arutz 7
https://daattorah.blogspot.com/2010/11/rav-moshe-feinstein-sitting-next-to.html
El Al, Israel’s national airline, has adopted a new policy regarding the handling of male passengers who refuse to sit next to women, following criticism of a series of incidents on a recent flight.
Last Thursday night, four male passengers, all members of the haredi community, refused to take seats assigned to them after they discovered that they had been seated next to female passengers.
Claiming that their religious beliefs required that they be seated away from female passengers, the four men demanded that special accommodations be made in their case.
Despite orders by one of the flight attendants that the four men take their assigned seats, the flight was ultimately delayed by more than an hour, with the dispute only being resolved after several women agreed to change seats.
The incident drew heavy criticism, including from Barak Eilam, the CEO of NICE Systems, an analytics software company.
In a social media post, Eilam vowed to cut any and all business ties with El Al and to boycott the airline until the airline banned “actions discriminating [against] women”.
“At NICE we don’t do business with companies that discriminate against race, gender or religion. NICE will not fly EL Al Israel Airlines until they change their practice and actions discriminating women.”
In response to Eilam’s post, El Al CEO Gonen Usishkin criticized the Nice Systems chief’s comments, and emphasized that El Al had adopted clear guidelines in the way wake of last week’s incident to prevent similar occurrences in the future.
“The post by the NICE CEO was made without a thorough check of the facts, and I explained that to him in a conversation,” Usishkin said, according to a report by Channel 10.
“EL Al’s employees who handled the incident did so with the necessary sensitivity. Everyone who flies with the national airline feels the values the company was founded on: an egalitarian company which does not discriminate based on religion, race, or sex.”
Usishkin added that he had released a new directive, requiring that in the future, passengers who refuse their assigned seats will be immediately removed from the flight.
“For the sake of clarity, today I ordered that the regulations be clarified on this matter, and that in the future, any passenger who refuses to sit next to another passenger will be immediately removed from the flight.”
view of Rav Moshe
Rav Moshe allowed sitting on a bus next to women. Who says it's assur on a plane?
ReplyDeleteif you read the tshuva he says if it bothers you there is no heter
ReplyDeleteNo is there a heter to make a major brouhaha. Instead of robbing each individual passenger of their hour, the religious passenger should have disembarked and taken it up with the airline, not the flight crew. Even if he were delayed until the next day, the total loss of man-hours would still have been less than it was!
ReplyDeleteshould you then go on this flight with the expectation that you will be placed next to a woman?
ReplyDeleteA simple computer program could seat the person next to male only. Problem solved.
ReplyDeleteWhat is a brouhaha??
ReplyDeleteDude, you serious? This is the internet. Just type it in. There's a Wikipedia entry, in fact. And Merriam Webster records a possible Hebrew etymology that's pretty interesting.
ReplyDeleteA subway ride is 45 to 90 minutes, typically. An international flight is easily 12 hours. A domestic flight is easily 3 hours.
ReplyDeleteThe airline cannot determine who you'll be sitting next to until shortly before departure.
ReplyDeleteI fail to see a reply to my point here.
ReplyDeleteAs was noted by others, a simple computer program could seat the person next to male only. Problem solved.
ReplyDeleteSolution _ negotiate mehadrin seats with airlines, they charge a bit extra, problem solved.
ReplyDeleteHe says a talmid chacham should not have lustful thoughts. Why are hareidim so lustful, even more so than goyim?
ReplyDeleteyou are corrcct but he says if they do - no heter
ReplyDeletethere is a rule the greater the person the greater is his yetzer
It applies even if he is lustful:
ReplyDelete. That is because this is also not done for the sake of pleasure (derech chiba)…. However if it is known that this will bring about lustful thoughts then he should refrain from traveling in these circumstances if it isn’t necessary. But if he needs to travel on the buses and subways because of his work then it would be permitted even if it brings about lustful thoughts.
איתא במד"ר קהלת, אצל בר אחתי' דר' יהושע בן חנניא שבא לא"י על חמורו של אפיקורס אחד, (אל-על בלע"ז) וא"ל ר"י בן חנני' כיון שבאת על חמרא דהאי רשיעא צריך אתה לחזור לחו"ל ואין אתה רשאי לישאר בא"י ושמע אליו וחזר ונסתלק בחו"ל בשלום!. ומפ' כיון שבא על חמורו של אפיקורס הי' ירא שימשך אחר דברי מינות
ReplyDeleteif you read Rav Moshe's Hetter a couple of times, you actually realise how great he was and not typically haredi .
