Yesterday, Vol. 14 of Kol Zvi (Wexner Kollel Elyon of RIETS, 5773) was published at http://hebrewbooks.org/59850 , which includes an article on Kiddushei Ta'ut by R. Mordechai Willig. On p. 8, R. Willig accepts the ruling of R. Moshe Feinstein and R. Zvi Pesach Frank that mental illness in the groom constitutes grounds for kiddushei ta'ut. [R. Willig does not mention that R. Feinstein and R. Frank are challenged in this regard by R. Joseph Elijah Henkin, R. Yom Tov ha-Levi Schwarz and R. Joseph Ber Soloveitchik.] R. Willig then further reports "I heard from an expert psychiatrist that also borderline mental disturbance is included within this [ruling of R. Feinstein and R. Frank], because it can occur that he [the patient] can become psychotic, i.e. he has no grasp of reality, and this would be called an insane person without knowledge as described by Iggerot Mosheh, and this requires analysis in terms of the final verdict."
R. Willig does not identify who the anonymous expert psychiatrist who told him this is, whether it was a talmid chakham or an am ha-aretz, or whether the anonymous expert psychiatrist is even Jewish. Indeed, it seems quite strange to render so monumental a determination to the side of leniency on dinei nefashot based on one anonymous expert psychiatrist. Taking this anonymous expert psychiatrist's analysis to an extreme, every Jewish marriage could be nullified as kiddushei ta'ut, since there is always a problem with every groom, as per the Gemara, Shabbat 130a that "every ketubah has a glitch." Wasn't this the entire reason that R. Joseph Ber Soloveitchik responded so energetically to R. Emanuel Rackman in 1975?
“R. Willig accepts the ruling of R. Moshe Feinstein and R. Zvi Pesach Frank that mental illness in the groom constitutes grounds for kiddushei ta'ut.”
ReplyDeleteShabbath 130a
“It was taught, R. Simeon b. Gamaliel said: Every precept which they accepted with joy, e.g., circumcision, as it is written, (Psalms 119:162) I rejoice at thy word, as one that findeth great spoil, they still observe with joy. While every precept which they accepted with displeasure, e.g., the forbidden degrees of consanguinity, as it is written, And Moses heard the people weeping throughout their families (Numbers 11:10), [i.e.,] on account of the affairs of their families, they still perform them with strife, for there is no marriage settlement which does not contain a quarrel.”
See
“Princes have persecuted me without reason; my heart thrills at Your word. I rejoice over Your promise as one who obtains great spoil. I hate and abhor falsehood; I love Your teaching.” (Psalms 119:160-163).
Yes, we love true Torah teaching, with joy and gladness, as one who obtains great spoil. This fits in with this week’s parsha כי תבא
“All these curses shall befall you; they shall pursue you and overtake you, until you are wiped out, because you did not heed the Lord your God and keep the commandments and laws that He enjoined upon you. They shall serve as signs and proofs against you and your offspring for all time. Because you would not serve the Lord your God in joy and gladness over the abundance of everything, you shall have to serve—in hunger and thirst, naked and lacking everything—the enemies whom the Lord will let loose against you. He will put an iron yoke upon your neck until He has wiped you out.” (Deuteronomy 28:45-
Why does the psychiatrist need to be a talmid chacham, frum or even Jewish?
ReplyDeleteYou would only accept one who agrees with you anyway, so the point is moot.
Rav soloveitchik's objection to Emanuel rackman seems to be more explicitly the question of whether a chazakah of the sages is an absolute ontological truth , or if it changes with the times. One example of a chazakah that sadly we cannot find today, is that amongst yidden we do not have homosexuals.
Let's take it as given that "mental illness" is grounds to nullify the marriage. Let's agree for the moment that this is the Halacha.
ReplyDeleteNext, let's ask ourselves the question: "Where is the mental illness?"
An answer to that question might be: "Joe are you mentally ill? The illness is in the husband!"
I have a different answer. The "illness" is in the diagnosing doctor.
Allow me to explain. Say someone has a scratch. We can take a picture of that scratch. We can take a blood sample from it. We can analyze the blood sample. We can show all this evidence to a group of doctors -- the picture, the lab report, etc. -- and the doctors will coalesce around a straightforward diagnosis that indeed what appears to be a scratch is a clinically proven scratch. We have a consensus.
Try doing that with mental illness! Not likely to happen with "borderline", whatever that is. Each doctor may diagnose, but I doubt you'll get a consensus of opinions in many, if not all, cases.
Thus the idea of the illness is something the doctor has in his or her mind. The illnesd doesn't have an independent existence. There is a husband. He acts and speaks a certain way. But as far as his speech and actions being signs of illness, that's the doctor's call.
So, now, as we said above, we're assuming a husband who is diagnosed as borderline can have his marriage annulled. Is Rabbi Willig really going to put that power to annull marriages into the hands of a doctor? All it takes will be one dishonest doctor that wives can flock to and you've essentially uprooted the laws of Gittin for all practical purposes.
