Among other interesting comments in R. Schachter's shiur [“Da’as Torah – What are Its Parameters in non-Halachic Issues”], is that he states that a posek can give you a binding pesak concerning whom you must marry.[3] This too I find difficult, since where does a posek get the authority to tell someone whom he must marry? An individual can certainly consult with a posek for his advice in this matter, but since this consultation is done voluntarily by the potential groom, how do we go from there to a situation of pesak which binds the person asking the question?
[Subsequent to writing these words I saw R. Schachter and asked him about this matter. He reaffirmed his position, stating that whom one marries is a halakhic matter and therefore a posek can indeed tell you whom you must marry. He added that this is almost always theoretical since in order to make such a ruling the posek would need to know both the bride and groom for many years so as to be sure that what he is saying is correct. But he also insisted that if the posek does have the requisite knowledge he can indeed give a binding pesak about whom one must marry.]
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3] At 1:14:30. The Lubavitcher Rebbe had a different perspective. See Joseph Telushkin, Rebbe: The Life and Teachings of Menachem M. Schneerson, the Most Influential Rabbi in Modern History (New York, 2014), p. 189, who quotes what the Rebbe told R. Leibel Groner: "When it comes to a marriage, not I can help you, not your father can help you, not your mother can help you, not your seichel [your intellectual faculties] can help you. The only thing that can help you is your heart. If you feel for her, go ahead. If you don't do not."
This is very strange, since a) many in MO don't even follow Daas Torah (of any persuasion), b) Nobody in the mainstream Daas Torah world would make such an extreme statement regarding the powers of DT. c) In the pages of this blog RHS is not respected, especially after his involvement in the Get business.
ReplyDeleteThis is what it says in Maharil Hilchos Chanuka. It is clearly mashma from the fact that it highlights the big deal that his advice was received, that he was giving it as an Aitza and not a psak, and he got paid shadchanus for his advice like any other shadchon.
ReplyDeleteומחיית הרב לגופו הרוב היה שכר שדכנות שהיה כותב ושולח מכתב ידו בכל המדינה לזווג בתולות ונערים כי כל הארץ היו מקשיבים לו ונתקיים בו התפארותו של איוב (איוב כ"ט, כ"א - כ"ב) לי שמעו ויחלו וידמו למו עצתי אחרי דברי לא שינו ועלימו תטוף מלתי.
Part of the Daas Torah propaganda allows rabbis to have have delusions of grandeur that they can issue rulings and statements that don't have to be backed up by sources, because, after all, they themselves, who ARE intrinsically the daas of The Torah itself, need no better source than their own boich sevara, as the expression goes Sisu Mayoy. So they can be mattir an aishes ish because their boich, which is a shtick Torah, says so, and they can decide that their shiduch is a psak, even though there is no reason al pi The Torah that we have thus far, to say so, but simply because the Torah Mayan hamisgaber in their boich says so.
ReplyDeleteSure thing! We know this min haTorah and from a 'hekesh'. By a Get, in a case when the Rabbi knows neither side he can pasken that he must give a Get and if he is meshuge of toit and bedoime, he is a mekach taus and must go just as well, we are makish yetziah lebiah. If the rabbi paskens, he must accept. Min haTorah minayin, it is befeirush a pasuk, *veniashalah es piha*.
ReplyDeleteHouston, we have a problem! Suppose tomorrow they pasken, money or life from hefker BD hefker, then what? Can they use R' Akiva Eiger's shmaiss technique ad sheyomar rotze ani?
The frightening thing: what if the man is told to marry a woman who is already married. And threaten to beat the man till he marries her.
ReplyDeleteWhat is his reasoning? What are the circumstances under which he feels this way? What is the time-mark at where he says this?
ReplyDeleteAs always, it is very difficult to trust Marc Shapiro - particularly when he makes it difficult to pin down the source.
Hershel schlechter the true meshugana, he would have all of US avoid dairy if he could כבר הורה זקן
ReplyDeletethe time mark is stated in footnote 3. He is presenting Rav Schachter's own words - so why is it so difficult to pin down the source?!
