jpost.
In a statement to The Jewish Week, Yeshivat Chovevei Torah student Daniel Atwood, 27, wrote: “Four years ago I came out as gay during my first year at Yeshivat Chovevei Torah Rabbinical School, and it was decided that I would receive semicha [ordination] as their first openly gay student. After four years of study and my completing almost all of the program’s requirements, YCT decided not to give me semicha, news delivered to me only a few weeks ago, three months before my graduation, without any prior conversation on the matter.”
Atwood became engaged in the fall and is living with his partner.
We really don't know why the ordination was denied.
ReplyDeleteFrom the article, a student falling short on keeping the Torah YCT-style can be denied ordination. For example, not keeping Kosher presumably could be the basis to deny ordination.
Or...maybe some major donor pulled some strings. That wouldn't surprise me.
Logically, YCT is all over the map. Here is quote from Rabbi Dov Linzer at the end of the article:
========
"On a communal level, we should be very wary of assuming that we know what goes on behind closed doors. It also is none of our business. We do not presume to know, or believe it our business to know, which family is or is not keeping the laws of niddah [ritual purity], and to judge them accordingly, and this should be no different.”
==========
Think about it. Rabbi Linzer just opened the door to intermarriage. After all, if a Jew marries a non-Jew, why should we "presume" that they violate any Halacha? Maybe they go into their home and lock themselves off in separate areas.
You are trying to make them conservative, even though they are clearly avoiding ordaining the gay feigeley, but cannto openly say it since they would be sued and arrested by the liberal politically correct fascists.
ReplyDeleteThey are WAY over the roof, when it comes to matters of homosexuality.
ReplyDeletehttp://notorthodox.blogspot.com/p/acceptance-of-homosexuality.html
Lol, the jpost article is talking about the fegele in your link. It's him they refused to ordain. Contrast that to dehaan.
ReplyDeleteYes, I know that it's the same feigele.
ReplyDeleteHowever my point is, that you think that this is a one off problem that they now have in dealing with this PR disaster, when this link shows that it it's really something that they've tacitly been approving of all along.
well, whatever, it's not anything I am connected with
ReplyDeleteThe younger generation of MO are more politically correct than my generation was, so they go along with all this equality for mishkav zachar nonsense.
I don't have any problem with anyone being modern, as long as they keep the entire Torah. Expressing approval for Toeivah is very far from the ways of the Torah. So they have the M (odern) but not the O (rthodox).
ReplyDelete“Liberal Orthodox Yeshiva Says It Will Not Ordain Gay Student” Bravo!
ReplyDelete“Do not lie with a male as one lies with a woman; it is an abhorrence. Do not have carnal relations with any beast and defile yourself thereby; and let no woman lend herself to a beast to mate with it; it is perversion. Do not defile yourselves in any of those ways, for it is by such that the nations that I am casting out before you defiled themselves. Thus the land became defiled; and I called it to account for its iniquity, and the land spewed out its inhabitants. But you must keep My laws and My rules, and you must not do any of those abhorrent things, neither the citizen nor the stranger who resides among you; for all those abhorrent things were done by the people who were in the land before you, and the land became defiled. So let not the land spew you out for defiling it, as it spewed out the nation that came before you. All who do any of those abhorrent things—such persons shall be cut off from their people. You shall keep My charge not to engage in any of the abhorrent practices that were carried on before you, and you shall not defile yourselves through them: I the Lord am your God.” (Leviticus 18: 22-30)
טור אבן העזר הלכות אישות סימן כ
נשים המסוללות זו בזו פי' מתחברות זו בזו דרך תשמיש אסור וזה מעשה ארץ מצרים שהוזהרנו עליו שנאמר כמעשה ארץ מצרים אשר ישבתם בה לא תעשו ואמרו חכמים ז"ל מה היו עושים איש נושא איש ואשה נושאת אשה ואשה נשאת לשני אנשים.
According to our Sages the “all those abhorrent things were done by the people who were in the land before you, and the land became defiled. So let not the land spew you out for defiling it,” All those abhorrent things include; 1) a man marrying a man 2) a woman marrying a woman and 3) a woman marrying two men. In Israel I don’t see these abhorrent things. I also don’t see whores walking around looking for customers.
דברים פרק כג פסוק יח
לֹא תִהְיֶה קְדֵשָׁה מִבְּנוֹת יִשְׂרָאֵל וְלֹא יִהְיֶה קָדֵשׁ מִבְּנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל
I am not talking about rabbis, but some regular folk. there was a problem in Uk about a year ago, when R' Dwek made some speech trying to do kiruv to gays, and it just aroused a lot of violent hatred from a couple of extreme hareidi people, although again, it was based on money. A.B's brother wanted teh job that Dwek has, but it went to Dwek. So this was a perfect excuse to attack Dwek, to cover the negios that AB has in the case.
ReplyDeleteAs i have said many times, it is a big toevah. B'H I do not understand the toevah, but i don't think it can be changed so easily. But it does seem that this article is showing that they denied this man semicha because of his inclinations - it is just absurd to have an openly homosexual orthodox rav.
dehaan was a sincere Baal teshuvah accepted by the gedolim of his time and buried in the rabbonim quarter on Har Hazesim of course the zionists (like yourself )tried to besmirch his good name all lies ! to cover up his murder by Kooks faction of loose zionists and the Zionists Rabble
ReplyDeleteYes it is. Good that they didn't give a gay semicha.
ReplyDeleteI don't want to get sidetracked into talking about Dweck.
ReplyDeleteThe problem with this feigleh, was that the school was prepared to give him semicha DESPITE his inclinations, which they've allegedly known about for YEARS.
https://www.jta.org/2019/04/05/united-states/leaders-of-liberal-orthodox-yeshiva-stand-by-decision-to-deny-ordination-to-gay-student
“He came out to us in the end of his first year, and we were fully prepared to give him semicha, until certain circumstances arose over a few months ago,” Linzer told JTA.
