As religious we have two major challenges Emunah and Bitachon
Reading through the latest Jewish literature I have discovered that a real orthodox Jew is supposed to believe that everything which happens is to be accepted as inevitable because G-d runs the world
However this is a recent development
In fact the Lubavitcher Rebbe claims It was first asserted by the Baal Shem Tov
the Rambam and many others clearly disagreed with it and Rav Dessler doesnt even mention it
It seems further proof that the Chassidim have won! hashgacha protis applies to everything
Reading through the latest Jewish literature I have discovered that a real orthodox Jew is supposed to believe that everything which happens is to be accepted as inevitable because G-d runs the world
However this is a recent development
In fact the Lubavitcher Rebbe claims It was first asserted by the Baal Shem Tov
the Rambam and many others clearly disagreed with it and Rav Dessler doesnt even mention it
It seems further proof that the Chassidim have won! hashgacha protis applies to everything
There are various ideas but the one that this world is an illusion and all preordained is a very strange idea. perhaps it's true but the Torah doesn't suggest such a thing. Did Louis Jacobs have the free will to remain Orthodox or to become a conservative apikorus? Or is the fact that he became one just part of the Divine plan ? that's what you have to ask.
ReplyDeleteOn a related topic, the Brisker Rov zt'l would often fault those who engaged in "too much hishtadlus" rather than having enough Bitachon.
ReplyDeleteIn Lubavitch, they teach that if a leaf falls of a tree , it has meaning. But this is insanity, there are many random and chaotic events all around us.
ReplyDeleteHaving said that, sometimes things happen around us which seem to be telling us something, and we have to understand what. The kochavim or astrology looks at random stars int he sky and reads things from them - but Rambam calls this avodat kochavim u'mazalot.
Yes and no. Free will is there , if we make wrong decisions (often based on fallacious beliefs such as those taught in michtav m'eliyahu) then we get bad outcomes.
ReplyDeleteDepends on who you ask
ReplyDeleteThat isn't a particularly Lubavitch teaching or even a Chasidic one. It is a widely taught Jewish concept.
ReplyDeleteWhat is hishtadlus? If you look both sides before crossing the road? Problem with brisker rov and r'desslers view is that they didn't live in the real world, and were supported by the kehillah, who did do hishtadlus. I heard the satmar rebbe encouraged people to go into business. That's the opposite of the brisker view.
ReplyDeleteI suppose then that you're more the Satmar type.
ReplyDeleteIt is pure fantasy to invest time and energy in thinking about random events. If I play the lottery, numbers are intrinsically meaningless, even if/when I win, the winning numbers have no significance other than they happened to be picked. So a leaf falling or a fly does not tell us anything.
ReplyDelete"It seems further proof that the Chassidim have won!"
ReplyDeleteIf that's an accurate assessment, it's probably a good thing.
I've heard it claimed a few times that some ggedolim said that anyone who believes 6 million didn't need to die in and some could have been saved are heretics. . But again this is false since we have free will. Some exercise their free will and perform the Mitzvah to save lives where as others fail to do this. We are told throughout the Torah that if person x hadn't carried out a particular axe then history would have been different this contradicts the statement of predestination.
ReplyDeleteActually IIRC the Michtav MiEliyahu does agree with this principle although he describes it differently. He espouses the view that this world is just an allusion and that everything is a foregone conclusion. That's probably how it made its way into the yeshivish world.
ReplyDeleteעיקר א': אני מאמין באמונה שלמה שהבורא יתברך שמו הוא בורא ומנהיג לכל הברואים והוא לבדו עשה ועושה ויעשה לכל המעשים
ReplyDeleteDo you believe that can win the lottery randomly? Without God's input?
ReplyDeleteRambam Moreh Nevuchim says hp is only for the elite such as prophets
ReplyDeleteOf course not. But the usual winners are people in the middle of nowhere , who blow it on crazy lifestyles etc. It is unlikely they win from zchus, it's totally random. I studied chemistry, and atoms have chaotic behavior but follow general rules. The number of molecules in one litre of gas is mind boggling, so for us to give each one a name, life story and purpose is beyond our capacity. How can that lead to fear of shamayim?
ReplyDeleteIn his letter on astrology maimonides states that all the physical elements stars etc are random in their acts and movements
ReplyDeletehttps://books.google.co.uk/books?id=U403DwAAQBAJ&pg=PA91&lpg=PA91&dq=rambam+random+events&source=bl&ots=xsel1voMZD&sig=mvXliesQZbfiRgKAxRrnpxh5SJM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjuxbq-gbLaAhUIWsAKHa-KAUgQ6AEwCnoECAEQAQ#v=onepage&q=rambam%20random%20events&f=false
Does God keep up with seven billion people, and inscribed their actions? Thoughts? Motivations?
