Had a long talk yesterday with a rabbi who does a lot of of marriage counselling He said one of the biggest problems he deals with is the lack of awareness that women have different sexual needs than men
He repeated the well known claim that men have a great physical need for sex while women are primarily focused on being loved i.e emotion.
I challenged him on this saying there are no Torah sources for this claim.
He responded rather weakly in my opinion with two sources.
1. Rav Wolbe says the husband should sit on the bed after sex(couldn't find it)
2. Rambam says not to be drunk or angry during sex.
Does anyone know of better more explicit sources.
The sources I have seen explicitly emphasize the need of the wife to satisfy physical sexual needs of the husband i.e., moredes or shibud
the above research shows that while women have greater physical lust than men as the result of physical stimuli - they apparently are not aware of it or deny its existence. this fits with the following psak of ..IGROS MOSHE
שו"ת אגרות משה אבן העזר חלק ג סימן כח
ובדבר מה שחדשו האחרונים שהביא הפ"ת סימן ע"ו סק"ג בשם מעיל צדקה שיש לת"ח בזה"ז לקיים עונה שתים בשבת ובבאור הלכה סימן ר"מ הביא כן גם מהחכ"א בשם צואת ר"י מפראג וכתר"ה כותב שכן הורו גם גאוני זמננו, הנה גם אני אומר כן, ואני מוסיף דלפ"מ שכתבתי שעיקר העונה הוא מה שהאשה משתוקקת ומתאוה, וכיון שכתב הפ"ת בשם ספר מעיל צדקה דהוא משום פריצת הדור וקנאת ירך חברתה הרי בא מזה תשוקה ותאוה ליותר מפעם אחת שלכן נמצא שהוא מעיקר העונה ואף שלא הכיר בעלה בזה יש לתלות שהוא מצד הבושה וגודל הצניעות דהרי בשביל זה קבעו הזמנים כדכתבתי לעיל ולכן שפיר הורו דיש ליעץ וגם לחייב שתי פעמים בשבת. והנני ידידו מוקירו מאד, משה פיינשטיין
Sexual matters were apparently viewed differently in the old pre Victorian days
NEDARIM 20B Imma Shalom2 was asked: Why are thy children so exceedingly beautiful? She replied: [Because] he [my husband] ‘converses’ (HAS SEXUAL RELATIONS RAN )with me neither at the beginning nor at the end of the night, but [only] at midnight; and when he ‘converses’, he uncovers a handbreadth and covers a hand breadth, and is as though he were compelled by a demon. And when I asked him, What is the reason for this [for choosing midnight], he replied, So that I may not think of another woman,1 lest my children be as bastards.2 — There is no difficulty: this refers to conjugal matters;3 the other refers to other matters.
BERACHOS 62A. It has been taught: R. Akiba said: Once I went in after R. Joshua to a privy, and I learnt from him three things. I learnt that one does not sit east and west but north and south; I learnt that one evacuates not standing but sitting; and I learnt that it is proper to wipe with the left hand and not with the right. Said Ben Azzai to him: Did you dare to take such liberties with your master? He replied: It was a matter of Torah, and I required to learn. It has been taught: Ben ‘Azzai said: Once I went in after R. Akiba to a privy, and I learnt from him three things. I learnt that one does not evacuate east and west but north and south. I also learnt that one evacuates sitting and not standing. I also learnt it is proper to wipe with the left hand and not with the right. Said R. Judah to him: Did you dare to take such liberties with your master? — He replied: It was a matter of Torah, and I required to learn. R. Kahana once went in and hid under Rab's bed. He heard him chatting [with his wife] and joking and doing what he required. He said to him: One would think that Abba's mouth had never sipped the dish before! He said to him: Kahana, are you here? Go out, because it is rude.1 He replied: It is a matter of Torah, and I require to learn.
R. JOSHUA SAYS: A WOMAN PREFERS etc. What does he intend? — He means that a woman prefers one kab and sensuality with it to nine kab with continence.
רש"י מסכת סוטה דף כא עמוד ב
רוצה אשה בקב ותיפלות - חפיצה ליזון במזונות מועטין ויהא תיפלותה מצוי לה בתשמיש מט' קבין ופרישות לפרוש מן התיפלות לפיכך אין טוב שתלמוד תורה.
there is the gemara that the woman prefers sexual satisfaction over wealth..
ReplyDeletetrue but that just reinforces the point that men and women are similar
ReplyDeleteOh, you want sources that support his claim? Maybe Christianity has some.