1) -Yom Tov ha-Levi Schwarz- he opposed everything Rav Moshe said
ReplyDelete2) When did R. Joseph Ber Soloveitchik challenge Rav Moshe on Agunot? Source please.
Joseph Orlow “All it takes will be one dishonest doctor that wives can flock to and you've essentially uprooted the laws of Gittin for all practical purposes.”
ReplyDeleteNo. A doctor, even if dishonest doctor who writes a false report on the husband---the rabbinic court must allow his testimony. Only proof that the doctor’s testimony is false---perjury---could save the victim husband from the overreaching wife. Do we know for certain that the fake/phony PhD psychology letter that Aaron is insane---is perjury? Very hard to prove perjury in a court. I’ve been trying for years in SCOTUS 18-9390 (ruling October 1, 2019 maybe).
I quote: “Princes have persecuted me without reason; my heart thrills at Your word. I rejoice over Your promise as one who obtains great spoil. I hate and abhor falsehood; I love Your teaching. I praise You seven times each day for Your just rules. Those who love Your teaching enjoy wellbeing; they encounter no adversity. I hope for Your deliverance, O Lord; I observe Your commandments. I obey Your decrees and love them greatly. I obey Your precepts and decrees; all my ways are before You.” (Psalms 119:160-168).
Let the angry wives flock to a dishonest doctor. It won’t do them any good. God hates and abhors falsehood.
תהלים פרק קיט
(קס) רֹאשׁ דְּבָרְךָ אֱמֶת וּלְעוֹלָם כָּל מִשְׁפַּט צִדְקֶךָ:
(קסא) שָׂרִים רְדָפוּנִי חִנָּם וּמִדְּבָרְךָ פָּחַד לִבִּי:
(קסב) שָׂשׂ אָנֹכִי עַל אִמְרָתֶךָ כְּמוֹצֵא שָׁלָל רָב:
(קסג) שֶׁקֶר שָׂנֵאתִי וַאֲתַעֵבָה תּוֹרָתְךָ אָהָבְתִּי:
(קסד) שֶׁבַע בַּיּוֹם הִלַּלְתִּיךָ עַל מִשְׁפְּטֵי צִדְקֶךָ:
(קסה) שָׁלוֹם רָב לְאֹהֲבֵי תוֹרָתֶךָ וְאֵין לָמוֹ מִכְשׁוֹל:
(קסו) שִׂבַּרְתִּי לִישׁוּעָתְךָ יְקֹוָק וּמִצְוֹתֶיךָ עָשִׂיתִי:
(קסז) שָׁמְרָה נַפְשִׁי עֵדֹתֶיךָ וָאֹהֲבֵם מְאֹד:
(קסח) שָׁמַרְתִּי פִקּוּדֶיךָ וְעֵדֹתֶיךָ כִּי כָל דְּרָכַי נֶגְדֶּךָ:
'Harotze leshaker yarchik eduso", that is the reason for the undisclosed Diagnoser's name. Here is how the Gerer Rabbi proved the untangible: The Leliver rabbi in Jerusalem gave an Aliya for his father from Olam haEmes (deceased) every Shabbos by Mincha. He bent over closely to listen for his birchas haTorah, answering Amen after each. When they told this to the Gerer Rebbi, he advised them to let him try giving him Hagbah and then we see!
ReplyDelete"Neisei sefer venachzeh", "tze ure'eh ma deomrei inshei beshuke". Did Mr. F. have any difficulties at his job, co-workers, general public while working for the Congressman, in his School or College years, anywhere, with anyone in the world ever, or at the Beis Din? He is still around today, and if we ask 10 Psychiatrists, will they be with the same opinion or diagnosis as the one with 'orur make ish b'seser' and Beilum shem?
Ele ponecho-umanhigecho Yisrael, with Underground Kangaroo one night stand Batei Dinim condemning Ham sandwiches in absentia as well as non-existing husbands, having Anshei Bliyaal ubnei Avlo hired gun$ rodfei $halmonim ruling bekoach hazroa with Tomás de Torquemada Inquisidor tactics 'Rachmana Litzlan', e.g. Capo de tutti capo R. Epstein with oversized cowboy hat hayoshev beser 'i sham'. Is it still a wonder why each one is blaming the other who fooled whom, he said she said. With such Racket man kind Rabbis megalim ponim baTora shelo kaHalacha, they are capable of turning the whole Universe 'Letohu uBahu' with such Sheilas Chachomim leheira 'lehatshil eishes ish leshuk' with drishas dofi vedivrei bela kivyachol of igla milsa lemafrea on dvorim shel ma bekach, going back in time, turning back the clock even to lifnei brias haolam, while marbim mamzerim beYisrael.
Gevaldt! Hoy Goy choteh!
All for the almighty Dollar, as the good book says, Vehashochad yeaver!
Have they no shame, have they no decency? Tell them both Mr. Fl... and Mrs E. to part company, uvo letzion Goel, Amen!
A relatively small group of people decide what goes into the DSM.