ReplyDeleteNo,
ReplyDeleteYou have free will, but God knows what you're going to choose
Guide For The Perplexed 3:17:
ReplyDeleteMy opinion on this principle of Divine Providence I will now explain to you… In the lower or sublunary portion of the Universe Divine Providence does not extend to the individual members of species except in the case of mankind. It is only in this species that the incidents in the existence of the individual beings, their good and evil fortunes, are the result of justice, in accordance with the words, "For all His ways are judgment." But I agree with Aristotle as regards all other living beings, and à fortiori as regards plants and all the rest of earthly creatures. For I do not believe that it is through the interference of Divine Providence that a certain leaf drops [from a tree], nor do I hold that when a certain spider catches a certain fly, that this is the direct result of a special decree and will of God in that moment; it is not by a particular Divine decree that the spittle of a certain person moved, fell on a certain gnat in a certain place, and killed it; nor is it by the direct will of God that a certain fish catches and swallows a certain worm on the surface of the water. In all these cases the action is, according to my opinion, entirely due to chance, as taught by Aristotle.
The Ani Ma'amin's are an abridged version of the 13 ikkarim, and a pretty lousy one at that.
ReplyDeleteWhat I have cited is one of the basic tenets of the Jewish faith, which every Jew is obligated to believe. Nothing cited from Moreh Nevuchim can undermine that. So what you cite from Moreh Nevuchim needs to be explained and understood, but it can't be used to undermine what I have cited.
ReplyDeleteBut Hashem has the capacity.
ReplyDeleteTehillim 147:4
מוֹנֶה מִסְפָּר לַכּוֹכָבִים לְכֻלָּם שֵׁמוֹת יִקְרָא.
MN is not halacha.
ReplyDeleteThe Rambam writes in MN that there won't be animal sacrifices after the moshiach comes. That's not halacha.
I don't think he writes that at all. If you can find me the page or quotation please show me. A few years ago I was researching this question. What he says is that the sacrifices had a function to wean us off Avodah zara, (and there is a pasuk to support this). I couldn't find anywhere him saying they will be abolished. If you can find such a statement, please provide it, it would be of great interest.
ReplyDeleteYes, because He has no limitations , and can see what we call "the future".
ReplyDeletetrue.
ReplyDeleteHe has no limitations, so no "overload" from His side.
ReplyDeleteWhat a fantatsic exchange - how to reconcile אין עוד מלבדו and בחירה חפשית.
ReplyDeleteIt seems many of us, myself included, have ideas, intellectual gymnastics, attempts to reconcile the truth of both. But do we actually Know how they coexist? Really know?
Its a fantastic exploration. One reason why השגחה פרטית is easy for הקב"ה is NOT due to his limitless power. His limitless power is due to אין עוד מלבדו - meaning, all existence is a manifestation of Him. He IS everything. השגחה פרטית is an implication that existence rests within הקב"ה - he IS the place, the space - המקום.
This however does not account for בחירה חפשית, a separate volition of man, unforced in any way. Doesn't that exist of G-d as well? Where is there room for anything separate?
This is the ultimate contradiction.
The only path I have, is only G-d exist wholly and completely, in an incomprehensible supra-logic that allows this coexistence in our experience.
At the end of the day, both are true and both are absolutely true.
So why is it wrong to believe that God controls the lottery as well?
ReplyDeleteIn davning we say that Hashem controls them as He Wills
ReplyDeleteIt depends, on what you are asking. Did He set up a physical universe which works according tot he laws of physics? Is something like the lottery which is based on pulling random numbers , something you can do bitachon with? I doubt if very much. If some truck driver wins $300M on a £3 ticket, is that that because he has a zchus ? or just totally random?
ReplyDeleteAlso, what is Tohu v'Vohu in terms of randomness and chaos? Does G-d control that as well?
I am not disputing that, but in order to be practical and realistic, we have to follow Teva (not the pharmaceutical company, as they are in trouble). So when we drive, we have to focus on the road conditions, and not drift off trying to learn something at the same time.
ReplyDeleteIf you are a farmer, you have to deal with your flock, feeding , birthing, treating the sick ones, fighting the predators, etc. Do the fleas have any meaning , or the foxes and wolves? It is just part of the wild natural world we live in. Does davening deter them?
“when did emunah come to mean acceptance that G-d runs the world?”