He was writing gay Eros literature throughout his Eidah years. Thus a hypocrite. Not sincere when he admits to picking up gay Arab rent boys.
ReplyDeleteThey realised their error. Let's hope they continue along the straight path.
ReplyDeleteI heard once somebody went to Rav Moshe with this feigele problem. RAV Moshe said he can study more Torah as therapy. It's really a problem, but I don't think anyone knows a solution.
ReplyDeleteI agree that it's abhorrent, but living in Bnei Brak, is not exactly the litmus test for determining what's happening in other parts of the country.
ReplyDeleteDid you try walking in certain parts of Tel Aviv in the evenings?
Even in the daytime. Walking in main shopping street and seeing treif restaurants, serving toevah, "seafood" etc. Even the most open minded Torah believer can't get totally comfortable with that. Even my traditional cousins are disgusted by treifa foods being sold there.
ReplyDeleteI'm talking about sexual immorailty.
ReplyDeleteAs far as I know, "treif" food doesn't qualify as "toevah".
I had to double check. Devarim 14:
ReplyDelete}
ג לֹא תֹאכַל, כָּל-תּוֹעֵבָה. 3 Thou shalt not eat any abominable thing
Sorry to disagree with you. Unfortunately, they have NOT realized their error.
ReplyDeleteAs the quote indicates, the fact that for several YEARS, they knew that he was living a toeivah lifestyle, was not enough to disqualify him from their program. This is part and parcel of their demented agenda of legitimizing that which the Torah so strongly prohibits.
Which is also the reason, their graduates have the מנהג (same letters as גהנם) to wishes "mazel tov" upon the engagement/marriage of same-sex couples.
http://notorthodox.blogspot.com/p/acceptance-of-homosexuality.html
I sit correctd. Thank you!
ReplyDeleteAccording to Jewish thought, Hashem knows man's limitations, and His commands reflect His knowledge of human nature, and He would not command us something that we're incapable of fulfilling.
ReplyDeleteTherefore, if we see in His Torah a prohibition against homosexuality (or eating pork, or stealing, or keeping Shabbat, mikva, etc.), we say that He knows that we ARE ABLE to restrain ourselves if we want to.
Again, that is not to minimize the extreme challenges that different commands present to different people, but the bottom line is that they're doable, IF a person truly seeks to fulfill His will.
The road to perfection may be a long and dusty one, but even if a person falls, he can pick himself up, dust himself off, and keep moving forward. If he keeps this up, he will make it very far, and will receive great reward for having maintained his spiritual journey.
Jewish thought is the thought of human philosophers, not always 100% factually correct. Or logical. Example, a disabled person is born that way, but it may prevent him from keeping Torah. How about the mitzvot we cannot perform, eg korban pesach? I've met a few gay people over the years, and even before they openly admitted it, their nature was unlike any straight people I know.
ReplyDeleteIt was Satan-mar and rodefei Karta who attempted to murder the remaining Jews in yemen, by telling them fairy stories and forcing them to stay, to be slaughtered like the millions of others by houthi, iranian and saudi bombardments.
ReplyDelete"Korban Pesach" is a red-herring argument, because the inability to perform the mitzvah, is related to external forces, and isn't due to an internal struggle of a person.
ReplyDeleteThe same holds true for a disabled person, who was born with a clear physical disability, which unequivocally prevents him from performing a certain mitzvah/mitzvos.
You have no proof that gayness is like a physical disability.
Anecdotal evidence is generally regarded as limited in value. In the cases of the people that you know, you have no proof that their intrinsic nature was inherently different, and they were so handicapped, that they were totally unable to restrain themselves; or was it just that were already closet feigelach long before they came out.
Yes, i am assuming they were closet feigelach all along.
ReplyDeleteIf you ask 100 scientists and psychologists, there probably won't be any consensus on what causes it. If it is purely environment, then why does it also occur in the frum world?
Actually, there was an American psychologist, about 100 years ago, called Maxwell Maltz. He suggested that when parents have reversed roles of the traditional father /mother , ie the mother is more masculine than the father, that can lead to homosexuality. It makes sense, and I've noticed something like that in a couple of cases, but again it is anecdotal and not sure it can be studied so easily. Is the rise of feminism linked to gay offspring?
There is a concept that we can only do a mitzvoh if it is done b'simcha. A man is not allowed to marry a woman if she is unattractive to him -
ReplyDeleteNow I am not defending any feigele for their queerness - but see how unnatural it is when they (usually) do not have a taavah for the opposite sex, but for the same sex! So it is something that is seriously broken inside of them. it is not like shaatnez for example. Nobody has a taavah for shatnez - if linen is too rough it can be mixed with cotton or silk, so nobody can actually say that they want it with wool or vice versa.
Sometimes a man will meet hundreds of women before he finds one he wants to marry. And if he never finds her he still has the Mitzvah of marriage because he tried to fulfill the Mitzvah. Let the men identifying as LGBT go out and meet thousands of women that they all reject, and he will get a reward for it.
ReplyDeletenot sure i understand - or rather, it is not a very good argument.
ReplyDeleteIf someone isn't attracted to women, they have the option of remaining celibate. That isn't an excuse for opting for other men.
ReplyDeleteWhat I mean is that just because a man has never been attracted to a woman doesn't mean he'll never be attracted to a woman. Every woman is unique.
ReplyDeleteHow does a man who claims they are not attracted to women know he'll never be attracted to a woman? Let him go out and meet ten thousand women.
ReplyDeleteWell, I guess none of us will understand homos, which is good in a way. Not going to educate myself on the subject with Eidah literature!
ReplyDeleteare you are now admitting that their teva is different from straight men? I'm assuming that either the teva is different, or it is a type of mental illness. In either case, they will generally choose to do the aveiras.
ReplyDeleteThat is ridiculous. If you "dated" ten thousand men do you think you would find one that you want to marry?