ReplyDeleteFot the sake of argument, what if they decided that identifying as a Jew became one of the criteria for mental illness and included that in the DSM?
what kind of argument is that? it is not an argument at all, it is pathetic
ReplyDeleteBipolar is not a hidden problem, it is a wide open behavior for the whole world to see. Wasn't anyone out there that would have filled them in? The term borderline seems somewhat like a little bit pregnant, of which she has been since her late marriage of years. Just because Lolla couldn't have always her way, sounds immature.
ReplyDeleteYou are familiar how psychiatry was used by the Soviets to control people in the Soviet Union, are you not?
ReplyDeleteSo what mental illness is hidden?
ReplyDeleteThere would most likely be some signs present at any illness. Rav Moshe did not specify which illness it was. Could be depression.
Ehud says “"Neisei sefer venachzeh", "tze ure'eh ma deomrei inshei beshuke". Did Mr. F. have any difficulties at his job, co-workers, general public while working for the Congressman, in his School or College years, anywhere, with anyone in the world ever, or at the Beis Din? He is still around today, and if we ask 10 Psychiatrists, will they be with the same opinion or diagnosis as the one with 'orur make ish b'seser' and Beilum shem?”
ReplyDeleteThanks, Ehud. I agree with you and with Joseph Orlow 100%. I like Joseph Orlow: “You are familiar how psychiatry was used by the Soviets to control people in the Soviet Union, are you not?”
Ehud, you quote:
דברים פרק כז פסוק כד
אָרוּר מַכֵּה רֵעֵהוּ בַּסָּתֶר וְאָמַר כָּל הָעָם אָמֵן:
רש"י דברים פרשת כי תבוא פרק כז פסוק כד
מכה רעהו בסתר - על לשון הרעו הוא אומר
משך חכמה דברים פרק כז פסוק כד
ארור מכה רעהו בסתר. דבגלוי יענשהו בית דין "פצע תחת פצע" וכו', אבל בסתר אם יתבעהו בבית דין יכפור בו. ואי דיהיה צריך שבועה, הלא מדין תורה כופר הכל פטור, ומפורש בכתוב דפטור.
“Cursed be he who strikes down his fellow countryman in secret.—And all the people shall say, Amen.” (Deuteronomy 27:24).
The meshech Chamah, Rabbi Meir Simcha Hacohen, says that the wicked man purposely strikes his fellow in secret because, otherwise, a court will punish him, measure for measure. See, he who strikes down his fellow countryman in secret --- he could simply swear (falsely a blatant violation of one of the 10 Commandments) his innocence in court and the court will left him off. Brining false evidence in court---the fake/phony PhD psychology letter---is similar to swearing falsely. Aaron is the father of the baby of his wife Tamar. No, Aaron never divorced Tamar. No, no bet din could legitimately nullify retroactively his marriage to Tamar.
False charges have a way of sticking and doing damage. See false charges of Comey and McCabe in the US in their attack on Trump. See https://www.wsj.com/articles/mr-horowitz-speaks-11568933134 . Mandelblit is pursuing a false charge in his attack Netanyahu in Israel.
Ehud says “"Neisei sefer venachzeh", "tze ure'eh ma deomrei inshei beshuke". Did Mr. F. have any difficulties at his job, co-workers, general public while working for the Congressman, in his School or College years, anywhere, with anyone in the world ever, or at the Beis Din? He is still around today, and if we ask 10 Psychiatrists, will they be with the same opinion or diagnosis as the one with 'orur make ish b'seser' and Beilum shem?”
ReplyDeleteThanks, Ehud. I agree with you and with Joseph Orlow 100%. I like Joseph Orlow: “You are familiar how psychiatry was used by the Soviets to control people in the Soviet Union, are you not?”
Ehud, you quote:
דברים פרק כז פסוק כד
אָרוּר מַכֵּה רֵעֵהוּ בַּסָּתֶר וְאָמַר כָּל הָעָם אָמֵן:
רש"י דברים פרשת כי תבוא פרק כז פסוק כד
מכה רעהו בסתר - על לשון הרעו הוא אומר
משך חכמה דברים פרק כז פסוק כד
ארור מכה רעהו בסתר. דבגלוי יענשהו בית דין "פצע תחת פצע" וכו', אבל בסתר אם יתבעהו בבית דין יכפור בו. ואי דיהיה צריך שבועה, הלא מדין תורה כופר הכל פטור, ומפורש בכתוב דפטור.
“Cursed be he who strikes down his fellow countryman in secret.—And all the people shall say, Amen.” (Deuteronomy 27:24).
The meshech Chamah, Rabbi Meir Simcha Hacohen, says that the wicked man purposely strikes his fellow in secret because, otherwise, a court will punish him, measure for measure. See, he who strikes down his fellow countryman in secret --- he could simply swear (falsely a blatant violation of one of the 10 Commandments) his innocence in court and the court will left him off. Brining false evidence in court---the fake/phony PhD psychology letter---is similar to swearing falsely. Aaron is the father of the baby of his wife Tamar. No, Aaron never divorced Tamar. No, no bet din could legitimately nullify retroactively his marriage to Tamar.