ReplyDeleteSee https://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/21999
“For this reason, Rabbi Eliezer ben Yaakov stressed the importance of praying before eating. We must first acknowledge the true state of affairs - “Remember that it is the Eternal your God Who gives you the strength to become prosperous” (Deut. 8:18).”
“and you say to yourselves, “My own power and the might of my own hand have won this wealth for me.” Remember that it is the Lord your God who gives you the power to get wealth, in fulfillment of the covenant that He made on oath with your fathers, as is still the case. (Deuteronomy 8:17-18)
Rabbi Kook says “If, on the other hand, we are aware that everything ultimately comes from God, then we will acquire an outlook of genuine humility. How can we be proud about that which is not our own doing?”
“Assuredly, thus said the Lord God: Because you have forgotten Me and cast Me behind your back, you in turn must suffer for your wanton whoring” (Ezekiel 23:35). I say that Rabbi Kamenistky must tell Tamar to separate from her lover.
In Shema, para 2, we are told that the rains are controlled by Hashem, and that the timing of the rains is a function of our observance of the mitzvot. Also, that when we enter Israel, the nations will be driven out, but not all at once, otherwise the wild beasts will take over the land. Furthermore, I've seen once commentary that Avraham repeated a word when Hashem told him a blessing, and for this lack of faith, the exile into Egypt was the punishment.
ReplyDeleteOn our level, and in our time, when we do not have prophecy, the intellect of the righteousness of Avraham, how can we truly live up to that level of emunah and bitachon? Of course we must have emunah, but we also must act for everything, farming, work, parnassah, irrigation, etc. Even today in israel there are threats of terrorists , and also wild animals like jackals or even plant diseases which need to be treated to get export licenses to Europe for example. Avraham, Isaac and Yaakov were all farmers and they had to get their hands dirty doing the work as well.
I cannot dispute anything you say, because the Torah talks about the world being under G-d's sovereignty. But also we are no longer in Eden, we have to till the soil and work hard, with no guarantee that we will succeed.
I can't nndunderstT"V. Noone alive today can
ReplyDeleteBut it doesn't change the fact, that although there is an order to Nature, how it affects every individual person is established and controlled by God. According to his/her deeds
He did not write that.
ReplyDeleteThat statement does not appear in Rambam's perush of perek chelek in the original arabic. So you really shouldn't attribute to the Rambam.
ReplyDeletepart of nature is disorder, and the Hebrew/Torah phrase that came to mind was Tohu v'vohu.
ReplyDeleteThere are various angles we see that touch on this.
Building a Ma'akeh- parapet on a flat roof - so one interpretation is that the faller doesn't fall, i.e. he will fall but don't allow it to be from your roof.But other cases, eg the cities of refuge - here, if an axe-ident occurs, the head of an axe goes flying and kills someone, there is the right of the blood redeemer to take revenge on the rotzeach, who has to flee to a city of refuge. In this case, we do not see that the person killed was destined to do so? These are questions, as I do not have the answer.
The Navi, I think Elisha, saw a metal axe at the bottom of the river, and raised it up by his special powers. This goes against teva - unless he had a super-magnet nobody knew about .
in an incomprehensible supra-logic...
ReplyDeleteClose. It is comprehensible though. בחירה חפשית is in our experience, but not in the ultimate reality. Our experience is with a deliberate העלמה of the reality. But then again so is the idea of the existence of רע altogether. So all is a self sustaining system, containing עונש which seems to us as, and is experienced by us as רע, which we have earned by ח"וbeing .
How do you know all this? Fine you read Likutei Amarim or Nefesh hachaim , or Daat Tevunot who try to address these problems, but the Torah says that Hashem regretted making man, since his imagination is evil from his youth. Evil is real and it exists. Problem I find with Ramchal's Daas tevunot is that he tries to dreidl logic and prove that evil is really good. The navi, Yshayahu criticises those who call evil good and darkness light.
ReplyDeleteYou are misunderstanding The Ramchal's words, and it seems that you respect them enough to assume that he might be saying something and that to understand what he says might require some serious deep study. The Ramchal was an huge scholar, and deserves to be given the benefit if the above understanding that his words are deep are to be studied deeply, not superficially, and not to be lightly dismissed.
ReplyDeleteYour citation of the navi is totally not to the point. We all know that there is good and evil, ad that we are commanded to choose good and reject evil. It says that clearly in The Torah. Our discussion here is something totally different. It seems that you don't understand what's being said.
It is categorically wrong of you, and silly too, to read everything superficially and think that on the basis of that you can know better than the greatest scholars, who's words you lightly dismiss.