ReplyDeletei agree
ReplyDeleteHere are a few min HaTorah, min haneviim umin haksuvim.
ReplyDelete"Vehadam yoda es Chava ishto", it is only logical to say that the reason it is called 'Yedia', since she is remembered, aka acknowledge and being aware of her presence, thinking of her and loving her. When you fall in love you cannot help but 'thinking' of her constantly, it is going together as horse and buggy. Only after eating from the Eitz *HaDaas* were they aware of being attracted and aorused to love and desire, hence the name 'Hadaas'. "VaH' pokad es Sara" also an expression of 'remembered'. When women fard up, smell up put on nice attractive clothing, like Naomi instructed Ruth, is to be noticed through the various senses, in order to be thought of and remembered, complemented of being pretty and 'Loved' and YES, they want to 'HEAR IT' too if you know what's good for you. They will ask you many times throughout the day 'Do you love me?' for reinforcement as in Fiddler on the roof, rofl (emotion). Hashem put It in their nature being so. In Hilchos foreplay, there is a whole host of input chibuk venishuk that goes there along, of before and after (emotion), as the Talmud states to be meshadel bidvarim and not be Dores keAri (hit n' run wham b.. t.y.m.) See Shir haShirim, "tachas hatpauach orrarticha" (apple tree), they used mirrors for the mizbeach because the nashim tzidkoniyos took mirrors into the fields in Mitzrayim viewing themselves together with their husbands while asking them , who is prettier, thereby bringing forth Tzivos Hashem. Possibly the expression of Adam's Apple (Pri haGan) since this is all linked together. By Yaakov and Rochel, "Vayhi be'einov keyamim achodim beahavoso oisoh", it is the constant thought of her that did the trick.
Vatomer Leah, hapa'am yiloveni ishi, that is because she craved to be loved and being seen together with her husband, since Rachel was a big competition to her.
When Elkana asked Chana, "Velameh yera levavech? Halo anochi tov lach meassara banim", was to console her that he *loves her*, and that is more than a mouthful for a woman to hear. Not only do they want to be loved but acknowledged as well by knowing and remembering her while also saying so. Furthermore, "Ki Yefateh ish" is Pitui bidvarim, a very powerful tool that women in nature respond to. See Chamor ben Shchem, "Vaye'ehav... vaydaber al lev hana'aro". All these expressions, actions, acknowledgements, vesha'ar shemos hanirdofim are rooted in the word *Yedia*, as to be loved and that makes the world go round. That is as explicit as it gets, lest it is toveah befeh. Veze kol hatorah kula al regel achas. Bedok vetishkach
are you claiming these show women experience sexuality differently than man or that there are rules (norms) hat she must express it differently?
ReplyDeleteI keep on not having a Post button after responding in the reply link, I therefore post it here.
ReplyDeleteI am reinforcing that women focus on being loved emotionally, along with Torah sources., as opposed to men having a physical need. If that is what is meant by women experiencing differently, then I am on target. As for etiquette, they are not supposed to demand physical love verbally, or tovea befeh. If I did not make myself clear, then you can ask. Thank you.
"while women are primarily focused on *being loved* i.e emotion."
I challenged him on this saying there are no Torah sources for this claim.
Why not ask women?
ReplyDeleteLama li kra? Svara hu!
ReplyDeleteWhatever experiencing might mean, for what it's worth, they for sure are primarily focused on being loved i.e emotion. And to that I brought along support. What they experience outside of emotion, i.e. physically I neither experienced nor claim to know.
ReplyDeleteI'm no expert, but there are differences in women's approach. The halacha does say a woman can divorce her hubby if she is not getting onah, which is physical satisfaction. Hence halacha presumes that women have and want entitlement.
ReplyDeleteREAD THE PSYCHOLOGY TODAY ARTICLE = THE RESEARCHER FOUND THAT WOMEN EITHER ARE UNAWARE OF WHEN THEY ARE AROUSED AND BY WHAT OR THEY TRY AND CONCEAL THEIR AWARENESS
ReplyDeleteSEE THE TSHUVAH I JUST Added TO POST
ReplyDeletePLEASE BE MORE EXPLICIT
ReplyDeleteHIT THE REFRESH BUTTON ON YOUR BROWSER AND MAYBE TRY DIFFERENT BROWSER
ReplyDeleteIt's a svara that's it's simple nature that women tend to be more emotional than men. You don't need a Pasuk for that. Pok chazi, just need to look and see.
