Here's another thing to consider. Presentation is everything. The presentation from the "give her a get!" side is designed to work. Sympathy for the chained woman. Probably she was abused (sadly, they're often right) What kind of horrible man does this? The presentation from the other side too often is "Yes, well too bad because the halakha is the halakha and we're not going to change it. Besides, you guys also use get refusal on husbands." Who do you think is going to win in the public arena?
Why You Should Not Move To The State Of Israel (V16) by Meir Satmar Kin https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sb4UNEEPZjA
This guy has been brainwashed, as part of his get problems, or was he always a nut? He gives 10 reasons not to move to Israel - one for each spy who gave a negative report!
His first is one from this blogsport, about those unlucky females being drafted.
OK, Chief Rabbi Lau tried to blackmail him to give a get, so he turns his wrath on the entire nation in Israel? What a rasha!
I know several people who have been divorced in Israel, and they remarried, got on with their lives, no imprisonment. This guy is not telling the whole story, perhaps he is like vanunu?
The Brisker Rov also said it may be necessary for Orthodox Jews living in Israel to move out to chutz laaretz if the Israeli government cracks down on Torah observant Jewry.
the woman is alwasy going to get public sympathy, none of us really know what happened inside the marriage. Even if a small community accepts the annulments route, the heavies will start mamzer alerts, as has been done here today.
One of the obituaries about Meshullam soloveitchik said that he would not lean back on a chair or have a cushioned couch, so as not to derive any pleasure in this world. Problem is, the Yerushalmi says such a person will be brought to account in the next world. But, in this world, someone who hates himself to this degree will not be capable of loving a fellow Jew. That seems to have been the case.
Yerushalmi (Kiddushin 4:12): Rav said that in the future a person will have to give a reckoning of all that he saw but didn’t eat. Rav Eleazar was concerned with gemora and used to collect money so that he could purchase all types of fruit once a year.
Sorry, my nasty conclusion is a logical one , not from the gemora.
Veahavta l'reiecha kmocha. This presumes for a normal person they will have high level of self love. If this is reversed to self flagellation, then it is natural that they will express thus hatred to others - v'sinita l'reiecha kmocha.
R David bar Hayyim makes the point that a new ideology can be corrupted over several generations. So, he argues, the Chatam sofer made the famous drush of Hadash assur min ha Torah. The schreiber next generations took this to extremes, banning even benches to sit on in Shul.
Nope! Ascetism is widely praised - contrary to your assessment Rabbeinu Bachye (Kad haKemach Kedusha): The attribute of holiness (kedusha) is a powerful and amazing attribute. A person acquires it through the attribute of purity (tahara) because that is the necessary sequence of the development of attributes as is stated by our Sages (Avoda Zara 20b), “Purity leads to holiness” In other words a person needs to protect himself from sin and lusts by avoiding even that which the Torah permits – as our Sages said, “Sanctify yourself even with that which is permitted to you.” Thus concerning eating and drinking – he should eat and drink less then what he wants – just enough to sustain his body. He should engage in sexual intercourse only for the purpose of procreation, or for his wife’s conjugal rights (onah) or to prevent sinful thoughts.
Rav Avraham ben HaRambam (HaMaspik L’Avodas HaShem) In contrast an ascetic is not concerned with this material world and therefore he has time to think how he can come closer to G-d. He is thus free from the burden and worries of the material world because he only utilizes the minimum materialism in order to become more spiritual. As we see that Yakov (Bereishis 28:20)only requested bread to eat and clothing to wear. If a person is satisfied with the minimal amount of materialism he will not find it difficult to be satisfied and content.
Rav Avraham ben HaRambam(HaMaspik L’Avodas HaShem) A person who has decided to go in the elevated path and become an ascetic is required to minimize those with whom he associates, He needs to reduce this association gradually and to break ties with all those he doesn’t absolutely need such as slaves, maid servants, servants and adult children. Afterwards he should reduce his connection with relatives until no connection except with someone he is required to associate such as his wife and young children or his elderly parents who lack the ability to earn a living. Such cases are very difficult to deal properly since if he takes care of them it will clearly interfere with his exalted lifestyle. But if abandons them, he is sinning and rejecting mitzva obligations. That is very serious and is absolutely not allowed
A nazir is called a sinner by the Talmud. Rav avraham hints at the problems which ascetism will cause. But this was 1000 years ago, when the goyim were machmir with ascetism. Today, nobody is.
ramchal was not 1000 years ago aseticism is not dead!
