo Torah, but seems like the zoo is at Ponovezh,.
ReplyDeleteprevious fights:
ReplyDeletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbDVrdjvnuA
and a brief history of the Yeshiva by R' Rosen
http://jeremyrosen.com/2015/02/brawl-in-ponevez.html
how odd that these scenes were probably captured by a forbidden smartphone!
ReplyDeleteChasidim and Misnagdim have been attacking each other en mass for centuries. Chasidim have had infighting when it comes to successions for centuries. This is a feature of the system, not a glitch. Just because "official" histories erase it doesn't change that.
ReplyDeletewhere there's rabbinic will, there's a halachic way...
ReplyDeleteIt is refreshing to remember the the holy words of the Netziv at the beginning of his HaEmek Davar - about how the various groups in the time prior to the 2nd Hurban were attacking those to the left of them, and calling them heretics or tzedukkim. It was like a pecking order. We are all guilty of this to some degree - when you attack R' Cardozo, when I attack Open orthodox etc.
ReplyDeleteWow if all are guilty than no one is guilty!
ReplyDeleteThis a rather bizarre approach - nobody is to be criticized?!
So now we are calling on the wisdom of Blu Greenberg - leading religious authority?!
ReplyDeleteNetziv (Introduction to Bereishis): Bereishis was called Sefer HaYoshor (the Book of the Upright) by the prophets. That is because it is about the Avos - Avraham, Yitzchok and Yaakov who were called upright by Bilaam. We need to understand why he singled them out by the title “upright” instead of other descriptions such as tzadik or chasid? Furthermore, why is Bereishis singled out with this description of “upright”? Another question is why Bilaam asked that his end should be like those who have such a description? The praise of uprightness is to reinforce G d’s judgment in destroying the Second Temple which was a generation of tzadikim and chassidim and those devoted to learning Torah - however they were not upright in the mundane world. Therefore, because of the baseless hatred in their hearts to each other they suspected that whomever they saw who did not conduct himself according to their opinion in Yiras Shamayim must be a heretic. Consequently, this led to much killing and all the evils in the world until the Temple was destroyed. Thus, there was an acknowledgement of the uprightness of G d’s judgment in that He would not tolerate tzadikim like these. Rather He wanted tzadikim who were upright in the world. Because even if the non upright tzadikim were motivated by religious consideration - such conduct destroys the world. Therefore, this was the praise of the Avos that besides being tzadikim and chassidim and lovers of G d to the ultimate degree - they were also upright. That means that they conducted themselves in relation to the peoples of the world - even the debased idol worshippers - with love and were concerned about their welfare in regards to the preservation of Creation. This we see in the pleading of Avraham for the people of Sedom - even though he had total hatred for them because of their wickedness - nevertheless he wanted them to live…
ReplyDeletethat comment is an irony, it is referring to the "heter" for smartphones, which Garnel pointed out - which regularly capture these scenes.
ReplyDeletethere is a pecking order
ReplyDeletePeople, even on here, who moan about being atatcked by Hareidi extremists, are happy to use the same language when it comes to someone less "frum" or with less "Daas Torah" than they.
Rabbi cardozo, who is trying to bring Jews together, is attacked regularly, for words he uses, eg when he says perhaps we can learn something from secular Jews.
"Because even if the non upright tzadikim were motivated by religious consideration - such conduct destroys the world."
ReplyDeleteWho said that? The whole point is that while these guys are engaging in unTorah behaviour, many would consider the guy holding the cell phone to be the real apikores.
ReplyDeleteI don't wish ill of Cardozo or the OO. I don't like their positions and vigorously disagree with much of what they stand for but I don't want any harm to come to them. If I met them, I'd either try to argue respectfully or change the subject to what a lousy job my government is doing handling the pandemic. I don't hate them even though I differ from them. That's a big difference.
ReplyDeleteBack in Temple times, that subtlety was lost. Recall the story of how Hillel himself was physically intimidated by Shammai's students because he wasn't offering a korban the way they thought he should.
No, if all are guilty, then all are guilty. Just like when Antifa attacked the Neonazis in that riot a few years ago and everyone was trying to say "Well if you attack Nazis you must be good" and I was saying "No, both sides can be bad. LIke the USSR vs the Nazis. You don't want either side to win.
ReplyDeleteBecause they're too busy learning Torah which protects the people! 8-)
ReplyDeleteIf you had been to r Cardozo s shiurim. U might see things differently
ReplyDeleteChazal had a system where they could only erect a fence if the majority could keep to it. That means at anytime since, a large minority cannot keep it. Plus, a majority 2000 years back is not guaranteed to last.
ReplyDeleteHareidi society is trying to get 100% of the people to go through yeshiva system (which didn't exist back then). Hence, a large number cannot even keep to the basics, not to mention the chumras which keep getting added on ( without regard to the majority).
So this Darwinian system, based on r' dessler's world view, is not producing gedolim, but is alienating many thousands, and driving away secular Jews altogether.
maybe not!
ReplyDeleteHis views are widely rejected
His argumentation is not understodo or even listened too. And the articles he publishes are contain a lot of ideas, which are designed to arouse controversy. I don't agree with everything he said. He paid tribute to Louis Jacobs because Jacobs was talmid chacham muvhak of R Dessler. R Dessler's views themselves destroyed both gateshead and Ponovezh yeshivas, and Jacobs is just one manifestation of that.
ReplyDeleteAnother example, the predecessor of Litzman, Menachem Porush, who in his youth made an effigy of Rav Kook on Purim (compring him to Haman).
ReplyDeleteSo there are many examples of my theory, where in yeshivas, one may expect to find Tzaddikim, but instead finds rashaim.