False charges have a way of sticking and doing damage. See false charges of Comey and McCabe in the US in their attack on Trump. See https://www.wsj.com/articles/mr-horowitz-speaks-11568933134 . Mandelblit is pursuing a false charge in his attack Netanyahu in Israel.
In any case, what has this teshuva got to do with your Epstein fetish?
ReplyDeleteOriginally, you argued that K-G have falsified evidence to make it look like they conform with Rav Moshe's psak. now you are rejecting rav Moshe outright! Who ahs bene working on you Mr Yad Moshe? is the the other side?
Like Shaul haMelech, became melancholy after learning about losing his Kingdom to David, that hasn't been there previously. Or some nervous breakdown that * has been * in the hiding waiting to be triggered. Mr F. had neither. Mrs. Ep (Lolla) complained that Mr. F did not accommodate her parental/friends visits at her will, that is neither a mental illness nor hidden. Mr. F is a well rounded person, ish matzliach, meurav im habriyos
ReplyDelete- until the fake Agunah's Squad YSV went demonstrating to be *YORED LECHAYOV* veasidin liten olov es hadin e.g. r' Bully stun gun Eps... YSV ,
- and has nothing to hide, except the so called mysterious beilum shem Psychiatrist that condemned a Ham sandwich in absentia without even talking to the Ham sandwich ever, and should lose his license over it. We must all give our support to Mr. Fr... wishing him the best for this coming New Year, should have lot's of nachas from his daughter, and kudos to Mr. Joe Orlow, more power to him!!!
And right you are both times! Wishing you and All a Ktiva vachtima Tova, with lots of Yiddish nachas from your children. And as to our Dear Mr. Friedman H'Y'V, Dom LaH' vehitchollel lo, vehu yapilem challolim challolim, Amen!.Vehoelokim yevakesh et hanirdaf!
ReplyDeleteNot talking about Mr Fr. I'm talking in general. If I was duped by a shidduch who turned out to be nuts , I'd be very angry, and would claim I've been deceived.
ReplyDeleteKalonymus Anonymus “Not talking about Mr Fr. I'm talking in general. If I was duped by a shidduch who turned out to be nuts , I'd be very angry, and would claim I've been deceived”
ReplyDeleteNo. “Epstein vs. Friedman update” is the topic We’re talking about Mr. Friedman. Please stay on the topic. Ehud is correct to say Mr. Fr. Is a well-rounded person איש מצליח מעורב עם הבריאות and to be very angry at the mysterious anonymous Psychiatrist who should get his license revoked. Troll = In Internet slang, a troll is a person who starts quarrels or upsets people on the Internet to distract and sow discord by posting inflammatory and digressive, extraneous, or off-topic messages. KA, you were not duped by a shidduch who turned out to be nuts, were you? Why are you telling us this? What’s your opinion on the fake/phony PhD psychology letter smearing Mr. Fr.? Did you know that, years ago, Mr. Fr. was physically assaulted right after his visit to his daughter when she was a baby? “Cursed be he who strikes down his fellow countryman in secret.—And all the people shall say, Amen.” (Deuteronomy 27:24). October 1, 2019 SCOTUS will rule on 18-9390 and October 7, 2019 SCOTUS will release rulings.
KA, See “These also are by the Sages: It is not right to be partial in judgment. He who says to the guilty, You are innocent, Shall be cursed by peoples, Damned by nations; But it shall go well with them who decide justly; Blessings of good things will light upon them. Giving a straightforward reply Is like giving a kiss. Put your external affairs in order, Get ready what you have in the field, Then build yourself a home. Do not be a witness against your fellow without good cause; Would you mislead with your speech?” (Proverbs 24:23-28). Bravo Ehud and Joseph Orlow.
The teshuva cited does not mention Friedman Epstein. So you are discussing the title, I'm discussing the content.
ReplyDeleteKalonymus Anonymus “The teshuva cited does not mention Friedman Epstein. So you are discussing the title, I'm discussing the content.”
ReplyDeleteNo. The content says: “R. Willig then further reports "I heard from an expert psychiatrist that also borderline mental disturbance is included within this...” You inflamed fedupwithcorruptrabbis by saying there is no reason to accept the Green December 2007 against the Green letter July 2007. Which one is real and which is forgery? In Lonna v Meir, Lonna submits a phony/fake Rabbi Green letter, the Green July 2007 letter. You’re a troll saying you don’t know that the Green July 2007 letter is a forgery.
KA you’re inflaming many here saying: “In any case, what has this teshuva got to do with your Epstein fetish? Originally, you argued that K-G have falsified evidence to make it look like they conform with Rav Moshe's psak. now you are rejecting rav Moshe outright! Who has been working on you Mr Yad Moshe? is the other side?” In Epstein vs. Friedman update the Tamar supporters are clinging to their phony/false PhD psychology letter with their talk of "I heard from an expert psychiatrist that also borderline mental disturbance is included within this...” You’re a troll saying: anyone would be angry if he were duped by a shidduch who turned out to be nuts.