Mesilas Yesharim (chapter 13): Sanctify yourself with that which is permitted to you - In order to be holy you should abstain and distance yourself from sources of permitted pleasure. The intent is that this behavior serves as protective barrier from transgressing an actual prohibition. The basic idea is that anything which can possible lead to something bad – even though right now it is not doing so because it itself is not actually bad – should be avoided. If you think about this matter you will see that there are three levels. There are things which themselves are inherently prohibited. There are other things which are prohibited by the Rabbis on all Jews to protect against coming to violate the Torah prohibition. Finally there are things which every individual needs to abstain and avoid as protection from sinning.
The Kitzur is a general prohibition, some extreme ascetism is actually harmful to one's helath, and can also be sinful itself. it is a mitzvah to heal oneself - but can somebody say no, i will endure the pain, so as not to feel good? Can somebody fulfillt eh mitzvah of ve'ahavta et re'eicha kmocha, if there is no "kmocha" present? It is a sub-mitzva of this mitzva to lvoe onself, and one can not acheive this by hating oneself.
Moreh Nevuchim (3:48) They say an oath is protection for asceticism. Because women anger quickly because of their weakness of character, if oaths were in their full control it would create great distress in the home as well as disputes and disorganization. If she could prohibit a particular food which would be permitted to her husband or prohibited for the daughter but permitted for the mother – therefore control of oaths was given to the master of the house. Her husband decides the validity or necessity of her oaths.
By Rabbi Moshe ben Maimon ("Maimonides"); translated by Eliyahu Touger 1
A person might say, "Since envy, desire, [the pursuit] of honor, and the like, are a wrong path and drive a person from the world, I shall separate from them to a very great degree and move away from them to the opposite extreme." For example, he will not eat meat, nor drink wine, nor live in a pleasant home, nor wear fine clothing, but, rather, [wear] sackcloth and coarse wool and the like - just as the pagan priests do.
This, too, is a bad path and it is forbidden to walk upon it. Whoever follows this path is called a sinner [as implied by Numbers 6:11's] statement concerning a nazarite: "and he [the priest] shall make an atonement for him, for his having sinned regarding [his] soul." Our sages declared: If the nazarite who abstained only from wine requires atonement, how much more so does one who abstains from everything.
Therefore, our Sages directed man to abstain only from those things which the Torah denies him and not to forbid himself permitted things by vows and oaths [of abstention]. Thus, our Sages stated: Are not those things which the Torah has prohibited sufficient for you that you must forbid additional things to yourself?
This general statement also refers to those who fast constantly. They are not following a good path, [for] our Sages have forbidden a man to mortify himself by fasting. Of all the above, and their like, Solomon directed and said: "Do not be overly righteous and do not be overly clever; why make yourself desolate?" (Ecclesiastes 7:16).א
you are putting a spin that is clearing not expressed by Chazal or any source I have come across. The Rambam and his son favored acetism Clearly if he is denying himself pleasure for the wrong reason everyone agrees that is wrong but if doing for spiritual reasons it is great.
that is the kitzurShulchan Aruch Kitzur Shulchan Aruch (029:7): A person might say that since jealously lust and desire for honor and such things is the bad path and takes a person from the world, he will separate myself entirely from such things and go to the other extreme and will not eat meat and not drink wine and not get married and not have a nice home and not wear nice clothing – but will wear sack cloth and do other similar things – that also is a bad path which he is forbidden to go. In fact if a person follows in the path of extreme ascetism he is called a sinner. We learn this from Nazir who is required to atone for sinning against himself. Our Sages say that if a Nazir who only avoided wine needs to atone for that – one who refrains in general from pleasure – surely much atone. Therefore our Sages have commanded that a person only refrain from those things which the Torah has prohibited and he should not prohibit himself from that which is permitted by the Torah.
Rambam (De’os 03:03): A person who accustoms himself to live by the rules of medicine does not follow a proper path if his sole intention is that his entire body and limbs be healthy and that he have children who will do his work and toil for him. Rather, he should have the intent that his body be whole and strong, in order for his inner soul to be upright so that it will be able to know G-d. For it is impossible to understand and become knowledgeable in the wisdoms when one is starving or sick, or when one of his limbs pains him. Similarly, one should intend to have a son with the hope that perhaps he will be a wise and great man in Israel. Thus, whoever walks in such a path all his days will be serving G-d constantly; even in the midst of his business dealings, even during intercourse for his intent in all matters is to fulfill his needs so that his body be whole to serve G-d.
