https://edition.cnn.com/2020/04/21/health/hydroxychloroquine-veterans-study/index.html
Coronavirus
patients taking hydroxychloroquine, a treatment touted by President
Trump, were no less likely to need mechanical ventilation and had higher
deaths rates compared to those who did not take the drug, according to a
study of hundreds of patients at US Veterans Health Administration
medical centers.
The study, which reviewed veterans' medical charts, was posted Tuesday on medrxiv.org,
a pre-print server, meaning it was not peer reviewed or published in a
medical journal. The research was funded by the National Institutes of
Health and the University of Virginia.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQRoo3OPy3k
ReplyDeletefake study by a bunch of Liberals working at the VA to push bill gates vaccines
ReplyDeletesorry we are falling for it. to many doctors are using it and its working
https://youtu.be/3DVathrs218
ReplyDeleteThe study in the article is literally a compilation of all the doctors in the VA system using it and what happened to the patients who got it. That's it. That's all it is. You can't just make up data wholecloth and fake these results. And any other researchers could easily fact-check it. These were the results for these patients. This showed it's NOT working in patients who received it from "too many doctors" in the VA health system.
ReplyDeleteThis is what often happens when we look beyond ANECDOTES (from whatever doctor you like on youtube) and actually look at results in patients. This is why anecdotes are not reliable to draw conclusions in medicine and could be misleading.
But keep drawing that bullseye around the arrows, Berel.
First the virus is a hoax. Then it's not a hoax but doctors are purposely killing patients with ventilators so that's why so many frum people have died. But then really it's "too many doctors" are using HCQ and Zpak with so much phenomenal success everywhere that no one even needs to go on ventilators in the first place and the whole problem is solved. But of course no data to support any of the BS claims you make. I'm sorry, but you are sick in the head, berel. It is a shame that the blog owner continues to allow you to spam misinformation here.
nope!
ReplyDeletethe flaw in the study was that the patients were all never Trumpers
who would rather die than be cured by Trump's medical solution!
“Study finds no benefit” No.
ReplyDeleteAllow me talk of the Book of Job.
“The Adversary departed from the presence of the Lord and inflicted וַיַּךְ אֶת a severe inflammation אִיּוֹב בִּשְׁחִין רָע מִכַּף on Job from the sole of his foot to the crown of his head וְעַד קָדְקֳדוֹ.” (Job 2:7)
איוב פרק ב פסוק ז
וַיֵּצֵא הַשָּׂטָן מֵאֵת פְּנֵי יְקֹוָק וַיַּךְ אֶת אִיּוֹב בִּשְׁחִין רָע מִכַּף רַגְלוֹ וְעַד קָדְקֳדוֹ:
חומת אנך איוב פרק ב
איוב בשחין רע מכף. כתב בלקוטי תורה לרבינו האר"י ז"ל איוב בשחין רע מכף רזי תורה אברם כי בעת העקידה שלא יקטרג על אברהם וימות יצחק נתן לו איוב למרק עונו לכן רזי תורה אברם כי היה תמורת אברם עכ"ל ואף על גב דאמרו בזהר הקדוש דכל מקום שנאמר ויהי היום הוא יום ראש השנה והכא בריש ענינא כתיב ויהי היום והעקידה אמרו בפרקי ר' אליעזר שהיה ביום הכפורים. יש לומר דביום ראש השנה היה גלוי וידוע לפניו יתברך ענין העקידה וכדי שלא יקטרג אז על אברהם נתן לו איוב. ואף על גב דענין זה היה כשהיה שמו אברהם אפשר דנרמז אברם דמעת שהיה שמו אברם עלה במחשבה לפניו להצילו באיוב. ויתישב הטב ענין זה במ"ש רז"ל הרבה נסיונות היו ראויים לבא על אברהם אלא שבא איוב וקבל יסורין ואינו מובן מאי שיאטיה דאיוב לקבל היסורין בעד אברהם. וגם מה שרמז רבינו האר"י ז"ל בפסוק זה איוב בשחין רע מכף ר"ת אברם שנתן איוב תמורת אברם צריך ישוב. מה ענין איוב ואיזה סרך יש לו איוב לבא תמורת אברהם. אמנם יתישב הכל במה שאמרו רבינו האר"י ז"ל והמקובלים כי תרח בא בגלגול באיוב וסבל כל יסורין שסבל לכפר עונותיו. ובתחילה אברהם אע"ה נתנסה עשר נסיונות לכפר על תרח אביו ואכתי פשו עונות תרח והנה הוא בא בגלגול איוב וסבל הוא עצמו שארית עונותיו. ובזה יובן מאמר רז"ל הנז' וגם רמז רבינו האר"י ז"ל בפסוק שלנו ואפשר לרמוז כי תיבות בשחין רע גימטריא הוא היה תרח. ולפי מה שרמז רבינו האר"י ז"ל יש לרמוז ויעקוד את יצחק בנו רזי תורה איוב. כי בזה המקטרג לא יקטרג על אברהם ויצחק ע"ה. וכתבו גורי האר"י ז"ל דאיוב לקה בשחין רע על שבא על אמתלאי נדה וי"א שבא עליה בעל כרחה ולכן היא לא לקתה בשחין והיא נתגלגלה בדינה ובא עליה שכם ולקח את כל זוהמתה בסוד ותהי נדתה עליו:
I’m reading Sam Pivnik’s Survivor, a holocaust story. Job and his wife had a holocaust: 1.ותפל שבא 2.אש אלקים 3.כשדים שמו 4.רוח גדולה
All Job and his wife’s children supposedly died in same party at house of eldest. This fits in with Pivnik’s book how Hitler attacked Pivnik’s town in Poland.
