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רבה של רמת אלחנן בבני ברק וחבר מועצת גדולי התורה של דגל התורה טוען כי אחת הסיבות לתאונות הדרכים היא העובדה שנשים נוהגות - למרות "שאין זה דרכן"
בחוברת ליקוט שיעורים וחידושים של הגאון רבי יצחק זילברשטיין רבה של רמת אלחנן בבני ברק וחבר מועצת גדולי התורה, מתפרסמת שאלה ותשובה המעוררת שיח רב בימים אלו.אברך פנה בשאלה אל הרב, האם אשתו יכולה לנהוג ברכב, והסתמך על מה שנראה לו הגיוני מבחינת צניעות. הוא אף פירט את תחושותיו שהובילו אותו למחשבה זו, ביניהן העובדה שנסיעה באוטובוס או במונית, מהוות בעיה מבחינת צניעות, ייחוד ועוד.
Brings to mind the Rambam in his hakdama to Perek Chelek, how people who interpret Chazal literally are doing the oppoisite of Ki Hi Chochmaschem Uvinaschem LeAynay HoAmim. Similarly, IMO, this ruling, which I find utterly nonsensical. It doesn't even make any sense. He even admits his proof from Pesachim is not good, because you can't compare horseriding to driving. I smell a hidden agenda. Not sure what though.
ReplyDeleteThis is ridiculous. How can he suggest that half of all the population, half of all adults and parents don't drive?
ReplyDeleteWill you tell me that my viewpoint doesn't match with an orthodox view? So be it. I always thought I lived an orthodox way of life, until I started reading all your posts on women. I don't think that was your intention, but how on earth can you correlate a normal thinking frum woman to accept what you have been posting lately.
This teshuva is based on Rav Wosner's teshuva in the main. It is not independent reasoning. Besides Rav Wosner, who exactly are the 'gedolei yisroel' who forbid?
ReplyDeleteWhy exactly is it different in chu'l? Either driving breaks tniyus or not?
What exactly does he mean by "interaction with men". There is more in publich transport, no?
At the end, he doesn't actually ossur in any event. Just writes "try to avoid".
This is definitely the fault of TV and the internet. If not for those the Chareidi community would never have discovered the Taliban existed and had a "OMG! Someone frummer that us! We have to catch up!" moment.
ReplyDeleteHe is talking specifically about Israel.In America he holds they should ask their own Rabbanim(which shouldnt be any diffrent from any shaila).
ReplyDeletegood questions. Rav Zilberstein has an unusual approach to halacha.
ReplyDeletevery solid question and I agree with your last line.
ReplyDelete. I am not trying to push an agenda of what women should do. However, I think it is important to present the reality of what various rabbis say - without apologetics.
Rav Wosner is not the only one to so pasken. Rav Menashe Klein is another. And there are others.
ReplyDeleteThe Shulchan Aruch and Rambam pasken l'halacha that women should not go outside of their homes too much. Rambam says a husband shouldn't let his wife out more than once or twice a month, though the Shulchan Aruch doesn't specify a quantity of times.
ReplyDeleteSo this ruling by Rav Zilberstein is not so radical when considering the above context within halacha.
So it's Zilber Vs. Zilberstein.
ReplyDeleteDoes anyone know what he means when he says driving does not accord with tzniyus? I can't think of a definition of tzniyus that is violated more by driving in a car than by riding a bus.
ReplyDeleteI don't understand your point. The question at hand is not how often the woman should be leaving the house. She is going to work, which presumably is every day. It is about how she should get to work.
ReplyDeleteBut radical in the context of living in the 21st century. Nobody in their right mind would consider limiting the amount of times his wife could leave the house per month nowadays. Or if he would he would have major control issues. I don't think you can extrapolate from that halacha to make a similar rule nowadays. It simply makes no sense.
ReplyDeleteThank you. My problem is that I really need some clarity here. I simply can't accept some things that have been posted here. I have always learnt that women and men are equally important but have totally different roles to play. The man- mostly on the outside, dealing with society, and the woman -mostly in the home, dealing with the family. And that their physichal and individual strengths and inborn natural talents help them in their different roles. But that sometimes necessity means that roles have to be adapted and switched. And naturally in modern times the roles have been adapted.
ReplyDeleteBut I can't correlate all this with your sources. And I really really want to.
me too!
ReplyDeletehe is claiming that when a woman drives a car people stare at her and that violates tznius
ReplyDeleteWhere does he say that - where is the word "stare" in the teshuvah?
ReplyDeleteIf she has the ability to be a licensed driver with a car at her disposal and get into a car and drive on a whim anytime she wants, she is far more likely to be outside the home far more often than if she is is not a licensed driver and doesn't drive.
ReplyDeleteOK, so all the wives of the kollel people that go out to work....how does that fit?
ReplyDeleteDo you have a mareh mokom for Rav Menashe Klein, and who are the others? How many non chasidim poskim have this issur?
ReplyDeleteWhy do you assume equality? The halacha clearly states that if a man and woman are in a life endangering situation, the halacha is to save the man first.
ReplyDeleteWe may need to adopt a less charedi approach here. Nearly all of those sources are not 'halocho', and thus they can easily be overridden, provided one can rely on other principles.
ReplyDeleteLike Rishonim on tanach frequently argue with the gemoro.
I don't think Rav Wosner is Chasidish.
ReplyDeleteMany would strongly argue that wives shouldn't be employed outside of the home. I believe Rav Avigdor Miller zt'l was a strong proponent of such.