"The Rambam and his son favored acetism" "if doing for spiritual reasons it is great." Could you quote some sources in Rambam and Avraham ben HaRambam where this distinction is made and supported explicitly? (Not claiming you are wrong, but interested to see where it is located, if it is sourced with them).
Kesubos (104a) Rabbi, at the time of his passing, raised his ten fingers towards heaven and said: ‘Sovereign of the Universe, it is revealed and known to you that I have laboured in the study of the Torah with my ten fingers and that I did not enjoy any worldly benefits even with my little finger
read through the first ten pages of the Rambam's son where he talks about true prishas or internal prishas Alternatively study this Maharal Maharal (Sotah 22a): Mishna: ... an ascetic woman (isha perusha) and ascetic wounds ... destroy the world. Women are materialistic and therefore asceticism is not relevant for them i.e., to abstain from that which is permitted to her. That is because abstaining from that which is permitted is abstaining from materialism entirely and this is simply not characteristic of women since they are materialistic therefore it is not normal for her to be ascetic. If you do find a woman who is ascetic it is because she wants to be viewed as a righteous woman and thus it is for her benefit – rather than for spiritual purposes.
Meiri (Sotah 20a): The self-affliction of the ascetic - that is those acts by which they afflict themselves as an act of piety. They hit themselves in order to show that they are pious. Consequently all their acts of piety are not motivated by pure motivation as is explained in the gemora. Sotah (22a): A female ascetic destroys the world. Our Rabbis taught An unmarried woman who is obsessed with prayer, a widow who travels around a lot and a minor whose months are not completed - bring destruction upon the world. But that is no so! Because Rabbi Yochanon said we learn fear of sin from an unmarried woman who was obsessed with prayer and we learn the confidence in receiving reward from a widow travels around a lot. Fear of sin – because Rabbi Yochanon heard an unmarried woman fall on her face and pray, “G-d – You created Paradise and Hell. You created righteous and wicked. It should be Your will that men not stumble because of me.” Confidence in receiving reward from a widow – a certain widow had a synagogue in her neighborhood. However everyday she went to the yeshiva of Rabbi Yochanon to pray. He said to her, “My daughter, don’t you have a synagogue in your neighborhood?” She replied, “Rabbi don’t I get reward for the extra steps I take?” What is meant by the statement that they bring destruction to the world? That is referring to Yochani the daughter of Retibi [who was a widow who prevented childbirth in a woman by witchcraft – and then prayed for her]....
I don't have the gaavah to suggest all rabbanim have to agree with my daas qatan. I'm just trying to learn, and he resolves the apparent conflicting sources.
That is his solution of conflicting sources. Both absolute ascetism, and hedonistic menuval with Torah license are wrong. The Talmud in places criticizes the nazir, and elsewhere praises prishut. So he is balancing both opinions without rejecting.
Here's another thing to consider.
ReplyDeletePresentation is everything. The presentation from the "give her a get!" side is designed to work. Sympathy for the chained woman. Probably she was abused (sadly, they're often right) What kind of horrible man does this?
The presentation from the other side too often is "Yes, well too bad because the halakha is the halakha and we're not going to change it. Besides, you guys also use get refusal on husbands."
Who do you think is going to win in the public arena?
Why You Should Not Move To The State Of Israel (V16) by Meir Satmar Kin
ReplyDeletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sb4UNEEPZjA
This guy has been brainwashed, as part of his get problems, or was he always a nut?
He gives 10 reasons not to move to Israel - one for each spy who gave a negative report!
His first is one from this blogsport, about those unlucky females being drafted.
OK, Chief Rabbi Lau tried to blackmail him to give a get, so he turns his wrath on the entire nation in Israel? What a rasha!
I know several people who have been divorced in Israel, and they remarried, got on with their lives, no imprisonment. This guy is not telling the whole story, perhaps he is like vanunu?
ReplyDeleteThe Brisker Rov also said it may be necessary for Orthodox Jews living in Israel to move out to chutz laaretz if the Israeli government cracks down on Torah observant Jewry.