I remind you that Gerald Garson fined me $5,000 on December 12, 2001. Why? See, on November 14, 2001 Susan didn’t show up and called in and asked for a month’s delay. On December 12, 2001 Gerald Garson threw Ian Anderson out of the room and made him afraid to represent me and fined me $5,000 all for no good reason. Judge Michael Ambrosio ruled, years later after evidence emerged of the crimes of Gerald Garson, that I must pay all $25,000 fines against me before he’ll allow a re-opening of my case. No one seriously expects me to pay $45,000---me in Israel barely making a living with only 45% of my pension. No one seriously thinks the Green 2007 letter is ok. No one seriously thinks the PhD psychology letter that Aron is insane is ok. No one seriously thinks that Judge Ambrosio is ok. B”H, I have a good case at SCOTUS 18-9390, follow KA?
Your personal problems are unrelated to either the title or the content, so you are the troll.
ReplyDeleteFurther, you are not addressing my question. Also in halacha you do not judge one case based on another. Epstein, kin etc are each independent cases.
Physical hidden issues, heart problems etc. other ailments, needs certain medication to stay with faculties intact, e.g. depression . Anything hidden that disturbs harmonious life that did not dawn on him, and informants lied to him. Angry, and rightfully so, therefore you date so the shidduch shouldn't turn into a fig. Nuts? If it is hard to crack, and was there from before marriage. Shu' Choshen MIshpat enumerates them.
ReplyDeleteIt isn't only dinei nefashos; it is also dealing with eishes ish and potential mamzeirus.
ReplyDeleteBring Rav Moshe's psak here. Even according to Rav Moshe, not every minor mental illness (a little depression, etc.) constitutes mekach taos.
ReplyDeleteHe doesn't disclose the diagnosis does he? In many medical problems he consulted doctors, often his son in law. Mekach taut means had you known X, you would not have done the deal.
ReplyDeletespeaking of these potential problems, it is ironic how many of you supported the kangaroo BD of Avraham Sherman, who with the wave of a hand posulled the giur of 10s of thousands of geirim, without even seeing each individual. Creating a myriad of problems of mamzerus and eishes ish on an unprecedented scale.
ReplyDeleteThose tens of thousands of Russian so-called "geirim" by Haim Druckman (who was caught signing documents that he converted" Russians in Israel on dates it was shown he was in Europe) never kept a single Shabbos and ate chazir before the mikva water was even dry. They never intended to accept the 613 mitzvos. And the Beis Din of Hagaon Harav Dayan Avrohom Sherman shlita currently ruled those false conversions were never valid in the first place.
ReplyDeleteThis position was refuted by RAv Rimon, see:
ReplyDeletehttp://traditionarchive.org/news/article.cfm?id=105840
Also, R' Sherman was disputed by the Av BD, R' Daichovsky. His (sherman's) Psak was in his own makeshift BD, becasue he was dismissed from his position at the Rabbanut.
"HaGaon Harav Dayan Avrohom Sherman shlit"a" as you refer to him, has pcitures of both Rav Kook and the Chazon Ish on his wall. Do you still think he is a Gaon and Tzaddik?
It is very difficult to posul another BD, as Rav Rimon demonstrates.
Druckman made 1 or 2 clerical errors, in the thousands of cases he presided over. Is that not possible to happen to anybody?
" never kept a single Shabbos and ate chazir before the mikva water was even dry."
Funny, since a) neither you nor Sherman could possibly have monitored 10-20000 individuals to see what they did over the years. Sherman did this all by remote viewing - ie he knew nothing and was in violation of halacha.
b) One of the converts was hareidi and shomer halacha and davened by Rav Shternbuch's shul. Rav Shternbuch held him to be a goy and not to be called up to the Torah. Why, and on what grounds? Becasue of the allegation that the covnerts did not intend to keep mitzvot! Non of this was witnessed by any of these people. Not by Rav Sherman, not by rav Shternbuch, not by tropper (although he had another way of converting, by cavorting!).
A point worth remembering:
ReplyDeleteDovid Eidensohn • 6 years ago
See the book on Reb Elchonon published by Artscroll pages 30 and 267. In
page 30 we see that Reb Elchonon asked about Rav Kook when he became
very ill. The exact words are in page 30 "during Rabbi Kook's terminal
illness in 1935 Reb Elchonon showed deep concern and inquired, with
trepidation, about the state of Rabbi Kook's health - in his letters
addressed to his brother, Rabbi Eliyahu Zadok Wasserman in Jerusalem."
If, as you write, Reb Elchonon held that Rav Kook was a rosho gomur,
באיבוד רשעים רנה.