You are misunderstanding The Ramchal's words, and it seems that you should respect them enough to assume that he might be saying something and that to understand what he says might require some serious deep study. The Ramchal was an huge scholar, and deserves to be given the benefit if the above understanding that his words are deep are to be studied deeply, not superficially, and not to be lightly dismissed.
ReplyDeleteYour citation of the navi is totally not to the point. We all know that there is good and evil, ad that we are commanded to choose good and reject evil. It says that clearly in The Torah. Our discussion here is something totally different. It seems that you don't understand what's being said.
It is categorically wrong of you, and silly too, to read everything superficially and think that on the basis of that you can know better than the greatest scholars, who's words you lightly dismiss.
תנא דבי ר' ישמעאל כי יפול הנופל ראוי זה ליפול מששת ימי בראשית ... אלא שמגלגלין זכות ע"י זכאי וחובה ע"י חייב (שבת ל"ב.)
ReplyDeleteIf you say I am misunderstanding the Ramchal, then you need to understand them, in order to say so. Can you then provide your version of what he says?
ReplyDeleteThe Ramchal was indeed a huge scholar - am I suggesting otherwise?
In Norman Lamm's Faith and Doubt he has a chapter called Monism for moderns, and he points out the problems of taking such views, of either radical immanentism which leads to pantheism, or radical transcendence, which is the devaluation of this world or Deism, and some other fancy terms.
Even Moshe Rabbeinu was not able to see Hashem's true "face" so to speak, and we are told he could not understand the problem of evil and suffering.
The Baal haTanya and the Gra had big disputes on these matters and they attacked one another, with the Gra putting the Alter Rebbe in herem, an o course R' Chaim Volozhiner writing a response to the Tanya.
MiTZido we cannot grasp of even talk about. Nobody knows what is MItZido. there is only Tzideinu. Sorry, perhaps we are saying the same thing -
I am not saying I know better than the greatest scholars. Incidentally,t he same scholar - Ramchal in
Drech Tevunot - the Ways of reason (on Talmud study) instructs us not accept an opinion if it doesn't satisfy our intellects. So if you are rejecting this methodology, then you are falling into the same thing you are accusing me of, ie rejecting the ramchal - a major gaon and scholar.
according to your logic Rambam did not write Moreh Nevuchim!???
ReplyDeleteYou misunderstood me. There is nothing in the original arabic perush on perek chelek that can be translated as that phrase. The hebrew version of the thriteen ikarim that appear in sidurim expresses neither the letter nor spirit of the Rambam's thirteen ikarim.
ReplyDeleteNo Rabbi Eidensohn did not misunderstand you. You wrote https://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/22022
ReplyDelete“The progressive philosophy that built modern Israel is rapidly being forgotten.”
No.
You give your progressive false/lying twists to the Rambam “Indeed, Maimonides explains that the purpose of halakhah is to perfect the body and the soul. In Platonic parlance, by “well-being of the body,” he means the creation of the just state; by “well-being of the soul,” he means perfection of the mind. He continues to explain that the primary purpose of Jewish law and our main priority must be to create the just state, “because the well-being of the soul can only be obtained after that of the body has been secured” (Guide for the Perplexed, 3:27).”
What in the world does that article have to do with the comment of "Progressive"?
ReplyDeleteYohoshua asks me “What in the world does that article have to do with the comment of "Progressive"”
ReplyDelete“and you say to yourselves, “My own power and the might of my own hand have won this wealth for me.” Remember that it is the Lord your God who gives you the power to get wealth, in fulfillment of the covenant that He made on oath with your fathers, as is still the case. (Deuteronomy 8:17-18)
Progressive is Rabbi Yanklowitz who wrote that horrible article. See https://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/22037
“I wonder, if we are "rapidly losing" those young American non-Orthodox Jews to " the allure of anti-Zionist movments on college campuses," as he writes, whether that is because of "myopic" American Jewish liberals who instead of fighting the lies spread by BDS and anti-Zionist organizations, have fallen for them.”
See https://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/22033
“Rabbi Yanklowitz does not mention that in another recent article he calls for a kind of disengagement of US Jews from Israel. Accusing Israel falsely of moral failure is a way for him to try to justify that appalling suggestion.”
It seems that you have totally lost your mind. Over and out.
ReplyDeleteEvil, bad do not exist in the lexicon of לשון קודש!
ReplyDeleteרע מלשון רעוע as in unstable or shaky
Something which shakes up our confidence and experience of אין עוד מלבדו when רשעים succeed, etc.