ReplyDeleteChas v shalom. He's saying that it might work, or at least the effort is a mitzva. It's nonsense to say what you are saying . in any case, a very frum girl told me a story about her friend - she was given a shidduch with a known frum feigele. They married, but he (like they all do) went back to his gay ways. The rabbis/yeshiva knew he was gay but still put him in shidduch ssystem.
ReplyDeleteWell, that is still clueless. For many people of that type, it is inherent. It will not change by meeting a nice girl.
ReplyDeleteThe effort is not a mitzva. It is wasting the time of the woman in question, and if it gets to a stage when he proposes to her to act as his "beard," it is tantamount toruining her life. The Rabbis that you mention are rotzchim, plain and simple.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.gq.com/story/what-if-you-only-thought-you-were-gay/amp
ReplyDeleteI understand that there is a range, but some are definitely firmly on "the other team," and no amount of dating will change that.
ReplyDeleteI'm not taking a stance on something that is debatable. However the point is moot, since the debate revolves around what might be the cause, while we're dealing with the manifest symptom, same-sex-attraction.
ReplyDeleteThe fact is that these people have a greater test in this area, which I acknowledge. However this doesn't give them a pass to sin, since the Torah is immutable, and makes no allowances for such behavior.
Conversion therapy or shidduching them will only backfire. There are some who are bisexual, which is even more complicated.
ReplyDeleteIndeed - a horrendous situation .
ReplyDeleteI don't know why this comment was directed to me, since I never mentioned either conversion therapy or marriage. All I said that was, that if the only viable options are celibacy or sinning, then the Torah mandates that they remain celibate.
ReplyDeleteHistorically, only a small fraction of the Jewish people survives in the long run. We know that in our recent history, too. There were more Jews on Earth eighty years ago then there are now.
ReplyDeleteSo, our goal is to just get a few to carry on. The vast majority of gay men are lost to the Jewish People. They neither procreate nor desist from one of the worst sins.
But if if we can guide 1/10,000 on the right path, we've done our bit.
Torah mandates that they marry and have children. Whether they can or will is another matter.
ReplyDeleteEven the haredi confidant of Rav sonnenfeld, who had a Christian wife, and was in the Holy company of kanoim in meah shearim, could not be satisfied with a Dutch Christian woman, the Talmud Torah of the yeshivas, or celibacy. Kal vchomer for free chilonim in a gay friendly society.
Yes, indeed. Why do kiruv for these characters, who will only bring trouble with them. There is no pink shekel to benefit from.
ReplyDeleteBecause the more I am concerned about my fellow Jew the more I am concerned about myself.
ReplyDelete"If I am only for myself, what am I?"
The more I critique others and want to fix their behavior, the more I'm struck by how flawed I am and in need of fixing. I have these moments where I wake up and realize, "This person I'm reaching out to is actually a better person than I...I was a fool for thinking otherwise!"
I actually relish those moments. Because when I get an inkling of just how fine my fellow Jews are, I also catch a glimpse of the light they reflect from G-d.
Not necessarily. For a girl who might never have married otherwise and had children, she is ahead of the game.
ReplyDeleteYou never cease to amaze me. This is some combo of cluelessness and heartlessness. The woman, whom he tricked into marrying under fall pretenses, who will never know what it means to be desired, is ahead of the game? Who made you God and decided that this woman would not have married someone actually suited to her?
ReplyDeleteSo join open orthodox and see the gay light. 😂
ReplyDeleteThere is a gay light.
ReplyDeleteSome Jwish gay men I've met are sensitive. They seem tortured on some level. I'm not excusing anything about their gayness. I'm just recognizing, I believe, that they have struggled with their Yetzer Hara, and while not victorious, they did fight.
And who emerges totally victorious in these encounters? Even Yaaakov Avinu limped away from the battle.
I heard this story from someone, and I believe it's true.
ReplyDeleteA man goes to his Rosh Yeshiva the morning after the man's wedding and he says, "I married the wrong girl."
The Rosh Yeshiva is astounded. "You figured that out in one night? It took me ten years!"
So don't give me that idealized version of marriage as the only true marriage. A girl marries a man she finds attractive, is supported by him, has children, then gets divorced, has something real. The girl in her forties who still goes to singles events has less.
If you don't understand the difference between marrying someone with whom you feel not compatible and marrying someone who is attracted only to members of their own gender, then there is not much for me to say.
ReplyDeleteOf course there are singles in their 40's, and every effort should be made to help them out. But consigning them to marriage with h-uals is not the answer.
Ok. We disagree. First time! (For those of you just tuning in, that's an inside joke.)
ReplyDeleteNo one disagrees about the Torah's command to marry and have children.
ReplyDeleteHowever these people feel that they're incapable of doing so.
Is there merit to their claims? Can they claim that they're an אונס?
I can't answer for them. This is a matter between them and Hashem, and it's not my business to judge them.
That being said, we can discuss what the Torah demands from a male Jew:
1. Marry and have children.
2. No masturbation.
3. No sex outside the confines of marriage.
4. No male-male sex.
A G-d fearing Torah Jew, being faced with the above (and a healthy Yetzer Hara) will accept upon himself the yoke of marriage, with all the responsibility it entails. He is doing Hashem's will, and will be immensely rewarded for it, in this world and the next.
Those less G-d fearing, either resort to masturbation in order to deal with their pent up sexual tensions, have "girlfriends", or in the case of the homosexual, boyfriends.
Observant Jewish couples are the future of the Jewish people, since they're the ones who are having the most babies. The and sodomites are in the process of self destructing. Which is why, barring the "turkey baster" method, there are no second generation homosexuals.
There are valid points being made by all commentors. Complex problem. I personally don't see any benefit to kiruv gays, although there is the pink pound or Dorothy Dollar aspect.
ReplyDeleteSex outside marriage is nonot issur doraita. Pilegesh has reshut doraita.
ReplyDeleteThe sin of onan was the method of contraception to violate his obligation of yibum. There was no chalitza in his time. In my analysis, chalitza was given to prevent the sin of Onan.
You forget laws of niddah, bestiality and incest. Being born out of wedlock is not a mamzer.