"R. Amar rejected R. Sherman’s attempt: Pithei Teshuva rejects the application of the Shevut Ya’akov’s pesak, and R. Akiva Eger (Gilyon haShulhan Arukh) wrote that only one who joins yoshevei keranot (loiterers)
ReplyDeleteis permitted to say “I do not know” for the purpose of uncovering a
truer verdict. Finally, R. Amar stated that the dayyan can only say “I do
not know” when his opinion is not public knowledge; however, once he
has unequivocally stated his opinion, and written dozens of pages on the
matter, he cannot make the claim “I do not know.” The conversion was therefore accepted according to the ruling of R. Deichovsky and R. Ben Shalom"
1. Rav Moshe's heter only applies to pre-existing condition. Otherwise, it's not a mekach taut. Any such "expert psychiatrist" has to verify when the condition began. And if it began before the marriage, and the wife knew, or should have known, then she knowingly agreed to the condition, and can't bring it up now. Even if she slept with him one night, expecting it to clear up, she can't claim it later.
ReplyDelete1B. In the E-F case, the wife knew about the condition before the marriage, but tjiught as long as he takes his meds, he's OK. When she decided to divorce him against his will, she, a highly qualified nurse, changed her mind. That flies in the face of sleeping one night.
2. RYBS disagreed vehemently with Rav Moshe's heter of R and C rabbis performing weddings, with RYBS requiring a get in ALL such cases. As do almost all rabbonim, litvish and all others. (However, relying on this heter of RMF is very convenient, so it's been adopted, despite the eishet ish issues involved.)
Nice. Does F have borderline personality disorder?
ReplyDeleteHow do you know what she knew and didn't? Bpd usually develops in late teens.
What if she believed that the meds would control it, like statins control cholesterol? A nurse know how to administer meds, but not what causes disease and how to diagnose or make a prognosis.
ReplyDelete"R. Aharon Lichtenstein shlit”a is not necessarily a supporter of the methods of the Conversion Beit Din, but he does believe their work is important and necessary. He intimated that R. Sherman’s comments about R. Drukman is a transgression of Torah prohibitions relating to
ReplyDeletebein adam la-havero, which disqualifies him from testifying or serving as a dayyan"
"On the other hand, R. Elyashiv takes another approach in his comment
ReplyDeleteregarding R. Shlomo Goren’s famous “Brother and Sister Ruling” (Chief
Rabbinate 5733), in which R. Goren alleviated the status of mamzer from
two siblings. Their mother married a man while halakhically she was still
married to another man, who was a convert. R. Goren claimed that since
the first husband did not adhere to the rulings of the Sages, his conversion
was invalid. R. Elyashiv remarked that since today Jewish customs are different than what they once were, criteria for conversion should also be different: “Today there is reason to revisit the Jewish customs which determine
the criteria for conversion, since this has changed. If we see that a convert
acts like the Jews among whom he resides, attending synagogue on Shabbat
and Yom Tov, buying kosher meat, avoiding work on Shabbat, etc. – this is
sufficient to presume he is a convert, even if he transgresses one detail from
the words of the Sages.” This opinion leads to stringency in certain cases,
but also demonstrates that the issue is not clear-cut"
If what you are saying is true, and the content of this post is implying something like that, then K-G have a leg to stand on. The only problem would be whether she knew or knew enough to accept it or not.
ReplyDeleteSo a lot of the vitriol against K is misguided. Also, why can't he extend the Halacha of Rav Moshe even further?
RYBS disagreed vehemently with Rav Moshe's heter of R and C rabbis performing weddings, with RYBS requiring a get in ALL such cases
ReplyDeleteAgreed!!!! In fact to show the extent of agreement, RYBS required a get in the case of a "Reform Conversion" followed by a Reform wedding. Not willing to mistareph possibility the woman is not Jewish together with RMFs idea
ov
Look once one accepts RMFs psak everything goes, which has happened. Remember RAL stating -heard on YU Torah, that if RMFs heter were made by anyone else it would be laughed out.
ReplyDeleteFirstly, it is buyer be aware, she should have known and have done due dilligent research, especially if she is a highly qualified nurse, more so if and whether Bpd is an issue here altogether, 'uman dechar shmei'. If you have two Psychiatrists differing in opinions, it is not a clear cut and defined 'mum' while it has to be similar to 'Kulei alma moide' or most (ubedomeh Igros). The conditions are that it must pre-exist before marriage, difficult to live with that others cannot bear such to live in harmony, protested immediately as soon as she became aware.
ReplyDeleteExcuses excuses and more lame excuses, she thought it might go away..., she packed up rofl loads and loads of baggages to leave for three (3) whole months (hmmm... aka? immediately ?).
In TRUTH, on her pro and con draft she did like him, he did love her, someone must have done a machsheifa job on her, and Finally she claimed the -Tell all- Freudian slip aka fraudian slip that
* she can do better * as the real reason for her leaving
of which is somewhat like 'shema nosno eineho beachar'. That's kind of a little bit too late to start from *Adam*, no pun intended. She should have done research for Mr. prince Charming before closing the Shidduch.
As for the Psychiatrists credibility, and as far as the Law is concerned, he should lose his license if he ever had one and if he even ever exists. Why is he a secret, Huh? Why is he hiding? What is he afraid of?