ReplyDeleteJust follow the money trail and see for yourself. Why else would they muddy themselves head over heels, vechi ma lonu uletzoro hazos. Do you think they felt any pain for these self declared self made so called false agunos? Or they did anything lishmah leshem shamayim? Nothing of the kind. There are no free lunches. They all got a cut and slice of the glorious American pie in pecking order, starting from HaRav haErev ravTabachim epstein SHARYA, to the goons, the hoodlooms, the Rav lochem bnei levi's, kol tzarua vekol zov vechol asher lo noishe uposhat yodov veraglav, inshei delo ma'ali bnei Bliya'al ubnei Avlo vechol bnei hayadayim yedei eisov vesha'ar minei marin bishin SHARYA'S. It's all for the mighty Dollar and Egel hazohov. Yodeichem me'goalos bedam bnei achinu, vetsoakim eleinu min hoadomo, pchodim oyoim venoiro and we won't stand idly by. Lo sa'amod al dam re'acha!
ReplyDeleteThese scum of the earth scoundrels have recently changed course and imported a Rav yodo bakol from Israel, to free women with the second option to Get out with shoot to kill and kill for hire, sooner than later the law catches up with you too and you're well done, done for life. Good riddance. These MegaloMainiacs think they *own* you and you are their fodder at their whims, anyone is expendable as to their wishes, 've'ein loel yodecho'. Don't ever give a Pruta for them, veheim kolim me'eilehem. Show them who is Tattele! Your influence counts, use it. Gett'em all
Lehevei yadua bechol tfutzos Yisroel Vechol man deboie lemeida.
There now is a new world order, those days are over and those rabiners are *have beens*, 'shevoer aleihem haklach'. Indeed, *All* the erliche Gedoilei olam came out becherev ubechanis in *Writing* against these mechallelei Hashem, megaleh ponim baTorah shelo kehalachah, that would sell out even their mothers for a few 'graitzes'. What a Shandeh! Many of them are already sitting in Prison rotting away and hopefully many more will do the same. You cannot get away with murder, and veHoelokim Ino leyodo, one way or another you will end up in jail, veHoelokim yevakesh es hanirdaf. At the end of the day of vegonav ish umchoro... and ka'asher zomam la'asos... *Sof ganav letliya*. If you still think of doing something funny, better think again. Just like you goons ORA SHARYA and the likes hayeduim leshimtza SHARYA banded together vekoshrim bakesher in a Buffalo Stampede Wolf pack, exercising your muscles on the weak and the poor Husband's and Fathers wreaking havoc just because you think you can.... --->
FYI, there B'H' is now a counter org bent on to uproot and eradicate this shoresh poreh rosh vela'ano from amongst us and from the face of the earth. How else do you think this Epstien et al YSV got caught up in the sting, Huh? And how else was the Israeli hit man nipped in the bud??? Don't even think about it, if you know what's good for you, Mi laShem Elay will clip your wings, kappish. The feds are all over you, don't you know?
Uviarto horo mikirbecho, velo yezidun od!
The cult guy in Guyana that escaped from Montreal Ca. is doing just that, short of them being an eishes ish. He is following the original psak as is from the horses mouth to pasken having them marry each other with no questions asked from the prospectors, ad sheyomar ani rotza'at. Och und vey if they refuse, they take out the retzuat Beis Din and cattle prods kedei lekayem tzavoess R' A. Eiger veafilu beShabbos. veim bechol zois lo selchi imi and they still refuse, he forces them to drink Guyana Kool Aid, the local chamar medina mayim hameorrerim kind. ;)
ReplyDeleteehud, Would it be too much to ask that you get Hebrew language added to your device so that you type in Hebrew all of those Hebrew words. It's very hard to read your posts and while I think that they contain wisdom, I end up skipping most of what you say.
ReplyDeleteRegarding Rabbi Shapiro: as the current expert in the world today on RYYWeinberg, he is alluding to rav Weinberg's not wanting to marry his wife, he complained to the alter, but he listened to his daas torah, and married her.
ReplyDeleteThat divorce, and the Holocaust led to him becoming a very bitter man thus his title "sridei aish" and his de facto galut exile to some little town.
the problem with your analysis is that it is Rabbi Schacther who said that one is required based on the psak of a rav - not Dr. Schapiro
ReplyDeleteDaas Torah of contemporary gedolim have specifically objected to the idea of a person marrying because their rosh yeshiva or rabbi told them to do so.
I don't believe that the Seridei Aish felt that he was obligated by a psak of the Alter - who was not a posek. But rather because he respected his knowledge of human beings. Thus is was more like a psychotherapist telling his patient that so and so would be a good match.