Shulchan Aruch says masturbation is the worst sin in the Torah. That's from the zohar, not the Torah. Noda beyehuda banned all kabbalah.
Even the both men just hugging and say mazal tov that may also be osur midorysa same as a straight hugging a niddah or any other ervah i
ReplyDeletefabricated lies by his murderurs to cover up their tracks
ReplyDeleteCorrect
ReplyDeleteall this gay talk is also not a healthy al pi torah
ReplyDeletemovois mmitunofois
Male-male contact is prohibited if the contact has sexual undertones (אביזרייהו דגילוי עריות).
ReplyDeleteI didn't watch the clip, as it might be included in the prohibition of ולא תתורו אחרי עיניכם.
fabricated by himself? you are sad joke berel, extremely stupid.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.onserfdeel.be/en/publications/articles/in-honour-of-a-forerunner.-the-first-gay-novel-in-modern-world-literature
ReplyDeletehttps://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=it&u=http://www.queerblog.it/post/196512/jacob-de-haan-lo-scrittore-gay-precursore-di-amnesty-international&prev=search
ReplyDeletequeer story
except in Eidah when it's one of your own, or your sodomite mamzeirm in the satmar and geula mikves. yemach shmam to all your s'dom and amara bugger friends.
ReplyDeleteSince the Torah commands to follow us to follow the laws of the Rabbanan. It is therefore fallacious to insinuate that a mitzvah d'rabbanan can be safely ignored.
ReplyDeleteI referred to a G-d fearing Torah Jew, who is careful to follow the laws of Torah, both d'oraita, and d'rabbanan.
You are also misinformed on several points.
According to the Rambam (Sefer HaMitzvos, Lo Ta'aseh #355), consensual sex with an unmarried woman is an issur d'oraita, and is subject to lashes.
Rambam (Yad, Melachim 4:4) posits that only a king was allowed to have a Pilegesh, אבל ההדיוט אסור בפילגש.
While the quote about being "the worst sin in the Torah" is sourced in the Zohar, the actual prohibition against male masturbation is not merely "kabbalistic". It is rooted in the Mishnah and the Talmud (Niddah 13a), and is codified in the Shulchan Aruch (EH 23:1-2) (see Hagahos HaGra, ad loc.).
According to many commentators (Ibn Ezra, Chizkuni, Sforno) לא תנאף does not ONLY mean "Do not commit adultery". It also includes any type of prohibited sexual acts.
According to the Talmud (Niddah 13b) the verse also includes proscribes male masturbation.
תנא דבי רבי ישמעאל "לא תנאף", לא תהא בך ניאוף בין ביד בין ברגל
Rashi (ibid.)
ביד - מוציא זרע לבטלה
[See also Bach (EH 23, s.v Assur)].
See also Iggros Moshe (EH 1:68, ד"ה ועיין) who posits that touching the male organ, in a manner that leads to arousal, is proscribed under the prohibition of לא תנאף, which includes לא תנאף ביד, even if there is no seminal emission.
The Rambam says it is bal tosif to claim a d'rabbanan is D'oraita.
ReplyDeleteNobody agrees with Rambam on pilegesh, and Raavad and Ramban vehemently diagree.
My argument was to distinguish Onanism to what you refer to as masturbation. I am not saying it is mutar, but I am questioning that it is the worst of all sins, when many would say it is only d'rabbanan. I never understood בין ביד בין ברגל, is it referring to contortion artists?
A number of Rambam's statements do not really make much sense - for example, he says in the Guide, that Avraham was only wealthy to relieve him of the burden of work, so he could study Torah. But we know that Avraham was rewarded with wealth as part of his righteousness, and that he worked the land.
ReplyDeletetalk or behaviour? Maybe that is why you have the cognitive dissonance when it comes to your hero and political leader of the Aidah.
ReplyDeletepity they encourage it in some yeshivas
ReplyDeletewatch it
ReplyDeleteshoiteh
ReplyDeleteIn 1904, twenty-three year old Jacob de Haan wrote
ReplyDelete10 to 15 years or more well before he was assocated with the greatest rabbis of the generation
He was a late returnee BT
(much like Kalonyns Kalmon )
before his return to Torah
ReplyDeleteOK, so you accept the 1904 part of it, good, since you are accepting half the truth.
ReplyDeleteproblem is, even after his return to Eidah, he was writing about his undercover behaviour in Dutch,.
ReplyDeleteI think that is also mistaken - since being a celibate is also assur. Rambam likens it to avodah zarah or rashaim.
ReplyDeletewhat makes you think I am a late returnee, or a returnee at all?
ReplyDeleteyes might be
ReplyDeletedont be so nosy
ReplyDeleteand I am not nosy about Balai tshuvah today
I let them follow teir path to heaven ups and downs
why do you attack personally?
ReplyDeletewhy the verbal abuse?
aish
ReplyDeletePuzzelled ?
ReplyDeleteAren't we all ?
ReplyDeletei never went there
ReplyDeleteYou started it.
ReplyDeletewell maybe you should
ReplyDeleteshoiteh is not abuse the gemorah says many times tardeh ---shoiteh mivuhal
ReplyDeleteso therfore they should sin the greatest sin?
ReplyDeletefantasy
ReplyDeletereally, why do you invent so much sheker about people much greater than your own gedolim?
ReplyDeleteSure. Let's ignore it. Like many moral people did for decades as the gays consolidated, gained power, changed laws, corrupted youth through entertainers, movies, TV, media.
ReplyDeleteYeah. That worked out real well for us. Just ask the Jews in London and New York where authorities want to teach Jewish children to become tolerant.
Sheker.
ReplyDeleteso "idiot" is translation of shoiteh
ReplyDeleteSource?
ReplyDeleteIn any event, the point is moot, since if the only viable options are celibacy or sinning, then celibacy would be the less of the two evils.
They must be called out Loudly
ReplyDeleteno different then condoning wife swapping
I'm not the Ramabam's lawyer, and have no obligation to explain everything he wrote in the Guide to the Perplexed.