ReplyDeletedon't know any typical chareidim - i probably would also find them problematic
ReplyDeletesorry, there are stereotypes , but how typical are they? And how typical is it of Hareidi men trying to change their seats on planes? Do they also do this on flights in the US, when the passengers are goyim?
ReplyDeleteהערה: היכי דמי? אי דאיכא דרכא אחריתא, רשע הוא! אי דליכא דרכא אחריתא, אנוס הוא,
ReplyDeleteלעולם דליכא דרכא אחריתא, ואפ"ה מיבעי ליה למינס נפשיה. -בבא בתרא, נז . וצ"ע
ח"כ הרב ישראל אייכלר במליאת הכנסת: "אני מודיע מכאן לחברת אל על, אם תיכנעו לטרור של ארגוני שונאי החרדים ותורידו אדם אחד שהתנהג יפה וביקש להחליף מקום, אנחנו נוריד לכם רבבות נוסעים בשנה. טרור צרכני ייענה בתגובה צרכנית כואבת״.
ReplyDeleteHow would a non-religious Jew such as yourself know anything about religious Jews?
ReplyDeletehow is it that fanatics such as yourself are so sexually obsessed, that any woman in the seat next to you is a target of your rape fantasies? Maybe you should try medical treatment for your condition
ReplyDeleteIt is against the law to seat based on gender. (US) so computer program would be useless.
ReplyDelete"It is against the law to seat based on gender."
ReplyDeleteDoes this law also apply when it is done by request of the customers?
so what the hareidi entrepreneur should do, is to book a block of seats, and then fill it up, but then they stand to lose money if they can't get the right amount of people.
ReplyDeleteAre you implying you're not a talmid chacham?, or that your lustfull.., and projecting yourself on others. ?
ReplyDeleteר' עקיבא אמר: "כשהייתי עם הארץ הייתי אומר מי יתן לי תלמיד חכם ואשכנו כחמור", ושאלו התוספות: הרי גם בתקופת היותו עם הארץ היה ר' עקיבא "צניע ומעלי", שכן בדרך הזו בתוֹ של כלבא שבוע הגדירה אותו, ומשום כך נישאה לו; כיצד, אם כן, איש "צניע ומעלי" יגיע לשנאה כה גדולה לתלמידי חכמים? י
ומתרץ: "דהתם לאו משום שהיה שונא תלמידי חכמים אלא משום "שהיה סבור שמתגאין על עמי הארץ מפני תורתן", והיו תלמידי חכמים שונאים אותם, וגם משום שלא היו מניחין אותם לנגוע, כדאמרינן: 'בגדי עם הארץ מטמאים במדרס לפרושים', אבל מכל מקום שומר מצוות היה". ע"כ. -חגיגה יח ע"ב
I was citing Rav Moshe's Teshuva on the matter. Perhaps he was too "reform" for your ilk?
ReplyDeleteilk does not exist in most dialects of modern English.
ReplyDeleteperhaps you meant ilca.
hahahaha
ReplyDeleteit says למינס נפשיה, not למינס אחריני!
They should sit next to the women but huddle so that they don't touch, and close their eyes so that they don't see! Problem solved.
Eddie, it's Chaim. Nice to see you. With the important disclaimer that all criticism I make is at least 10% non-serious, I would point out that you seem to have gone off the deep end. השנאה מקלקלת את השורה. It is so tiring to see people bashing those who wish to live with a higher standard of פרישות as simply lustful. You can do better than that, I know you can!
ReplyDeleteYour friend
Chaim
It seems to me that in 2018 that should not be the case.
ReplyDeleteIs it against the law to only book a seat if it is next to a man?
ReplyDeletea huge fuss
ReplyDeletea balagan
NEW REPORT: Chareidim Refusing Seats Next To Women Was NOT Cause Of Delayed El Al Flight
ReplyDeletehttps://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/israel-news/1554284/new-report-chareidim-refusing-seats-next-to-women-was-not-cause-of-delayed-el-al-flight.html
just published an update
ReplyDeletehttps://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/ilk
ReplyDeleteChaim, we missed you!
ReplyDeleteI appreciate that, Eddie. I'm also glad that Rabbi Eidensohn's recovery seems to be progressing well.
ReplyDelete"The Old English pronoun ilca is the predecessor of the modern noun ilk, but by way of a pronoun ilk that "does not exist in most dialects of modern English". Thatilk is synonymous with same, and persists in Scots where it's used in the phrase of that ilk, meaning "of the same place, territorial designation, or name."
ReplyDeleteMerriam-Webster