I like the midrash that Job and his wife were the reincarnations of Terah and Terah’s wife. Yes the parents of Abraham. Terah and his wife did repentance but, according to mystical teachings רזי התורה they needed reincarnation to cleanse their souls. Terah taught the world idolatry. Job taught the world about God. I wrote on this. I bring the Malbim who maintains that the children at the end in the Book of Job are the same as at the beginning. They were merely captured and later released unharmed.
This week’s parsha תזריע מצרע mentions: “When a woman has a discharge, her discharge being blood from her body, she shall remain in her impurity seven days; whoever touches her shall be unclean until evening.” (Leviticus 15:19).
See “Malbim on Job Chapter 42: The Happy Ending” by G Aranoff, The Jewish Bible Quarterly 39 (4), 251-257.
Job and his wife had a happy ending “So Job died old and contented.” (Job 42:17). May we be privileged to the full redemption speedily in our time.
The short excerpt you published explains clearly that this is, in medical jargon, very poor evidence. Observational, not peer-reviewed or put up for publication means the data is weak, at best. We must wait for the drug-control trials before deciding if is works and, more importantly, who it works for.
ReplyDelete80% of people who get infected will have little or minor symptoms. And then they will recover _ myself included (although I wasn't tested).
ReplyDeleteSo giving anything, eg honey and lemon, chicken soup etc to a majority of patients will be associated with them recovering. But they would recover anyway. I accept that chicken soup is traditionally very good.
But one story here or there is not rigorous proof or evidence.
Hcq is good for lupus , malaria, but it is less and less likely to be a cure for covid19.
Right its just a study for the consumption of the masses who readily consume anything put out by fake news
ReplyDeleteNo, I wouldn't say that. It's like this - you go to the store and you want prime rib. There's no prime rib but there's some ground beef with tomorrow as its expiry date. You want meat and aren't going to leave the store without it so you take it home and tell everyone how you're having meat for dinner.
ReplyDeleteALL of the data to date behind the hype for hydroxychloroquine was low quality evidence. Yet it is being touted as a cure by the likes of Roult and some tv doctors. If it did make such a dramatic difference to use HCQ + azithromycin, there should at least be some indication of benefit captured in a retrospective look like this. Yet there wasn't. That is actually instructive in its own way. This ain't a cure.
ReplyDeleteThe limitations of the retrospective study are mainly that it's an observational and retrospective study rather than an RCT which is badly needed. That is the same primary limitation on all studies to date which make it lower quality evidence.
The fact that this is reported as a preprint and not YET peer-reviewed isn't a reason to dismiss it. Today preprints are common, and especially in the covid19 time period where people are urgently spreading covid19 related data to the world as quickly as possible the preprint is in some ways a public service. Plenty of these preprints end up published later on through peer review which is probably ongoing currently. To say this is "not put up for publication" just isn't true and very unlikely to be the case. Later on we will see if it is published and what if any changes are included. Given that the study combed a database, I would think it should be fairly easy to factcheck and verify.
Dr. Zev Zelenko famously publicized his treatment for COVID-19, but since then, some have pointed to a study questioning the effectiveness of hydroxychloroquine for the coronavirus.
ReplyDeleteIn response, Dr. Zelenko explained as follows: “My approach is to treat patients early in the infection and not wait until they are in the hospital. All studies are done on very sick people and are designed to fail.”...
https://matzav.com/dr-zev-zelenko-responds-to-questions-about-his-covid-19-treatment/
Big Pharma doesn't like Dr. Zelenko.
He's slaughtering their potential cash cow.
True!
ReplyDeletea cow worth hundred of Billions.
Besides all the side benefits, lock downs etc. and the Ahem ...Agenda.
OK Ok Biotech, Sorry sorry sorry for offending your world view go back to your insulated protective cocoon.
ReplyDeletefact check: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/zelenko-669-coronavirus-patients/
ReplyDeleteThere is good reason why the clinical trials and clinical evidence are not replicating ZZ top's claims. He has not conducted a well designed trial, and his evidence is very flimsy. Such claims have to be put under much scrutiny - HCQ is a potentially fatal drug, and so far there is little evidence it can fight Covid 19.
"souped up flu virus by Fauci"
ReplyDeleteit is not a Flu virus, it is a different animal.
It is not anything to do with Fauci
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/coronavirus-china-bars-safety-experts-from-wuhan-lab-brbm9rwtm?
source is in Wuhan /bats in China, possible escape from the lab but not proven as yet.