ReplyDeleteThe Sefer Hamitzvos is a sefer halacha, and is very clear.
i never say idiot only shoiteh
ReplyDeleteI translate or use ksil. Shlomo hamelech uses ksil, it's a holy word.
ReplyDeletewho said that?
ReplyDeleteI'm not planning to go to jail over this...
ReplyDeleteYou're misquoting the Rambam
ReplyDeleteמנין המצוות בקצרה, בהקדמה ליד החזקה בתחילת ספר מדע
ואינם כתוספת על מצוות התורה וכו', [ש]אם הוסיפו ב"ד עם נביא שיהיה באותו הזמן מצוה דרך תקנה, או דרך הוראה, או דרך גזירה, אין זו תוספת, שהרי לא אמרו שהקב"ה צוה לעשות עירוב, או לקרות מגילה בעונתה, ואילו אמרו כן היו מוסיפין על התורה, אלא כך אנו אומרים, שהנביאים עם בית דין תקנו וצוו וכו
One thing is for sure, the feigelach have no issues about Pilegesh.
What does your wife (?) have to say about you dreaming about taking a Pilegesh?
I referred to a G-d fearing Torah Jew, who is careful to follow the laws of Torah, both d'oraita, and d'rabbanan. Your peeve with the Shulchan Aruch paraphrasing the Zohar is irrelevant to the discussion, because spilling seed in vain is prohibited by Talmudic law, regardless if it's by masturbation or by coitus interruptus.
I have no desire to get graphic about בין ביד בין ברגל. Ask your LOR.
The story about Yirmiyahu, is a legend that is found in a work of questionable date and authorship.
Here is a good digest on Pilegesh
ReplyDeletehttp://dafyomi.co.il/sanhedrin/halachah/sn-hl-021.htm
My discussions are theoretical and not halacha l'maaseh.
Ben Sira appears also in a Midrash :
"The second source generally cited is a medieval midrash
[interpretative narrative] regarding Ben Sira, a second‑century B.C.E.
author of a book of the Apocrypha cited in the Talmud. This legend,
first mentioned by Rabbi Jacob Moellin Segal (1365‑1427) in his work Likutei Maharil,
claims that Ben Sira was conceived without sexual intercourse by the
prophet Jeremiah’s daughter in a bath, the father having been Jeremiah himself who, coerced by a group of wicked men, had emitted semen into the water.
The midrash is undoubtedly based on the fact that the Hebrew
spellings of “Jeremiah” and “Sira” have the same numerical equivalent, 271."
https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/traditional-sources-on-artificial-insemination/
So yes, possibly the late midrash is questionable, but it is still orthodox.
The Pilegesh is already something that Reb Dovid Eidensohn has proposed, and I think Joe Orlow knows him personally, he will confirm.
My chiddush on Onanism is not irrelevant, it is brilliant - don't i get some praise for it? The question to me is why G-d punished Onan? was it because the act of spilling his seed is intrinsically sinful, or that the context of his act was a violation of the torah whcih he had no choice but to fulfill? This is Brisk thinking, but better.
The single man who has no outlet and masturbates is the opposite of Onan. Onan has the means and the mitzvoh to procreate and he refuses, whilst the single man/teenager has neither.
Again, this is a contextual analysis, not to be taken as halacha l'maaseh.
Halacha 9 in mamrim beit.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1181853/jewish/Mamrim-Chapter-2.htm
I went to Rav Simcha Wasserman ztl , just off King George st (near the heichal Shlomo) 😊
ReplyDeleteRegarding Rambam .see the citation from mamrim. Also, Nachmanides points out the opposition of the neviim and chachamim to establishing Purim.
ReplyDeleteIn this Halacha, Rambam is forbidding the forbidding of what is permitted by the Torah:
ReplyDeleteDeot Ch.3 ; 1:
שמא יאמר אדם הואיל והקנאה
והתאוה והכבוד וכיוצא בהם דרך רעה הן ומוציאין את האדם מן העולם אפרוש מהן
ביותר ואתרחק לצד האחרון עד שלא יאכל בשר ולא ישתה יין ולא ישא אשה ולא
ישב בדירה נאה ולא ילבש מלבוש נאה אלא השק והצמר הקשה וכיוצא בהן כגון כהני
העובדי כוכבים גם זה דרך רעה היא ואסור לילך בה המהלך בדרך זו נקרא חוטא
שהרי הוא אומר בנזיר וכפר עליו מאשר חטא על הנפש אמרו חכמים ומה אם נזיר
שלא פירש אלא מן היין צריך כפרה המונע עצמו מכל דבר ודבר על אחת כמה וכמה
לפיכך צוו חכמים שלא ימנע אדם עצמו אלא מדברים שמנעתו התורה בלבד ולא יהא
אוסר עצמו בנדרים ובשבועות על דברים המותרים כך אמרו חכמים לא דייך מה
שאסרה תורה אלא שאתה אוסר עליך דברים אחרים ובכלל הזה אלו שמתענין תמיד
אינן בדרך טובה ואסרו חכמים שיהא אדם מסגף עצמו בתענית ועל כל הדברים האלו
וכיוצא בהן צוה שלמה ואמר אל תהי צדיק הרבה ואל תתחכם יותר למה תשומם:
Sorry, I don't know how this is relevant to anything that I wrote.
ReplyDeleteTorah thought on Parshat מצרע
ReplyDelete“The Lord spoke to Moses, saying: This shall be the ritual for a leper at the time that he is to be cleansed. When it has been reported והובא [or he shall be brought] to the priest” (Leviticus 14:1-2).
There is a midrash that God struck Job with leprosy. “The Adversary answered the Lord, Skin for skin—all that a man has he will give up for his life. But lay a hand on his bones and his flesh, and he will surely blaspheme You to Your face. So the Lord said to the Adversary, See, he is in your power; only spare his life. The Adversary departed from the presence of the Lord and inflicted a severe inflammation on Job from the sole of his foot to the crown of his head.” (Job 2:4-7).