ReplyDeleteOK, that is a more reasonable argument - it is not Yeharaig, but it is simply moving elsewhere, and preserving life.
ReplyDeletefact is, he didn't, neither did his sons, and meah shearim has expanded to a few other zionist settlements.
ReplyDeletethe woman is alwasy going to get public sympathy,
ReplyDeletenone of us really know what happened inside the marriage.
Even if a small community accepts the annulments route, the heavies will start mamzer alerts, as has been done here today.
And if pigs fly we might have to shoot them out of the sky, too.
ReplyDeleteOne of the obituaries about Meshullam soloveitchik said that he would not lean back on a chair or have a cushioned couch, so as not to derive any pleasure in this world.
ReplyDeleteProblem is, the Yerushalmi says such a person will be brought to account in the next world.
But, in this world, someone who hates himself to this degree will not be capable of loving a fellow Jew. That seems to have been the case.
Yerushalmi (Kiddushin 4:12): Rav said that in the future a person will have to give a reckoning of all that he saw but didn’t eat. Rav Eleazar was concerned with gemora and used to collect money so that he could purchase all types of fruit once a year.
ReplyDeleteno mention of your nasty conclusion
Sorry, my nasty conclusion is a logical one , not from the gemora.
ReplyDeleteVeahavta l'reiecha kmocha.
This presumes for a normal person they will have high level of self love. If this is reversed to self flagellation, then it is natural that they will express thus hatred to others - v'sinita l'reiecha kmocha.
R David bar Hayyim makes the point that a new ideology can be corrupted over several generations. So, he argues, the Chatam sofer made the famous drush of Hadash assur min ha Torah. The schreiber next generations took this to extremes, banning even benches to sit on in Shul.
ReplyDeleteNot a good source. He is a very creative thinker without widespread acceptance of his ideas
ReplyDeleteNope!
ReplyDeleteAscetism is widely praised - contrary to your assessment
Rabbeinu Bachye (Kad haKemach Kedusha): The attribute of holiness (kedusha) is a powerful and amazing attribute. A person acquires it through the attribute of purity (tahara) because that is the necessary sequence of the development of attributes as is stated by our Sages (Avoda Zara 20b), “Purity leads to holiness” In other words a person needs to protect himself from sin and lusts by avoiding even that which the Torah permits – as our Sages said, “Sanctify yourself even with that which is permitted to you.” Thus concerning eating and drinking – he should eat and drink less then what he wants – just enough to sustain his body. He should engage in sexual intercourse only for the purpose of procreation, or for his wife’s conjugal rights (onah) or to prevent sinful thoughts.
Rav Avraham ben HaRambam (HaMaspik L’Avodas HaShem) In contrast an ascetic is not concerned with this material world and therefore he has time to think how he can come closer to G-d. He is thus free from the burden and worries of the material world because he only utilizes the minimum materialism in order to become more spiritual. As we see that Yakov (Bereishis 28:20)only requested bread to eat and clothing to wear. If a person is satisfied with the minimal amount of materialism he will not find it difficult to be satisfied and content.
Rav Avraham ben HaRambam(HaMaspik L’Avodas HaShem) A person who has decided to go in the elevated path and become an ascetic is required to minimize those with whom he associates, He needs to reduce this association gradually and to break ties with all those he doesn’t absolutely need such as slaves, maid servants, servants and adult children. Afterwards he should reduce his connection with relatives until no connection except with someone he is required to associate such as his wife and young children or his elderly parents who lack the ability to earn a living. Such cases are very difficult to deal properly since if he takes care of them it will clearly interfere with his exalted lifestyle. But if abandons them, he is sinning and rejecting mitzva obligations. That is very serious and is absolutely not allowed
Thats a very charitable description of him. I agree.
ReplyDeleteBut, nowadays , all shuls have seating, sometimes very comfortable.
A nazir is called a sinner by the Talmud.
ReplyDeleteRav avraham hints at the problems which ascetism will cause. But this was 1000 years ago, when the goyim were machmir with ascetism. Today, nobody is.
ramchal was not 1000 years ago aseticism is not dead!