ReplyDeleteNOIT IS NOT IT IS A CULTURAL NORM S THE THE PSYCHOLOGY TODAY RESEARCH SHOWS
ReplyDeleteThe Yisod of the Mitzvas Onah. It's a Mitzva to satisfy her needs and to make her happy. Is there a Mitzva on her for these things?
ReplyDeletePHYSICALNEEDS
ReplyDeleteWHERE DOES IT SAY EMOTIONAL NEEDS?
ReplyDeleteתלמוד בבלי מסכת פסחים דף עב עמוד ב
והאמר רבא: חייב אדם לשמח אשתו בדבר מצוה!
That same article states that when women were promised anonymity (i.e. free of judgment etc) they showed to be very aware of their behaviors and desires. So it still makes more sense to go to the source - women, which the study described in Psychology today did.
ReplyDeleteI had problems evacuating while sitting, so I learned the Chinese way, which is not sitting and not standing.
ReplyDeleteA Rabbi I know was staying at his very frum relatives, and he was complaining to me afterwards, that they made hism sleep N-S with his wife - however, thsi could not be fulfilled since, the door was South, and you cannot have your feet pointing tot he door. So he then had to sleep somewhere between N-S and East-West...
ReplyDeleteYou probably mean the Turkish way (squatting bela'az) with no overhead strap hangers to hold on unto, if you remember the Ottoman Turkish batei shimush of meah shearim shtiblach in the days of Lopka, Tzemach, Kohanim, The rabonim villen mich hargenen, around the corner of Fayvish's one of a kind fruit store. Indeed the chinese have a very difficult time evacuating, veineihem shel hatarmodiim meidin al kach. Look at how their eyes are lol squinting all the time like someone having atzirot and a makshe leiled which brings them to tachtoniyos (painful meridon), as it says veal yidchok es atzmo yoser miday, if you get my drift. In the sifrei segulos they recommend plums, plum juice, lebeniya. Stay away from chinese rice, Boxer aka chinese bread, sabras or 'Kactus' not the real name (an oxymoron name) so you can finish like a modern human gentleman being fully evoluted. Vechi ma inyan shmitta etzel har sinai, how did you fall into this topic anyway?
ReplyDeleteI have heard saying from the grapevine that they don't really know what they want. Although from Shana rishona it seems that naki yihye lebeiso and not be preoccupied with any distraction, just give his undivided attention to his newlywed married wife. For yom tov, he should buy her bigdei tzivonim, jewelry. Rofl, on second thought all they want is shlosho devarim, kessef, kessef veod kessef, shopping because they don't have any clothes to wear. Chava, em kol choy was the first to complain, all she had was a fig leaf, ve'ein hakotz masbia et ha'ari. Other than that, they are G-d's gift to mankind. Voesse lo ezer kenegdo, zocho - motzo, lo zocho - moitzi matzo.
ReplyDeleteShalom Anna, as a speaker of your humankind, and as krayna deigarta lehevei prevanka, what is it that women want? Pretty please, kindly clue us in
In addition, I have composed several interesting replies, all swallowed by a BOLA'AN like in Bnei Brak, Korach veAdoso, black hole bela'az, nowhere to be found, vechaval.
ReplyDeleteTorah thought on parshat מטות
ReplyDeleteMy theory
“But if her husband does annul them on the day he finds out, then nothing that has crossed her lips shall stand, whether vows or self-imposed obligations. Her husband has annulled them, and the Lord will forgive her. Every vow and every sworn obligation of self-denial may be upheld by her husband or annulled by her husband.” (Numbers 30:13-14).
במדבר פרק ל פסוק יג
וְאִם הָפֵר יָפֵר אֹתָם אִישָׁהּ בְּיוֹם שָׁמְעוֹ כָּל מוֹצָא שְׂפָתֶיהָ לִנְדָרֶיהָ וּלְאִסַּר נַפְשָׁהּ לֹא יָקוּם אִישָׁהּ הֲפֵרָם וַיקֹוָק יִסְלַח לָהּ
במדבר פרק ל פסוק יד
כָּל נֵדֶר וְכָל שְׁבֻעַת אִסָּר לְעַנֹּת נָפֶשׁ אִישָׁהּ יְקִימֶנּוּ וְאִישָׁהּ יְפֵרֶנּוּ
רש"י במדבר פרשת מטות פרק ל פסוק יד
כל נדר וכל שבועת אסר וגו' - לפי שאמר שהבעל מפר, יכול כל נדרים במשמע, תלמוד לומר לענות נפש, אינו מפר אלא נדרי ענוי נפשה בלבד. והם מפורשים במסכת נדרים (דף עט א):
Nedarim 79
“Mishnah. Now these are the vows [including שבועות oaths] which he [the husband] can annul: conditions that involve self-denial [אסר לענת נפש]. [e.g.,]. if I bathe, or, if I do not bathe, if I adorn myself, or, if I do not adorn myself.”