Niidah 52a
“Job blasphemed with the mention of tempest and he was answered with a tempest. He blasphemed with the mention of tempest, saying to Him, Sovereign of the world, perhaps a tempest has passed before Thee, and caused Thee to confuse Job איוב with enemy אויב?
תלמוד בבלי מסכת נדה דף נב עמוד א
בסערה חירף - אמר לפניו: רבש"ע, שמא רוח סערה עברה לפניך ונתחלפה לך בין איוב לאויב?
דף על הדף נדה דף נב עמוד א
ג. עפ"י מש"כ האר"י [בשער הפסוקים פר' בשלח] שנרמז עונשו של איוב בצרעת בפסוק "תרעץ אויב" - תרעץ לשון צרעת וכן נרמז איוב בפסוק "אמר אויב ארדוף אשיג אחלק שלל" וגו' שיעץ איוב לפרעה לשלוט בישראל בגופם ובממונם בלי לגעת בנפשם, [דלא כהמדרש שאיוב שתק], וע"ז ג"כ הגיע לו עונש בגופו וממונו בלי לגעת בנפשו, וזה מה שאמר איוב להקב"ה שהעניש אותו ע"י שהחליף את שמו עצמו באומרו "ארדוף אשיג אחלק שלל" [בן יהוידע בב"ב ט"ז א] ע"כ.
“Your right hand, O Lord, glorious in power, Your right hand, O Lord, shatters the foe!” (Exodus 15:6).
שמות פרק טו
יְמִינְךָ יְקֹוָק נֶאְדָּרִי בַּכֹּחַ יְמִינְךָ יְקֹוָק תִּרְעַץ אוֹיֵב
In the Gamara there is a view that Moses wrote the Book of Job Some say (רש"ש) Moses taught the Book of Job to the Israelites which the wicked Pharaoh scorned: “Let heavier work be laid upon the men; let them keep at it and not pay attention to deceitful promises ואל ישעו לדברי שקר.” (Exodus 5:9).
My theory is that ancient Egypt, infamous for 1) marriages of man to man 2) marriages woman to woman and 3) marriages of one woman to 2 men---had horrible diseases particularly sexually transmitted such as AIDS. “He said, If you will heed the Lord your God diligently, doing what is upright in His sight, giving ear to His commandments and keeping all His laws, then I will not bring upon you any of the diseases that I brought upon the Egyptians, for I the Lord am your healer.” (Exodus 15:26).
Hertz Chumash writes: At Marah the Israelite found themselves threatened with one of the plagues of Egypt, undrinkable water. God delivered them from this; and similarly, if they were obedient, He would protect then from the diseases what had afflicted the Egyptians.
This doesn't contradict the Rambam I quoted above.
ReplyDeleteIf you think that it does, then you'll have to spell out how.
I said that celibacy is forbidden, and this was my source. I made an error, because he says wearing sackcloth is practiced by idol worshippers, and I extended it to celibacy.
ReplyDeleteSame to you. You claimed I misquoted the Rambam, but I was quoting from mamrim, or pointing to it. So do you think I've misread what he brings in hilchot Mamrim?
ReplyDeleteYou also have free speech
ReplyDeleteHaha, say anything bad about feigelach, and they arrest you for "homophobia". But the police are unable to stop bnei Ham from killing people every day in London.
ReplyDeleteshoiteh
ReplyDeletelies and more lies
ReplyDeletemaybe its time High time!
ReplyDeletetorah tavlin
ReplyDeletebarasi yetzer hora borosi torah tavlin
It is even forbidden for a male to go on a date with a man or boy
ReplyDeleteit would be a reyah osurah , (no heter of osur lkadesh isha )od shyirenah sheme yirah buh daver vihtorah omar viohavta lireacha ...!
Btw, the zohar says there's no teshuva for that act. I'm not sure if the SA says that. But that goes against the entire Torah, both written and oral, regarding teshuva.
ReplyDeleteThe firebrand rabbi mizrachi in new York points out that the realm of zohar does not interfere with the realm of Torah and Halacha. The Halacha says that even a rasha gamur who does teshuva on his last day, not aan iota of his sins will be mentioned to him in olam haba.
The whole subject is like 100 levels of tumah. That's why every time I think about it, I conclude, better let them enjoy their kareis, and not have anything to do with them. No kiruv, no inclusivism, no chanifah.
ReplyDeleteIt's true, however, don't know what the tavlin is in this case.
ReplyDeleteI preface, that even today, in the Catholic Church, priests and nuns are supposed to remain celibate.
ReplyDeleteYes, of course celibacy is forbidden. You don't need the Rambam to tell you that a person should not neglect to fulfill the mitzvah of being fruitful and multiplying, or deny himself the benefit of being married in order to protect himself from committing sexual sins.
However in this context, the Rambam is merely decrying the notion that a person should not practice celibacy for reasons of asceticism. Therefore, this quote is irrelevant to the discussion, since in our case, the reason for celibacy is not due to asceticism, rather it's due to the person's problem of same-sex-attraction.
Yes, he should try to overcome his issues with SSA, and also bring himself to a mental state where he is able to get married. However until he does that, and currently, the only two viable options are celibacy or sinning, then I think that the Rambam would agree that the person should remain celibate, since that is the less of the two evils.
Interesting argument - I would counter that:
ReplyDeletea) It might not be the same case, but when I mentioned Onan as a different case/context, you argued that the final result it what matters.
b) Ok, so your personal solution is celibacy - but nobody has said that , and it has not been declared by gedolim. It is not that I am trying o protect feiglkeit, quite the opposite. But already in freakshow Gur, they are imposing a kind of near celibacy even for married men. I think we discussed the Steipler's response on this once.
c) If you think you can impose celibacy on feiglach, then you are sadly deluded. Assuming such a gezeira could be made today, half of that population would not be able or willing to keep it. In any case, think logically. If feiglach are not able to keep to a severe d'oraita, do you think they will keep to a d'rabbanan with little authority? Even back in the day when there was criminal law against it, people still did it privately. Some even published books glorifying the subject, whilst being the public face of the most hareidi group there is!