If I recall correctly in the past one could go to a navi , but now in addition to that our choice of spouse should be logical , we rely on our feelings . I can understand a Rav pushing somebody who cannot decide to get married , but in general deciding for someone gets in his way of taking responsibility for his decision
ReplyDelete“Rav Herschel Schachter - A posek can give binding pesak concerning whom you must marry”
ReplyDeleteI read Dr. Marc Shapiro’s blog and I listen a bit to Rabbi Schachter’s lectures. I’m a YU graduate living in Israel against ORA. www.getora.org states: “ORA operates under the halachic guidance of Rabbi Hershel Schachter, Rosh Yeshiva at Rabbi Isaac Elchanan Theological Seminary (RIETS).”
I suggest that Rabbi Schachter thinks himself like Joshua and Elijah. I quote Eliphaz, the prophet son of Esau,
“Be close to Him and wholehearted; Good things will come to you thereby. Accept instruction from His mouth; Lay up His words in your heart. If you return to Shaddai you will be restored, If you banish iniquity from your tent; If you regard treasure as dirt, Ophir-gold as stones of the wadi, And Shaddai be your treasure And precious silver for you, When you seek the favor of Shaddai, And lift up your face to God, You will pray to Him, and He will listen to you, And you will pay your vows. You will decree and it will be fulfilled, And light will shine upon your affairs. When others sink low, you will say it is pride; For He saves the humble. He will deliver the guilty; He will be delivered through the cleanness of your hands.” (Job 22:21-30).
מלבי"ם איוב פרק כב
(כח) ותגזר אומר, גם מה שתיגזר בדרך גזרה, יקום לך, כי כל הטבע תהיה נכנעת תחתיך, וכמו שגזר יהושע על השמש שתידום ואליהו שאמר אם יהיה טל ומטר כי אם לפי דברי, ועל דרכיך נגה אור, מה שהיה עד עתה חשך בדרכיך, כי היו עניינים גופניים גשמיים, יהיה עתה אור, כי יהיו עניינים נעלים מחשכת החומר אל אור הנפשות וזהרם:
Wow, power corrupts (see Ora - the Tamar Epstein fiasco), but that's not enough for this megalomaniac: He wants absolute power.
ReplyDeleteMaybe droit du seigneur is next.
The alter was his posek. (While people usually go to a renowned posek, an individual can go to a personal / communal posek. Especially in the chassidish world (rebbe) or yeshivish (RY or in this cae, mashgiach.)
ReplyDeleteI was pointing out the sridei aish matter, and rabbi Shapiro's interest in this particular issue.
The Alter was not a posek. The whole point of R' Shachter is that halakhic decisions can be binding. An eitza, even from one as wise and esteemed as the Alter, cannot be binding on anyone.
ReplyDeleteI thank you for your kind words. Please forgive, I wish I can be of more help.
ReplyDeleteThis Emperor has no clothes but rules with a Makka bePatish a maaka asher lo katuv batorah. They have their own 6th Shulchan Aruch and make up things dynamically as the need arises. Money hungry and power hungry go hand in hand. They lost all their respect and integrity within the Torah World. Doesn't he know, " vayikchu lohem noshim mikol asher bochoru"? No such thing as legislating marriage through executive orders. it's all in his mind only, dimyonos vechezyonos vechalomot beAspamya. Wake up and smell the coffee.
ReplyDeleteThank you for being kind enough to share the time stamp with me. As I suspected, it is indeed taken out of context. He had spent at least 10 minutes prior - if not more - reiterating that one may not pasken without knowing all the facts. (A few hits at the favorite cavemen punching bags as well.) He had specifically mentioned that in regards to marriage. He was asked a question, and he imminently said "the question is: Is he entitled, is he allowed to give such a psak?" He never answered that question! This was all in hypothetical - that if a posek has sufficient knowledge, and he may give the psak on the the subject, then he can give a binding psak even on personal matters.
ReplyDeleteeven if the posek feels he has all the information needed - there is no halachic basis for claiming that he can tell someone that he has a halachic obligation to marry a particular person.
ReplyDeleteThere was a problem about 30 years ago of people of being told by their Rosh yeshiva or mashgiach or local rabbi that they should marry a partiuclar person. The gedolim at that time issued a statement - similar to that cited in the footnote in the name of the Lubavitcher Rebbe. Each person needs to decide himself and not be told who to marry.