ReplyDeletebut that issue is not mentioned in the teshuvos about driving
ReplyDeleteRav Menashe Klein (12:300): Women need to be modest while traveling and it is certain that it is not modest for women to drive. They need to constantly look at the road in all areas and also others need to stare at them to see what they do and how they move and there are times when a womens arms are uncovered while she is driving because she sticks out her hand to signal a turn. And there is much more than these things and there is much to say about it in our tmes when they go to the “country” and other trips and the women drive etc..
ReplyDeletesee his citation of Rav Wosner
ReplyDeleteThank you. That's actually very helpful.
ReplyDelete"I am not trying to push an agenda" I beg to differ
ReplyDeleteThere greatness non withstanding I think it is naive and amateurish to think women are seen more when driving! Ask any chassidishe person and they will tell u how there wife has to be all dressed up when she goes out- since she is on "show" and she is much more prone to being seen. Then they have to deal with the male taxi drivers etc. my wife has been seen by fewer people than my chassidishe friends! Another point which I think you agree with- how can you pasken on something you don't use/are familiar with! Clearly no one has used a hand single in my 9 years of driving- and other drivers are less seen and obscured than the women on the street!
ReplyDeleteYou are totally ignoring the teshuva that was written. It has nothing to do with your claims.
ReplyDeleteThis is not a halachic ruling in the conventional sense. There is no discussion of primary sources, no back and forth on the relative merits of the different options, etc. It is just some Rabbi from Bnei Brak saying what he personally thinks.
ReplyDeleteI don’t know. My wife uses indicators, not her hands. I haven't seen hand signals for 30 years.
ReplyDeleteAnd I never need to stare at other drivers to see what they do. I watch the cars and the road.
How do you know what they would strongly argue?
ReplyDeleteThis is the problem with the 'godol' mentality. Believe in 'gedolim' but select the 'gedolim' that agree with your shittos. For example, a great rav in England assisted in putting somebody in prison for many years. Immediately the 'heimishe oilam' decided he was no longer a great rav. If a 'godol' allows somebody to send his son to learn secular studies, immediately he is not 'really a godol'.
So who is really in the driving seat?
First para:
ReplyDeleteso gveret ivanka is practicing tzniyut.
NO more complaints about her tzniyiut.
I know a female car service driver in Williamsburg. Her clientele is women who wont drive, don't want s male driver. But when she's not available / busy, then . . .
ReplyDeleteIsnt that his father in law's approach?
ReplyDeleteAgain, you are writing you r own thoughts here. That is not what the teshuva is about.
ReplyDeleteDoes anyone out there stare at women driving cars (that is, the lesser portion of their body that can be seen)? Maybe I'm the only weird one who doesn't stare at women driving...
ReplyDeleteThat is because you don't think it is wrong. But all those who think it is wrong will stare at a woman driver. And because they stare at her it is prohibited! Does it sound circular?
ReplyDeleteאם תעוותוהו .... תחשבו שוטים.
ReplyDeleteWho cares? Females in America are not revamping the laws of tznius to match with Rav Wosner & Rav Zilbetstein.
ReplyDeleteSo why bother commenting?
ReplyDeleteThis new style of strict Judaism, is not something that we inherited from the pre war generation. These are new styles of martyrdom to feel more pious. It the olden days, I mean before the war, the guide was The Torah. All chumras were there only as needed as syagim for real halachos. Today chumras are here as a matter of status. They have nothing to do with Torah, and often are a hindrance to Torah observance and to a true Torah observance lifestyle.
ReplyDeleteAt least let them follow the halachas in Shulchan Aruch and we'll be 90% there.
ReplyDeleteNot sure you really understand the relevance of of chumras. This issue is not being presented as a chumra but as din.
ReplyDeleteYour ideas of the olden days needs to be broadened. In many cases before the war (I assume you mean WWII) communities standards were very low and in many places the majority of people were not observant. Standards of education were also low.
1. It is a strict interpretation of din at best.
ReplyDelete2. I"m referring to chassidishe kehillos.
It is, because the entire premise of the question was that she needs to go out and now once she is going out what is the best way to do so.
ReplyDeleteBut do Rav Zilberstein and Rav Wosner hold that way?
ReplyDeleteTzniys (for the most part) isn't a list of objective rules but standards that will differ in time and place.
ReplyDeletethat is not what Rav Wosner says. Chassidic kehilos have always had chumras - so what is your point?
ReplyDeleteOh, so does Rav Wosner say that he is interpreting the halacha leniently, then? We know there there are frum poskim who are lenient in this, such as the teshuva you brought a while back from Rav Silber. So then , the psak that assurs is what we call the strict interpretation of din, wouldn't you think?
ReplyDeleteMy point is not chumras like these. I know very well what kind kinds of chumras were and are today. It's a different hashkafa entirely. And the difference is as I explained it earlier.
Rav Wosner is explained what he thinks is the din. It is not a question of lenient or strict. If you are told you can't carry in the street on Shabbos is that lenient or strict according to you?
ReplyDeleteSorry we don't agree about chumras or kulas or even what din is
If there is a disagreement between 2 legitimate rabbis in a halacha, then the one who assurs would be considered the strict approach and the one who is matir would be considered the lenient approach. This is rather simple. But getting you to say to someone presenting a different point of view than yours, that he is making a valid point, is not simple at all.
ReplyDeletedisagree with your terminology. Are we dealing with din? or chumra or stringing together views to get a leniency?
ReplyDeleteYou haven't presented any evidence - it is just your opinion versus mine and I prefer mine.
It is bizarre logic on the part of the Posek.
ReplyDeleteAn impartial viewer would surely say that a man who wants to "check out" a female has more chance of doing so on a mixed bus than while she is seated in the driving seat of a car.
One would think he (possibly) has not spent much time walking in the streets while cars drive past.