"even today, in the Catholic Church, priests and nuns are supposed to remain celibate."
ReplyDeleteyes, it is the same Avodah Zarah that the Rambam is talking about, wearing sackloth, and then also shaving the head etc.
a) I stand by what I said. Your "pshet'l" about Onan doesn't pass the the sniff test of he mishna and gemara in Niddah 13, and the ruling of the Shulchan Aruch (EH 23:1-2).
ReplyDeleteb) I don't base my opinions on surveys. I stated what I believe to be the correct approach for a conflicted Torah Jew, who is committed to not sinning. Do you have a different suggestion? Remember, the case as presented, was that the only two viable options are either celibacy or sinning.
c) Shame on you. You're attacking a straw man. I never even remotely suggested making a gezeira "imposing" celibacy on feiglach. I merely stated what I believe the Torah requires from such a person, given the particular circumstances.
a) fair enough, I'll find a source that supports it.
ReplyDeleteb) in that case good luck, but you won't find many people who fit into it.
c) Shame on me? For what exactly? It's a gezeira like it or not. That is the general rule for gezeiros, and in this case, your suggestion doesn't pass the gezeiro "sniff test".
Your question about teshuva always helping, since nothing stands in the way of someone who does teshuva, is not a new question, and was asked centuries ago.
ReplyDeleteSee Reishis Chochmah (Shaar HaKedusha, 17) who gives several answers.
However the Zohar, as quoted by R' Chaim Vital in Shaar Hakavanot (Drushei Layla, 7) does NOT say that there's absolutely no teshuva for wasting seed. It merely says that "plain" teshuva is insufficient, because this sin needs "heavy duty" teshuva.
שכל העבירות תליין בתיובתא לבד ממוצי' שז"ל דלית ליה תיובתא בר בטורח סגי ויתיר
This is in consonance with the words of the Zohar (2:214b)
והני מילי כד לא עבד תיובתא שלימתא, תיובתא דאיהי אתחזייא לחפייא על כל עובדוי
that imply that "teshuva sheleima" does help.
See also Shut Maharsham (1:58, end)
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=1386&pgnum=93
from the Zohar (Chodosh) Rus (12) that through "teshuva sheleima" and Torah study, a person can be totally forgiven.
Shame on you for putting words into my mouth that I never said or suggested, and then attacking them as deluded.
ReplyDeleteThat is the classic "straw man" form of argument, which is based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was NOT presented by that opponent.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
Also, Onan is a separate case from the other thing that is assur. If it was so assur , then marital relations a) with a pregnant wife, b) a no longer fertile wife, c) lo'darka would all be assur, when they are in fact all mutar.
ReplyDeleteI am modifying my original argument, as I accept there is a clear issur. i am questioning the nature of that issur and whether or not it is based on Onan.
As an aside, I read once that either the Arizal or the Zohar says that Er read backwards is Ra - which implies that Er was also doing evil like Onan. nice bit of of kabbalah thrown in.
Hmm. It's a straw man if what you propose is not a gezeira, or doesn't imply gezeira.
ReplyDeleteA gezeira is a fence or prohibition to prevent a biblical sin, eg muktzeh for shabbat.
(Smartphone is assur for some by gezeira. The Torah doesn't forbid using a phone with screen per se. )
Your argument is that in order to prevent feigeles from their sinful act, they should remain celibate.
I see that as a gezeira. But even if you deny it's a gezeira, it's still absurd . If someone cannot escape their gay taavah, Kal vchomer they will not accept being celibate.
There is also Reb nachman of breslov tikkun, or teshuva me ahava.
ReplyDeleteBravo Rabbi Gordimer. See http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/23714
ReplyDeleteImagine a kosher-certified restaurant whose menu includes ham and cheese sandwiches and shrimp. You ask the certifying rabbi: “How can this be kosher!?”, and he replies, “It’s a new kashrut standard, which I call ‘Open Kosher’.”
This is the sin of Baal Peor: “While Israel was staying at Shittim, the people profaned themselves by whoring ויחל העם לזנות [others, began to commit harlotry] with the Moabite women, who invited the people to the sacrifices for their god. The people partook of them and worshiped that god. Thus Israel attached itself to Baal-Peor, and the Lord was incensed with Israel ויחר אף ה' בישראל. The Lord said to Moses, Take all the ringleaders כל ראשי העם [lit. heads of the people] and have them publicly נגד השמש [Others, in face of the sun] impaled before the Lord, so that the Lord’s wrath may turn away from Israel. 5So Moses said to Israel’s officials, Each of you slay those of his men who attached themselves to Baal-Peor.” (Numbers 25:).
Midrash Rabbah - Numbers XX:24
“Just then one of the Israelites came and brought a Midianite woman over to his companions, in the sight of Moses and of the whole Israelite community who were weeping at the entrance of the Tent of Meeting” (Numbers 25:6). What reason had he for doing so? It serves to teach you that he showed no respect either for heaven or for man. Of him it says, “The proud, insolent man, scoffer is his name, Acts in a frenzy of insolence” (Proverbs 21:24). The woman said to him: I shall give myself to none but Moses, for so my father Balak bade me, not to yield to any one but to Moses your master, because my father was a king. Said he to her: Behold, I am as great as he is! I shall bring you out before their eyes! He seized her by her plait and brought her to Moses. He said to him: O son of Amram! Is this woman permitted [in marriage] or forbidden? He answered him: She is forbidden to you. Said Zimri to him: Yet the woman whom you married was a Midianitess! Thereupon Moses felt powerless and the law slipped from his mind. All Israel wailed aloud; for it says, THEY WERE WEEPING (XXV, 6). What were they weeping for? Because they became powerless at that moment. This may be illustrated by a parable. It is like the case of a king's daughter who, having adorned herself for the purpose of entering the bridal chamber and sitting in a palanquin, was discovered misconducting herself with a stranger, and so her father and her relatives lost heart. It was the same with Israel. At the end of forty years they camped by the Jordan to cross over into the Land of Israel; as it says, And they pitched by the Jordan, from Beth-jeshimoth even unto Abel-shittim in the plains of Moab (Num. XXXIII, 49), and there they gave way to harlotry. The courage of Moses failed him as did that of the righteous with him. THEY WERE WEEPING. But surely Moses had stood against sixty myriads; as is proved by the text which says, And he took the calf which they had made and burnt it (Ex. XXXII, 20)! Would his courage fail him now? It was, however, in order that Phinehas might come and receive his due. And because Moses had been tardy, No man knoweth of his sepulchre (Deut. XXXIV, 6). This serves to teach you that a man must be as fierce as a leopard, swift as an eagle, fleet as a hart, and strong as a lion in the performance of his Maker's Will. From this you can also infer that He is meticulously exacting towards the righteous, aye, even to as much as a hair's breadth!