There is a question of whether a parent can tell someone not to marry someone. Please show me sources where it is stated that a posek can order you to marry someone? Next you will tell me that a posek can order you to eat wheaties for breakfast and wear tennis shows
Next you will tell me that a posek can order you to eat wheaties for breakfast and wear tennis shoes
ReplyDeleteNot unless he has a serious medical condition which requires him to eat or wear these items. I'm unfamiliar with the history and how widespread the practice was. I just think that RHS is being taken out of context. I don't think that he was saying this, in any way.
One might say that RHS is not properly careful not to be taken out of context, and for his words not to be purposely quoted incorrectly - by the Forward, Shapiro etc. He has gotten himself bad press by his shvartzeh line.
But I'm curious how /why RHS of all people is saying this? Let's go back a generation, when Rav Shach ztl was the leader of the Daas Torah world. People would go to him for advice , for a brocho, yes. But there was no such think - as far as i know - of a psak to marry a particular shidduch. So I'm trying to figure out where this is coming from now? Are MO trying to create their own Daas Torah ideology? They used to reject Daas Torah altogether, and point out that even the Sanhedrin had to bring korbanot (whcih is true) if they erred.
ReplyDeleteThe alter was his personal posek. I recall the emes leyaakov says the same regarding himself (and the suslovicher before he left to slutzk.) The alter was his mesader kiddushin and he jokes how he was told to not tell him how to do a wedding.
ReplyDeleteI am not sure if we are using the term "posek" in the same manner. I highly doubt that if the Seridei Eish (or R' Yaakov) had a complex question concerning the halacha of an aguna that he would turn to the Alter for clarification.
ReplyDeleteHere is one possible explanation. Suppose one has been procrastinating shiducchim for a longer period of time and could not settle so he goes asking a shailo which is the better choice for him in a particular case. After all, there is such a thing as missing out on your zivug as time lapses by. Since there are certain criteria what to look for in a prospect al pi Torah and his quandry is which is a better or right choice, he then seeks out advice which one fits the bill better. Considering time is of the essence, the chacham might urge him to settle as to which might be the better choice at that allotted time. You just cannot wait on forever untill Prince or Princess charming comes along. A shidduch is lefi ma'asav and not something you paint up at your wishes, so if the rav knows him well enough, he can sort out whether he is only procrastinating or which is the suitable choice al pi Torah. I don't think this was meant as grabbing one of he street and shove it down one's throat.
ReplyDeleteNot sure he would have asked any halacha question to him. I spoke to someone who had asked Rav Ruderman whether the Alter was a talmid chachom. Rav Ruderman replied mestama he was.
ReplyDeleteThe Alter never let anyone see him actually learning Torah - as is detailed in Making of a Gadol
Agreed.
ReplyDelete“Rav Herschel Schachter - A posek can give binding pesak concerning whom you must marry”
ReplyDeletePacer 2/8/2017:
P 14 “A religious belief is not a defense, it’s just not a -- there’s no exemption for people who commit a crime because they believe that their religion tells them that it’s the right thing to do”
P 32 “Rabbi Jachter testified in Mr. Stimler’s case-in-chief and he testified about a number of important aspects of Halachic law that were relevant to this case having to do with the Get and what you need in order to get a Kosher Get. So there was extensive evidence put into the case that helped the Defendants.”
P 33 “And so what they did is, starting with their openings, they said these are all very devout men, out of Court, and there’s no dispute that they are devout Orthodox Jews. And they said these men who aren’t giving their wives a Get are scoundrels. Why aren’t they letting -- why aren’t they freeing their wives to remarry? Are they extorting money from them? Are they being reprehensible? And they beat that drum all the way through closings.”
The alter was his mesader kiddushin
ReplyDeleteNo. R MM Epstein was mesader. (Artscroll Reb Yaakov P. 76)
“An individual can certainly consult with a posek for his advice in this matter, but since this consultation is done voluntarily by the potential groom, how do we go from there to a situation of pesak which binds the person asking the question?”
ReplyDeleteThe matters for us to discuss:
Do Rabbi Schachter’s public positions make for divorce on demand, make for more civil divorces, make for belittling bet din rulings, make for fueling radical feminism, make for more divorces, make for more bastards, make for less choice in choosing one’s mate, make for more robbery, make for more violations of US laws, etc.