תלמוד בבלי מסכת נדרים דף עט עמוד א
ואלו נדרים שהוא מפר, דברים שיש בהן ענוי נפש: אם ארחץ ואם לא ארחץ, אם אתקשט ואם לא אתקשט;
I ask, why would she vow to stop bathing or adorning herself”? She’s an ascetic.
Ascetic = characterized by or suggesting the practice of severe self-discipline and abstention from all forms of indulgence, typically for religious reasons. "an ascetic life of prayer, fasting, and manual labor" synonyms: austere, self-denying, abstinent, abstemious, nonindulgent, self-disciplined, frugal, simple, rigorous, strict, severe, hair-shirt, spartan, monastic, monkish, monklike,
My theory is that man has power to cancel vows of the woman where vows are an attack on him and on the way he wants to live.
Sotah 20a:
“R. Joshua says: a woman prefers one kab [metaphorical for a scanty livelihood] and sexual indulgence to nine kab [luxurious style of living] and continence. he used to say, a foolish pietist חסיד שוטה, a cunning rogue רשע ערום, a female pharisee ואשה פרושה, and the plague of pharisees ומכות פרושין bring destruction upon the world.”
Rabbi Joshua attacks the foolish pietist חסיד שוטה, a cunning rogue רשע ערום, a female ascetic ואשה פרושה, and the plague of hedonists and ascetics ומכות פרושין.
These vows she makes are of all four that bring destruction to the world: foolish pietist, cunning rogue, אישה פרושה, and מכת פרושים. Of course men, certainly, never should make such vows. She has an easy way to get him to cancel his vows: tease him and then deny him sex....
questionn still iremains - are woman focused on emotion while men on physicality - seems to be that distinction is wrong
ReplyDeleteIt's in the gemara!
ReplyDeleteyou provided no proof just self serving interpretations which were not convincing
ReplyDeleteYes to both. Women spend and invest lots of time to be attractive, adorning themselves, add scents, pretty clothes, mannerisms in the way they walk (psioseho naos), emotionally expressive, giving and kindness (kidmi eschem balechem) etc. in order to be noticed (emotion). R' Moshe's quote from Talmud 'Vekinas yerech bechavarta', as well as 'a woman would pursue to be attractive till the grave' all reflect the need for emotional experience and response. They tend to look in your eyes for feedback too find your twinkle if you are pleased with their presence. All these are subliminal messages for being noticed, acknowledged, complemented and receive affection stirring their *emotion*, and that is the target and that is the key, how they do differ in their experience, as opposed to men. They like to be spoken softly with feelings, 'Ko *somar* lebeis Yaakov vesageid leYisroel, umechabdo yoser migufo. As far as rules are concerned, she cannot be verbally explicit and be tovea befeh, just in their manner of being attractive and clothing . Emotionally charged atmosphere such as sensuality and romance is their aphrodisiac.
ReplyDeleteI had not seen the added portion of DT. I have seen pictures of seating toilets in archaelogical findings in Jerusalem using leaves for swipes, and a tray containing sand of which they had no clue for it's purpose. Same with public toilets in Rome, all seatings only. Squatting is in many Mideast countries of which only constrains the intestines making it more difficult to evacuate.
ReplyDeleteMy explanation for the purpose of the sand in the clay tray was for in case of slippage or tearing of the leaves in order to clean their hands, so as not to wipe and smear it on the wall like you find in many modern day stalls.
that is not proof of emotional needs
ReplyDeleteשולחן ערוך אורח חיים סימן ר"מ
ReplyDeleteסעיף י. אם היה לו כעס עמה, אסור לשמש עד שיפייסנה; ויכול לספר עמה קודם תשמיש, כדי לרצותה
סעיף יג. אכסנאי אסור לשמש; ואם יחדו לו ולאשתו בית, מותר ובלבד שלא יישן בטליתו של בעה"ב
סעיף יז. מטה שישן בה עם אשתו, צריך שתהא ראשה ומרגלותיה זה לצפון וזה לדרום
Why does one have to be at the complete exclusion of the other? Why can't women be more focused emotionally while still caring about physical aspects of intimacy? Maybe women need both? If I personally wanted to make any generalization, I would study the source.