Well said. I don't often agree with Rav Gordimer, but on this occasion he even seems a bit too lenient towards them. There is no orthodox gay marriage, it's a bloody oxymoron.
ReplyDeleteAnyone who tries to accommodate this meshugas with Torah will get themselves into a serious muddle.
Daf Hayomi one hour ago
ReplyDeleteChullin 134b:
“Our Rabbis taught: The shoulder [Deut. XVIII, 3. הזרוע], that is, the right shoulder. You say it is the right shoulder, but perhaps it is the left? Scripture therefore says: The shoulder. How is this implied? As Raba said: The thigh [Gen. XXXII, 33. V. supra 91a. The implication is from the additional ה the, in each case] means the right thigh, so The shoulder means the right shoulder. And for what purpose is the cheeks stated [i.e., the additional ה, the]? To include the wool Upon the head of sheep and the hair of the beard of goats. And for what purpose is The maw stated [i.e., the additional ה, the]? To include the fat that lies upon the stomach and the fat within the stomach [The fat upon the greater and lesser curvatures of the stomach; v. Tur. Yoreh De'ah c. LXI. Perhaps the second וחלב should be read וחלב, i.e., the milk within the stomach; and from Rashi (in MSS.) this would appear to be the meaning]. For R. Joshua [Probably R. Joshua b. Levi; so MS .M. In many MSS. (v. Bah) For at the head of this passage is omitted, and the passage is quite independent of what has gone before] said: The priests were in the habit of being generous with this [Sc., the supplementary portions of the stomach. Cf. Taz, Yoreh De'ah c. LXI, sub-sec. 7] and used to return it to the owners. The only reason [for returning it] is that they were in the habit [of doing so], but had they not been of this habit it certainly would have belonged to them. The interpreters of Scripture by symbol [דורשי חמורות in MS.M. דורשי רשומות. See the exhaustive discussion of Lauterbach in JQR. (N.S.) I, pp. 291-333, 503, 531] used to say: The shoulder [These portions were granted to the priests as a reward for Phinehas's zealous act in slaying Zimri, and so turned away God's wrath from Israel. V. Num. XXV, 6ff] represents the hand [of Phinehas], for it is written: When Phinehas, son of Eleazar son of Aaron the priest, saw this, he left the assembly and, taking a spear in his hand” (Numbers 25:7) [Presumably in his right hand, consequently it is the right shoulder that is to be given]. The cheeks represent his prayer, for so it is written: “Phinehas stepped forth and intervened ויפלל and the plague ceased”(Psalms 106:30). The maw — this is to be taken in its literal sense, for so it is written: “he followed the Israelite into the chamber and stabbed both of them, the Israelite and the woman, through the belly. Then the plague against the Israelites was checked” (Numbers 25:8).”
See, Zimri wanted to marry Cozbi the daughter of Zur. “The name of the Israelite who was killed, the one who was killed with the Midianite woman, was Zimri son of Salu, chieftain of a Simeonite ancestral house. The name of the Midianite woman who was killed was Cozbi daughter of Zur; he was the tribal head of an ancestral house in Midian.” (Numbers 25:5-6).
Does Moses share some of the blame of the sin of Baal Peor? Does Aaron share dome of the blame of the sin of the Golden Calf? See my http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/23486
this is being foisted on the public
ReplyDeleteYou see, outside of the discussion on Tzionut, you have half decent Torah hashkafah
ReplyDeletethats why we wnt nothing to do with the Tamai! Zionists
ReplyDeleteYou think they are worse than or equal to homosexual behavior ? I mean frum Zionist. YOU obviously think a gay antizionist is better than a shulchan Aruch frum Zionist
ReplyDeleteMaybe those who oppose the TORAH Zionism, who deny G-d promising eretz yisrael toys, are the tamei kofrim and sonei Hashem.
ReplyDeleteBrunei starting sekilah punishment, and they have opposition in democracies:
ReplyDeletehttps://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/police-cancel-bravery-awards-at-dorchester-over-brunei-s-anti-gay-laws-68tqkncws?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR1pXwoZ9TnM8jhJg4upmrVCUB95lkefFwZIockxFoTeutnSFartC5s3r0Y#Echobox=1554913863
UTJ office
ReplyDeletehttps://images1-ynet-prod.azureedge.net//PicServer5/2019/02/14/9066299/90662980100892640360no.jpg
bought and paid for
ReplyDeleteWhich is worse public Avodah Zarahcausing all sins including Niuf also or relative prvate korais Niuf alone ?
ReplyDeleteyou Choose
The Mishnah and Gemara define Avodah Zarah, eg when you throw stones at merculis, or defecate at baal peor etc. So what is the Avodah zarah which you allege, that fulfills these definitions? And why are your Chassidic friends who promote Pantheism, eg the Besht and the Bal haTanya, exempt from this lable? (The Gra and R' C. Volozhiner accused them of avodah zarah).
ReplyDeleteThe Ribbono Shel Olam "brought us Zionism"
ReplyDelete