ReplyDeleteMesilas Yesharim (chapter 13): Sanctify yourself with that which is permitted to you - In order to be holy you should abstain and distance yourself from sources of permitted pleasure. The intent is that this behavior serves as protective barrier from transgressing an actual prohibition. The basic idea is that anything which can possible lead to something bad – even though right now it is not doing so because it itself is not actually bad – should be avoided. If you think about this matter you will see that there are three levels. There are things which themselves are inherently prohibited. There are other things which are prohibited by the Rabbis on all Jews to protect against coming to violate the Torah prohibition. Finally there are things which every individual needs to abstain and avoid as protection from sinning.
https://www.google.co.th/url?sa=t&url=%68%74%74%70%3A%2F%2F%78%6E%2D%2D%31%30%30%2D%6C%64%64%39%61%2E%78%6E%2D%2D%70%31%61%69&usg=AOvVaw09cCqMLmvQGkpDOZQqbRtJ#ocRROzpUfUX3
ReplyDeleteThe Kitzur is a general prohibition, some extreme ascetism is actually harmful to one's helath, and can also be sinful itself.
ReplyDeleteit is a mitzvah to heal oneself - but can somebody say no, i will endure the pain, so as not to feel good?
Can somebody fulfillt eh mitzvah of ve'ahavta et re'eicha kmocha, if there is no "kmocha" present? It is a sub-mitzva of this mitzva to lvoe onself, and one can not acheive this by hating oneself.
source? Shulchan Aruch
ReplyDeleteMoreh Nevuchim (3:48) They say an oath is protection for asceticism. Because women anger quickly because of their weakness of character, if oaths were in their full control it would create great distress in the home as well as disputes and disorganization. If she could prohibit a particular food which would be permitted to her husband or prohibited for the daughter but permitted for the mother – therefore control of oaths was given to the master of the house. Her husband decides the validity or necessity of her oaths.
De'ot - Chapter Three
ReplyDeleteBy Rabbi Moshe ben Maimon ("Maimonides"); translated by Eliyahu Touger
1
A person might say, "Since envy, desire, [the pursuit] of honor, and
the like, are a wrong path and drive a person from the world, I shall
separate from them to a very great degree and move away from them to the
opposite extreme." For example, he will not eat meat, nor drink wine,
nor live in a pleasant home, nor wear fine clothing, but, rather, [wear]
sackcloth and coarse wool and the like - just as the pagan priests do.
This, too, is a bad path and it is forbidden to walk upon it. Whoever follows this path is called a sinner [as implied by Numbers 6:11's] statement concerning a nazarite:
"and he [the priest] shall make an atonement for him, for his having
sinned regarding [his] soul." Our sages declared: If the nazarite who
abstained only from wine requires atonement, how much more so does one
who abstains from everything.
Therefore, our Sages directed man to abstain only from those things which the Torah denies him and not to forbid himself permitted things by vows
and oaths [of abstention]. Thus, our Sages stated: Are not those things
which the Torah has prohibited sufficient for you that you must forbid
additional things to yourself?
This general statement also refers to those who fast constantly. They
are not following a good path, [for] our Sages have forbidden a man to
mortify himself by fasting. Of all the above, and their like, Solomon directed and said: "Do not be overly righteous and do not be overly clever; why make yourself desolate?" (Ecclesiastes 7:16).א
you are putting a spin that is clearing not expressed by Chazal or any source I have come across.
ReplyDeleteThe Rambam and his son favored acetism
Clearly if he is denying himself pleasure for the wrong reason everyone agrees that is wrong but if doing for spiritual reasons it is great.
that is the kitzurShulchan Aruch
ReplyDeleteKitzur Shulchan Aruch (029:7): A person might say that since jealously lust and desire for honor and such things is the bad path and takes a person from the world, he will separate myself entirely from such things and go to the other extreme and will not eat meat and not drink wine and not get married and not have a nice home and not wear nice clothing – but will wear sack cloth and do other similar things – that also is a bad path which he is forbidden to go. In fact if a person follows in the path of extreme ascetism he is called a sinner. We learn this from Nazir who is required to atone for sinning against himself. Our Sages say that if a Nazir who only avoided wine needs to atone for that – one who refrains in general from pleasure – surely much atone. Therefore our Sages have commanded that a person only refrain from those things which the Torah has prohibited and he should not prohibit himself from that which is permitted by the Torah.