For Summary:
Halacha wise she has no prayer, and those heter meah ra bonim that are matir eishes ish lashuk bematir assurim bekuf nun taamim venoisen taam lifgam, have No legs to stand on, velo motzu yedeihem veragleihem b'Beis haMidrash know or should have known about her wishful thinking, * that she can do better *, veasidin liten olov es hadin. The Beis Din haGadol sheBeyurashalyim, Gedolei uPoskei haDor from all the continents of the world protested, and asked from us to protest louder and even more *Chizru bachem*, are still all up in arms. Their psak has been 'Teitze mize umize', till death must they depart, and if she ever gets pregnant, havlad yihye mamzer. Probably the reason why she doesn't.
Is this the *better that she claimed* ? Oy veavoy! Umeh hoyo lonu?
For the malachei chabolo, shofchei domim, umakeh re'ehu baseser Goon Squads of the fake Agunah Inc., pigei bnei odom, marin bishin, rodfei Damim (tartei mashma) Ubetza and anshei roim vachatoim L'H' meod, anshei mirmo, that beat up Husbands, Fathers in front of their children, Onu tfila sheheim vesholchehem vechol yotzei chalotzehem, yehi schorom mishalem, lo yechtzu yemeihem. Amem!
Buyer beware -- he's a Harvard educated lawyer. Who has a very prestigious job in the US Congress.
ReplyDeleteHardly a candidate for any mental illness
Again, as I said -- if he had the "illness" at time of wedding, it's not a mekach taut. If he adopted the illness later, plenty of counterarguments. Per RMF
Typo -- 20 thousand, 200 thousand. (Though I doubt that many anyway.)
ReplyDeleteThere were other problems with the conversions and the wedding.
ReplyDeleteSee Rav Goren's choveret.
She can do better? That's a fake argument
ReplyDeleteSo the claim is not credible. The psak by Rav willig does not refer to this case.
ReplyDeleteThis is nothing but a Ham sandwich in absentia, with no ham and no sandwich, no ailment and no Doctor, with shtei Ta'alumos of 'He'elem dovor belo yodin', bebchinat eno yodea she'eno yodea. ROFL, he said she said with neither a he nor a she anywhere to be found! My heart bleeds for Aron, along with all the disenfranchised Fathers and their children , and whose doesn't. Velo yeoseh ken libnei Yisrael!
ReplyDeleteWho said 200K?
ReplyDeleteDid Sherman meet 20,000 people and check each of them in 6 weeks?
He could actually be a zaken mamre, as he refused to accept the majority of the bd he was sitting on. Then he set up his own kangaroo bd to oppose the rabbanut. So his psak is doubly worthless.
It is not on the list to be eligible for a Divorce. She T. completely forgot about her true evaluation enumerated on her pro con list at the time she requested a Divorce, revealing the liar that she was. That's my point. My explanation is that a Machsheifa has been doing a job on her, since he didn't want to accommodate visits to her.
ReplyDeleteJust to shed some light, beina lebein atzma, she wrote the true reason why she wanted to redo her marriage over again thinking that she can score higher the second time around. Halacha wise it has no bearing, it only signifies that she lied to get her way out of the current marriage. In other words, she was caught with her hands in the cookie jar.
ReplyDeleteyes you are simply asking
ReplyDeletewhy cant he abrogate the Torah?
Why is that? Where is it written that chiddush ended with Rav Moshe? I'm pretty sure it's not in the end of mishnah sotah.
ReplyDeletethere are zero poskim today with Rav Moshe's status
ReplyDeleteOK, good point, I withdraw from this discussion,
ReplyDeletethanks.
true, but that has always been the case with yeridot hador
ReplyDeleteAnd that is why you need a BD godol; bechochmo ubeminyan. You can't just conveniently piggyback on Giants shoulders rising above him. As the good bok says in end of Soteh, kinei sofrim tisrach, vechutspei yasgei.
ReplyDeleteThat's for removing gezeiros, according to Rambam. Raavad disagrees.
ReplyDeleteGzeiros she'ein rov tzibur yecholim la'amod bo doesn't need such. Heter meah Rabonim is not a gzeirah, neither is having two wives.
ReplyDeleteBTW, R' Moshe was a Godol haDor and a Posek haDor dedicated dealing with Halacha worldwide, and issue at hand of father and son K's were not into dealings with BD, let alone betiv Gittin veKidushin, velo yehe eisek imohem. Then came along Rabbi NG, and they both ping ponged around with each other and walla, a K. Taut was born. When NG was approached to retract, he quoted if so, then it is not in effect. And so it goes, scandal chasing fiasco, round and round it goes, and money talks.
KOL KOREI
ReplyDelete* BEYESER SE'ES, UVYESER OZ * in ASSERES Y. TSHUVA
People tend to forget that this fictitious borderline so called mental illness was clearly born after the wedding, and only after the unsuccessful custody agreement negotiations at the BD of Rabbi Feldman, and only after the makot retzach on Tisha Ba'av where glasses went flying in trying to bash Aron's head. Prior to that, everything about Aron's mental illness was peachy keen and no issues were aroused of being * UINFIT * to give a GET, by neither of the presidng BD Rabbis nor any other so called * SHE IS FREE * aka rofl 'she is Mutar', Rabbis!
* Hayitochen *? Huh?