I had a virus, for almost 2 months, and took many supplements that didn't seem to help much: Vit C, zinc, selenium , Elderberry extract just to name a few. towards the end of the illness, i took EpiCor, and the next day i began to feel better, and within 3 days recovered by around 90%.
ReplyDeletea) It is not clear if it was covid virus, but it may wellahve been
b) epicor was a big Immune booster in the supplements world, and has some evidence behind it.
c) It may have helped, but also it is possible that i took it at the tail end of the illness. however i woudl still recommend and use it again if I fell ill.
Snopes merely claims that Zelenko's claims are unproven in their eyes. They’re entitled to their opinion, but that doesn’t discredit Zelenko.
ReplyDeleteHe admitted that he didn't do a scientific trial, but claimed dramatic results, which I have no reason to disbelieve, and encouraged the medical community to check it out.
Zelenko argues that they didn't replicate his results, because they were working with a different type of patient pool. Apples and oranges.
He claimed that his regimen kept people from needing to be hospitalized, while the medical study was done on patients so sick, that they were hospitalized. Why didn't the medical establishment do their trial with the same type of patient pool as Zelenko did?
https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/jewish-doctor-urges-israel-to-follow-his-off-label-coronavirus-treatment-623355
ReplyDeleteI am not attacking ZZ Doc, there may be some benefit to what he is doing, but it is not even proven that he is treating people with Covid 19, and whehter their symptoms are serious or not. If they are nto serious, then there is no need to give them dangerous meds .
LOL, let me go sunbathe and imbibe vitamins to "clear out my lungs rapidly" (that doesn't happen physiologically), because cleaning out lungs rapidly is sure to prevent contracting a virus that I breathe into my nasal passage or gets exposed to my mouth!! Oh yeah!
ReplyDeleteDid you also know that exhaling clears the air out of your lungs and can be rapid? It's pretty amazing.
Berel you are full of nonsense.
"famously publicized"
ReplyDeleteFirst, all we have is his word. He didn't publish data, he didn't publish a study. He didn't RUN a study. Anyway, that is addressed in a different comment.
The main response to this is Zelenko is only famous in the frum world. It's massive confirmation bias to think others outside our circles have heard of him. He is obscure. Maybe now becoming more popularized by the Chloroquine-bros who are losing faith in HCQ+Zpak alone and have to use zinc now to redraw the bullseye around the arrows.
If Zelenko's treatment worked and kept (nearly) everyone out of the hospital, we'd have solved this entire crisis and could get back to business as usual. Big Pharma would rejoice and throw him a parade.
No one WANTS to shut down their business and devote the bulk of resources to solving an emergency health crisis just so they can restore their original business again, but that is what "Big Pharma" is doing because that's their only choice and they are in business to help people with health problems, so they have the resources to try to help. No one wants this. Everyone wants this to end.
Your assumptions are bizarre and conspiratorial. This crisis is unlikely to result in a cash cow for anyone, and even in the case that someone makes good money (a successful vaccine perhaps?) it will likely be one out of the whole bunch of companies to make that meaningful money and that's offset by the loss of sales on current existing products and meaningful delays to developing products and new and ongoing clinical trials due to the mitigation/lockdown scenario. All those who fail to develop a treatment for coronavirus (which is almost everyone who is trying), will be saddled with loss of sales on current products during this crisis AND never make a penny on a new coronavirus treatment.
Believe me when I tell you, the entire pharmaceutical industry would breathe a sigh of relief if this crisis was solved with a miracle cure TOMORROW and literally none of them came up with it.
It's funny how people adopt this mindset. Let's say Gilead's remdesivir proves to work against covid19 (it may or may not, RCTs read out soon). Do you think that Merck or Pfizer, or countless other companies within your "Big Pharma" are pleased with that any more than they would be with Zelenko Man of Mystery from Monroe solving the crisis with a cure if he had one? Pfizer and Merck don't benefit from Gilead making money. That's actually their competitor. They do benefit from society getting back to functioning again. That comes from Gilead, or Zelenko, or Regeneron, or whoever comes up with a successful treatment, and all will be happy for life to renew.
As an addendum to the comment below, Gilead has stated it will provide at least 1.5 million treatments of remdesivir for FREE if the drug works, so that cash cow is also looking a lot smaller for them than you imagine it to be. Of course it also might not work, and then it will be scrapped.
ReplyDeleteshoiteh
ReplyDeletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCgea5o3ALU
ReplyDeletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_wL9ATj13U
ReplyDeleteWell said. It's important to remember that people are dying from other diseases as a result of the chaos caused by the pandemic. People are scared to go to the doctor or hospital, cancer and other diseases are being missed. Drug production may be disrupted, as are clinical trials for new treatments. Big bucks are illusory - very few drugs in clinical trials actually see the light of day. A pertinent example is Alzheimer's, where billions have been spent on new drugs to clear beta amyloid plaques , the supposed cause of the disease, yet not a single drug has succeeded, nor a single buck made from all that investment.
ReplyDeleteMany smaller biotechnology companies go under when their lead candidates fail.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBoFdnZGbo8 m
ReplyDelete