Rambam (De’os 03:03): A person who accustoms himself to live by the rules of medicine does not follow a proper path if his sole intention is that his entire body and limbs be healthy and that he have children who will do his work and toil for him. Rather, he should have the intent that his body be whole and strong, in order for his inner soul to be upright so that it will be able to know G-d. For it is impossible to understand and become knowledgeable in the wisdoms when one is starving or sick, or when one of his limbs pains him. Similarly, one should intend to have a son with the hope that perhaps he will be a wise and great man in Israel. Thus, whoever walks in such a path all his days will be serving G-d constantly; even in the midst of his business dealings, even during intercourse for his intent in all matters is to fulfill his needs so that his body be whole to serve G-d.
ReplyDelete"The Rambam and his son favored acetism"
ReplyDelete"if doing for spiritual reasons it is great."
Could you quote some sources in Rambam and Avraham ben HaRambam where this distinction is made and supported explicitly? (Not claiming you are wrong, but interested to see where it is located, if it is sourced with them).
If a Gadol said it, it would be a wonderful chiddush !
ReplyDeleteKesubos (104a) Rabbi, at the time of his passing, raised his ten fingers towards heaven and said: ‘Sovereign of the Universe, it is revealed and known to you that I have laboured in the study of the Torah with my ten fingers and that I did not enjoy any worldly benefits even with my little finger
ReplyDeleteOnly his 10 fingers, which were his "tools" of his "trade" - namely Torah.
ReplyDeletehttps://audio.ohr.edu/track/id=361#
ReplyDeleteHere, Rav MIlevsky ztl discusses the entiere subject, including Mesillat Yesharim,which balances the 2 extremes
read through the first ten pages of the Rambam's son where he talks about true prishas or internal prishas
ReplyDeleteAlternatively study this Maharal
Maharal (Sotah 22a): Mishna: ... an ascetic woman (isha perusha) and ascetic wounds ... destroy the world. Women are materialistic and therefore asceticism is not relevant for them i.e., to abstain from that which is permitted to her. That is because abstaining from that which is permitted is abstaining from materialism entirely and this is simply not characteristic of women since they are materialistic therefore it is not normal for her to be ascetic. If you do find a woman who is ascetic it is because she wants to be viewed as a righteous woman and thus it is for her benefit – rather than for spiritual purposes.
Meiri (Sotah 20a): The self-affliction of the ascetic - that is those acts by which they afflict themselves as an act of piety. They hit themselves in order to show that they are pious. Consequently all their acts of piety are not motivated by pure motivation as is explained in the gemora.
Sotah (22a): A female ascetic destroys the world. Our Rabbis taught An unmarried woman who is obsessed with prayer, a widow who travels around a lot and a minor whose months are not completed - bring destruction upon the world. But that is no so! Because Rabbi Yochanon said we learn fear of sin from an unmarried woman who was obsessed with prayer and we learn the confidence in receiving reward from a widow travels around a lot. Fear of sin – because Rabbi Yochanon heard an unmarried woman fall on her face and pray, “G-d – You created Paradise and Hell. You created righteous and wicked. It should be Your will that men not stumble because of me.” Confidence in receiving reward from a widow – a certain widow had a synagogue in her neighborhood. However everyday she went to the yeshiva of Rabbi Yochanon to pray. He said to her, “My daughter, don’t you have a synagogue in your neighborhood?” She replied, “Rabbi don’t I get reward for the extra steps I take?” What is meant by the statement that they bring destruction to the world? That is referring to Yochani the daughter of Retibi [who was a widow who prevented childbirth in a woman by witchcraft – and then prayed for her]....
Sotah 22a has more examples of Prushim who are self destructive - not just women.
ReplyDeletethe recording id corrupt and keeps crashing.
ReplyDeletePlease summarize in a guest post
finally heard it all and it clearly disagrees with your original claims
ReplyDeleteBli neder
ReplyDeleteI don't have the gaavah to suggest all rabbanim have to agree with my daas qatan. I'm just trying to learn, and he resolves the apparent conflicting sources.
ReplyDeleteHe doesn't resolve anything but says it is up to the individual to do what is best for him - so how can you criticize anyone's choices?!
ReplyDeleteThat is his solution of conflicting sources. Both absolute ascetism, and hedonistic menuval with Torah license are wrong.
ReplyDeleteThe Talmud in places criticizes the nazir, and elsewhere praises prishut. So he is balancing both opinions without rejecting.
He says clearly the balance needs to be determined by the self knowledge of the individual - not an outside critic such as yourself
ReplyDeleteAre you disagreeing with him, or my rendering of the shiur?
ReplyDeleteand what is your alternative solution?