With the same token, did any Judge deem Aron unfit for custody?
How convenient, if it didn't fly this way we can fabricate and pull a rabbit from the hat another way, just blink with the eye like Jeannie and make a fast 180. Not even H. Houdini was able to pull such a fast one off the cuff.
Therefore, all these alleged 'Tainos' were born only after all the tricks and treats of the trade have been exhausted, which is well after the marriage and Wallah, an illness was born! 'Havi Rayah', they even brought in an expert Witness (A yahr Eidus) to this mysterious illness, a Psychiatrist in absentia condemning a patient in absentia lol with a rofl ailment in absentia In such case, R' Moshe veKulei alma modeh that it is not *uBedomeh* (see igros), a basic Yesod in Halacha.
It is borur kashemesh that all these so called ra bonim in this classic *Emperor has no clothes* saga is nothing but a fiasco, veIglei milsa lemafrea that Tou bidvar mishneh, ubidvar Halocho, ubidvar Chok uMishpat, umgalei ponim baTorah shelo kehalocho in trying to free T aka Lolla E (Fr) at any cost. No - she is NOT FREE!!! And she is not an Agunah, She is Fake, Fraud, and 'Fony'. She can pick up her Get at any time at Rabbi Feldman's BD. Till then, she is an Eishes ish lechol hadeos, far from *FREE* and must DEPART immediately! If she bears a child, haVlad yihye Mamzer!!! Amen
Being in the midst of Aseres yemei Tshuva,Yemei haRachmim veHaslichos before Yom haDin, Rabonei uGeonei tevel, and Klall Yisroel ask the pair to Depart, beyeser SEES uvYesser OZ, chizru bachem. Veyafeh sha'a achas kodm!
OK, so you are saying there is no such condition present, and that is it phoney. The post is bringing R' Willig's teshuva, which apparently does not refer to the case under discussion on here.
ReplyDeleteMy point it not to accuse Mr E. of having such a condition. my point is that real BPD is a serious personality disorder, as is Bipolar, and most reasonable people would feel duped if a person had been diagnosed with it, and they were not informed, hence mekach taut.
Absolutely - like she had already married the goy in a Church; like she had eloped with him, like there was no evidence of an actual conversion, and it is very suspicious they suddenly decided to covnert form Xtianity to Judaism in one year; like he was forced/bribed to convert to Judaism, so that would invalidate it anyways. Like he couldn't comlpete simple sentences like the Shema.
ReplyDeleteAgreed! Most people would not want to live with a BPD aka Bipolar personality and is indeed considered a M. Taut. No one declared Mr A.F. of such.
ReplyDeleteHaving said that:
If you take the Fifth Shulchan Aruch you would immediately realize that all accusations are fraud and Phony. There never was such an illness ever mentioned by anyone till things got out of hand when she didn't agree with custody. How come her supporting Rabbis didn't bring up the fact that A.F. is not capable of giving a GET since he is not shafui bedaas. It was only after that she got into a deadlock when this HETER aka MUTAR sprung up. Furthermore, on her pro con list, mental disorder was never an issue. Everything in and around the Psychiatrist is a secret, not complying openly to the rules and regulations of the land. Which woman is familiar with the intricacies of having to protest and leave immediately upon discovery of illness, therefore she lied that she did take such steps of packing up to rofl for three long months. Not even Jaqueline Kennedy had that much baggage. She therefore was coached to say so. Hakol shkarim, I don't believe a word she says, neither do any of the Gedoilei Uposkei haDor! She needs a Get Lekatchila, ve'ein podenu ve'ein matzilenu, veHAKDBH matzilenu miyadam.
Yes, of course with the provided conditions that she protested and left immediately. Otherwise, we say 'sovro vekiblah umochloh lo". Even if she claims that she thought with medications it might go away, buyer beware upholds, and should have asked around with due dilligence if it is so. Especially, if she is a highly qualified nurse and knows exactly whom she needs to ask, having all the medical advice at her hand and fingertips. She therefore, duped herself. In addition, since we have a 'sovro vekibla', what she claims that she immediately started packing for three months, according to the fifth Shulchan Aruch, Hilchos Shkorim uRemaot Siman Alef, Seif Alef: ==> vR' Yehuda hoyo nosen bahem simanim: IF Lolla's nose grows in length (kaTAMAR Yifrach) and becomes red like Pinocchio's: it is a Blunt lie " ...she thought with medications it might go away", then 'Aha'! why the packing? Hmmmm....? Huh...? VeSimna Milsa hi, kedomrinan beParshas Soteh, "Tzovso beten - velanpil yerech"... uParshas Korach, beMateh Aharon, "veHineh Porach mateh".
ReplyDeleteThe answer my friend, is...{{{ (((like dust in the wind))) }}}... = botel umvutal ke'afra dea'rah, kivan shehigid eino chozer umagid. Any Talmid chacham or Dayan can see through 'bitvias eina' 'ubitvias kolo' as a 'din merumeh', and she only was coached to say so!!! Al ken, Teitze mizu uMizu and till death must they depart!