ReplyDeleteHow about " Ayeh Sarah ishtecho", Rashi - kedei lechavevo al Baalah, indicating or acknowledging her emotional need to be loved, as the Rabbi stated.
ReplyDeleteI like the aggadic statements of chazal. In cases of human nature, psychology etc are they views gained by the insight of the sages, or is there a claim that they are from Sinai. ?
ReplyDeleteכתב ה"חתם סופר" זי"ע בצוואתו: ולא תאמרו נשתנו העתים, כי יש לנו אב זקן יתברך שמו, לא נשתנה, ולא ישתנה
ReplyDeleteWRONG TRANSLATION = THE ISSUE RASHI MENTIONS IS TO MAKE HER MORE DESIRABLE TO ABRAHAM SEE KESUBOS 17A
ReplyDeleteOur Rabbis taught: How does one dance31 before the bride? Beth Shammai say:The bride as she is.1 And Beth Hillel say: ‘Beautiful and graceful bride’!2 Beth Shammai said to Beth Hillel: If she was lame or blind, does one say of her: ‘Beautiful and graceful bride’? Whereas the Torah3 said, ‘Keep thee far from a false matter.’4 Said Beth Hillel to Beth Shammai: According to your words,5 if one has made a bad purchase in the market, should one praise it6 in his eyes or depreciate it?7 Surely,8 one should praise it in his eyes. Therefore,9 the Sages said: Always should the disposition of man be pleasant with people. — When R. Dimi came,10 he said: Thus they sing before the bride in the West:11 no powder12 and no paint13 and no waving14 [of the hair], and still a graceful gazelle.
Simchah is an emotional need, no?
ReplyDeletebut men have the same need
ReplyDeleteThe question was a source that a woman has emotional needs. I provided this. Not sure of your point.
ReplyDeleteTHAT WAS NOT THE ISSUE - IT WAS THE IDEA THAT WOMAN ARE FOCUSED ON EMOTION WHILE MEN ARE DIFFERENT AND ARE FOCUSED ON THE PHYSICAL
ReplyDeleteYou asked where does it say emotional needs?
ReplyDeleteI would reply you do not find any obligation on the women to provide simcha to the man. There are only obligations on the women to the husband in this area of life given by chazal. Its all about the husband giving to the wife.
The wife must appear nice, but that is physical for the husband.
The gemoroh extorts husbands to be sensitive to their wives. They cry more. So it was already cultural in the time of the gemoroh at least.
ReplyDeleteThat's their way asking for love, an emotional need. Why else are they going through all that trouble. They are not supposed to be more explicit than that.
ReplyDeletegemora says that was a punishment not natural expression of needs
ReplyDeletethat is a gross misreading of the rashi you cited
ReplyDeleteI stand corrected, was actually hesitant whether it reflects a need of Sarah the Malachim invoked.
ReplyDeletethanks for the acknowledgement
ReplyDeleteThe farding/ or the clothing? Please elaborate
ReplyDeleteKosnas or seems likely, but that can suffice with any shmatte covering, no need for attractive clothing.
Vayishan vayikach: Rashi says, kedei shelo yireh...vetisbazeh olov - not to be repulsive and should be acceptable and rather attractive.
As an example we realize by Yehuda and Tamar, that all it was to satisfy a physical need that he sought out, once quenched, he moved on. Derech shel mi lachzor etzel mi reflects the same, it is an inborn instinct that Hashem designed so that the world go on, no romance need to take place to precipitate.
Ve'el ishech teshukosech is an emotional need, that is feeling in the heart and very spiritual = emotional. A woman's attraction to man starts by being noticed, given attention, displaying interest, leshadel bidvorim thereby stirring *emotions*, feelings, then comes the cravings and only to that and only then does she respond. In nature, you must give her time to catch up until all this is taking place. Otherwise she would be looking out on the streets like the instincts in men and be all worked up with the same pace.
Do you often remove comments that 'schlog you up'? Hardly a fair debater.
ReplyDeleteNO BUT DISQUS SOMETIMES TRASHES THEM
ReplyDelete